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PositiveCynicist Registered: 02/06/05 Posts: 3,546 Loc: California, Mont |
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.... FFS, sober up!
You on crack? Spanking doesn't = hitting. I'm completely and utterly against hitting children. Or much of anyone else for that matter, unless the situation mandates it (more often then not, nothing does, unless dealing with highly irrational people). I didn't advocate beating the shit out of the little mofo till they're bloody to teach them a lesson, and to not attempt to reason them and to just pull the belt off the minute they do something wrong.... It's a last resort solution. You said; "That makes you violent and abusive." - ok... No, it makes me realize that discipline and tough love is necessary at times... I'm a realist, shit happens, you can do your best, but when a kid is fully aware of the rational, reasoning, justification.... ~is fully aware of the context of the situation, yet openly is defiant just to test you, something needs to be done, and obviously being reasonable with a child that is reasonable that chooses not to use it; more then qualifies a different approach when all else fails. Reasoning with children isn't always as easy as you suggest. When you sober up, and are actually thinking, provide your solution to the scenario.Although, reasoning with children is sometimes easier then reasoning with stoned adults putting words in my mouth. -------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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jiggy Registered: 07/20/04 Posts: 7,469 Loc: Heart of Laughte |
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Those modern day translations mean nothing to me. Historians who have studied the times of the writings of the Bible in it's "original" writings found I was sharing with you.
Some sick fuck along the way twisted that message. That second link is appallingly disturbing as is anyone who supports it as its written. Did you guys read that one? I need to help swami go after the Bible thumpers even more then I do. When I once posted a wish for that book in all its translations to be burned, I meant it. Any God who would instruct the physical beatings of a child and say that you hate your child if you don't beat them is a twisted soul in my book. THANKYOU for pointing that English translation out to the Bible Thumpers here of how sick the God of the Bible is OR how sick the people who interpreted the translations and edited it were. -------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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PositiveCynicist Registered: 02/06/05 Posts: 3,546 Loc: California, Mont |
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BTW, what was the rod in terms of measurement? I'm trying to look something up for it, but can't find much on it. -------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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King of OTD Registered: 09/22/04 Posts: 1,559 Loc: PNW Last seen: 3 years, 9 months |
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To be a role model for kids you start by demonstrating that you aren't going to hit them. Then, you worry about things like how to deal with open defience. You don't have hitting things in your arsenol of how to deal with problems, and your kids won't either.
Very simple man. -------------------- "I am eternally free"
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jiggy Registered: 07/20/04 Posts: 7,469 Loc: Heart of Laughte |
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Psychoactive,
You yourself said that the state should be separate from the church. The state says, hitting children is a punishable offense. Why did you turn tail so quickly? Did you see the video tape of the mom hitting her daughter in the walmart parking lot? Her daughter was taken away from her, put into Foster care and the mom went to jail. I don't care about how someones bogus idea of god or bogus god deals with it, but I do care how the state deals with it if you get caught. I also care enough that I posted about it not even being necessary. Anyone have kids here and want to raise them without hitting them, PM me. It's very doable with excellent results. LAST RESORT=Parent lost control of themselves. -------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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MysteriousStrang ![]() Registered: 05/10/02 Posts: 901 Loc: U.S.S.A. |
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Back in the REAL world... different children respond differently to incentives and disincentives. There is also the question of mental ability to comprehend concepts. In THE REAL WORLD, children are not born with the ability to understand every word and concept that you may try to convey. When a child is too mentally immature to understand the ramifications of his/her actions sometimes the only resort is to instill a little temporary pain on the behind in order get them to behave in a proper or SAFE manner. I would much rather spank a child's rear to drive home the point of not crossing the street alone, than to bury my child because I was afraid to spank him.
Children require that they learn LIMITS. Again, IN THE REAL WORLD if a child engages in behavior that is offensive to someone and that person does not believe in refraining from inflicting pain, your child might get his head bashed in because you were too squeamish to teach him hard limits. Ninety-nine times out of one-hundred, if you show me a child who is out of control with his parents, I can show you a parent who is either too permissive or inconsistent in setting limits and applying disincentives. It is not violence, but basic behavioral conditioning which is utilized throughout the animal kingdom among higher animals which raise their young. When children have advanced to a point that they can understand explanations or examples AND act accordingly, the need for punishment disappears. If anyone is to tell me that they have never learned to alter their own behavior as a result of pain, I would say that that person is either very lucky to have avoided any mishaps or a complete fool. -------------------- "In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain
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PositiveCynicist Registered: 02/06/05 Posts: 3,546 Loc: California, Mont |
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Ok, sober up and get back to me when you have a clue as to the scenario I presented. (It's a real life example, I'll put that fact on the table)
Your method wouldn't work. What about extreme defiance?
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon. Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/26/05 11:21 PM)
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PositiveCynicist Registered: 02/06/05 Posts: 3,546 Loc: California, Mont |
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Quote: 1) I'm not advocating anything in regards to the church of state, merely pointing out something I partially agree with (in context of being too lenient will result in a shit of a kid that lacks discipline and has no respect for consequences)./sighs again. Spanking has a purpose, hitting doesn't. I'm not advocating abuse. I'm advocating a strict measure, for the worst case scenario. I am in no way implying that you should leave welts, bruises, or marks of any kind. It's merely to be used to associate a negative feeling, with a negative action in scenarios where nothing else works. Worst Case scenario = kid is openly defiant, fully aware of the situation, and telling you that your restrictions are ineffectual... and proves it by testing you to prove that .LAST RESORT = Parent lost control over their children.... Children need a degree of instruction, and control, till they can prove otherwise, and are self-sufficient in their actions. -------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon. Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/26/05 11:28 PM)
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jiggy Registered: 07/20/04 Posts: 7,469 Loc: Heart of Laughte |
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There are other ways to do that Auto. My daughter NEVER ran out into the street or parking lot. She clung close to me and stayed on side walks.
All I had to do was this- Explain to her that she is to small for moving cars to see her and that she could get hit and severely injured or killed. Without a lot of graphic detail, she was able to understand that she did not want to experience that because she loves herself and life. I also always instructed her to stay on the side walk and next to me when crossing parking lots and streets. I repeated this every time we got out of the car or left a shop. Because I had her trust in me earned, she listened. I suppose the difficult part for parents is earning their trust and respect because that can't follow through and reason using love and respect for the self and others as a base. Some screwy along the way gave them the bright idea to use fear and ignorance instead as a base. Add laziness and consistency goes out the window too and there you have your child who doesn't listen well. The parent who raises a kid to ignorantly disobey them I think still needs parenting themselves. That would be the result of the arrested development that occurred when they were being traumatized as children.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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PositiveCynicist Registered: 02/06/05 Posts: 3,546 Loc: California, Mont |
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"The parent who raises a kid to ignorantly disobey them I think still needs parenting themselves."
Behavior isn't always a result of parenting, regardless of the methods employed; all forms of punishments don't always work, and in some cases they further exacerbate the individuals nature. -------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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jiggy Registered: 07/20/04 Posts: 7,469 Loc: Heart of Laughte |
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Everyone here dissagreeing with even spanking also disagrees with being over lenient and giving kids too much control. if that is your ONLY argument then we are all talking for nothing because we all agree on that.
A child will not openly challenge a parent when they already know how far they can push. Did you read what i wrote about the importnce of follow through on your word and consistancy from day one? I gave an example of the kid throwing sand at the park. Parents like the one described, and they are a dime a dozen, raise kids who challenge them all of the time. The kis get hit because the parents are to lazy to set guidelines, consequences ahead of time and to follow through with them consistantly. Did you see what my example consequence was? Leave playing with friends at the park and the removal of the icecream treat the kid was asking for all day. NO HITTING required. If they have learned without fail that you mean what you say, they will listen. -------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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PositiveCynicist Registered: 02/06/05 Posts: 3,546 Loc: California, Mont |
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Unless they just like to challenge notions to see the consequences of it right?
I have to entertain myself somehow ![]() I've read everything you posted. The thing is, that you aren't getting that everything was given to a "t" in terms of laying down the ground rules, explanations, subsequent punishments.... all order and rules were established. I merely broke the rules because I could and to push the metaphorical red button as it was there. Tbh I feel the sameway about consequences today, I don't care for them and they really don't effect me. If it can affect my will, it can affect me... the only thing that can affect my will is my willingness to allow it to be affected. -------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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there Registered: 10/05/02 Posts: 1,118 Loc: dark side of ter |
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Thank you Jiggy........... What I apply to my students I've (we've) applied to my (our) kids...and they are damn impressive kids. My oldest is being inducted into the National Honor Society and I am DAMN PROUD
-------------------- Just a little nervous from the fall.
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jiggy Registered: 07/20/04 Posts: 7,469 Loc: Heart of Laughte |
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Well, I would have to write a book to cover it in detail and give lots of examples. I am generalising. Yes, laying the ground work to prevent the problems in the first place is the key. Prevention is 90% of the method.
I too like you pushed and challenged because my mom was an inconsistant push over and my dads threats of hitting me went ignored once I became densensitised to it. I am having to reparent myself as an adult because I never had good parenting. It does start with loving yourself, forgiving the past and knowing you deserved better and treating yourself in kind with that. :hugs: Hmmmmmm what do consequences mean to me now? I'm still quick to the fuck you and fuck off if someone tries to lay a power trip on me. I don't do people laying authority trips on me. I am a self led self authority type that seeks assistance in weak areas, but still makes the final call for myself. Maybe that was a strength that came out of my f'd up upbringing and maybe its also why I am good at pushing limits that serve me well now in being able to expand upon my reality and experiences and what I can make possible for myself. Uhhhhh thanks mom and dad. ![]() Between me and me, my motivation for making choices comes from self love and self respect. I raise my daughter to use self love and self respect as her motivator for making choices, not fear or self ignorance. What good is doing something if it is only done out of fear of punishment? Its hollow, shallow and meaningless. Bed time for this bozo!
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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MysteriousStrang ![]() Registered: 05/10/02 Posts: 901 Loc: U.S.S.A. |
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Quote: So what? Do you think all children are identical emotional and mental copies of your girl? I have three children, they are each different. Each child has his or her own personality. Not all children are prone to cling, some are congenital explorers and experimenters, prone to test every limit put in front of them. I'll repeat what I said previously, different children respond differently to incentives and disincentives. What works for one child may not work for another. Quote: Was she able to immediately comprehend this at birth? I'll repeat. There is also the question of mental ability to comprehend concepts. In THE REAL WORLD, children are not born with the ability to understand every word and concept that you may try to convey. When a child is too mentally immature to understand the ramifications of his/her actions sometimes the only resort is to instill a little temporary pain on the behind in order get them to behave in a proper or SAFE manner. Do all children listen AND understand when their parents explain things? Even assuming a child has both listened and understood, what is to say that a child won't be distracted and think about something else, ignoring a previous admonishment? What if the child is extremely headstrong? What works for one child may not work for another. Quote: I'll reiterate. Your child IS NOT identical to all other children. Each one is unique in their combination of traits and strengths and weaknesses of traits. What works for one child may not work for another. How about you? Have you ever learned to alter your own behavior as a result of pain? Have you ever taken an action that resulted in negative consequences, causing you to remember not to engage in that action in the same way again or not at all? Do you think that this method of learning is useless for those possessed of the most immature mental states? -------------------- "In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination." -- Mark Twain
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Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 11 days |
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I must say, this has been a very interesting and thought provoking thread, full of content.
![]() This whole subject is very dynamic and full of intricate details, considering the very nature of a human being's progressive interactions with the world. A human being develops as a result of its interactions, which determines how this human being thinks and makes decisions on how to interact in the next moment. They centrum of a human's life and the development of that life is interaction. A parent has the oppurtunity to play an integral role in the development of a child, but it is a lesser role as compared to the role of the child themself. It is the child who is the one experiencing their life, and it is the child who begins to develop a mind that they will (hopefully ) use to further guide that experience and make choices as how they will interact with their environment. The central topic here is whether or not it is necessary to inflict a small amount of physical, painful sensation on a child in order to influence the way in which the child acts. Obviously, it is a complex topic, and there isn't any easy answer - an easy, simple answer belies the sheer complexity and multi-faceted aspects of the development of a life. Personally, I can envision situations where it definitely might be necessary. The same people in this thread that suggest that providing for the experience of physical pain is never an option will also suggest options, such as putting the child in "time-out", or by removing the privledge of playing with a favored toy, etc. etc. etc.... I see no conceptual difference between these options and that of spanking. Both produce the sensation of pain, regardless of whether it is physical or mental. Obviously, in early stages of development, children will not have the understanding that comes with experience to comprehend complex situations. The majority of adults are not capable of foreseeing the far-reaching effects that they cause by their actions (as they are themselves still in early stages of mental development ), and children actually have a tangible excuse. Children are instilled with a temporary framework to ensure that they will survive long enough to be in a position where they can comprehend. For most people, these temporary modes of thought processes are never outgrown.... Anyways, ja, creating a pain sensation as a response to certain actions, in an attempt to manipulate the child to not act in that manner again, creates for the child a very limited in awareness mode of thinking. It should only be used when absolutely necessary because if the associations between certain thoughts/actions and subsequent reward or punishment become too strong, the child will be stuck with this programming, and it will become less possible for the child to enter higher states of consciousness when they are of enough experience to begin doing so. Essentially, the programming should not be so reinforced that it is impossible to change that programming later on, or so that the programming does not permanently effect the manner in which the child perceives reality. Our minds and our thought processes, our mind's structure need to be dynamic and open to change as possible.... Ja, I don't know where I am going with this. I obviously have no definite point to add to this, I am simply texturizing the thread and adding to its vibrancy... I just don't see the whole topic as having some right/wrong quality, as in, where spanking is never to happen or anything like that... Every interaction adds to the experience of life, and these first interactions initate all others. Any experience of pain (regardless of whether it is inflicted physically or mentally - as if there is a real difference in terms of this subject ) will bring with it positive and negative ramifications. Interesting side note: Its only through the experience of suffering that it is possible to transcend suffering altogether... or something... ![]() Other interesting side note: I have a very early memory of taking packages of crackers and munching the hell out of them, not actually eating them, just crunching them up with my mouth and making a huge ass mess, and I believe I had a fork thrown at me... or perhaps they are unrelated incidents, as they both happened when I was really young... Anyways, I certainly stopped doing it, and regardless of whether or not it was the correct or preferred way for one to go about interacting with me as a result (as if there is any one way to interact ), I still stopped acting in that way and eventually came to understand exactly all the dynamics of the situation..... ![]() ![]() Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Nakedly Open Registered: 03/02/05 Posts: 931 Loc: The Womb of Love Last seen: 18 years, 6 months |
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I feel that usually if you explain to a child that knowone likes to suffer, and that certain actions that they carry out have a painful effect on others, the child, being the open spongne that it is will naturally develop his/her own conception of morality which will far outway any pain induced idea of right or wrong, becuase when you inficlt pain upon a child you are cuasing that child to associate his actions with his/her 'own' mental/physical suffering and not that of others, which goes a little something along the lines of "If I do this then I will recive pain" instead of "If I do this, then it causes others pain, and i know what pain feels like so i dont wish it upon others". The spanking method is just another link its devlopment of selfishness, ignorance and negative habit patterns and attitudes. And of course if the child is travelling in this direction by the time it reaches puberty all of these aspects ill be greatly exaggerated as its emotional capacities develop and grow causing the common teenage rebellion.
There isNEVER any need to inflict suffering upion a child for misbehaviour, usuaslly, if you parenting skills are good then all you will need to do is explain the situation in terms of cause and effect and the child will automaticly see the error of his/her ways, allowing for a compassionate expansion of the childs mind that will hopefully continue to develop rapidly from puberty into adulthood. -------------------- All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!
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Sexy.Butt.McDanger Registered: 03/12/02 Posts: 24,855 Loc: Pandurn Last seen: 1 year, 11 days |
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In my experience, not very many children, at such a young age, possess conceptualization skills adequate enough to understand such. Eventually, they will be capable of understanding perfectly, but there are certain situations where it might be necessary to associate pain with certain actions as to avoid situations where their life will be threatened. These associations will later be transcended, just as a bird will be thrown from its nest...
Obviously, every single person in this thread has justified using pain to influence a child's actions. The discrepancy is if physical pain in this regard is ever necessary. Perhaps sometimes it is. *shrugs* ![]() Peace.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Nakedly Open Registered: 03/02/05 Posts: 931 Loc: The Womb of Love Last seen: 18 years, 6 months |
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In my experience almost all of the young children i have come accorss posses an intuition and openess that seems to have been lost in most adults. Children are like sponnes and you would be supriesed at the breadth of the concepts they can grasp (of course this depends on whether the parents have made them ADD sugar junkies yet). If you communicate with a child on an equal level, i think you would be pleasantly suprised how intuitve and intelleigent they are.
Of course they do not yet possess the linguistic skills that us adults have developed over our time on this planet, but basic communciation of an intuitve nature communicated on an equal and linguisticly rudemenstary level can brigde the seemilngy huge gap in "maturity" to come to some common understanding. Children are underrated, taken for granted as human beings, and bumped, shoved, prodeded and pulled into the conditioned misery we call "adulthood". All this can be changed if we ourselves can open up and communciate on an equal level as human beings with our children instead of treating them as second class citizens or prehuman beings as if they are not whole human beings, then maybe we can cut the chain of cause and effect that propells us to try to fill the void and develop some enlightened beings instead of another generation of human robots. Its exactly becuse we were rasied in the manner stated above, that we are so fucked up as a specicies. It all relates back to how we we programmed as children. Do we really want to repeat our parents mistakes? The whole reincarnation recongnition in Tibet is'nt something mystical like they make it out to be. The child from the beginning is cut from his/her programming and then undergoes a training so precise and rigourous that the child wakes up very early to his/her enligthened nature. The the child is then stabilized in this state and later assumes the role of his/her predecsor. Whether you belive in reincarnation or not its quite clear that the child had no choice other than to become an enlightened being from the very beginning. Im not saying that this is what we should do. But if we can at least treat a child with equal respect as a fellow human being, and teach the child well about openess, equality, repsect and personal responsability then at least he/she will have a better chancce at turning out to be at least a good human being if not an awakened one.
-------------------- All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly! Edited by egghead1 (04/27/05 12:13 PM)
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jiggy Registered: 07/20/04 Posts: 7,469 Loc: Heart of Laughte |
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Auto,
It's not about my daughter being different. Give me anyones kids who has a listening problem and within minutes to hours, I can have them listening to me. It's not rocket science, just uncommon common sense. Go back to the header here and look at what it says. You said , "what about when they are babies?" Babies do not walk yet and cannot run out into streets and parking lots. Once she started walking, every time we were near one, I repeated the safety instructions and why I gave them. Every.........Time until I saw she started saying back to me, "Mom, I know and I don't want to get hit by a car." It takes time attention and energy to use the methods. It's about methods that are proven and work on any child. The advocates for saying there is another way to raise self disciplined children without the need to hit them are familiar with the methods out there being used, by child psychologists and even a teacher here who handles what? 22 different kids a year and says they work on all and are widely used. Your argument aout my one child being different is absolutely MUTE regarding disccsuions of methids for non hitting that work. You don't have a case here auto for saying even spanking is the only and best way. Your way is old school and we all know it's way in theory or lived under it. You are not sharing with us anything new. We all know how the induction of physical pain works as a deterant to manipulate and control people. Its flawed. Don't talk to me like I just fell off a trunip truck. I took mental notes all through my own uprbringing, spent 10 years studying child development before I had my daughter and continue to and have 8 years under my belt with her and about 25 desling with other peoples kids as a care taker either through teen age baby stitting, my nephews or play dates with my daughters friends. This is the MOST important topic to me on the planet-child rearing. I am a stay at home mom who home shools. I was hit as a kid and you will NEVER get me to agree with you that it is the best or only way to go because I already proved that wrong to myself in my own experience. You can use pain and maybe get short term results until desensitization kicks in followed by rebellion and power struggles and or withdrawal and depression. WHY do that if their are others way and you don't have to, to get even better result without the negative side effects of using pain? To be honest, I can no even imagine laying a finger on my child and being the cause of hurting her and making her afraid of me. It's my job to protect her from be harmed. If you think you can convince me thats its the only best way, you are so wasting your time. Psychoactive was open to understanding more so I will continue, I gave an example of setting guidelines and giving fair warning of an imposed consequence and the importance of consistent follow through for raising children to listen without the need to hit. I said the methods are mostly used for prevention and setting up the trust and respect that keeps you from even having to enforce the consequence most of the time because, they will usually listen in the first place. Here is an example of how to establish trust and respect for your judgment in making decisions for them would go. Parents have many opportunities a day for working at establishing this sort of relationship and it takes, time, energy, patience and your attention. My daughter was around 4 and one day asked me if she could cut her dolls hair. I asked her why she wanted to. She said she thought she had to much hair and would look prettier if it was cut. I said to her, "you know, I felt the same way about a doll I had when I was around your age and I cut her hair (relating to her feelings and letting her know, I understand and hear her) I told her that I cut the dolls hair and immediately thought she looked ugly. I ruined her and didn't want to play with her anymore. She was my favorite and my parents couldn't afford another. It was a mistake that I learned from and never did it again or wanted to. Then she said, "Well, I think Chloe will be prettier and I want to cut her hair, can I?" I laughed realizing this was one of those things she had to learn and experience for herself to get it out of her system and it wasn't a life or death issue. (Choose you battles wisely and say the big guns for the life and death issues) So I said this," She is YOUR doll and you can do with her what you want (giving her guided control over things of her own-kids need this to learn responsibility, cause and effect consequence and how to use their own power instead of always being told what to do by another power.) I said to her, " I will not tell you that you cannot, but that I think you will not like the results when you are done like I didn't and I won't go buy you another doll if you don't. I also told her that under no circumstances is she ever allowed to cut the hair of any one Else's dolls but her own. And we had yet another small chat about respecting other peoples property and feelings. So she cut the dolls hair. Not long after she asked me if we could go buy a new Chloe. I laughed. I said, "what? she looked ugly and you don't want to play with her anymore right?" She mumbled a yeah. Then I asked, "Do you now see that I did not advise against it because I didn't understand your feelings or wanted to be mean but because I knew that would probably happen? Do you see how you can trust in my judgment? She concurred. Then I said to her, "I told you that if you didn't and didn't like it, I wasn't' going to buy you a new one ad you said you understood that and agreed to the deal." I said to her, you can use your allowance money and I will take you to get a new one or you can wait a few months for Christmas to ask for a new one instead of something else. She said, "Well, I have been saving my allowance for something else I really want. I guess I will wait till Christmas." Here was now an opportunity for me to be consistent with the follow through of the consequence I set up, give her a chance to take responsibility for her actions, reinforce her trust in my judgment and give her use of her own power again to make a corrective decision with it. She never cut a dolls hair again and learned a lot from that experience. She was given leeway under guidance. Even though I was ultimately in control, she was allowed to be in control of herself and doll under guidance. Because I gave her the use of her power and control, she had nothing to power struggle with me over-NOTHING. There was never a power struggle. A parent who spoils, over indulges and gives to much unguided leeway, would've just said "sure, go ahead. You want a new one now? Okay, lets go by it." They are out there and their kids have em by the balls and they turn into spoiled brat terrors.A control freak parent who doesn't relate to or respect their kids would've said "NO, don't you dare!." And then yank the scissors away. That kid would have stewed with that one. After all, it is their toy isn't it? Kids need to feel a sense of ownership over some things. The kid would've entertained thoughts of their parent being mean and not understanding of them or never letting them do what they want. They probably would've stewed over it. They may have repressed all of those bad feelings and if the scenario repeats, you may create a kid who ends up depressed, withdrawn and uncaring about life. This parenting style creates the kid who may rebel and say, "you can't tell me what to do" and cut it anyway and then get their ass beat for it. Or, they may say, "okay, I'll show him his way. When he asks me to clean my room or eat my beans or be nice to aunt sally tomorrow I will say NO to him and see how he likes it." The power struggle will just ensue somewhere until the kid feels like they have use and control of some. Another type of common scenery is where the kid may have learned from their parents to throw a red faced screaming temper tantrum until they get their way or exhaust themselves. A $9.99 doll being ruined to afford her that whole learning experience was WELL worth it. There was one other time I can recall where she chose against my guidance and she was right to do it from hindsight. I'm not perfect or always packed with energy and patience to perfectly deal with every moment of the days, but I give it my all and have made some bad calls and we learn and laugh about them same as from hers. She was 3,had just gotten a new toy and brought it to the club house pool. Another girl was there and asked to play with it. Arielle always shred and was taught to share. This one time, she didn't. I was mortified. I aid to her, "Arielle, you know that if you bring toys out to public places that you are expected to share them with other kids because you know that's the considerate thing to do. You don't like it when other kids don't share their toys right? She was quiet. I said to her, "It's yours and you don';t have to share it, but if you won't it goes back in the pool bag and NO One plays with it or we go home where you can play with it by yourself. She said without hesitation." Lets go home" She loooooooooooooves the pool. I was shocked. I realized later that that toy was 10 minutes new and she hadn't even had a chance to bond with it yet. My bad and I learned that brand new toys don't go out of the house until she is willing to share them. I apologized to her later for how it all went down and she beamed at realizing I finally understood. I should've said, "If you bring this brand new toy to the pool, you will have to share it. Are you willing too or do you want to stay home and play with it alone for a while." Live and learn. We don't know it all as parents and make mistakes too. Kids need to see that and how we also learn and grow from and with them. I'm glad to be reading the arguments here for hitting because the ones who are , are giving me so much fuel to get my book going again. Thanks! I forget how many out there still think its the only way. -------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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ok... No, it makes me realize that discipline and tough love is necessary at times... I'm a realist, shit happens, you can do your best, but when a kid is fully aware of the rational, reasoning, justification.... ~is fully aware of the context of the situation, yet openly is defiant just to test you, something needs to be done, and obviously being reasonable with a child that is reasonable that chooses not to use it; more then qualifies a different approach when all else fails. Reasoning with children isn't always as easy as you suggest. When you sober up, and are actually thinking, provide your solution to the scenario.
I'm not advocating anything in regards to the church of state, merely pointing out something I partially agree with (in context of being too lenient will result in a shit of a kid that lacks discipline and has no respect for consequences).
.
That would be the result of the arrested development that occurred when they were being traumatized as children.


) use to further guide that experience and make choices as how they will interact with their environment.
), and children actually have a tangible excuse.


