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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Relating to Children
    #4093237 - 04/24/05 09:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Where I work, at a public school, I am responsible for maintaining a network of some 70 computers. I also provide instuctional support to the faculty and students. Often children (7th and 8th graders) approach me and profess an interest in computers or hacking. I usually indulge their interest by discussing these things enthusiastically with them and point them to reliable sources of information on these subjects. I tend to deal with children by treating them as responsible humans. I have found that with my own children treating them as responsible people, instead of "children" has produced 2 responsible children and one responsible adult so far. So, I will discuss things with them on equal ground...not as an all knowing adult. A few teachers at this school have indicated their disaproval of this method. They feel that an adult should order the children around in a condescending, authoritarian manner, and that what they say is unimportant. I do maintain a sense of authority with my bearing, but I also try to relate to the child as if they were an adult. I have very few discipline problems with the children, and several known "problem children" get along with me just fine. What do you guys think about this. How should an adult relate to children?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Registered: 02/06/05
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Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4093311 - 04/24/05 09:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup: Give them as much authority over a situation as they can handle. I've a little sister that I sometimes have to watch, I make the rules simple;

1) Don't make a mess.
2) Don't whine.
3) Do whatever the hell you want.

It works fairly well provided all things are met, and she exercises a little common sense.

As long as a child is aware of things that could be hazardous, and knows about the consequences regarding it... it isn't that big a deal. (stove, guns, knives, drugs, etc...)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4093337 - 04/24/05 09:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Duh, Ordering anyone around in a consending and athoritarian  manner is bound to fail. You made that one too easy. Can you ask a harder one. :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4093340 - 04/24/05 09:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Amen to that brother. Reminds of me a time I was volunteering in my daughters classroom when she was trying out the public school here last year.

Each of the moms were running activity stations the kids were rotating around in groups. Mine was to read a story from a giant book up on an easel with a big pointing stick. The kids were suppose to sit still and listen to me read the story, were my instructions. Thbbbbbbbbbbbbbb

As long as the stayed in our area, I let them move around (wiggle and fidget) and got glares of disapproval from the other moms and teacher. Thbbbbbbb In about 20 seconds, I realized not all of them were paying attention to me reading. I thought, "Of course not because I am basically talking AT them through a story they can't relate to"

So, Every 5 or so sentences, I started asking them questions to help them to relate and to pull them in to the story. I made their opinions and stories relative to the story matter. In a snap, they were all glued and paying attention to me then because they new I was paying attention to them and was interested in them as well.

The glares of disapproval grew stronger at me from the other moms and teacher. Thbbbbbbbbbbbbbb. Then, the kids wanted to practice taking turns reading instead of me so I let them. ( I don't need the practice, they do) They were all loving life and REALLY into the story now. We were all having an interactive ball.

Now, the looks could've killed. But guess what?

When it came time to quiet down and sit still before the kids could move to the next station, MY groups were ALWAYS the first ready, and the only ready on time. WHY? I had earned their respect in that ten minutes by giving them some use of their power and when I asked them to sit quiet and still so they could go to the next station, they easily listened to me with respect.

WELL, of course the other moms and teacher noticed my groups were always quiet and still at shift times when theirs were absolutely out of their control. Hahahaha, boy the feathers were ruffled as the glares turned into faces of perplexed confusion because they had nothin on me. Hahahahahaha

I never let my group get out of control, I just shifted the power giving the kids control of themselves and we as a group were always in control of ourselves and it was beautiful.

Yes, Hue, it's not cool to pull that authoritarian control freak BS on kids and it's counter productive to.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Icelander]
    #4093363 - 04/24/05 09:59 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It seems like a no brainer to me as well, but some of the teachers (just a few) really seem to be offended by this...so I thought I would ask. Of course I am slanting it in my favor in reporting this. My persoanl opinion IS reflected.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4093371 - 04/24/05 10:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I tend to deal with children by treating them as responsible humans. :thumbup:

Too bad this idea is lost on many parents and other adults.

I find it appalling that some parents prefer to inflict violence (hit) children to get them to behave rather than talk to them. A child raised in love, without violence, will correct his behavior when he realizes he's disappointed the parent he loves; there's no need for violence.

If you think hitting a defenseless child to correct a behavior problem is the way to go, then you should be willing to take a few lashings by whip when you're caught speeding.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/24/05 10:09 PM)

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4093380 - 04/24/05 10:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Looks like you can relate to the Tao:

"If you want to be a great leader,
you must learn to follow the Tao.
Stop trying to control.
Let go of fixed plans and concepts,
and the world will govern itself."

I try to live by this as much as I am able.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Icelander]
    #4093385 - 04/24/05 10:04 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Duh, Ordering anyone around in a consending and athoritarian  manner is bound to fail. You made that one too easy. Can you ask a harder one. :grin:




If its a no brainer then you are saying many to most parents and teachers have no brains.

I prefer to think of it as uncommon common sense. :wink:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4093392 - 04/24/05 10:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Good one.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4093410 - 04/24/05 10:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Duh, Ordering anyone around in a consending and athoritarian  manner is bound to fail. You made that one too easy. Can you ask a harder one. :grin:




If its a no brainer then you are saying many to most parents and teachers have no brains.  :wink:




Yeah, That's pretty much how it seems. Not all but most. Definitely!


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinenunciate
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4093416 - 04/24/05 10:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Fight the power!  Resist and multiply!  :handth:


--------------------
I am the devil and I am just like you

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4093708 - 04/24/05 11:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Duh, Ordering anyone around in a consending and athoritarian  manner is bound to fail. You made that one too easy. Can you ask a harder one. :grin:




If its a no brainer then you are saying many to most parents and teachers have no brains.

I prefer to think of it as uncommon common sense. :wink:




You're truly becoming outsane :smile:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineDroz
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4093834 - 04/24/05 11:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Adults should relate to children as any older person should, one with more experience can teach children many things. You can fill their heads with crap, like some parents do. Or you can filld there heads with more crap like everyone does.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4094376 - 04/25/05 07:55 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hue you basically pinned the tail on my opinions of how to raise a child! Awesome! :smile:

My parents, when I was a baby, decided they wouldn't use that "baby voice" to talk to me that most parents used with their babies. Instead they spoke to me, before I could speak, as if they were speaking to an adult. As a result I could string simple sentences together well before most children learn to do so (my mom used to talk about how I would surprise people by asking "how are you today?" when they would bend down and coo-coo into my stroller/crib).

The key, I think, was that by talking as normal people do I was able to pick it up quicker and almost skip over the whole "baby-speech" phase entirely. This, I hope, is much the same as what you are doing with your children! By treating them as responsible humans, you are giving them a strong indication as to what a responsible human is. Thus they can pick up those skills far quicker than if you treated them as a child.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: trendal]
    #4095919 - 04/25/05 04:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I sometimes think it's a good idea to give them a little more than I think they can handle and then keep an eye on them to make sure they don't fuck up too badly. That way they won't be limited by my expectations but they will still be safe. They'll probably learn more that way too.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: trendal]
    #4095935 - 04/25/05 04:16 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hue you basically pinned the tail on my opinions

your opinions = donkey's hind end? (sorry, but you set yourself up there!)  :grin:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineSmallworlds
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Swami]
    #4095949 - 04/25/05 04:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Hue you basically pinned the tail on my opinions

your opinions = donkey's hind end? (sorry, but you set yourself up there!)  :grin:




:lol:


--------------------
Through the excercise of patience, one may learn humility..

Smoke plenty of green, and eat fungus!!!!
:peace::heart::slomo::gd_icon::gd_icon::gd_icon::slomo:


Trip Report

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: trendal]
    #4095971 - 04/25/05 04:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have a friend who is a physics teacher at a University. He decided to not dumb down his speach for his children. Needless to say his vocabulary is technical...almost needlessly so. When his kid was 4 he sounded like a professor. It was cool...but very weird. I was never concious of using baby-talk...I guess we just talked normal to them. They all talked and read a little early.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4096019 - 04/25/05 04:32 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Don't get me wrong...spanking (not abuse) can have a place as a last resort punishment. As a young parent I relied on it a bit too much (that is what my parents did), and I hit the point where it did not work. My kids thought it was no biggie...so I had to get creative. I guess the last spanking I handed out was over 10 years ago. I am also demanding of them. If they wish to maintain their privileges (movies, computer, social life) they have to meet a high academic and behavioral standard. So, while I can be strict, I never say "Just because" I always have a rational explanation for my actions. I will also hear a rebuttal provided some respect is shown.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4096192 - 04/25/05 05:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

:handth: Sounds like you're a damn good parent to me.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineGomp
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4096213 - 04/25/05 05:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

children are childish.. :smile:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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OfflineFrog
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4097686 - 04/25/05 11:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I usually indulge their interest by discussing these things enthusiastically with them and point them to reliable sources of information on these subjects.




It's great that you do this, with ALL the children. You never know with which child you are going to strike a chord and send them into the profession that has been dictated to them, as explained by Emerson in one of his essays on how we are all here to do something, if we just pay attention to the signs.

Quote:

I tend to deal with children by treating them as responsible humans. I have found that with my own children treating them as responsible people, instead of "children" has produced 2 responsible children and one responsible adult so far. So, I will discuss things with them on equal ground...not as an all knowing adult.




I do the same thing. Actually, I don't know how to talk down to children. I have always spoken to my children as if they could understand me. I would even use "big" words, even though they couldn't understand them, but they would always ask, "What does that word mean?

My 3rd oldest child, a boy who is now 17, had such a good vocabulary by the time he was 3 years old. I remember when my then-boyfriend first came over to my apartment to take me out and my 3-year old answered the door and said, "Hi, Michael, come on in and have a conversation."

Kids are smart, and they want to learn.

Quote:

A few teachers at this school have indicated their disaproval of this method. They feel that an adult should order the children around in a condescending, authoritarian manner, and that what they say is unimportant. I do maintain a sense of authority with my bearing, but I also try to relate to the child as if they were an adult. I have very few discipline problems with the children, and several known "problem children" get along with me just fine. What do you guys think about this. How should an adult relate to children?




I think you are handling kids perfectly. Don't let the other adults cause you to stray from what seems to be working for you. Treat the kids as if they were responsible people, and they will react in kind.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4097717 - 04/25/05 11:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Don't get me wrong...spanking (not abuse) can have a place as a last resort punishment.

Would you accept a change in the traffic laws such that if you get caught speeding, the penalty is lashing by whip? If not, then what argument do you use to justify hitting a misbehaving child, and why doesn't that argument apply to you?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4097734 - 04/25/05 11:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Establishing Authority (who's boss)... IMO it's necessary to a degree; despite it not being the most rational approach, but it's the same with hitting a dog on the nose for biting... or rubbing their nose in a fresh pile of shit made on the carpet.

It shows that their is a direct consequence for bad behavior, once the fact is established, it needn't be carried on.

Why can't you just talk to your kids? Why can't we all just talk sense into the majority of the prison population? Their needs to be a punishment to fit the crime.

I was raised with spanking when I was a child, so I do realize the feelings associated with it. I suppose it also deals with the individual though. I can honestly say that I deserved most of my spankings (not a guilt trip or anything), as I was, and still am an unruly asshole at times :smirk:... but I've a greater sense of rationality to back up my actions now. 

Just my $0.02.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleJellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4097786 - 04/25/05 11:54 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think your approach is highly commendable. I use it myself in my dealings with children.

By all means continue to treat the children as responsible humans and maybe those so called "adults" you work with will grow up and adopt your teaching methods one day. (At least the ones whose true goal is to teach rather than indulge in a power trip. Those can rarely be taught).


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4097806 - 04/26/05 12:01 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

but it's the same with hitting a dog on the nose for biting

No it's not the same. Children can spoken with, dogs cannot. Children can have privileges removed to encourage discipline, dogs cannot.

This whole thread is about relating to children as adults. If a child can be hit to enforce discipline, than so can an adult, but few adults who spank would agree to being hit as a form of penalty for speeding.

It shows that their is a direct consequence for bad behavior

So does locking up the X-Box and without violence.

Their needs to be a punishment to fit the crime.

Yes, but that punishment doesn't have to take the form of violence.

I can honestly say that I deserved most of my spankings

Would you deserve a whipping for speeding? If not, then I ask again: why does it go for a child but not for an adult?

Children who are hit don't learn discipline; they learn fear of retribution. The same result occurs (child behaves) but for the wrong reason. And in the long run, it teaches the child only that might makes right.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/26/05 10:49 AM)

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4097871 - 04/26/05 12:29 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
but it's the same with hitting a dog on the nose for biting

1) No it's not the same. Children can be spoken with, dogs cannot. Children can have privileges removed to encourage discipline, dogs cannot.

This whole thread is about relating to children as adults. If an child can be hit to enforce discipline, than so can an adult, but few adults who spank would agree to being hit as a form of penalty for speeding.

It shows that their is a direct consequence for bad behavior

2) So does locking up the X-Box and without violence.

Their needs to be a punishment to fit the crime.

3) Yes, but that punishment doesn't have to take the form of violence.

I can honestly say that I deserved most of my spankings

4) Would you deserve a whipping for speeding? If not, then I ask again, why does it go for a child but not for an adult?

Children who are hit don't learn discipline; they learn fear of retribution. The same result occurs (child behaves) but for the wrong reason. And in the long run, it teaches the child only that might makes right.





1) Rationalization doesn't alway work. You can talk to a dog, and it understands, yet doesn't always listen. Their is a heirarchy involved in the human order, just as in a pack of wolves (you can look to studies on chimp culture as they are the most similar)... I'm not suggesting that you beat the living shit out of the kid, but reprimand them to the degree that is necessary. Not everyone needs to be spanked, you can simply reason with certain people, however, you can't reason with everyone in the same fashion.

You can remove privelages from a dog as well. (privelages to snacks, locations, activities, etc...) I'm not saying in all situations to utilize one standardized way of training/teaching/reprimanding, but it is good to have a full scope of options.

Don't compare a child's mindset to an adult's, they don't have the full capacity to reason like an adult... reason with them according to their ability to understand. I'm not suggesting to spank all children, but it is an option. I'll relate to a child to the degree that they are able to relate to more mature concepts... same in the way of how I relate to a dog, as I don't attempt to have a legitimate discourse on philosophy nor religion with a dog, anymore then I do a child (I'd most certainly like to though).

The world isn't perfect, we can't relate to everything as well as we wish, so we have to adapt and develop forms that work. Pain is responded to by animals as well as humans (animals again), if you can give a perfect situation and a method to deal with all situation please do so and offer an alternative when rationalization, and restrictions don't work.

2) It sure does, however different strokes, different folks. I literally laughed at all the punishments I was given as a child. Even laughed when my mother busted out and threatened to swat me with a spoon. It doesn't always work is all I'm getting at (trust me, as I've always been very defiant to authority that hasn't proven itself through some means).

3) Agreed. It should be avoided at all costs.

4) I wasn't born an adult, nor did I possess my current understanding of the world, or my current mentality as I did when I was a child.

I'll have to disagree with your last statement. Read some of my posts, and look to some of my views... I'm fully against the notions of abuse and misuse of power as a result of possessing it. It has the potential to give off the message, but it also depends on how the child is raised, what values they are taught, and furthermore if they are taught to think for themselves... The real reason that a lot of kids are fucked up isn't necessarily due to their dispositions, it's how they are taught to cope, or rather aren't taught to cope with situations. (why we have so many fucking psychotherapists in our society.... people need to be taught how to think as they weren't taught, nor did they pickup the ability when they were younger, and as a result suffer from it)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/26/05 12:35 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4097914 - 04/26/05 02:25 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'll have to disagree with your last statement.

Well, virtually every psychologist and pediatrician in the world disagrees with you.

And you didn't answer my question: Why is it OK to hit a misbehaving child, but it's not OK to hit you when you're caught speeding?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/26/05 06:25 AM)

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4098418 - 04/26/05 10:24 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have raised a self disciplined, respectful, compassionate, thoughtful, wonderful at following rules, daughter up to age 8 now with barely having to go into my stern voice, zero time outs and zero punishments. I'm proving it can be done.

HITTING IS NEVER necessary. It only happens because adults loose control of themselves.

I've been meaning to write a book called Uncommon Common Sense Parenting.

A child never deserves to be hit. You will only teach the child to hit others when they loose control of themselves, to get negative attention from others and to get their way by force. Who wants to raise a kid like that and parents wonder why they do things where they think they deserve to be hit. The parents create the behavior problem child and then punish them for it. That's not fair to them or given them a fair chance at life.

Every child who is a behavior problem has the explanation for why in how he/she is being raised. It's the parents who need a time out when they loose their cool and to have their toys "preoccupations" taken away so they can spend more time paying constructive attention to their children.

Schools are beginning to bring in counselors for the behavior problem kids, NOT to counsel the children, but who ever is RAISING them, to turn the child behavior around. Ha Ha it's about time people got to the source. Sure enough, when they teach the parents to implement better parenting skills, the child's behavior automatically turns around. The kids were never doing anything wrong, the parents/care givers were. If the parents make it right then it's right behavior to the kids. (uncommon common sense shows this)

I guess I live in a bubble where I forget people still think that children deserve to be hit and punished. It's times like this I am reminded and get motivated to write more pages in my book (I did get it started months ago)

Anyone, go ahead and throw out hypotheticals of undesirable child behavior. I will show you what you will find in how that child is being raised that gave the right of way to that behavior.

These parents are like "Wah, help me to correct my bad child. I love it when they realize it's their bad parenting skills that need to be corrected."

Psychoactive. YOU NEVER deserved to be hit. Thats total BS and what you were brainwashed to beleive to feel it was okay because deep down you know it wasn't. Parents use this other nonsense about hitting kids because they love them. Then the kids say, "Oh they hit me because they loved meand for my own good". Then they grow to beleive that violence is how you show love and they turn around and create abusive relationships and homes.

I am not preaching from a pulpit that doesn't understand this dynamic inside and out from experience as I have raised a daughter who doesn't need punishing and was a kid who got beaten bloody with a belt for giggling when I was suppose to be falling asleep.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4098596 - 04/26/05 11:37 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Spock: "Children should be treated as adults at an early age as possible."

I've also treated children as equal/adults to the best of my ability as well.. But I will admit that this behavior towards children in the past was often done out of a repression of what I percieved to be "childishness".

Later in time, I learned [or perhaps I should say relearned] about the value of child-likeness, and the danger of child-ishness.

In other words, I was mistaking one for other within myself, hence the emphasis on mature interaction between children and myself.



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Offlinemygodisme
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4098692 - 04/26/05 11:56 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think that giving a spanking to an adult who has been pulled over for speeding is a great idea. Lashing by whip is a little on the excessive side, however...

And yes, I do spank my daughter. There is a set form of discipline in our house. If she does something wrong, we discuss it first, and I explain to her why that is not ok.

If she does the behavior again (rare, because usually explaining to her once why the behavior is bad is enough to get her to be good) she gets one of the following according to the offense: a time out, a toy taken away, or grounding.

The third time, she gets a spanking. If there is a fourth time, she has to write 100 times some sort of sentence that correlates to what she did. She hates that punishment the most, and would rather have a spanking than write lines, which is really weird...

I am very strict with my daughter because her birth mother never disciplined her at all...but now my kid is well-behaved, gets along great with other kids, is polite, etc. Spankings are extremely rare, because treating her with respect and not talking down to her work out more times than not.

This is exactly how I was reared; my parents tried calm and rational discussion with me, then revocation of a privilege etc., and finally spanking. I've turned out okay, and I hope my kid turns out like me. She's a good kid, and she is obviously very happy living with us (she begs us to not let her birth mother take her away from us. =( that is another story...)

I also believe there is an age where spanking is no longer appropriate, such as 9 or 10. Using paddles, or belts, or anything else to spank with is also inappropriate, because that causes a lot of pain. Little kids don't need a lot of pain, they need two or three smacks on the bottom and stand in the corner.

I'll shut up now.


--------------------
I've seen the infinite. It's nothing special.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4098712 - 04/26/05 12:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I want to add a consideration to what Spock said.

Reasoning abilities do not start to kick in till around the age of 8. So to think you can reason with a child same as you would an adult might lead to frustration.

Definitely keep up the reasoning with them and give reasons for why you say or do what you do or ask of them. Though they may not be able to reason during the earlier years, when they do hit their age of reasoning, they will have your framework to use when making decisions for themselves.

If a parent says, "Stop it!" and the child asks "why?" and the parent says "because I said so". The child learned nothing and in the future will not have a good reason for not choosing to engage in that same behavior again.

If the parent were to say, "because, you may break the window and get cut with glass and that will hurt right? New windows cost money to replace and some one will have to work very hard to buy a new one. Do you want to work very hard to buy a new on if you break it?" I know throwing stones is fun, and you can do it if you throw them where there is nothing that can break and no one around to get hurt." Then help them find a safe place like a pond or empty field or get them a bucket of water to drop them in. And better yet, do it with them showing them how to do it "safely" and fun with them to show them their joy and wants are important to you.

YES reasoning is VERY important. Just don't expect to see them doing it on their own often until around age 8. Some show signs of doing it earlier though, but its only through memory at that stage but that is still good for them to have, a memory bank of good reasons for why not to do certain things and more constructive alternatives.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (04/26/05 12:06 PM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: mygodisme]
    #4098787 - 04/26/05 12:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I think that giving a spanking to an adult who has been pulled over for speeding is a great idea. Lashing by whip is a little on the excessive side, however...

Spanking an adult for speeding instead of lashing with a whip is too mild to stop the speeding behavior. If you want to compare apples and apples, the violence has to be strong enough to really make you think long and hard before you break the rules again. This is what hitting does in the case of the child, and it's only fair that the adult suffer the same relative violence; that means lashing with a whip.

So, if you don't think it's appropriate to whip a speeder, why is it appropriate to hit a child?  :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/26/05 12:30 PM)

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Posts: 3,546
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4098824 - 04/26/05 12:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I'll have to disagree with your last statement.

Well, virtually every psychologist and pediatrician in the world disagrees with you.

And you didn't answer my question: Why is it OK to hit a misbehaving child, but it's not OK to hit you when you're caught speeding?




Actually I did, it was a justification through similar mentatlities.

Virtually every psychologist, and psychotherapist also advocates popping magical pills to solve your issues as well.... also look to my #1, and my #2 for more answering.

Let's not apply too much rational to a profession that has recently lost much of their rational.

Further, the situation doesn't apply in my scenario, nor many of those that I know that have experienced similar forms of reprimanding... guess the psychologists don't know what to contribute that too.... guess they don't have the holy grail of the mind.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4098848 - 04/26/05 12:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Right, dismiss professionals who, while not perfect, know more about the topic and have more experience with children than you and me combined.

Whatever...

How about you answer my question this time:

Would you accept a change in the traffic laws such that if you get caught speeding, the penalty is lashing by whip? If not, then what argument do you use to justify hitting a misbehaving child, and why doesn't that argument apply to you?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4098858 - 04/26/05 12:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Diploid... seriosly, how far do you want to take this apart?

Is it ok for a cop to give you a timeout or restrict you from tv for speeding? Different crimes, different consequences, one approach simply doesn't always work with child rearing, and establishing a civil code of conduct...

It's why we have big kid time-outs, they're called prisons. TBH i'd rather be hit then given a speeding ticket, one is a fast solution, with a fast direct consequence, a ticket on the other hand... requires payment, at times traffic school, and could even result in the loss of a license.

One method for child rearing is more to the point, and establishes clear boundaries without fucking around; and should only be utilized to the extent that is necessary. Attempting to rationalize with a child, isn't always possible, especially when a child isn't all that rational, or they are rational to the extent that they can justify their behavior (myself as a youngster) and attempt to get away with something that you full well know is wrong.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4098880 - 04/26/05 12:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Why won't you answer my queastion?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4098889 - 04/26/05 12:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I already did... how much clearer would you like me to get?

Trust me, the last thing you'll see me do is attempt to evade questions.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4098900 - 04/26/05 12:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I didn't see your answer. Here, I'll make it easy and go step by step.

Part one:

Would you accept a change in the traffic laws such that if you get caught speeding, the penalty is lashing by whip?

Hint: it's a Yes/No question.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4098907 - 04/26/05 12:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Psychoactive. YOU NEVER deserved to be hit. Thats total BS and what you were brainwashed to beleive to feel it was okay because deep down you know it wasn't. Parents use this other nonsense about hitting kids because they love them. Then the kids say, "Oh they hit me because they loved meand for my own good". Then they grow to beleive that violence is how you show love and they turn around and create abusive relationships and homes.





No... I really did, no brainwashing at all (not in all situations). I had the a fully developed concept of what was wrong, yet was a defiant prick just so I could be. I scoffed at restrictions, and other forms of punishment, as well as direct reasoning.

In light of me challenging it all, just because I could, and none of the other punishments working... :wink:

Trust me, I did.

I'm not violent, nor abusive as a result of it. Some people learn differently... if you could've seen some of the shit I did in direct defiance, and with full reasoning as to the implications of an action, you'd say I deserved more.... It's like telling someone not to push a red button, explaining all the reasons why, telling you all the consequences, explaining it all on so may levels... and you push it to piss them off. :smirk:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Registered: 02/06/05
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4098925 - 04/26/05 12:58 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I didn't see your answer. Here, I'll make it easy and go step by step.

Part one:

Would you accept a change in the traffic laws such that if you get caught speeding, the penalty is lashing by whip?

Hint: it's a Yes/No question.




.... Diploid... are you daft? What issues do you have with my statement?

The answer would be no, but I provided a full reason as to why. Reread my post, let me know what you have issues with. Please, their is no need to babystep through this bullshit, just make your point, your question isn't applicable to this situation as it's comparing apples to oranges.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4098965 - 04/26/05 01:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The answer would be no, but I provided a full reason as to why.

Alright, now that we've established that you won't tolerate being whipped as a penalty for speeding, let's get to your justification for hitting a child.

they are rational to the extent that they can justify their behavior (myself as a youngster) and attempt to get away with something that you full well know is wrong.

So, you're saying that if the child repeats the misbehavior despite being reasoned with, THEN it's alright to hit them.

Then using your own argument, whipping you on your SECOND speeding offense is alright. After all, you "full well know [speeding] is wrong", especially given the first speeding ticket (which didn't work).

This is YOUR argument. First talk, then if that doesn't work, hit.

Now the second question: Why doesn't this argument apply to you on your SECOND speeding offense??


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
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Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4098989 - 04/26/05 01:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The answer would be no, but I provided a full reason as to why.

1) Alright, now that we've established that you won't tollerate being whipped as a penalty for speeding, let's get to your justification for hitting a child.

they are rational to the extent that they can justify their behavior (myself as a youngster) and attempt to get away with something that you full well know is wrong.

So, you're saying that if the child repeats the misbehavior dispite being reasoned with, THEN it's alright to hit them.

THen using your own argument, whipping you on your SECOND speeding offence is alright. After all, you "full well know [speeding] is wrong", especially given the first speeding ticket.

This is YOUR argument. First talk, then if that doesn't work, hit.

Now the second question: Why doesn't this argument apply to you on your SECOND speeding offence??




1) I did that a page back. Need help deciphering? I don't think that what I wrote was all that cryptic. 

2) :lol: you're assuming that your comparison is applicable to begin with. You could compare how I was as a child, to how I am now, and you'll notice a vast improvement in terms of reasoning capabilities. Use a better situation, or a better example please, unless you are implying that adult and child minds are fundamentally the same in regards to haveing the ability to reason. If you aren't making that assertion, drop your ridiculous example and contrive a new one.

Beyond that... no, that isn't my argument... attempting the same thing, the same way, for the same action... in the full recourse as a consequence to it that is, and expecting a different result; is the classical definition of insanity. Take your flawed ticket example for instance, you made no mention of rising penalities for further infringement, and tbh some of the consequences are worse then being spanked/whipped. 


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlinemygodisme
mommy

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 37
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099005 - 04/26/05 01:12 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

When you say "hitting a child" you are making the connotative statement that I would raise my hand and strike my child out of anger. I would never, EVER do that. She is my child and she is precious to me.

Hitting and spanking are NOT the same things. After we had discussed with her several times why it was very important that she tell us she was leaving the yard to go over to a friend's house, but she continued to not tell us, we made her stay in her room. The next day she repeated the behavior that was unacceptable, and she got spanked for it. She has never again repeated that behavior.

Where reasoning and time out/room-time grounding didn't work, the spanking did. What if it had not worked? We would have moved on to something more extreme, like making her write lines, and finally taking away going over to a friend's alltogether.

Your child may get traumatized over the idea of a spanking, but mine totally freaks out over the idea of writing lines; she starts going into major panic-attack mode, crying and screaming and freaking out for absolutely no reason whatsoever. What is the more humane punishment? Giving her three waps on the bottom and sending her to her room, or spending three hours forcing her to write lines, then calming her down again later?

Each parent has their own techniques that they are comfortable with... But don't you ever dare accuse me of hitting my child.


--------------------
I've seen the infinite. It's nothing special.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: mygodisme]
    #4099021 - 04/26/05 01:14 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

:yesnod: :handth:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099048 - 04/26/05 01:21 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I see. A child should be hit when they repeatedly misbehave, but you should keep getting tickets when you do the same thing.  :sad:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: mygodisme]
    #4099052 - 04/26/05 01:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hitting and spanking are NOT the same things.

Oh, this must be some strange new usage of the words hitting and spanking that I hadn't previously been aware of.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (04/26/05 01:54 PM)

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Offlinemygodisme
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099078 - 04/26/05 01:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

If you had bothered to read you would see that I'm all for people getting spanked instead of getting tickets.

Let us go a step further and say that instead of just getting spanked, or even flogged, they should be horribly mutilated, with their eyes poked out, or their skin peeled off.

Because, as we all know, that is the exact same pain a child suffers when you smack 'em on the bottom a couple of times.


--------------------
I've seen the infinite. It's nothing special.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099084 - 04/26/05 01:29 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

You people keep going round and round with the same hypocritical argument.

1. Try talking to the child.

2. Repeat step one X times.

3. If it doesn't work after X talks, hit.

Why doesn't the above work for speeders?

Answer: because children are unable to reason like an adult who figure they better stop speeding or they'll get another ticket.

So if the child can't reason, how the hell do you expect it to understand how to behave.

You can't have it both ways. If the child can't reason, you certainly should not hit it for being unable to reason. If the child CAN reason, then you certainly can get them to behave by restricting their privileges.

In both cases, hitting is not required. How can you not see that you're behaving like bullies forcing conformity from a child with violence?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099095 - 04/26/05 01:31 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I see. A child should be hit when they repeatedly misbehave, but you should keep getting tickets when you do the same thing.  :sad:




http://www.nobeliefs.com/fallacies.htm


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099124 - 04/26/05 01:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You people keep going round and round with the same hypocritical argument.

1. Try talking to the child.

2. Repeat step one X times.

3. If it doesn't work after X talks, hit.

Why doesn't the above work for speeders?

Answer, because children are unable to reason like an adult and figure that they better stop speeding or they'll get another ticket.

So if the child can't reason, how the hell do you expect it to understand how to behave.

You can't have it both ways. If the child can't reason, you certainly should not hit it for being unable to reason. If the child CAN reason, then you certainly can get them to behave by restricting their privileges.

In both cases, hitting is not required.




Present a solution instead of being critical of a method.

Let me paint you a picture real quick;

When I was younger my family had a table made of solid wood (forget the type, it's irrelevant).

I drew on it, and was told not to.
I took a fork on it, and was told not to.
Both were done multiple times, and given reasonable reprimands. I tend to laugh at restrictions, and consequences even today... Their is always something else that can be done.  :wink:


--I was explained the reasoning why not to, as it was destroying the table as a result of it's aesthetic purpose, and if I wanted to do that, I could do it on something else outside.

One day, I go into the kitchen and take a corkscrew to the table, full well knowing that it would further destroy the table, I did it to test my parents. (I'm a defiant shithead at times :smirk:)

What would you do in this situation?

Punishments were given to me on all prior occasions, they were also stepped up in accordance with my efforts in light of the reasoning. Yet when I took a corkscrew to the table several times, and drilled some holes halfway through the wood glossed finish of the tabletop, it was completely uncalled for on my part. I knew it was wrong, I knew their would be consequences, and I tested it anyway, and got spanked as a result of it. Due to the spanking, I promptly stopped fucking with the table. Sometimes their just needs to be a greater deterrant to an action.

Let me know what you would do.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099149 - 04/26/05 01:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Present a solution instead of being critical of a method.

There IS no solution, dude. That's what you're not getting. You have to treat kids with the same respect you do adults and roll with the punches.

It's not a perfect system, but it's the right way to raise kids; unconditional love, positive regard, and support. That means NO HITTING.

Broken lamps, mud on the carpet, food fights, and all the rest of the shit comes with the territory. Deal with it. If you don't like that, don't have kids!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinemygodisme
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Posts: 37
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099151 - 04/26/05 01:43 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Great link, thanks! Feeding time is over...


--------------------
I've seen the infinite. It's nothing special.


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099156 - 04/26/05 01:44 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Address my questions.

Their is also the notion of tough love, and it is necessary at times, especially in light of people that are reasonable, yet choose to overstep their boundaries to test the consequences.

Edit:
I was given a high level of respect as a child, and was raised to be very independant in regards to dealing with situations. I was given a hell of a lot of freedom, as I demonstrated that I could handle it. Respect is a two-sided coin, in the scenario that I presented, I'm the one that knowingly crossed over the imaginary line of respect; purposely might I add :lol:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/26/05 01:50 PM)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099167 - 04/26/05 01:46 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Present a solution instead of being critical of a method.

There IS no solution, dude. That's what you're not getting. You have to treat kids with the same respect you do adults and roll with the punches.

It's not a perfect system, but it's the right way to raise kids; unconditional love, positive regard, and support. That means NO HITTING.

Broken lamps, mud on the carpet, food fights, and all the rest of the shit comes with the territory. Deal with it. If you don't like that, don't have kids!




Yes, totally agreed!

Ironically, I have no interest in raising children.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099187 - 04/26/05 01:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Address my questions.

Tell ya what, I'll preempt your question by quoting you:

I drew on it, and was told not to.
I took a fork on it, and was told not to.
Both were done multiple times


And you know why all of the above? I'll tell you:

I was raised with spanking when I was a child :syringe:

I'm done with this thread.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099195 - 04/26/05 01:53 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Oh, I see, more fallacies to distract from the question.

Thanks for debating, and leaving when you can't solve a situation that is real by your method.

Yes, the table incident is a true story :tongue:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099223 - 04/26/05 02:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Psychoactive, I see you want someone who advocates the non-violent method of discipline [which includes exclusion from verbal violence] to answer your question or two...

Try Jiggy on for a size:

"Anyone, go ahead and throw out hypotheticals of undesirable child behavior. I will show you what you will find in how that child is being raised that gave the right of way to that behavior.

These parents are like "Wah, help me to correct my bad child. I love it when they realize it's their bad parenting skills that need to be corrected."

Psychoactive. YOU NEVER deserved to be hit. Thats total BS and what you were brainwashed to beleive to feel it was okay because deep down you know it wasn't. Parents use this other nonsense about hitting kids because they love them. Then the kids say, "Oh they hit me because they loved meand for my own good". Then they grow to beleive that violence is how you show love and they turn around and create abusive relationships and homes.

I am not preaching from a pulpit that doesn't understand this dynamic inside and out from experience as I have raised a daughter who doesn't need punishing and was a kid who got beaten bloody with a belt for giggling when I was suppose to be falling asleep."





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4099294 - 04/26/05 02:20 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yes this is true. I am in total agreement with jiggy on this one. Children should be treated with the same respect as adults, if you show respect to your child then you get respect back. My brother has raised his kid in this way, and not only do they have an excellent father son relationship but they are really good friends too. He's a great kid, and really bright too. If he gets in trouble the first person he talks to is his dad and they work through it together as a learning process. Its NEVER OK to hit a child, it conditions them to believe that violence is OK under certain circumstances (Seems to be the whole US Governments idea toward violence as well, makes you wonder if they were all hit/spanked as children). If you give a child just as much responsibility as he/she can handle, and build a good foundation of respect and openness from the start, then there is no problem, they will always know that they can talk to you under any circumstances and they will always have respect for you, because you respect them as a fellow and equal human being. This is my stance 100% on this issue, i will accept no 'But If's' or 'What If's' or 'If only i was hit i would have been a better behaved kid' because really its the responsibility of the parent to instill a sense of respect, responsibility and openness in the child in the first place so if/when they do fuck up (usually during adolescence), they will come and talk openly with the parent/s about the mistakes and confide in them openly because the foundations have been laid for such an open and respectful relationship.

Bad parenting is the cause of adolescent rebellion, because the adult up until that age treats the child as if they aren't responsible for their own existence and they neglect to lay the foundations of respect, openness, responsibility and much more importantly equinimity so the child automatically will reject and go against everything the parent says during that period and even worse will not confide in the parents when things go wrong and problems occur.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4099354 - 04/26/05 02:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
Psychoactive, I see you want someone who advocates the non-violent method of discipline [which includes exclusion from verbal violence] to answer your question or two...

Try Jiggy on for a size:

"Anyone, go ahead and throw out hypotheticals of undesirable child behavior. I will show you what you will find in how that child is being raised that gave the right of way to that behavior.

These parents are like "Wah, help me to correct my bad child. I love it when they realize it's their bad parenting skills that need to be corrected."

Psychoactive. YOU NEVER deserved to be hit. Thats total BS and what you were brainwashed to beleive to feel it was okay because deep down you know it wasn't. Parents use this other nonsense about hitting kids because they love them. Then the kids say, "Oh they hit me because they loved meand for my own good". Then they grow to beleive that violence is how you show love and they turn around and create abusive relationships and homes.

I am not preaching from a pulpit that doesn't understand this dynamic inside and out from experience as I have raised a daughter who doesn't need punishing and was a kid who got beaten bloody with a belt for giggling when I was suppose to be falling asleep."








Defiance, and questioning authority isn't a result of my raising... it's a result of my personality. Not every behavioral aspect is influenced with how one is raised, some things come with the package.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4099369 - 04/26/05 02:36 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Read up on social heirarchy, and it's clear that rebellion is a vital aspect of natural behavior... and not a result of raising. Furthermore, one can look to the more intelligent simians if you want reference material. Rebellion, and challenging of notions is the fundamental aspect of evolution in a more conceptual "conscious" sense. Without questioning, and challenging old notions, we just stagnate.

Like all things, respect is earned, and isn't given (unless your foolish). To think that by virtue of them being your parent they deserve respect is, foolish in itself... :shrug: I'll stop at this for now, but look into various other forms of social heirarchies in the animal kingdom, challenging that which is established is necessary on so many fundamental levels, and it most certainly isn't a result of bad parenting. (unless, wolfs, chimps, lions, etc.. are thought to be bad parents)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099379 - 04/26/05 02:41 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The very word "Authority" is an indication that your parents raised you to think that they were in charge, responsible and had full "Authority" over your life. This is the cause of defiant rebellion, it comes about through a lack respect, responsibility and most of all equanimity in the parent/child relationship. You like to think that your rebellious defiance came with the package but the truth is that all of these aspects are conditioned attitudes that develop through incorrect parenting.

I'm saying that respect should not be earned at all in a parent/child relationship, it should come unconditionally from the parent to the child from the beginning. This way the child automatically copies and reciprocates the respect to the parent. Haven't you noticed that a child mind is like a sponge, it soaks up ,copies and responds to the parents attitudes and behaviors as well as people in its immediate environment.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

Edited by egghead1 (04/26/05 02:47 PM)

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4099399 - 04/26/05 02:49 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

OMG!!! It's a word, let's not take it out of context, look to the dictionary and realize what it denotes.

You do not know how I was raised, you did not live my life, you did not experience the strong sense of freedom I was alotted to make my own decisions.

egghead1... please, look at some reference material pertaining to animal social heirarchies.... Humans just have an advanced form of it, yet are still animals... so it indeed does apply. You will notice vast similarities in terms of social order and respect through age, as well as the de-establishment of an older order to make way for a new one.

You're conditioned to place emphasis through psychologists that all are problems are a result of how somebody is raised, yet fail to realize the similarties found within the animal kingdom. Yes; humans are animals, only we're better at doing everything then most animals are.

You can place the focus all on me on a personal level, however that doesn't explain why their are so many irresponsible children as a result of being given to much authority to make their own decisions, and a general negligience in terms of parental care. Further you can look to how they have a strong lack of discipline as a result of it.

Edit:
Humor me at least and review some of it. If you find no correlation of evidence, then explain why you feel the way you do without any form of propoer justification; and why it doesn't pertain, and is so dissimilar to human heirarchies of authority, and respect.



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099440 - 04/26/05 03:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I do have to question you on one point. How many children do you have? How many are turned out adults? What is their condition? I had a few years of psych my first go round in college, as a psych major. I learned about negative and positive reinforcement. These methods are way more effective than reward and punishment. If utilised correctly spanking is an effective form of negative reinforcement...especially for small (under 8) children. If used incorrectly spanking is ineffective. Too frequent spankings desensitize the child quickly, but used as a last resort it can be effective. I have spanked my children on several occasions when they were younger with good results. An older child is better dealt with through reason and by granting or withholding desired privileges or items. The most important thing is to always explain why. I have 3 children who have excellant grades and behavior. One is seventeen and heading off for college next fall. By my judgement she is an adult and requires little guidance. My children all respect my word and follow it scrupulously while maintaining respect for my person and opinions...which I encourage them to question. One of my proudest moments was on 9/11 2001. I was frustrated by the television coverage and said a racial slur against Arabs...my eighth grade daughter promptly corrected me and denounced my statement as hate based nonsense which was based in generalizations. I felt a little peeved, but I was also proud of her.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099446 - 04/26/05 03:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

that doesn't explain why their are so many irresponsible children as a result of being given to much authority to make their own decisions, and a general negligience in terms of parental care. Further you can look to how they have a strong lack of discipline as a result of it.

"too much authority"

"General negligence"

You've generally explained it yourself.

Too much authority is not the recommendation for healthy, conscious parenting nor is general negligence. I don't think any of us in this thread are advocating such parental approaches.

It's quite simple really: Physical and/or emotional negativity is not a prerequisite for discipline.
There is an entire dimension of disciplinary actions. However, putting multi-dimensional modalities into practice takes a very multi-dimensional person, and many parents who are too strictly one-dimensional, e.g. not open minded, will face greater challenges in administrating disciplinary action.

You are free to excercise whatever forces of discipline on your children [or whoever] you wish. Nobody is going to take that right from you... However, just remember: There is and will always be the alternative route. It may not be as fast and easy, it may not serve the compulsive need for instant gratification... but it is the path that reaps the rewards in the long run.

Who emerged victorious in the perennial race between the slow, but honest Tortoise and the quick but cheating Hare?



--------------------
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4099847 - 04/26/05 05:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I fully agree... I'm just merely suggesting that it should be utilized as a parenting tool as a last result, as other methods fall short depending on the will of the individual.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099863 - 04/26/05 05:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

But thats still saying that under some circumstances its OK for violence to be used against a child. Its never Ok for this to happen under any circumstances. If the child is out of control, then thats your own fault for letting your relationship with him/her degrade to that level.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4099871 - 04/26/05 05:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Explain how you would solve the real life example that I provided.

No other method worked... nuff' said.

Life isn't all peachy keen like we would like it to be :shrug: we implement methods to compensate for unforeseen scenarios.

Methods that work.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4100506 - 04/26/05 08:35 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"But thats still saying that under some circumstances its OK for violence to be used against a child. Its never Ok for this to happen under any circumstances"

I have to ask you how many children you have, and their ages. Such a statement seems based in inexperience. Spanking is not "violence" as you describe it. What I define spanking as is the classic "over the knee" spanked with hand spanking. Combined with a careful explanation and used as a last resort method (after scolding, sitting in the corner, taking away a toy, etc...). Particularly if administered just after the offense is committed, it is a great way of breaking a child's pattern of behavior. No pain need be involved...it is a rapid interuption in the child's flow of conciousness that creates doubt in regard to a particular situation. Under these comnditions a new pattern of behavior can be installed rapidly. I am not discussing random violence here, but a form of behavior mofification. One analogy to this I have found is in Carlos Castaneda's books. In those books such a form of programming was called "stopping the world". Other ways of disrupting behavior patterns such as loud unexpected noises or being splashed with cold water can serve as well. This method of behavior modification can be used on adults as well, but spanking might be difficult, so other disruptive actions are better.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4100717 - 04/26/05 09:35 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I will admit that I haven't read all the posts in this thread. As an educator, I've found that being strict at the beginning of the school year leads to a great deal of mutual respect by the time December, spring break and June roll around. These are the times when you need kids to be in control.
Jiggy, what you did with your group is a method widely used.


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Re: Relating to Children [Re: chinadoll]
    #4100725 - 04/26/05 09:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with Huehuecoyotl, everyone should beat kids to death.  If they talk when company is over they deserve it.  If they show any spark of creativity or originality, beat it out of them, so no one thinks they are gay.

Fuck, I thought this was the 21 century.  Fucking Christ, guys.  NO, you do not hit kids.  Bad.  :whack:


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Re: Relating to Children [Re: tomk]
    #4100780 - 04/26/05 09:56 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, same thing tomk, describe your approach to the situation I presented.

It is indeed the 21st century, we can kill each other better, and live longer.... wtf is that supposed to mean? How is it that you found that Huehuecoyotl said or implied what you're suggesting in any manner?

Even "fucking Christ" and his followers follow this practice; spare the rod, spoil the child.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: chinadoll]
    #4100847 - 04/26/05 10:27 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Yes yes, being strict/stern yet pleasant is important for establishing mutual trust and respect with children. This is a different topic from using hitting for punishment.

I bet what you do is set the guidelines first and then reinforce them with advanced warning follow through consistently. This strictness is a MUST, especially the consistency of follow through.

That's where many parents blow it. They say, "If you don't stop throwing sand at the other kids we are leaving the park and NO ice cream after wards". Then they go back to jabbering with the other moms. 10 minutes later, kid still throwing sand and they say it again and go back to jabbering. 30 minutes later, kid still throwing sand, they say it again. 20 minutes later the kid gets hit on the ass and yanked away and they leave as the other moms are and then they go for ice cream.

You know that's what I am talking about.

How should it be handled one might ask so I am giving solutions instead of pointing out problems. It's important to lay out the rules as best you can when in new environments so kids have a chance at least to comply on their own. IF, the child does something undesirable without having been told it was, you have to tell what not to do and why and give an alternative. At that time, you also tell them, that if they do it again, you will leave and no ice cream. If they do it again-ask them to say good bye to everyone and you leave and you don't go for ice cream.

A child isn't going to believe a word you say, if you don't mean t and follow through. Don't say it if you don't mean it and say only what you mean and are willing to follow through with.

Here's a good one yo guys will love. I was at a McDonald's last year in the play land section. This little girl, cute as doll goes running in to climb up the slide. The mom follows her, grabs her, whacks her hard on the ass and says, "We play after we eat."

So they eat and the little girl goes to play. The first thing she did was walk up to another kid and she whacked him on the ass. The mom yells at her, "Sarah, we do not hit other people." Oh, man I couldn't keep my mouth shut. I turned to her and said , "Yes you do. I just saw you hit your daughter ten minutes ago." She got flustered and left.

Well, I could write a book on this stuff so I will leave it off here!

Bless your heart for being a teacher! I think the teachers of our children should be the highest paid people on the planet! :heart: :thumbup:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100861 - 04/26/05 10:33 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

That quote from the Bible, "Do not spare the rod to spoil the child" is one of the most widely misinterpreted ones used by physically abusive parents.

FYI, back in the day, a rod was a measuring tool, not a punishment whipping tool.

That phrase is talking about using just measure of how much you give so as not to spoil a child.


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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4100873 - 04/26/05 10:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Like everything in the bible... it's open to interpretation :smile:

"The rule of thumb" is pretty similar.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4100879 - 04/26/05 10:40 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"Ok, same thing tomk, describe your approach to the situation I presented. "

Start with not hitting kids and go from there. It's easy. Just don't hit kids. Simple. What could be MORE FUCKING OBVIOUS THEN THAT?


--------------------
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100893 - 04/26/05 10:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

It's not open to interpretation when at the time it was written in the area it was written a rod was a measuring tool.

If it was used to beat children then yes, you could say the Bible advocates it. It was used to measure amounts. Spoiled children are given to much. The quote is to teach that one should use just measurement when giving way to children.

Once people learn what that word was used for in the place and time, the misinterpretation for of seeing it as a beating tool for punishment holds zippo weight.

Hitting children does not correct or prevent the negative spoiling of them. Not over indulging them with unguided leeway and materialism does.  :cool: :heart:


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Re: Relating to Children [Re: tomk]
    #4100895 - 04/26/05 10:47 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

.... ok, explain your method for the example then.

If it's so simple describe how you would've dealt with me in that situation. Please, make it abundantly clear, I figure that if it was so obvious I'd know the solution myself :wink:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4100900 - 04/26/05 10:52 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100902 - 04/26/05 10:54 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"I'm not violent, nor abusive as a result of it."

Yeah, but you want to hit kids.  You think there isn't a problem with it.  You are shocked that people think there is.

That makes you violent and abusive.  And what you are doing is making excuses for hitting kids.  Not cool.

:whack:

I can't find your example to respond to am to stoned to read to much tonight to bad.  But don't hit kids.


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Re: Relating to Children [Re: tomk]
    #4100916 - 04/26/05 11:00 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

.... FFS, sober up!

You on crack?

Spanking doesn't = hitting.

I'm completely and utterly against hitting children. Or much of anyone else for that matter, unless the situation mandates it (more often then not, nothing does, unless dealing with highly irrational people).


I didn't advocate beating the shit out of the little mofo till they're bloody to teach them a lesson, and to not attempt to reason them and to just pull the belt off the minute they do something wrong.... It's a last resort solution.

You said; "That makes you violent and abusive."
-:shrug: ok... No, it makes me realize that discipline and tough love is necessary at times... I'm a realist, shit happens, you can do your best, but when a kid is fully aware of the rational, reasoning, justification.... ~is fully aware of the context of the situation, yet openly is defiant just to test you, something needs to be done, and obviously being reasonable with a child that is reasonable that chooses not to use it; more then qualifies a different approach when all else fails. Reasoning with children isn't always as easy as you suggest. When you sober up, and are actually thinking, provide your solution to the scenario.

Although, reasoning with children is sometimes easier then reasoning with stoned adults putting words in my mouth.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100923 - 04/26/05 11:03 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Those modern day translations mean nothing to me. Historians who have studied the times of the writings of the Bible in it's "original" writings found I was sharing with you.

Some sick fuck along the way twisted that message. That second link is appallingly disturbing as is anyone who supports it as its written.

Did you guys read that one?

I need to help swami go after the Bible thumpers even more then I do. When I once posted a wish for that book in all its translations to be burned, I meant it.

Any God who would instruct the physical beatings of a child and say that you hate your child if you don't beat them is a twisted soul in my book.

THANKYOU for pointing that English translation out to the Bible Thumpers here of how sick the God of the Bible is OR how sick the people who interpreted the translations and edited it were.:thumbup:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4100928 - 04/26/05 11:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

:thumbup: Their are different approaches to all situations. Different strokes different folks, same in terms of punishments.

BTW, what was the rod in terms of measurement? I'm trying to look something up for it, but can't find much on it.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100930 - 04/26/05 11:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

To be a role model for kids you start by demonstrating that you aren't going to hit them. Then, you worry about things like how to deal with open defience. You don't have hitting things in your arsenol of how to deal with problems, and your kids won't either.

Very simple man.


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"I am eternally free"

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100937 - 04/26/05 11:09 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Psychoactive,

You yourself said that the state should be separate from the church. The state says, hitting children is a punishable offense.

Why did you turn tail so quickly?

Did you see the video tape of the mom hitting her daughter in the walmart parking lot? Her daughter was taken away from her, put into Foster care and the mom went to jail.

I don't care about how someones bogus idea of god or bogus god deals with it, but I do care how the state deals with it if you get caught. I also care enough that I posted about it not even being necessary. Anyone have kids here and want to raise them without hitting them, PM me. It's very doable with excellent results.

LAST RESORT=Parent lost control of themselves.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100939 - 04/26/05 11:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Back in the REAL world... different children respond differently to incentives and disincentives. There is also the question of mental ability to comprehend concepts. In THE REAL WORLD, children are not born with the ability to understand every word and concept that you may try to convey. When a child is too mentally immature to understand the ramifications of his/her actions sometimes the only resort is to instill a little temporary pain on the behind in order get them to behave in a proper or SAFE manner. I would much rather spank a child's rear to drive home the point of not crossing the street alone, than to bury my child because I was afraid to spank him.

Children require that they learn LIMITS. Again, IN THE REAL WORLD if a child engages in behavior that is offensive to someone and that person does not believe in refraining from inflicting pain, your child might get his head bashed in because you were too squeamish to teach him hard limits. Ninety-nine times out of one-hundred, if you show me a child who is out of control with his parents, I can show you a parent who is either too permissive or inconsistent in setting limits and applying disincentives.

It is not violence, but basic behavioral conditioning which is utilized throughout the animal kingdom among higher animals which raise their young. When children have advanced to a point that they can understand explanations or examples AND act accordingly, the need for punishment disappears.

If anyone is to tell me that they have never learned to alter their own behavior as a result of pain, I would say that that person is either very lucky to have avoided any mishaps or a complete fool.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: tomk]
    #4100945 - 04/26/05 11:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, sober up and get back to me when you have a clue as to the scenario I presented. (It's a real life example, I'll put that fact on the table)

Your method wouldn't work. What about extreme defiance?  :smirk:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/26/05 11:21 PM)

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4100953 - 04/26/05 11:17 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Psychoactive,

1) You yourself said that the state should be separate from the church. The state says, hitting children is a punishable offense.

Why did you turn tail so quickly?

Did you see the video tape of the mom hitting her daughter in the walmart parking lot? Her daughter was taken away from her, put into Foster care and the mom went to jail.

I don't care about how someones bogus idea of god or bogus god deals with it, but I do care how the state deals with it if you get caught. I also care enough that I posted about it not even being necessary. Anyone have kids here and want to raise them without hitting them, PM me. It's very doable with excellent results.

LAST RESORT=Parent lost control of themselves.




1) :lol: I'm not advocating anything in regards to the church of state, merely pointing out something I partially agree with (in context of being too lenient will result in a shit of a kid that lacks discipline and has no respect for consequences).

/sighs again.

Spanking has a purpose, hitting doesn't.

I'm not advocating abuse. I'm advocating a strict measure, for the worst case scenario. I am in no way implying that you should leave welts, bruises, or marks of any kind. It's merely to be used to associate a negative feeling, with a negative action in scenarios where nothing else works.

Worst Case scenario = kid is openly defiant, fully aware of the situation, and telling you that your restrictions are ineffectual... and proves it by testing you to prove that :smile:.

LAST RESORT = Parent lost control over their children.... Children need a degree of instruction, and control, till they can prove otherwise, and are self-sufficient in their actions.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/26/05 11:28 PM)

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Autonomous]
    #4100963 - 04/26/05 11:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

There are other ways to do that Auto. My daughter NEVER ran out into the street or parking lot. She clung close to me and stayed on side walks.

All I had to do was this- Explain to her that she is to small for moving cars to see her and that she could get hit and severely injured or killed. Without a lot of graphic detail, she was able to understand that she did not want to experience that because she loves herself and life. I also always instructed her to stay on the side walk and next to me when crossing parking lots and streets. I repeated this every time we got out of the car or left a shop.

Because I had her trust in me earned, she listened.

I suppose the difficult part for parents is earning their trust and respect because that can't follow through and reason using love and respect for the self and others as a base. Some screwy along the way gave them the bright idea to use fear and ignorance instead as a base. Add laziness and consistency goes out the window too and there you have your child who doesn't listen well.

The parent who raises a kid to ignorantly disobey them I think still needs parenting themselves.  :yesnod: That would be the result of the arrested development that occurred when they were being traumatized as children.


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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4100971 - 04/26/05 11:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"The parent who raises a kid to ignorantly disobey them I think still needs parenting themselves."

Behavior isn't always a result of parenting, regardless of the methods employed; all forms of punishments don't always work, and in some cases they further exacerbate the individuals nature.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100982 - 04/26/05 11:30 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Everyone here dissagreeing with even spanking also disagrees with being over lenient and giving kids too much control. if that is your ONLY argument then we are all talking for nothing because we all agree on that.

A child will not openly challenge a parent when they already know how far they can push. Did you read what i wrote about the importnce of follow through on your word and consistancy from day one?

I gave an example of the kid throwing sand at the park. Parents like the one described, and they are a dime a dozen, raise kids who challenge them all of the time. The kis get hit because the parents are to lazy to set guidelines, consequences ahead of time and to follow through with them consistantly.

Did you see what my example consequence was? Leave playing with friends at the park and the removal of the icecream treat the kid was asking for all day. NO HITTING required.

If they have learned without fail that you mean what you say, they will listen.


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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4101043 - 04/26/05 11:50 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Unless they just like to challenge notions to see the consequences of it right?

I have to entertain myself somehow :crazy:

I've read everything you posted. The thing is, that you aren't getting that everything was given to a "t" in terms of laying down the ground rules, explanations, subsequent punishments.... all order and rules were established.

I merely broke the rules because I could and to push the metaphorical red button as it was there. :shrug:

Tbh I feel the sameway about consequences today, I don't care for them and they really don't effect me. If it can affect my will, it can affect me... the only thing that can affect my will is my willingness to allow it to be affected.



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4101167 - 04/27/05 12:13 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Thank you Jiggy........... What I apply to my students I've (we've) applied to my (our) kids...and they are damn impressive kids. My oldest is being inducted into the National Honor Society and I am DAMN PROUD


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Just a little nervous from the fall.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4101180 - 04/27/05 12:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I would have to write a book to cover it in detail and give lots of examples. I am generalising. Yes, laying the ground work to prevent the problems in the first place is the key. Prevention is 90% of the method.

I too like you pushed and challenged because my mom was an inconsistant push over and my dads threats of hitting me went ignored once I became densensitised to it.

I am having to reparent myself as an adult because I never had good parenting. It does start with loving yourself, forgiving the past and knowing you deserved better and treating yourself in kind with that. :hugs:

Hmmmmmm what do consequences mean to me now? I'm still quick to the fuck you and fuck off if someone tries to lay a power trip on me. I don't do people laying authority trips on me. I am a self led self authority type that seeks assistance in weak areas, but still makes the final call for myself.

Maybe that was a strength that came out of my f'd up upbringing and maybe its also why I am good at pushing limits that serve me well now in being able to expand upon my reality and experiences and what I can make possible for myself. Uhhhhh thanks mom and dad.:lol:

Between me and me, my motivation for making choices comes from self love and self respect.

I raise my daughter to use self love and self respect as her motivator for making choices, not fear or self ignorance.

What good is doing something if it is only done out of fear of punishment? Its hollow, shallow and meaningless.

Bed time for this bozo! :sleeping: :japsmile:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4102142 - 04/27/05 09:28 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
My daughter NEVER ran out into the street or parking lot. She clung close to me and stayed on side walks.



So what? Do you think all children are identical emotional and mental copies of your girl? I have three children, they are each different. Each child has his or her own personality. Not all children are prone to cling, some are congenital explorers and experimenters, prone to test every limit put in front of them. I'll repeat what I said previously, different children respond differently to incentives and disincentives. What works for one child may not work for another.

Quote:

All I had to do was this- Explain to her that she is to small for moving cars to see her and that she could get hit and severely injured or killed.



Was she able to immediately comprehend this at birth? I'll repeat. There is also the question of mental ability to comprehend concepts. In THE REAL WORLD, children are not born with the ability to understand every word and concept that you may try to convey. When a child is too mentally immature to understand the ramifications of his/her actions sometimes the only resort is to instill a little temporary pain on the behind in order get them to behave in a proper or SAFE manner. Do all children listen AND understand when their parents explain things? Even assuming a child has both listened and understood, what is to say that a child won't be distracted and think about something else, ignoring a previous admonishment? What if the child is extremely headstrong? What works for one child may not work for another.

Quote:

I also always instructed her to stay on the side walk and next to me when crossing parking lots and streets. I repeated this every time we got out of the car or left a shop.



I'll reiterate. Your child IS NOT identical to all other children. Each one is unique in their combination of traits and strengths and weaknesses of traits. What works for one child may not work for another.

How about you? Have you ever learned to alter your own behavior as a result of pain? Have you ever taken an action that resulted in negative consequences, causing you to remember not to engage in that action in the same way again or not at all? Do you think that this method of learning is useless for those possessed of the most immature mental states?


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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Autonomous]
    #4102311 - 04/27/05 10:35 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I must say, this has been a very interesting and thought provoking thread, full of content. :thumbup: :mushroom2:

This whole subject is very dynamic and full of intricate details, considering the very nature of a human being's progressive interactions with the world. A human being develops as a result of its interactions, which determines how this human being thinks and makes decisions on how to interact in the next moment. They centrum of a human's life and the development of that life is interaction.

A parent has the oppurtunity to play an integral role in the development of a child, but it is a lesser role as compared to the role of the child themself. It is the child who is the one experiencing their life, and it is the child who begins to develop a mind that they will (hopefully :grin:) use to further guide that experience and make choices as how they will interact with their environment.

The central topic here is whether or not it is necessary to inflict a small amount of physical, painful sensation on a child in order to influence the way in which the child acts. Obviously, it is a complex topic, and there isn't any easy answer - an easy, simple answer belies the sheer complexity and multi-faceted aspects of the development of a life.

Personally, I can envision situations where it definitely might be necessary. The same people in this thread that suggest that providing for the experience of physical pain is never an option will also suggest options, such as putting the child in "time-out", or by removing the privledge of playing with a favored toy, etc. etc. etc.... I see no conceptual difference between these options and that of spanking. Both produce the sensation of pain, regardless of whether it is physical or mental.

Obviously, in early stages of development, children will not have the understanding that comes with experience to comprehend complex situations. The majority of adults are not capable of foreseeing the far-reaching effects that they cause by their actions (as they are themselves still in early stages of mental development :tongue:), and children actually have a tangible excuse. :grin: Children are instilled with a temporary framework to ensure that they will survive long enough to be in a position where they can comprehend. For most people, these temporary modes of thought processes are never outgrown....

Anyways, ja, creating a pain sensation as a response to certain actions, in an attempt to manipulate the child to not act in that manner again, creates for the child a very limited in awareness mode of thinking. It should only be used when absolutely necessary because if the associations between certain thoughts/actions and subsequent reward or punishment become too strong, the child will be stuck with this programming, and it will become less possible for the child to enter higher states of consciousness when they are of enough experience to begin doing so.

Essentially, the programming should not be so reinforced that it is impossible to change that programming later on, or so that the programming does not permanently effect the manner in which the child perceives reality. Our minds and our thought processes, our mind's structure need to be dynamic and open to change as possible....

Ja, I don't know where I am going with this. :grin: I obviously have no definite point to add to this, I am simply texturizing the thread and adding to its vibrancy... :mushroom2: I just don't see the whole topic as having some right/wrong quality, as in, where spanking is never to happen or anything like that... Every interaction adds to the experience of life, and these first interactions initate all others. Any experience of pain (regardless of whether it is inflicted physically or mentally - as if there is a real difference in terms of this subject :smirk:) will bring with it positive and negative ramifications.

Interesting side note: Its only through the experience of suffering that it is possible to transcend suffering altogether... or something... :lol:

Other interesting side note: I have a very early memory of taking packages of crackers and munching the hell out of them, not actually eating them, just crunching them up with my mouth and making a huge ass mess, and I believe I had a fork thrown at me... or perhaps they are unrelated incidents, as they both happened when I was really young... Anyways, I certainly stopped doing it, and regardless of whether or not it was the correct or preferred way for one to go about interacting with me as a result (as if there is any one way to interact :tongue:), I still stopped acting in that way and eventually came to understand exactly all the dynamics of the situation..... :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4102345 - 04/27/05 10:46 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I feel that usually if you explain to a child that knowone likes to suffer, and that certain actions that they carry out have a painful effect on others, the child, being the open spongne that it is will naturally develop his/her own conception of morality which will far outway any pain induced idea of right or wrong, becuase when you inficlt pain upon a child you are cuasing that child to associate his actions with his/her 'own' mental/physical suffering and not that of others, which goes a little something along the lines of "If I do this then I will recive pain" instead of "If I do this, then it causes others pain, and i know what pain feels like so i dont wish it upon others". The spanking method is just another link its devlopment of selfishness, ignorance and negative habit patterns and attitudes. And of course if the child is travelling in this direction by the time it reaches puberty all of these aspects ill be greatly exaggerated as its emotional capacities develop and grow causing the common teenage rebellion.

There isNEVER any need to inflict suffering upion a child for misbehaviour, usuaslly, if you parenting skills are good then all you will need to do is explain the situation in terms of cause and effect and the child will automaticly see the error of his/her ways, allowing for a compassionate expansion of the childs mind that will hopefully continue to develop rapidly from puberty into adulthood.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4102396 - 04/27/05 11:09 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In my experience, not very many children, at such a young age, possess conceptualization skills adequate enough to understand such. Eventually, they will be capable of understanding perfectly, but there are certain situations where it might be necessary to associate pain with certain actions as to avoid situations where their life will be threatened. These associations will later be transcended, just as a bird will be thrown from its nest... :grin:

Obviously, every single person in this thread has justified using pain to influence a child's actions. The discrepancy is if physical pain in this regard is ever necessary. Perhaps sometimes it is. *shrugs* :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4102493 - 04/27/05 11:39 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

In my experience almost all of the young children i have come accorss posses an intuition and openess that seems to have been lost in most adults. Children are like sponnes and you would be supriesed at the breadth of the concepts they can grasp (of course this depends on whether the parents have made them ADD sugar junkies yet). If you communicate with a child on an equal level, i think you would be pleasantly suprised how intuitve and intelleigent they are.

Of course they do not yet possess the linguistic skills that us adults have developed over our time on this planet, but basic communciation of an intuitve nature communicated on an equal and linguisticly rudemenstary level can brigde the seemilngy huge gap in "maturity" to come to some common understanding.

Children are underrated, taken for granted as human beings, and bumped, shoved, prodeded and pulled into the conditioned misery we call "adulthood". All this can be changed if we ourselves can open up and communciate on an equal level as human beings with our children instead of treating them as second class citizens or prehuman beings as if they are not whole human beings, then maybe we can cut the chain of cause and effect that propells us to try to fill the void and develop some enlightened beings instead of another generation of human robots. Its exactly becuse we were rasied in the manner stated above, that we are so fucked up as a specicies. It all relates back to how we we programmed as children. Do we really want to repeat our parents mistakes?

The whole reincarnation recongnition in Tibet is'nt something mystical like they make it out to be. The child from the beginning is cut from his/her programming and then undergoes a training so precise and rigourous that the child wakes up very early to his/her enligthened nature. The the child is then stabilized in this state and later assumes the role of his/her predecsor. Whether you belive in reincarnation or not its quite clear that the child had no choice other than to become an enlightened being from the very beginning. Im not saying that this is what we should do. But if we can at least treat a child with equal respect as a fellow human being, and teach the child well about openess, equality, repsect and personal responsability then at least he/she will have a better chancce at turning out to be at least a good human being if not an awakened one. :shocked: :heart:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

Edited by egghead1 (04/27/05 12:13 PM)

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Autonomous]
    #4102626 - 04/27/05 12:26 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Auto,

It's not about my daughter being different. Give me anyones kids who has a listening problem and within minutes to hours, I can have them listening to me. It's not rocket science, just uncommon common sense.
Go back to the header here and look at what it says.

You said , "what about when they are babies?" Babies do not walk yet and cannot run out into streets and parking lots. Once she started walking, every time we were near one, I repeated the safety instructions and why I gave them. Every.........Time until I saw she started saying back to me, "Mom, I know and I don't want to get hit by a car." It takes time attention and energy to use the methods.

It's about methods that are proven and work on any child. The advocates for saying there is another way to raise self disciplined children without the need to hit them are familiar with the methods out there being used, by child psychologists and even a teacher here who handles what? 22 different kids a year and says they work on all and are widely used.

Your argument aout my one child being different is absolutely MUTE regarding disccsuions of methids for non hitting that work.

You don't have a case here auto for saying even spanking is the only and best way.  Your way is old school and we all know it's way in theory or lived under it. You are not sharing with us anything new.  We all know how the induction of physical pain works as a deterant to manipulate and control people. Its flawed. Don't talk to me like I just fell off a trunip truck. I took mental notes all through my own uprbringing, spent 10 years studying child development before I had my daughter and continue to and have 8 years under my belt with her and about 25 desling with other peoples kids as a care taker either through teen age baby stitting, my nephews or play dates with my daughters friends.

This is the MOST important topic to me on the planet-child rearing. I am a stay at home mom who home shools. I was hit as a kid and you will NEVER get me to agree with you that it is the best or only way to go because I already proved that wrong to myself in my own experience.

You can use pain and maybe get short term results until desensitization kicks in followed by rebellion and power struggles and or withdrawal and depression. WHY do that if their are others way and you don't have to, to get even better result without the negative side effects of using pain?

To be honest, I can no even imagine laying a finger on my child and being the cause of hurting her and making her afraid of me. It's my job to protect her from be harmed. If you think you can convince me thats its the only best way, you are so wasting your time.

Psychoactive was open to understanding more so I will continue,

I gave an example of setting guidelines and giving fair warning of an imposed consequence and the importance of consistent follow through for raising children to listen without the need to hit.

I said the methods are mostly used for prevention and setting up the trust and respect that keeps you from  even having to enforce the consequence most of the time because, they will usually listen in the first place.

Here is an example of how to establish trust and respect for your judgment in making decisions for them would go. Parents have many opportunities a day for working at establishing this sort of relationship and it takes, time, energy, patience and your attention.

My daughter was around 4 and one day asked me if she could cut her dolls hair. I asked her why she wanted to. She said she thought she had to much hair and would look prettier if it was cut.  I said to her, "you know, I felt the same way about a doll I had when I was around your age and I cut her hair (relating to her feelings and letting her know, I understand and hear her) I told her that I cut the dolls hair and immediately thought she looked ugly. I ruined her and didn't want to play with her anymore. She was my favorite and my parents couldn't afford another. It was a mistake that I learned from and never did it again or wanted to.

Then she said, "Well, I think Chloe will be prettier and I want to cut her hair, can I?" I laughed realizing this was one of those things she had to learn and experience for herself to get it out of her system and it wasn't a life or death issue. (Choose you battles wisely and say the big guns for the life and death issues)

So I said this," She is YOUR doll and you can do with her what you want (giving her guided control over things of her own-kids need this to learn responsibility, cause and effect consequence and how to use their own power instead of always being told what to do by another power.) I said to her, " I will not tell you that you cannot, but that I think you will not like the results when you are done like I didn't and I won't go buy you another doll if you don't.

I also told her that under no circumstances is she ever allowed to cut the hair of any one Else's dolls but her own. And we had yet another small chat about respecting other peoples property and feelings.

So she cut the dolls hair. Not long after she asked me if we could go buy a new Chloe. I laughed. I said, "what? she looked ugly and you don't want to play with her anymore right?" She mumbled a yeah.

Then I asked, "Do you now see that I did not advise against it because I didn't understand your feelings or wanted to be mean but because I knew that would probably happen? Do you see how you can trust in my judgment? She concurred.

Then I said to her, "I told you that if you didn't and didn't like it, I wasn't' going to buy you a new one ad you said you understood that and agreed to the deal." I said to her, you can use your allowance money and I will take you to get a new one or you can wait a few months for Christmas to ask for a new one instead of something else. She said, "Well, I have been saving my allowance for something else I really want. I guess I will wait till Christmas."

Here was now an opportunity for me to be consistent with the follow through of the consequence I set up, give her a chance to take responsibility for her actions, reinforce her trust in my judgment and give her use of her own power again to make a corrective decision with it.

She never cut a dolls hair again and learned a lot from that experience. She was given leeway under guidance. Even though I was ultimately in control, she was allowed to be in control of herself and doll under guidance. Because I gave her the use of her power and control, she had nothing to power struggle with me over-NOTHING. There was never a power struggle.

A parent who spoils, over indulges and gives to much unguided leeway, would've just said "sure, go ahead. You want a new one now? Okay, lets go by it." :lol: They are out there and their kids have em by the balls and they turn into spoiled brat terrors.

A control freak parent who doesn't relate to or respect their kids would've said "NO, don't you dare!." And then yank the scissors away.

That kid would have stewed with that one. After all, it is their toy isn't it? Kids need to feel a sense of ownership over some things. The kid would've entertained thoughts of their parent being mean and not understanding of them or never letting them do what they want. They probably would've stewed over it. They may have repressed all of those bad feelings and if the scenario repeats, you may create a kid who ends up depressed, withdrawn and uncaring about life.

This parenting style creates the kid who may rebel and say, "you can't tell me what to do" and cut it anyway and then get their ass beat for it. Or, they may say, "okay, I'll show him his way. When he asks me to clean my room or eat my beans or be nice to aunt sally tomorrow I will say NO to him and see how he likes it." The power struggle will just ensue somewhere until the kid feels like they have use and control of some.

Another type of common scenery is where the kid may have learned from their parents to throw a red faced screaming temper tantrum until they get their way or exhaust themselves.

A $9.99 doll being ruined to afford her that whole learning experience was WELL worth it.

There was one other time I can recall where she chose against my guidance and she was right to do it from hindsight. I'm not perfect or always packed with energy and patience to perfectly deal with every moment of the days, but I give it my all and have made some bad calls and we learn and laugh about them same as from hers.

She was 3,had just gotten a new toy and brought it to the club house pool. Another girl was there and asked to play with it. Arielle always shred and was taught to share. This one time, she didn't. I was mortified. I aid to her, "Arielle, you know that if you bring toys out to public places that you are expected to share them with other kids because you know that's the considerate thing to do. You don't like it when other kids don't share their toys right? She was quiet. I said to her, "It's yours and you don';t have to share it, but if you won't it goes back in the pool bag and NO One plays with it or we go home where you can play with it by yourself. She said without hesitation." Lets go home" She loooooooooooooves the pool. I was shocked. I realized later that that toy was 10 minutes new and she hadn't even had a chance to bond with it yet. My bad and I learned that brand new toys don't go out of the house until she is willing to share them.

I apologized to her later for how it all went down and she beamed at realizing I finally understood. I should've said, "If you bring this brand new toy to the pool, you will have to share it. Are you willing too or do you want to stay home and play with it alone for a while." Live and learn. We don't know it all as parents and make mistakes too. Kids need to see that and how we also learn and grow from and with them.

I'm glad to be reading the arguments here for hitting because the ones who are , are giving me so much fuel to get my book going again. Thanks! I forget how many out there still think its the only way.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4102809 - 04/27/05 01:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
It's not about my daughter being different. Give me anyones kids who has a listening problem and within minutes to hours, I can have them listening to me.



What if the child is INCAPABLE of comprehending?

Quote:

You said , "what about when they are babies?"



NO I DIDN'T. There is a point in many a child's development where he or she can walk, but cannot be reasoned with. Please don't criticise me for things that I didn't say.

Quote:

Your argument aout my one child being different is absolutely MUTE regarding disccsuions of methids for non hitting that work.



All children are exactly the same? Back in the real world...

Quote:

You don't have a case here auto for saying even spanking is the only and best way.



I NEVER SAID THAT. If you are going to critique my statements, try actually reading them and responding to the actual content of my posts.

Quote:

Don't talk to me like I just fell off a trunip truck.



Why not, it's obvious you must have been doing something other that reading and comprehending my posts?

Quote:

I was hit as a kid and you will NEVER get me to agree with you that it is the best or only way to go because I already proved that wrong to myself in my own experience.



There is a WORLD of difference between a slight smack on the bottom to quickly get a child's attention and hitting them. That you fail to grasp the difference shows that you still have to work through your experiences.

I hope the home schooling of your daughter will involve teaching her better attention to detail and comprehension in her reading assignments than her mother exhibits.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Offlinemygodisme
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Autonomous]
    #4102868 - 04/27/05 01:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

The entire reason for spanking my child is to get her attention. When logic and reasoning fail, because she isn't mature enough to reach these conclusions on her own she must realize that as the adults, we have set the rules and she must follow them. The way to bring her attention back to that, when nothing else works, is to give her a smack on the bottom and say "Listen to me."

I sat my kid down yesterday afternoon and discussed with her about how her father and I discipline her. I asked her if she felt that we were fair, and asked her if she thought spanking her when she misbehaved was bad. She responded with a no, she did not believe getting spanked was bad, and that, "Honestly, mama, it doesn't really hurt, it just embarrasses me!"

I asked her why she believed we spank her, and she said to the effect of 'sometimes I am really bad and don't listen to what you say and keep being bad so you spank me and then I listen to you.'

I asked her if she felt the way we discipline her is fair. She told me that she believes we are very fair with her, because we always give her the chance to correct what she was doing. We also are consistent in our discipline without going overboard on the little things (if she forgets to put her socks in the clothes hamper, for example, no matter how many times we tell her we don't spank her; we keep reminding her, and explaining to her why it is important she keep her clothes in one place).

In this case, a smart and mature seven year old understands the reasons behind her punishments, does not believe they are unfair, and, while she doesn't like being punished, realizes that if she does something bad she needs to get punished (and punishment in our house is usually a lecture from me...punishment enough)

I asked her if she believed that spanking was hitting, and she said no. I asked her if she thought I had ever hit her, and she said no. I asked her what the difference between spanking and hitting was, and she smacked me on the shoulder and said that was hitting, and spanking is a couple of times on the bottom.

Can you actually believe that this a child who, having been reared with spanking as pretty much the last option, will grow up to be angry, violent, whatever? She has never hit another child, she has always shared happily, she gets along well with other children, she has never had a problem with another child whatsoever.


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I've seen the infinite. It's nothing special.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: mygodisme]
    #4102894 - 04/27/05 01:48 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mygodisme said:
The entire reason for spanking my child is to get her attention. When logic and reasoning fail, because she isn't mature enough to reach these conclusions on her own she must realize that as the adults, we have set the rules and she must follow them. The way to bring her attention back to that, when nothing else works, is to give her a smack on the bottom and say "Listen to me."

I sat my kid down yesterday afternoon and discussed with her about how her father and I discipline her. I asked her if she felt that we were fair, and asked her if she thought spanking her when she misbehaved was bad. She responded with a no, she did not believe getting spanked was bad, and that, "Honestly, mama, it doesn't really hurt, it just embarrasses me!"

I asked her why she believed we spank her, and she said to the effect of 'sometimes I am really bad and don't listen to what you say and keep being bad so you spank me and then I listen to you.'

I asked her if she felt the way we discipline her is fair. She told me that she believes we are very fair with her, because we always give her the chance to correct what she was doing. We also are consistent in our discipline without going overboard on the little things (if she forgets to put her socks in the clothes hamper, for example, no matter how many times we tell her we don't spank her; we keep reminding her, and explaining to her why it is important she keep her clothes in one place).

In this case, a smart and mature seven year old understands the reasons behind her punishments, does not believe they are unfair, and, while she doesn't like being punished, realizes that if she does something bad she needs to get punished (and punishment in our house is usually a lecture from me...punishment enough)

I asked her if she believed that spanking was hitting, and she said no. I asked her if she thought I had ever hit her, and she said no. I asked her what the difference between spanking and hitting was, and she smacked me on the shoulder and said that was hitting, and spanking is a couple of times on the bottom.

Can you actually believe that this a child who, having been reared with spanking as pretty much the last option, will grow up to be angry, violent, whatever? She has never hit another child, she has always shared happily, she gets along well with other children, she has never had a problem with another child whatsoever.




This almost makes me cry. You've already conditioned her into believing that sometimes she is a 'bad' person. I can see the teenage depression coming a mile off. Maybe if you just quietly sat down and explained to her how sometimes her unruly actions cause a negative emotional reaction within yourself she would better understand why its important for her to listen to you when you are talking to her. The same applies for any given situation. Then this encourages her to look at her actions and how they effect others instead of beating herself up for being a 'bad' girl when she makes a mistake. You are raising your daughter up to be just another human robot, well done! Maybe if you spanked her less and treated her as an equal human being you might be giving her a chance to develop her own morals, responsibility and awareness.

The only thing smacking her is doing is reinforcing a belief that their is somehow some element of badness inside of her that you are punishing her for (be it physical pain or psychological pain embarrassment). I feel quite sad with this chain of events. What makes you think that you are somehow Superior and have any right at all to instill fear in your child. Of course the child is going to think that its in her best interest, she trust you with her life for god sake! read my previous post for parental guidance, i am truly sickened by your lack of parenting skills. And i cant believe that you are trying to "mature" a seven year old, this makes me almost vomit.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

Edited by egghead1 (04/27/05 01:55 PM)

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Offlinemygodisme
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4102936 - 04/27/05 02:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

My child is quite well aware that she is not a bad person. We have explained to her many times the differences between a person being bad and actions being bad. It is easier for a child to grasp the concept of "When I misbehave I am being bad" than "When I am misbehaving I am doing an action that is bad."

The only "conditioning" I have given her is that she needs to stand up for herself and think for herself. Until we took her away from her birth mother (who was allowing her at the time four year old daughter to partake of marijuana, acid, etc. and thinking "Oh, this is just fine!") she cringed every time you tried to tickle her, you could not joke with her at all without her crying, and the idea of leaving her alone in a room terrified her.

I have now "conditioned" her to the point where she realizes that she is her own person. She realizes actions have consequences. She realizes that our house has rules, and if she breaks those rules, there are reprocussions that follow.

In the entire time we have had custody of my daughter she has been spanked less than five times. However, she is a normal and healthy child, and gets into mischief like they all do; so, for the past 4 years, spanking less than five times...that doesn't equal a lot, does it? Oh, and the less than five times is between her father and myself combined. 2 people, four years, five times... do the math.

As for the rest of your attempt to make me feel bad about myself by calling my parenting skills lacking, etc., perhaps you should try practicing some of that unconditonal love you are preaching and instead of telling me what a horrible person I am for smacking my kid on the rear a couple of times because she lied about something another kid did that got him into trouble (and if you had any idea of how many times we have talked to her about lying you would fully understand...lying is not okay, it is never okay, she should never lie to us or anybody else. That has been since day one in our house and she broke the rules to get this boy into trouble because she did not like him).

So, I will forgive you for being hateful and rude and mean. Despite your hatred for your fellow humans who do what instinct and logic tells them to do when rearing their children, I still feel the love for you.

Take care


--------------------
I've seen the infinite. It's nothing special.


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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Autonomous]
    #4102966 - 04/27/05 02:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

LOL,

I knew you were going to bring up my grammar and spelling. The topic here is on relating to children and has moved into using physical force as a disciplinary tool. It's not about MY poor grammer or spelling. No kidding mine blows.

While I was typing up that last reply, I was putting moe enerygy and attention into helping her drill for a spelling test. She got a 100%. I also teach gramar from a grammar text, not my bad habits, if you care to know.



Well, you all have a right to spank and teach the virtues of spanking, just be wise about not doing it in public...........remember the walmart parking lot mom, her kid in foster care and her in jail.

My poor mom now sees how me and my two brothers with kids raise them without physical force or "spanking" and use consistant follow through and how well it works and she feels soo bad for what went down in our house. She just shakes her head and mumbles, "I didn't know there was another way"

Whack away the old school way if you must. :whack: 

:heart: :peace:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: mygodisme]
    #4103015 - 04/27/05 02:22 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mygodisme said:
My child is quite well aware that she is not a bad person.  We have explained to her many times the differences between a person being bad and actions being bad.  It is easier for a child to grasp the concept of "When I misbehave I am being bad" than "When I am misbehaving I am doing an action that is bad." 

Explain to me now, what is the difference, i can't wait to see this one. What is the difference between a "Bad person" and someone who commits "Bad actions"?

The only "conditioning" I have given her is that she needs to stand up for herself and think for herself.  Until we took her away from her birth mother (who was allowing her at the time four year old daughter to partake of marijuana, acid, etc. and thinking "Oh, this is just fine!") she cringed every time you tried to tickle her, you could not joke with her at all without her crying, and the idea of leaving her alone in a room terrified her.

Thats sad, she most certainly has a better life with you, thats for sure.

I have now "conditioned" her to the point where she realizes that she is her own person.  She realizes actions have consequences.  She realizes that our house has rules, and if she breaks those rules, there are reprocussions that follow. 

That sounds reasonable, but the reprocutions should never be physically or mentally damaging

In the entire time we have had custody of my daughter she has been spanked less than five times.  However, she is a normal and healthy child, and gets into mischief like they all do; so, for the past 4 years, spanking less than five times...that doesn't equal a lot, does it?  Oh, and the less than five times is between her father and myself combined.  2 people, four years, five times...  do the math.

Considering the background and math,s it is the lesser of two evils (compared with leaving her with the neglegent mother). But it still doen'nt make it the best course of actions at all and I dread to think what of you call normal. [

As for the rest of your attempt to make me feel bad about myself by calling my parenting skills lacking, etc., perhaps you should try practicing some of that unconditonal love you are preaching and instead of telling me what a horrible person I am for smacking my kid on the rear a couple of times because she lied about something another kid did that got him into trouble (and if you had any idea of how many times we have talked to her about lying you would fully understand...lying is not okay, it is never okay, she should never lie to us or anybody else.  That has been since day one in our house and she broke the rules to get this boy into trouble because she did not like him).

Did i say that you were a horrible person? A little bit of an assumption on your part dont ya think? As the for the rest of your comments, i will just say this. You just wait until she hits puberty, then you will see the result of your parenting skills. I was just expressing my feelings, i never intended to make you feel horrible, but if thats how you felt, then perhaps it was for a good reason and you should investigate the cause of that feeling.

So, I will forgive you for being hateful and rude and mean.  Despite your hatred for your fellow humans who do what instinct and logic tells them to do when rearing their children, I still feel the love for you.

Sheesh what a bucket load of false assumtpions ended with a holier than thou statement.  I apoloigize if you thought i was rude, i was only expressing my deep concern on the matter, and i can assure you that i felt no hatred toward you, just  deep sickening sadness right down to the pit of my stomach. Of course you will always love your child, no matter what you do to her.

Take care

You too  :heart:





--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

Edited by egghead1 (04/27/05 02:37 PM)

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: tomk]
    #4103471 - 04/27/05 03:57 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"I agree with Huehuecoyotl, everyone should beat kids to death."

You have taken me out of context and put words in my mouth. You apparently read none of my other posts on this thread where I discussed respect and reason. Once again I want to hear of evidence of your righteousness. How many kids you got and did any survive to adulthood?


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4103483 - 04/27/05 04:01 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I will ask again.(I have asked you before) How many kids have you raised? How many are adults? I back up my methods with practical experience not untested theory. I get the feeling that most of the people here who advocate that spanking is cruel are not experienced parents.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4103503 - 04/27/05 04:06 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have none to speak of. But i live with my brother and his child, so i know what im talking about. There are many other parents who ive met who share the same views as me, all of which have raised ,respectful, responsible human beings into adulthood, most of which have grwon up to be who i would consdier very spiritually evolved people . its the parents lack of patience which is at fault, not the child.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4103511 - 04/27/05 04:10 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I agree with your view here in every respect. Children should have limits that are well defined and clear, as well as a clearly defined consequence to associate with those limits in a consistant manner. To do anything else is a disservice to the child if not outright neglect.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4103519 - 04/27/05 04:13 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Seeing your brothers children IS NOT hands on experience at parenting. Neither is babysitting. You must be a 24 hour a day parent sfor a few years to understand these issues correctly. I do not wish to be rude, but until you have had that experience you are merely guessing and plying untested theories. In this area I know my shit very well. My results support my method.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4103543 - 04/27/05 04:23 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Ummm no, my brother is disabled and as such i do most of the childcare and general work around the house, and i ahve been for the past 5 years. The theory is not untested as i have many many parents who are close friends of mine who swear by this method, uphold it and develop/ed 'with' their children becuase it brings the results i have stated. I do not wish to be rude, but in this area i also know my shit very well. My results also support my methods, although they are not accepted into the social 'norm' becuase of three main factors, ignorance, fear, and arrogance!

People belive in the other stagnant, immoral and dammaging methods becuase its all tha they know, we''ve been doing it since forever, thats why we are so fucked up, and have many mental, social and environmental problems as a species, their is little respect and equality in the world today, and i would bet all my money that President Bush was taught from a very young age that violence in some situations was ok, hell he probably even went hunting!!!!


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

Edited by egghead1 (04/27/05 04:29 PM)

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4103839 - 04/27/05 05:55 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I have 17 years of parenting. All of my kids are great students, and are respectful of others. They also are creative individuals. I know people who raise kids without setting limits...the kids are disrespectful monsters. Once again you are NOT a parent. What is wrong with hunting? I believe in participating in the cycle of life and death directly, on a spiritual level, instead of as an observer. BUT that is another matter.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4103914 - 04/27/05 06:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
I knew you were going to bring up my grammar and spelling.



:rolleyes:  What kind of medication are you on?  I brought up NOTHING about your grammar and spelling.  On the contrary, I brought up the subject of your READING COMPREHENSION.  You attributed things to me which I did not say... and with this post, you've done it again!

Quote:

Well, you all have a right to spank and teach the virtues of spanking, just be wise about not doing it in public...........remember the walmart parking lot mom, her kid in foster care and her in jail.



Again, you have demonstrated an exceedingly poor grasp of the concepts I am trying to convey.  Please, try re-reading my posts and getting AT LEAST the gist of my ideas, not what you think I might be saying by only skimming the first sentence.

Quote:

Whack away the old school way if you must.



I NEVER said anything about whacking the old school way.  It is amazing that someone can appear so lacking in comprehension... have you even read my posts all the way through?  Perhaps if you take off your emotional blinders, or at least move them to the side of your head instead of directly in front, you may find that you can read the words as they appear on your screen and not as you imagine them.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Autonomous]
    #4103992 - 04/27/05 06:37 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Maybe my comprehension sucks too then. Remember, I was also hit a lot as a kid.

Auto, what do you want from me? A gold medal for justifying spanking children?

You are not going to get it no matter how much you criticize my reading comprehension.

There is NO justification for it in my book. NOTHING you say to justify it maters to me. I speak in this thread to say, there is another way not to agree with the spankers.

If you are okay with it and want to teach its virtues to others go ahead. I think its barbaric, obsolete and inhumane, doesn't mean you are, I think the practice is. If that bothers you then maybe its because deep down you agree. If it doesn't bother you then why do you keep fussing here with me in need of my approval or something?

If I am not comprehending your justification as being that, so what.

The other members here are comprehending what you write so why repeat it to me if all I hear is "It's okay to spank children". Save it if you're trying to convince me its okay.



Hue Hue, why not go back to your original post which was excellent and did not involve spanking children.

You taught to treat them with the respect you would an adult.

Hue Hue, do you spank your co-workers as a last resort for poor work performance? :lol:

Ahem


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (04/27/05 06:44 PM)

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4104503 - 04/27/05 08:11 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

My original post was dealing with children in a middle school. My own children get that treatment as well. When they were younger a traditional spanking was also employed at times. By traditional I do NOT mean beating the hell out of them, but over the knee with my hand. I did not inflict much pain, but I intended to show them the outer boundaries of my limits. Just because it is not painful does not make it less shocking. It was the ultimate expression of my displeasure. Unlike many here I was NOT abused physically as a child in any way. I did not fear that I would lose the ability to control myself when spanking. I NEVER let a child get me truly angry. I see myself as a guide...but one who demands respect. Needless to say my children are too old for this type of conditioning these days...in fact it has been several years since they have even been severely, verbally reprimanded. This is because I treated them with consistency while setting definite limits. My original post stands, but that is only one aspect of my method. I reiterate I have three children that are as near to perfectly well behaved, free thinking, creative and intelligent as is possible. You cannot tell me I was wrong because my personal experience tells me otherwise. So, your belittling of me has no impact. It is very apparent that you are also reading my posts selectively. I did state earlier that it had been over 8 years since handing out a spanking...but there is a time and place for them just as there is a time and place for encouragement and respect. I am not a one-trick pony. My co-workers are my peers...not small (under 7 years) children...and not my children, BUT if I could get a way with it I would spank a few of them just for chuckles.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4105576 - 04/28/05 12:16 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Look, you idiots.

DONT HIT KIDS.

If the kid lacks the conceptual ability to understand an idea like not running in the street, the kid also lacks the concuptual ability to understand the limits you place on spanking. In light of this lack of conceptual ability, the kid cannot understand the concepts involved in why you are hitting them. Because they lack conceptual abilities, they learn hitting = OK, because they see parents do it and the other concepts go over their heads.

If the kid does have the conceptual ability to understand the limits you place on spanking, he can understand the concepts involved in not running into the street or whatever.

I repeat. Don't fucking hit kids. It's simple.

Look at what you are doing. You are hitting kids. Don't do it. Ever. Fuck.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: tomk]
    #4105590 - 04/28/05 12:20 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Another enlightened post. :crazy:

Make the distinction between hitting and spanking please.

Might want to review what is being stated and make sure you are clear as to what everyone is getting at.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4105711 - 04/28/05 01:12 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

"Make the distinction between hitting and spanking please."

All third basemen are baseball players.  Not all baseball players are third basemen. 

Likewise, all spanking is hitting.  Not all hitting is spanking.

If you touch a child with the intent to cause anxiety or fear or pain in that child, you are abusing them.  All spanking has the intent to cause anxiety or fear.  Never touch a child with the intention of causing anxiety or fear or pain.  Ever.  Simple!

It's very simple.  I understand the arguments that sometimes a child will not have an anxiety response when they should (running in a street), etc, and that the parent needs to provide it.  This is basic stimulus response.  What the people who advocate this fail to realize is that timing is so important for stimulus response learning that even if the spanking comes immediately after the behavior.  The child will not associate the spanking (response part of stimulus response) with the right stimulus.  This will fuck up the kid.  Childrens minds are tremendously open.  You do not have the ability to assure the spanking attaches itself to the right stimulus in the kids head.  If you think you do, you are deluding yourself.  Even if, sometimes, a kid would benefit from that response to avoid a dangerous behavior, you do not have the ability to line it up right with the stimulus response in the kids head.  The kid might assosiate the anxiety with you, and become distrustful.  Anything could happen.  You guys are extremely arrogant if you think you can line this up right so the kid learns what you think you are teaching him.

Look, when you spank a kid you are intentionally inflicting anxiety on that kid.  DONT DO THAT TO KIDS.  EVER.  If you cannot figure out how to raise kids without hitting them, don't have kids.  It's very simple. 

If you cannot figure out a way to stop your kid from running in the street without spanking them, let the kid see you get run over.  The kid can learn from that, and you deserve to die anyway for thinking about hitting kids.  :mad:


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Re: Relating to Children [Re: tomk]
    #4105777 - 04/28/05 01:56 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

:rotfl: Thanks for suggesting that I should be fucked up as a result of how I was raised :smile:.

Sorry tomk but you can please be more specific?

"If you cannot figure out a way to stop your kid from running in the street without spanking them, let the kid see you get run over. The kid can learn from that, and you deserve to die anyway for thinking about hitting kids."

Maybe explain this comment, and while your at it, tell us a little bit more about the reality where you're from.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4105793 - 04/28/05 02:14 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
:rotfl: Thanks for suggesting that I should be fucked up as a result of how I was raised :smile:.

Sorry tomk but you can please be more specific?




I didn't suggest you should be fucked up as a result of how you were raised.  I just suggested that any hitting opens a kid up to being more likely to be fucked up then if no adult in that kids life ever deliberately inflicted anxiety via threat of pain on them.  I don't think all kids who are spanked are fucked up, only that no one can tell beforehand if spanking a kid will fuck that kid up, so no kids should be spanked.

But, I think you are fucked up as a result, too.  You think hitting kids is sometimes OK.  Thats fucked up.  Dude, it's simple.  Hitting kids is not OK.


Quote:

Maybe explain this comment, and while your at it, tell us a little bit more about the reality where you're from.




It means DONT HIT KIDS.  In my reality, no one should hit a kid.

See, I was hit as a kid too.  My parents thought as yours did.  The difference was that my parents, being human, weren't 100% all the time and sometimes got too mad.  After a few years, they got less good at inhibiting their responses.  I don't remember all that stuff too good, but I have a memory burned into my head (close to my first memory, wasn't till 3rd or 4rth grade) of my dad throwing some kitchen utensil at my mom in a dispute over the limits of disipline, while I was about to get punished, and that utensil causing damage to the wall when it missed.  This is burned into my head.  The good guy who does love me just put a hole in the wall because he disagreed with my mom about how hard to hit me while I am about to get hit.  Two good people, who thought spanking was appropiate disipline for a pain in the ass kid, had a momentary lapse, like all humans are prone to.  They got divorced soon thereafter.  They sound exactly like you when you talk about spanking.

Fuck people who hit kids.  You fail to realize that, as humans, you will sometimes fuck up, and that because of this, you must never allow any violence against kids.  While you are practicing spanking, it is possible to boil over to a point you could scar the kid forever.  If you think you can control your emotions enough to never have this happen you are wrong.  It might be the case that you never fuck up your kid.  However, sometimes some sychronicity could happen where you just boil over one time, and fuck up the kid.  As a consession to your human nature, you must say "If I allow violence against children, then I, as a human, may make a mistake in the application of this violence, momentarily lose my temper, and hurt the kid forever.  So, I, as a human who makes mistakes but does not want to permantently hurt a kid by mistake, choose not to use violence against children."  You are arrogant if you think you can never mess up at applying violence to kids, and, further you are wrong.

DONT FUCKING HIT KIDS.  :whack:  Please.  As a kid who was fucked up by this sort of thing, please, do not do it.


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Edited by tomk (04/28/05 02:20 AM)

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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4105890 - 04/28/05 04:03 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
I have 17 years of parenting. All of my kids are great students, and are respectful of others. They also are creative individuals. I know people who raise kids without setting limits...the kids are disrespectful monsters. Once again you are NOT a parent. What is wrong with hunting? I believe in participating in the cycle of life and death directly, on a spiritual level, instead of as an observer. BUT that is another matter.







How can they have respect for others when you are teaching them that its ok to kill and harm fellow sentient beings? Hunting is the slaughter of innocent fellow sentient beings who have just as much of a right to live as you or i. I dont see how you can consider yourself spiritual of you inficlt suffering and commit acts of violence against others. Remember President Bush calims to be a deeply "Spiritual" person. I never said that setting limits was bad, but once you begin to say that violence is OK then you have already fucked up BIG TIME in the parenting department. You have opened a can of worms my frined, and i would'nt be suprised if one of your kids decides to join the army to practice his shooting and bag some Iraqi's. Read my previous posts on parenting and you might see some glaring common sense shining through, although i fear it may be too late for you and your offspring.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

Edited by egghead1 (04/28/05 04:26 AM)

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4105961 - 04/28/05 06:11 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Hunting is a necessary means for us to regulate the population of animals, who, no longer having a real predator threaten their existance, are unable to regulate their own population. It is the for the benefit of the animal species being hunted as a whole, instead of a starving, diseased death from overpopulation. Not to mention the sheer amount of money that hunting raises for wildlife and habitat protection... :grin:

It is amazing to me that hunting is seen as violence when it is, quite simply, nature's way of sustaining life. Checks and balances, otherwise a species would become cancerous to its environment and produce the inevitable destruction of both itself and its environment (hey, reminds us of us, and the fact that we have no natural predators keeping our population in check, which is apparently what we sorely need :smirk:).

Apparently the whole notion of the life/death cycle is flawed, as the death aspect of it is violent? Just as everyone and everything has an innocent right to live, it has an innocent right to die. It is a natural order, it seems to be a universal order.

The fact is that we've already disrupted our environment and the balance which sustained that environment. Out of fear of our own death, we've nearly eliminated the prospect of other preadatory species, thereby also removing the check that keeps other species in balance. It is therefore our responsiblity to act as that check to keep that balance, and in doing so, we have met widespread success, ensuring the healthy maintenance of a variety of animal species that, without us acting as that check, would overpopulate, thus destroying their environment when that species places too high of a demand for food, and eventually, destroying themselves in painful, suffering deaths full of starvation and disease.

Seriously, we already fucked up nature's equilibrium to such an extreme degree, the least we can do is fufill our responsibility to restore it.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4105981 - 04/28/05 06:38 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Hunting is a necessary means for us to regulate the population of animals, who, no longer having a real predator threaten their existence, are unable to regulate their own population. It is the for the benefit of the animal species being hunted as a whole, instead of a starving, diseased death from overpopulation. Not to mention the sheer amount of money that hunting raises for wildlife and habitat protection... :grin:

Sport hunters argue, often vehemently, that they are true conservationists. However, conservation in the hunter's mind seems to mean ensuring an adequate supply of targets, often at the peril of non-hunted native species. A recent study in the Wildlife Society Bulletin cites numerous examples of hunter groups resisting and even impeding efforts to restore native wildlife or to protect biodiversity. According to the World Conservation Monitoring Center, 29% of avian species and 54% of mammalian species currently threatened or endangered are still jeopardized by hunting. The U.S. Sportsman's Alliance -- the largest sport hunting lobbying group in America, representing more than 1,000 sportsmen organizations -- has attempted to dismantle the Endangered Species Act and actively promotes polices that destroy wildlife habitat. How is this consistent with conservation?

It is amazing to me that hunting is seen as violence when it is, quite simply, nature's way of sustaining life. Checks and balances, otherwise a species would become cancerous to its environment and produce the inevitable destruction of both itself and its environment (hey, reminds us of us, and the fact that we have no natural predators keeping our population in check, which is apparently what we sorely need :smirk:).

It is my  hope that when hunters come to truly empathize with the animals they wound or kill and see them as sentient beings -- as many hunters eventually do -- they will stop hunting. The evolution toward a more compassionate relationship with animals is evident and should be commended. Hunters would do well for themselves -- and the animals they purport to conserve and revere -- by also making this great leap forward and calling off the hunt.

Nature is always seeking balance, it needs no interference from us, it is our interference in the first place which has thrown this planet into the state it is in already. When will people see that causing needless pain and suffering to sentient beings is not the way forward, but is a barbaric act, which belies any justification, we should be trying to help them, not kill them in the name of help  :confused: .


Apparently the whole notion of the life/death cycle is flawed, as the death aspect of it is violent? Just as everyone and everything has an innocent right to live, it has an innocent right to die. It is a natural order, it seems to be a universal order.

Everyone has the Right to live and die respectively. But as human beings we should be seeking to evolve past our primitive animal instincts to a higher, more compassionate state of awareness.

The fact is that we've already disrupted our environment and the balance which sustained that environment. Out of fear of our own death, we've nearly eliminated the prospect of other predatory species, thereby also removing the check that keeps other species in balance. It is therefore our responsibility to act as that check to keep that balance, and in doing so, we have met widespread success, ensuring the healthy maintenance of a variety of animal species that, without us acting as that check, would overpopulate, thus destroying their environment when that species places too high of a demand for food, and eventually, destroying themselves in painful, suffering deaths full of starvation and disease.

So what you are saying is that we should kill to preserve certain species. What a load of horse drivel.

Seriously, we already fucked up nature's equilibrium to such an extreme degree, the least we can do is fulfill our responsibility to restore it.

The balance will restore itself if we leave it be

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4106307 - 04/28/05 09:26 AM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

egghead1 said:
Sport hunters argue, often vehemently, that they are true conservationists. However, conservation in the hunter's mind seems to mean ensuring an adequate supply of targets, often at the peril of non-hunted native species.




Perhaps a lot of hunters are only egotistically interested in conservation as a means to ensure they still have animals left to kill, and perhaps endangered species might be threatened by hunting (just as endangered turtles are threatened by cars driving down highways...). However, one cannot deny the sheer amount of money that, through government taxes and regulations on hunting, go directly back into habitat restoration and the management of animal species. Protecting and upkeeping wildlife refugues requires money, investigating and punishing poachers requires money, studying animals and seeking solutions to problems that threaten species requires funding.

Not only this, but regardless of whether or not one determines it violent (nature certainly doesn't, it seems to be a necessary, natural law), the numbers of a species need to be properly maintained and kept in check. At the beginning of the 20th century, white-tailed deer were close to extinction, perhaps a population of only 30,000 deer, but now the white-tailed population is at least 100 times that, thanks to hunting and conservation programs. The same exact effect has occured for turkey, other deer, ducks and geese, etc. etc. etc. Proper hunting regulations and conservation ensured a dramatic increase in these species populations, and hunting serves as an effective manner to manage that population, to prevent overpopulation, which would produce dramatic, negative consequences for both the species and their environment.

Quote:


It is my  hope that when hunters come to truly empathize with the animals they wound or kill and see them as sentient beings -- as many hunters eventually do -- they will stop hunting. The evolution toward a more compassionate relationship with animals is evident and should be commended. Hunters would do well for themselves -- and the animals they purport to conserve and revere -- by also making this great leap forward and calling off the hunt.




Native Americans had a deeply spiritual respect and regard for animals, and yet they continued to hunt. They understood the delicate balance of nature and their role within that, and they continued to hunt. It is an integral aspect of nature, and they lived in balance with that. 

Quote:


So what you are saying is that we should kill to preserve certain species. What a load of horse drivel.




Regardless of your projection, that is essentially what I am saying, and it is proven that it works. :wink:

Quote:


The balance will restore itself if we leave it be




Indeed it will. Disease. Starvation. You speak of truly emphasizing with animals, and helping them, as they experience pain, and are equal beings. Thus, I find it strange that you would allow a horrible fate that they do not deserve, a long and suffering death by starvation and the ravages of disease, to agonize them just because you do not feel we should take the responsibility that we have for them. Nature is not some utopia in which animals all live in peace and harmony, without death or an intricate system transferring energy that is necessary for a balance that preserves life and its continuation. We can consciously manage these species populations, as it is beyond their ability to do so, or we can let nature do it by itself, with disease and the ramifications of overpopulation, both of which will also negatively effect other species, including ourselves. Its our choice, do we interact in a manner that will ultimately bring less suffering on the species' population as a whole?

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4106973 - 04/28/05 12:39 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I can reason why he said you were fucked up by it. You yourself said this and it deeply touched me and is what pulled me into this discussion, "I deserved to be spanked".

That is how you were fucked up. You didn't deserve it but somehow you believe it. What did they say to you for you to believe that you deserved to be bullied? That is all it is, bullying.

How big is an adult? How big is a child under 7? How hard is it for an adult to intimidate a small child and to instill fear in them, to instill ideas in them that they are worthless, bad, and deserve to be spanked? It's called bullying and it's easy and cheap to do.

The hard thing to do which requires energy compassion and patience is to not bully them.

Here's what I think. Those of you who said you were just spanked and think it's okay to spank, I think you are kidding yourselves. I think you bought into being deserving of it and that part of you that felt it to be "not right" was stuffed and repressed because it is extremely difficult to cope and face the idea that these people who are suppose to love, care for and protect you could do that to you.

Any CHILD being "spanked" will tell you at the time that they do not feel loved or cared for when being spanked. They will tell you that they feel any or all of these emotions....afraid, unsafe, shammed embarrassed, violated, worthless.

It gets stuffed because we want to believe we are loved and cared for and are safe in their protection. How can you believe that when they cause trauma to you? One HAS to fuck with ther own head to be able to do that.

As we grow, some justify it as a means for coping and adopt the idea that, "they did it because they loved and cared for me and for my own good."

But there is yet that child in you , that felt differently when it happened. The day comes where those that have tricked themselves have children and they in turn spank them. Whats really happening is that the repressed anger for being spanked and embarrassed and made to feel bad and scared is being directed at the child, the easy helpless target when you really mean to aim it at YOUR parents for doing it to you.

Satire~ Where do we put all of these pent up stuffed emotions that are crying for release and relief. Ahhhhhhhhh, into our own children, YES. That's what my parents did and they were right to do it. I deserved to be hit and so they must too, yes. I tricked myself into believing that's how to show love and care and so I will show my children how much I love and care for them. Jr.! I said NO! :whack: Ahhhhhh it felt good to get that pent up emotion out after all these years. Jr. Do something else so I can get more off my chest. Jeez, this feels good. I have to keep my cover.


"You know JR. I only shamed you, made you cry, get angry with me and fear me  because I love you and you deserved it for being bad and disobeying ME.

The parent is Really saying (my ego couldn't handle getting ignored by a small child whom I regularly ignore which is probably why they did what they did in the first place but I will keep that secret to myself so I don't have to be "wrong" as a parent and stuff it as well.

And of course, my parents did it to me and I still haven't faced how fucked up it was, yet, I need to deal with it somehow so I need to react/replay the buried drama out onto you JR. until I finally "see and feel how warped it is and "get it"

This warped mind fucking cycle of self deception is so creepy how it works and slithers its way through the generations going unnoticed by many still, skeeves me out. It's like an invisible infectious dis-ease.

This is why they call it a chain, a cycle that is hard to break, because of the lies many tell themselves to cope and deal with their "spanking" trauma inducing abuse. 

Spanking is abuse. I can't believe how I am seeing spanking and inflicting, physical mental or emotional trauma and upset being justified under such a cute little word like "spanking". "Well, it's only "spanking", it's not like I hit or beat them."

I only had 2 drinks, it's not like I finished the bottle, says the alcoholic. I only stole one shirt, it's not like I took a jacket and pants too says the thief. I only spanked them, it's not like I beat them says the bully.

Define the difference between spanking and hitting, someone asked? They are both means to inflict trauma and upset. The only difference is that spanking is the politically correct word for child abuse these days.

I want to know the difference between kids who were hit and think it was warped BS, that they didn't deserve, and those who think it was right and just and that they did deserve it.

That is what I would like to uncover here to gain an understanding of, how it is that anyone could publicly say that "spanking is okay and just and that kids deserve it sometimes"

Tomk and whoever else applies, how come you and I know we didn't deserve it and have no justification for it and  others feel they did and are able to justify it?

I want that key in my hands and I want to run around the planet and unlock every chain of child abuse and traumatizing still going on out there.

It is a no wonder so much of the adult U.S population is doped up on anti-anxiety meds at epidemic proportions. If you can't feel safe in your own childhood home with your own parents, where can you in this world? My sister and one brother is on them and the other brother uses alcohol to numb the chronic anxiety.

It's not a joke, yet it is funny in that it was so simple to prevent.

None of them are deluded about how fd'up it is to "spank" children at least and the other two who have children don't do it.

All I can think of that would explain why we "got it" and broke the chain and some keep passing it on is this;

Some parents did cause trauma and then said to their kids, "we did it because we love you and care about you and for your own good." I think that's a part of the mind fucking, brainwashing, programming that perpetuates the cycle.

Mine never said any of that and they never even said "I love you". I got to see it in the pure naked raw truth without the window dressings and pretty fancy coverings for what it was-passed on and repressed trauma and abuse they suffered from as children.

My dad was so fucked up by it at age 67 he has said stuff like this, "If I deserved it then so do you because it wouldn't be fair for me to have been hit and not you." Sounds like a little kid, huh? The little kid who is still in pain at age 67 from it just like those justifying it with their fancy window dressings.

He never confronted his parents about it, instead, he justified it and followed the bully route and confronted us with his stuffed pain by unleashing it onto us instead.

Me and my sibs have all repeatedly confronted our parents of how fucked up it was and how they fucked us up. Just the same as I confront ANY adult doing it.

The healing from it isn't easy. I don't even know how well one can heal from it maybe that's why it gets passed on so easily.

For those of you who throw out spanking your kids so proudly and easily, let me say "thanks for the memories". They don't go away. Every time I see or hear parents do it, the memories come up and I get another chance to do more healing. This is the first time I have talked this much about it and haven't cried, even a laughed a few times so progress is being made.

Tell me proud spanking parents, WHY the bleep do I at age 36 need to be healing from something like this?

Tell me why at age 36 when my gentle loving husband is casually changing his clothes I have to experience FLASH BACKS of TERROR when he removes his belt?

WHY?

What could a little girl have possibly done do deserve having to carry these memories through life?

My sister and I use to joke about "dads Pointy" shoes, "his fancy" work shoes. We always hoped he wouldn't be wearing those when he kicked us. He'd be at work and a pair would be under his dresser and we would pick them up and look at how benign they were. Just shoes. They couldn't hurt us when they were off his feet. They became weapons of mass destruction when he wore them.

Once, he kicked her so hard when she was 5, because she got up to go to the bathroom from being made to sit still and quiet in the corner, she flew into a chair she was kicked so hard and busted her lip open. Then she got beat with the belt for crying because her lip was busted.

See, we got hit harder until we stopped crying like he did. I just figured I might as well share all of these memories you pro spanker's brought up in me.

Lets talk derservance and worth? You want to know what I was told I was worth as a kid? Less then a brown paper lunch bag.:lol: My sister and were "playing shoe store" and used some paper lunch bags. My mom came into our room and screamed, "You GIRLS! I need those for lunches this week." That's all my dad had to hear from the other room and in he came with his pointy shoes to kick us around hard for playing shoe store with moms brown paper lunch bags.

They were worth more then our creative play, our mental and emotional stability or sense of feeling safe and secure in our own home, our bodies safety our thoughts and feelings. We didn't know it was wrong to use some for play. No one told us. What did we do wrong? I still don't know? They were still usable for lunches. WTF?

We lived in so much fear and anxiety. We never knew what we were going to get hit for next.

Those of you being proud spanker's, I wonder if you also spank in public places. Have you ever considered that someone like me who was hit sees you do it and has to do all I can to keep it in until I get out to the car where I can cry for your children because I CAN RELATE TO THEM. That's after, I would have confronted you asking you to please stop it, until you stopped it.

One mom threatened to pull a switched blade out on me if I ever again told her to stop beating her two year old girl, "with the little girls own belt" for fussing. She threatened me with physical violence in front of her other 4 older kids. She said, "white people are creating columbines because they don't beat their kids".

That ignoramus wasn't even intelligent enough to know columbine happened because the kids were being bullied in school and no one stopped it, no one made the school safe for them. The kids doing the bullying of course, were taught the skills from their parents like that mom was teaching her kids to do with belt beatings and threatening me with a knife in front of them. 

Listen to what my psycho dad recently did and he is proud of this story. He was in line at a store and some lady was "spanking" her kid and another lady intervened to stop it. My dad went up to lady who stopped it and poked his finger into her front shoulder repeatedly telling her to let that lady raise her kid as she sees fit and to mind her own business. He is such a freaking bully, picking on compassionate ladies in stores to make sure that little child gets beat just like he did to keep it fair.

So some of you are proud to say you use spanking as a disciplinary tool. Ever consider where that pride comes from? Ever consider that it is compensating as the voice of the child within who felt proud to be able to take spankings when you were kids?

Well, if you're repeating the cycle, you didn't take it as well as you thought you did, you're just passing the filthy dollar along. Accept that filthy dollar once and for all and clean it up man.

I can keep my daughter from watching violent examples on TV but I think it's bullshit she has to watch children having their rights violated in public in this day and age. I thought we were civilized people with unlimited access to information including methods for raising children without the use of "spanking" here in the U.S.

I got a parental pride story for you. Once in Macy's, my daughter saw this 6'4" 320 pound man spanking his little girl. She was 6 at the time and ran up to him with no fear and told him to stop it because he was hurting her. He did at least for that time. I bet the little girl felt good that someone spoke up in her defense against that giant bully. I was looking at shirts and I saw my daughter bolt into the isle and "take care of that other little girl." That was a proud moment.

A 6 year old had more compassion sense about her then that big bully man.

Who do these kids have to defend them from parents who violate their rights to not be physically assaulted by their own parents? Some one has to speak up in their defense.

Why is constructive parenting not being taught in high schools?

Why why why why why why is it still happening when we know so much now? How do we get the message and info out there? How do we as civilized people stop the chain of "spanking" abuse once and for all? When does the healing even get to begin for so many people caught up in the cycle and when does the need to even have anything of the sort to heal from going to stop?

I know the spanker's are not getting anything from this post, but seeing as how this thread entitled RELATING TO CHILDREN has almost 900 hits now, maybe some parent yet to be will and maybe for anyone who believes they deserved it, just maybe, maybe it will sink in for them to face it and admit that they didn't and let the healing begin.

It's a sickness, a dis-ease passed on from generation to generation wearing fancy clothes and cute little words like "spanking" and phrases like "for your own good and because I love you" to cover it up.

That's why even though it did happen to me, I can see it for what it is. I didn't see the monster in the disguise of fancy clothing. I just saw the monster.

Monster.........that's a funny word to ascribe to a human. I just pictured my dad with fur, big fangs and claws and started to laugh. He's just a scared little boy when it comes down to it because he saw the monster without the fancy clothes too though he has yet to begin conquering it as it still has a hold on him.

I HAVE A DREAM..........where one day, all the citizens of the world will face and conquer their demons and we will live in the peace and freedom from the fear and anxiety and grip they have over so many.
:heart:

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4107497 - 04/28/05 03:19 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Well, I am tired of discussing this. I have been hailed as an enlightened being, called an idiot, and ultimately classed a baby beater. I have nothing more to say on that topic, so I'll leave this one to you guys. Hunting and meat eating is off topic, but a good subject due to the fact that it will be a source of conflict...so that is my topic of my next thread.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Relating to Children [Re: tomk]
    #4107583 - 04/28/05 03:38 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

tomk said:
Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
1) I didn't suggest you should be fucked up as a result of how you were raised.  I just suggested that any hitting opens a kid up to being more likely to be fucked up then if no adult in that kids life ever deliberately inflicted anxiety via threat of pain on them.  I don't think all kids who are spanked are fucked up, only that no one can tell beforehand if spanking a kid will fuck that kid up, so no kids should be spanked.

But, I think you are fucked up as a result, too.  You think hitting kids is sometimes OK.  Thats fucked up.  Dude, it's simple.  Hitting kids is not OK.

-----
2) It means DONT HIT KIDS.  In my reality, no one should hit a kid.

See, I was hit as a kid too.  My parents thought as yours did.  The difference was that my parents, being human, weren't 100% all the time and sometimes got too mad.  After a few years, they got less good at inhibiting their responses.  I don't remember all that stuff too good, but I have a memory burned into my head (close to my first memory, wasn't till 3rd or 4rth grade) of my dad throwing some kitchen utensil at my mom in a dispute over the limits of disipline, while I was about to get punished, and that utensil causing damage to the wall when it missed.  This is burned into my head.  The good guy who does love me just put a hole in the wall because he disagreed with my mom about how hard to hit me while I am about to get hit.  Two good people, who thought spanking was appropiate disipline for a pain in the ass kid, had a momentary lapse, like all humans are prone to.  They got divorced soon thereafter.  They sound exactly like you when you talk about spanking.

Fuck people who hit kids.  You fail to realize that, as humans, you will sometimes fuck up, and that because of this, you must never allow any violence against kids.  While you are practicing spanking, it is possible to boil over to a point you could scar the kid forever.  If you think you can control your emotions enough to never have this happen you are wrong.  It might be the case that you never fuck up your kid.  However, sometimes some sychronicity could happen where you just boil over one time, and fuck up the kid.  As a consession to your human nature, you must say "If I allow violence against children, then I, as a human, may make a mistake in the application of this violence, momentarily lose my temper, and hurt the kid forever.  So, I, as a human who makes mistakes but does not want to permantently hurt a kid by mistake, choose not to use violence against children."  You are arrogant if you think you can never mess up at applying violence to kids, and, further you are wrong.

DONT FUCKING HIT KIDS.  :whack:  Please.  As a kid who was fucked up by this sort of thing, please, do not do it.




1) FFS make up your mind.

2) Don't allow two peoples fucked up rendition of a method fuck up your view of it forever... why, if we did that drugs would be illegal....

Part of the reason is because some people fucked it up ahead of time for all of us based on their example... :smile: However, if done in moderation drugs (just like spanking) is all good, you just need to responsibly assign limits. 

I fully understand where you're comming from (perspective wise), but I think that you need to be more realistic, and not so idealistic.

Once again, approach the example that I provided and explain what you would do.

http://www.classicalreality.net/On%20the%20Reality%20of%20Sovereign%20Ideals.htm


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4107599 - 04/28/05 03:45 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

gettinjiggywithit;

If you knew me, and saw some of the shit I still do today, you'd wish I was spanked more :tongue:.

I'm a very antagonistic person, and always was.

Believe me... I've no guilt in regards to actions. Nor do I have any form of complex/disorder that I deserve everything that happens... but I'm more then willing to admit that I did deserve my fair shair of spankings :smile:.

I'd rather you ask a question rather insinuate personality traits.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4107763 - 04/28/05 04:34 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

Had your parents done things differently, had they known a different way, I doubt you would have done whatever it was you think you deserved spankings for. I also doubt you would be an atangonists had they raised you another way.

I can be one, it comes along with the territory of being spanked and or not payed much attention to by parents. It becomes learned behavior for getting negative attention, the only kind some frequently spanked kids knew.

It probably also develops when you start telling them to "go right ahead" when they threaten to "spank". I knew this little smart ass girl, bless her heart, who at age 4 when her mom threatened to spank her for something, she bent over and offered up her ass. :rotfl:

We get tough, ballsy, antogonistic and thick skinned from it, thats for sure.

Okay, here's a question for you. More like a challenge. From what you remember of your childhood, what do you think your parents could have done differently to have raised a well behaved child instead of the "bad boy" you say you even still are?

Come up with prevention stuff and be creative. Did you ever take mental notes as a kid like see how your friends parents were different and wish yours were more like theirs or do you remember wishing they would be different and how. This is a creative challenge.

Please don't say spank you more. I got "spanked" for swearing and I still swear. It just doesn't work.

If any is to personal, PM it to me just for the exercises sake. It may be tough to do. You could have just been left to cry in your crib a lot and not remember the trauma that caused. Most seeds are set before the age of 3.:heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4107829 - 04/28/05 04:51 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I'm a "good guy" subjectively of course, however.... :wink: don't want to get in that. 

:shrug: They really couldn't have done anything to stem my attitude without restricitng my freedom to have it. So they were to either;
1) Allow me to have a free attitude/opinion yet, spank me.
2) Be even stricter and tell me what to think, and how to feel about a situation, which would outright prevent the behavior associated with the antagonism; but also it would deviate from the norm in respects to development of my personality. In short, I'd  be one of "them".

~It doesn't really matter, I'm happy with how I raised, and I wouldn't consider myself fucked up as a result of it, although as you know others would (tomk). I don't have any issues as far as aggressive, or criminal behavior that might be associated with the manner I was raised in... well, haven't been caught or been in trouble for anything aggressive or criminal, not that I've never engaged in them :smirk:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/28/05 05:08 PM)

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4107882 - 04/28/05 05:05 PM (19 years, 1 month ago)

I can relate to B. Like how I wasn't allowed to giggle in bed, but I was allowed to use my dads gun powder to blow up shit with m brothers in the back field.

I wasn't allowed to talk at the dinner table, but I was allowed to not do my homework. May parents never even knew if I had any or if I did it.

I got reared ended from both sides. Negative discipline in places it wasn't called for and zero constructive discipline in places where it was.

I am understanding what you are saying. Thanks for sharing!


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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