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Offlinegluke bastid
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Having Children if the world were to end
    #5299399 - 02/14/06 02:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

This is similar to moonshoe's post, which brought up a spin off question...

If you are convinced that the world is a bad place...that our current civilization is sort of a problem, a trap that humanity is stuck in and probably won't get out of unless there is total destruction...is it immoral to bear and raise children?

Or maybe morality isn't the question...I guess my question is, why would you? What is the point of bringing children into the world if you the only future you see for that world is its own destruction?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5299455 - 02/14/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Imagine if Jesus or Siddhartha's parents thought that way.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: Silversoul]
    #5299512 - 02/14/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Imagine if Jesus or Siddhartha's parents thought that way.




or Hitler's


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300169 - 02/14/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
Quote:

Paradigm said:
Imagine if Jesus or Siddhartha's parents thought that way.




or Hitler's



Hey, either way the fact remains: both you and your children have the potential to change the world.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: Silversoul]
    #5300212 - 02/14/06 06:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

But why would that be a reason to bring children into a civilization that you see as a failure? So you could somehow train them to become the next Jesus or Siddhartha so they could bring it down and free its people?

I'm interested in why people have kids...because for me I can only see arguments against it.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300259 - 02/14/06 06:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If you don't like civilization, change it. And if you can't change it within your lifetime, then instill the right values in your children so they can help change it.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: Silversoul]
    #5300280 - 02/14/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I suppose I don't agree with you that one person has the power to change civilization. They can try, but never succeed. Civilization and the power wielders at the top always win. It is like throwing rocks at the sun.

So maybe for the sake of argument let's say civilization cannot be changed. Would you still make babies?


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300309 - 02/14/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gluke bastid said:
So maybe for the sake of argument let's say civilization cannot be changed. Would you still make babies?



Yes. I like civilization, in spite of its flaws. I guess I'm just an optimist.


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Invisiblespud
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300339 - 02/14/06 06:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Learn to find solace in the ethereal, and teach your children the same. The material world is wicked indeed.


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Offlinelysergicide
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: spud]
    #5300481 - 02/14/06 07:45 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

the thing is, is that you will never know what will come out of it. and you cant try and think of it as like, "hey, what if my kid is effected by all this bad influence and turns into a gangster or a terrorist?"

but you also have to think that maybe one day he'll or she'll be a very important person to society & will help bring people out of the chaos in which they call life. you just have to raise them well, thats all. build them up strong and they'll stay strong.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5300661 - 02/14/06 08:25 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

On the one hand, you speak in hypotheticals and in between, as if you believe them to be real.

What has you so convinced humans will destroy themselves in this life time, or even the next 50 generations to come?

Can I ask if you watch a lot of the news or hang around a lot of negative, depressed or pessimistic people or depressive environments?

Look at your question this way. There are no guarantees as it is or ever was. We are all going to die, no matter what and we keep on keeping on.


Many people see all the good in the world and the good people doing good things and live in that goodness wherever they find it or just create it for themselves. Not everyone is easily side tracked by a biased fear based news media, or discouraged by dooms dayers. The news paints a narrow picture and just shows the bad. The good outnumbers it greatly.

However, if people feel this world is a lousy place that is doomed to destruction in the next decade or two then, I at least hope , they don't have children. Like a friend told me that her neighbor reamed her out for being a bad parent because she lets her 7 year old daughter play in her FENCED back yard, in a NICE middle class neighborhood unsupervised. (Stranger Danger Paranoia to the Extreme) .

The neighbor keeps her children inside all day, like prisoners of war because of her fear. She robs them of their young lives because she fears them loosing it. That makes no sense. Her fears cause her to act in the manor which she is afraid of. Its so silly when out her front door, good citizens are walking their dogs, jogging, riding bikes, gardening,  playing with sidewalk chalk, and in the park across the street. They are living.

I don't know where this fear of the world and living in it or the future comes from in some people, my only guess is the news media. It's a shame.  My daughter is almost 9, loves her life and is glad to be here and we are glad she is too. She thanks us for having her and for her life often.

Life is happening NOW. Thats all we ever have had to work with. Nothing is guaranteed beyond the moment at hand. People die everyday, some horrible deaths. That is nothing new. Knowing that doesn't stop most of us from living.

8 billion people and growing on a very large planet in its prime. I wouldn't under estimate what the will to survive and thrive of that many humans can change and overcome.

In all fairness and honesty, I use to think like you did in my early 20s and before and wondered why anyone would  bring a child into this cruel world. That was back when I had a bad attitude about it. As my attitude changed and the good and beauty in the world began to reveal itself to me, Love came and love always finds a way in and through. For the time my daughter has been here, she has brought so much joy, laughter, kindness and love into the lives of others. I'm glad I had a change of heart.

Her being here has caused my husband and I to care more about the planet and life  and to make positive change where we can where as before, we had no reason to and lived to be selfish. Now 3 human beings care because of her new young life, where before there were none.  See how cool it works.

If you truly believe we are doomed to destruction soon, why do you stick around living day by day? Why not end your life if you would keep another's from beginning just because of your fear? There must be enough hope, or good in yours and reason to be alive for you to have not offed yourself yet. Why can't your reasons for sticking around be the same for bringing new life into the world?

I really don't know how to answer your question, because, I am having a hard time imagining what it would even take to convince me that all of human life will be destroyed soon. The odds must be something ridiculous like
1 in 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.

Sure, the world has some flaws, however, the good of it and potential to come is worth fighting for and a new generation brought into this world raised to believe that, can make a difference. It will start with ours and how we raise the next one.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineNerdleWombanger
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5301306 - 02/14/06 10:52 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

If you are convinced that the world is a bad place...that our current civilization is sort of a problem, a trap that humanity is stuck in and probably won't get out of unless there is total destruction...is it immoral to bear and raise children?

Probably. If all you mentioned was true, creating more people would just be creating more people who will inevitably suffer.

What is the point of bringing children into the world if you the only future you see for that world is its own destruction?

Perhaps for your own sense of self satisfaction?


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5301889 - 02/15/06 01:47 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

my only questions are these;
is there a point to life? if so, great, accomplish.
if not, why continue?
what is accomplished by having children?
is humanity nessisary? does the joy in life outweigh the suffering?
is it the same for everyone?
HOW DO YOU KNOW?
since you cant know,
is it responsible to continue without knowing the circumstances?
whats wrong with voluntary extinction?
a lack of humanity is a lack of human joy, of course, it is also a lack of human suffering.
are we subjecting ourselves to reality unnessisarily?
is it worth it?
is it your right to decide?
is it mine?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: BleaK]
    #5302865 - 02/15/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Those were thoughtful questions for people to ask of themselves Bleak. You had me wondering why people who are starving, dying of Aids, live in absolute poverty, with no means to give a human a decent life, have children.

When I think of human suffering, I think of those unable to to get over the Victim mentality hump. I wonder why they bring children into the world, when they themselves haven't figured out how to navigate their way through life with a sense of personal empowerment, contentment to joy being the predominant factor experienced.

They still have a right too, I just don't understand why they bring on more life when they themselves are mostly suffering. For people who are living well, they obviously have better attitudes, self empowerment and optimism problem solving skills that got them there so why would they choose not to share it with new life?

No doubt, people who feel like victims of everything being beyond their control and live in suffering or severe depression of any sort and in fear of life, I wish wouldn't have children to pass that mentality and way of life on to. If THEY all stopped procreating and died off, we could rid the world of human suffering or shall I say humans that choose to suffer and make anyone they can suffer along with them.

There is a large population that appreciates life, enjoys it for the most part and gets through its trials and errors making the best of things and they raise children who live in the same manor. They have zero reason or incentive to end it all, believe it will end or that it even should end. Those that want it to end, should just bail out and leave the rest of us to enjoy this wonderland of plenty.

In the mean time, when we come across such people "poor" in spirit, we should ask them what in the hell their problem is and see if we can help them learn how to turn things around for themselves.

I can guarantee that the people having a hard time of life or who attempt to make it hard for others are indeed, poor in spirit. Even if they don't believe in and source from the aethereal divine sort, they feel what we know as team spirit or school spirit for humanity and life on the planet.

Say you were on a basketball team with enthusiastic players that were really good at it and loved the game and a team member was tripping on you all going, "We're going to loose the game, this game sucks, this team sucks, its not even worth playing, you should all just quit now, I am going to."

What would you do with that member?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5306219 - 02/16/06 10:21 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Oh..Jiggy, perhaps you missed something on this planet the last few years ?
I won't raise depression, but the ending of oil, the consumtion of rainforests, the rising depletion of living species, the global warming (melting of polar ice and extincion of the golf-stream), the pollution of nature, the missuse and supression of people, I think I could go on forever.... and you want to shut your eyes ?!?


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: Silversoul]
    #5306299 - 02/16/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Hey, either way the fact remains:  both you and your children have the potential to change the world.




Are you proposing that this reasoning suggests that one should multiply and be plenty? Simply by the fact that doing so creates a multitude of possibillities? Potential?

We are all capable of a great list of tasks and accomplishments. If I were to murder another tomorrow, the action has the potential to spring forth a landmark court decision that recognizes that there is no authority by which to judge, thus the dissolution of any law.

I would suggest exercising caution when approaching such decisions and making the choice based on solid, personal reasoning, such as the desire to bring forth a life that one can interact with for quite some time, perpetuating a great series of change and experience. We're discussing the formation of a new being here, the continuation of awareness, not ejaculating into the wind and dreaming of what might become. :smirk:

Quote:


Imagine if Jesus or Siddhartha's parents thought that way.




As if we have any means by which to speculate as to what the world might now be if one facet of existance occured differently. Within a magnificently complex mesh network of continous interaction and change, it is positively useless and not valid to prove a point in such a manner. Perhaps if Jesus was not born, we would all be better off. Mindless speculation bears nothing.

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5307060 - 02/16/06 01:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I appreciate your well thought out post, jiggy. I enjoyed reading it.

However, when I started this thread, it wasn't my intention to get a discussion going about myself and my views. Rather I wanted to talk about other people's views re: bringing children into a world that is not set up to take care of their fundamental needs as human beings.

I agree with you that you have to find the beauty and miracle of life and embrace it. It's taken me a long time, but I am able to do this most of the time. However all the things I embrace about life exist outside of the system. Loved ones...wilderness...music. I also believe that 99.9% of people living in the civilized world look at things the same way, as if they are somehow outside of it.

So you basically have this civilization made up of people who think they are individuals but really are all just unhappy little cogs in this machine that is destroying the planet and itself simply because it is too big.

So I throw it out again...why give birth to a cog? Why have a child if it is going to be born a slave? I can only sense a desire to have children if I knew that they were going to be free.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5307088 - 02/16/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Oh..Jiggy, perhaps you missed something on this planet the last few years ?
I won't raise depression, but the ending of oil, the consumption of rainforest's, the rising depletion of living species, the global warming (melting of polar ice and extinction of the golf-stream), the pollution of nature, the miss-use and supression of people, I think I could go on forever.... and you want to shut your eyes ?!?




Of course not. I read and watch the news. I keep my eyes on all the games being played on this planet.

I wonder why some shut their eyes to all of the good in the world and want to give up on it so easily. Many are working hard to get clean water and air acts passed, and polluters are being sued. Many are working on alternative fuel sources and autos. 50 new species of insects were just found in a cave in cali. Want the link?

Sure I get pissy when I see pictures of the rain forests being wiped out. Then, I realize, to complain, is to volunteer yourself to become a part of the solution. What are you doing about it all Blue?

Then what gets really whacked, is I will jet off on a plane somewhere and looking out the window, all I see are TREES and open lands. The cities and surrounding  suburbia and little towns are like small dots amongst all of the vastness of trees. Then I wonder what all this talk of deforestation and over population is all about. I think a lot of it is biased, limited focus, news media painting a BS picture of the broader reality at hand.

I do believe the governments like to keep the peoples in fear because scared people are easier to manipulate and control. I'm not buying into the doom and gloom fear machines. Fear just paralyzes people or causes them to act rashly. Some bodies have to keep their heads together, or else we would all be huddled and cowering in the proverbial corner.

Any of you can go cower in the corner if you want. I'll be going to the beach this week end and one of the things I do when i go is bring a bag and I collect trash before I go collecting sea shells and building sand castles. I'm alive now and scary scenarios are not going to rob my life or world away from me.

The dinosaurs were wiped out, but did that stop human life from existing here? Should it go down like this- "Joe, you fucking selfish idiot! You just killed the last Saber tooth Tiger. THAT'S IT! Were all doomed. Everybody gather around now. Time to drink the poisoned kool aide."

Really, is that the attitude to have? 

Whats with the give up so easy attitude?

Support those working for the health of the planet and its inhabitants and those working on alternative fuel sources. Recognize the good and support it. Get to it yourselves where and when you can. Spread information about constructive solutions and what people can do to help create positive change if you care. If you don't care, then, what's the hub bub for? 

I see no constructive point or purpose in self induced depression, fear and negativity nor attempts to induce it into others.


:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5307120 - 02/16/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Granted I am speaking for the neck of reality I inhabit, and I see children having more freedom and opportunities for a grand life now then EVER before.

I wonder what makes you believe people are unhappy in life? Most everyone I know off the internet anyway, enjoys it over all.

I don't understand what you mean when you say children's fundamental needs as humans can not be met. Can I ask where you live that children are shelter less, food less, clothless, school-less, and health care less? 

True not all children of the world are provided these things, and thats a crying shame because they all could be. For those who can provide them that and much more, unconditional love, compassionate warmth and patience being vital ingredients, I see no reason not to have them, if you are moved to.

I don't understand why those who can't provide at least the above do. Sometimes I get pissy and want them all sterilized. That feeling only lasts for minutes. Then I settle down and realize, the last thing I want is to play God over other peoples lives.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5307140 - 02/16/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Some families in extremely poor countries have as much children as possible to reap the benefits of some governmental programs. There should be a cap on the amount of children allowed; no doubt about that. What the hell is the point of having 12 kids knowing 6 will probably die an unnecessary death?

The world as we know it, will end this century. There is an impending oil crisis, we have gone past the point of no return for global warming, and theres far too many people to keep order and balance.

Sometimes pain is necessary for growth.

Your perspective is spot on, however, jiggy. There is so much productivity and progression. The world will hopefully be restructured according towards a progressive attitude and that the survivors will learn from the mistakes of the past and a new world will be built around compassion and understanding. I intend to survive, and I hope you do too!


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5307166 - 02/16/06 02:06 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Well, I guess this really does all come down to one's personal outlook after all. :lol:

I guess I'm so used to thinking of civilization as a mistake that I take it for granted that other people do too.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


Edited by gluke bastid (02/16/06 02:12 PM)


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5307609 - 02/16/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

its not about "giving up" on life. its about questioning its usefullness.
is there a purpose to creating more life? WHY should anyone continue. even if we could bring children into heaven, we still wouldnt know what we were taking them from. is it our right? can i(should i?) force my children to be responsible for the life they didnt ask for?
IS IT NESSISARY?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Edited by BleaK (02/16/06 04:01 PM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: BleaK]
    #5308095 - 02/16/06 06:15 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Again, most people I know, myself and daughter included are glad to be here.

However, I personally have no doubts about eternal existence so to me this one life is just a nano second and not even that, compared to eternity.

I also have ZERO doubts that we choose to incarnate into bodies here. I have zero doubt that souls are lined up just waiting for bodies to open up for them to be born into. A lot of it is preplanned as many stay in soul groups and journey through same life times together playing different roles for each other.

Lately, many expectant mothers and fathers are getting pre birth visits from their children to come. I had many from my daughter, They were awesome.

Later I learned, it was a pretty common thing. People just don't talk about it in casual conversation or are careful who they share such an experience with. I think it was neat.

Knowing what I understand do be so, supports my enthusiasm for life here.

It's the hugest decision one could ever make as the responsibility and change in your life is beyond what you can imagine. Don't take it lightly that's for sure. I implore more to take it seriously because if people did, there would be next to no suffering people.



Anyone who hates life, can't handle it and can't make the most of its riches and wonders and wants it to end for all, definitely should not be having children. Its a no wonder why some with that attitude see it as forcing a life into hellish existance. With parents like that it would be.

Another doom and gloom post about life here went up today. I'm starting to realize, I am only hearing this attitude at the shroomery. Its making me wonder, how many of you may be clinical depressed and use drugs to alleviate it , hence, why so many depressed people are here. Depression is thick around this place.

I'm also curious if any depressive type drugs are causing the lousy attitudes. For those of you who think life, the planet and people suck and that we are all doomed, can I ask, what drugs, alcohol included, you use and how regularly?

We have a group energy healing post going at another forum to help people. I am going to put in request for you all who feel doomy gllomy to feel the LOVE, and have some experience soon that will turn things around for you! :sun: :heart:

I don't get whats going on here. I don't hear this talk anywhere else.

I'll share my daughters pre birth visits experiences with you here. This was back before I wasn't aware of much beyond the physical at all, except for what Catholicism taught me,(which much I debunked)  a few reincarnation books in my teens and some Buddhism & Hinduism books in my early 20s. I was a windsurfing bartender in the islands living for the day at hand and playing hard. 

The first visit was while basking in the after glow of some afternoon delight with the hubby, I felt a strong pull at my solar plexus. Then I saw a ball about a foot in diameter of deep golden dynamic sparking light. Like what a thickly condenced 4th of July sparkler would look like.

I then started to feel like something was tickling me and I started giggling. Next I heard the laughter of a young girl. I saw these beautiful and older serious looking angels off to the side.

Then it all faded. I turned to my husband and said, if we ever have children, the first will be a girl and I think I just met her.

Sometimes while making love, angels would be swooping all around. I could feel the breeze from their robes on my skin. It was wild. Then she started popping up and talking with me, telling me things saying we had to open the way for her to come in, and it was important that she be here, the planet was about to go through a huge change, stuff like that.

After one of those chats, which always seemed to happen in an after glow, I told my husband and he said with eye brows down, "I believe you, she just came and told me the same stuff". It freaked him out to realize something of an extra ordinary nature was going on. He shut off to it soon. He wanted to wait until we were better financially established and so did I.

She got on my case to get on his insisting that things would be okay and to bring her in and for him to open up to talking with her again. He wouldn't.

There were many of those like visits until she got us to get off birth control and then the visits began to lean more towards prepping me to carry and raise her. I was put through some high speed awakening growth and lots of instructions for how she was to raised.

A year and a half after that first visit, while basking in an after glow,  I saw a bunch of tiny light bubbles swirling all around the room. It was awesome. That was the day.

Years later, I found out lots of people were having similar experiences and were being told similar things. These kids wanting to come in want to come to help make this world a better place. They are looking for parents to be who will help them to do it.

Thats what got me into all of this spirituality stuff and reawakening and remembering more then just this life.

Thats the gist of it. And no I wasn't using any drugs back then either. It was a lot to swallow and I went into denial of a lot happening back then that I couldn't explain to myself.

Maybe that will help to explain a little of why I see this topic differently. :shrug:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5308971 - 02/16/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i certainly cant argue with the voices in your head.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: BleaK]
    #5309021 - 02/16/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:lol: Thats right, you can't!  :evil:

Why would you want to argue in favor of the destruction of human life and that it is going to happen soon?

Is that neccesary to do, wish to cease life instead of create new life?

What would be the point or purpose in doing that?

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5309104 - 02/16/06 10:49 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
:lol: Thats right, you can't!  :evil:

Why would you want to argue in favor of the destruction of human life and that it is going to happen soon?


why not, what do we have to gain here? aside from joy.
Quote:



Is that neccesary to do, wish to cease life instead of create new life?

What would be the point or purpose in doing that?

:peace: :heart:




to end suffering.

and yes i know im arguing for the end of joy as well.

or rather, im posing the question of the value of them both.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: BleaK]
    #5309244 - 02/16/06 11:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Realizing human potential is an awesome experience. So is making dreams come true. Sharing your life experiences with people you love rocks. That feeling of becoming creatively inspired and seeing what you can create and accomplish is a great feeling. I could go on all day giving reasons for appreciating this life experience.

What I can't do is argue reason for it with anyone who is depressed. :sad: I know that feeling too, went through it in my teens. Even the experience of coming out of that is awesome. :sun:

Remember you guys, Jim Jones in the 70s convinced people that the end of the world was coming soon and they should commit suicide so they wouldn't have to suffer through it. Well, its 30 years later and the huge portion of the last 30 years of my life as been sweeeeeeeeeet!

Jim Jones was full of cacca. :smile:

I think of all the good times and good things my family has experienced in just the last year alone. One year here can be so precious and awesome.  Moment by Moment life can be if you make it so. I just fought like a mother fucker to change my attitude around a long time ago. I got pissed off and vowed I wasn't going to let anyones bad attitudes including my own, (media especially) rob me of living life to the full and from making as many dreams come true as possible.

Every day, I kick my self in the ass to go for the max of living the good life within and without. The type of people you surround yourself with can make a HUGE difference. :yesnod:

Instead of wishing life away, why not just work to overcome the suffering parts and help others do the same? The good is worth it. It starts from a place in your heart. Look for it there. It knows the way.:discodance:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5309281 - 02/16/06 11:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

i do understand appreciation. i experience it.
the root of my question feels un-adressed still. i will leave it in its 2 or 3 verses in previous posts.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: BleaK]
    #5309333 - 02/17/06 12:20 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

You mean your question about its usefulness?

How useful is non existence? That is totally useless.

You'd have to start with also asking, relative to what, when asking for its use? What else is there to compare life's use to but deaths use? What is the use of death and non existence?

At least with life and existence, we get to decide HOW we are going to use it and what we can do with it. Realizing that, the adventure of discovery, including self discovery starts to call and inspire one.

Start with death and non existence. Now, BAM, you have your body alive and all of existence to work with. What can do with these two things? The options and choices are endless. We have the tools of creativity, intelligence, will power, imagination, raw materials, realization, contemplation, reflection, memory, foresight, and all sorts of forces of nature to work with.

How can anyone not see that as being something Awesome to get in on and USE any way they wish to?

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5309373 - 02/17/06 12:49 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

is the bong load half green or half smoked? :wink:


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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OfflineMiRrOr
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: Silversoul]
    #5309572 - 02/17/06 05:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Paradigm said:
Quote:

gluke bastid said:
So maybe for the sake of argument let's say civilization cannot be changed. Would you still make babies?



Yes. I like civilization, in spite of its flaws. I guess I'm just an optimist.





well im a "pessimist" with a sumwhat positive outlook on life/things in life, and i can confirm that one person does have the power to change society...

he/she may not be overthrowing the US government or anything like that, but can sort of implant positive values of COMPASSSION into their children...


--------------------
"i don't mind the sun sometimes, the images it shows....i can taste you on my lips and smell you in my clothes....cinnamon, and sugary, and softly spoken lies, ya never know just how ya look in other peoples eyes"


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5309930 - 02/17/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I :heart: live very much, too, that is why I am very mad about people who make this place a big shit, only for their personal pleasure.
I am not able to dance anymore.

You ask me, what I am doing about or against it. My next car will be one, which will run on vegetable oil. I work in a very special private company, with over 1000 employes which is entangled with military, private companies and civil departments. I work on a sensible position and I kept my mind from running totally insane by seeing what is happening there. Perhaps I will write tons of books about that, if I will find the time, haha. I see with my own eyes, what power and money can do to morality.
And people who go dancing while their neighbours will starve won't bring this planet or humans anybit more forward.
You know my mental state. Another thing I do is sharing this view. In the company where I work, I have to be more silent, of course, but soon this will change. Most certainly they will rip me in thin air, but...some things aomeone should not do or let be done to oneself, of course. That is the dilemma of money, dependence and morality.

Do YOU need money to live ? I think you said sometimes something like this. Then go to a place without people and try to live by money. Much fun with that...

If your beach will be nuclear wasted fo some million years or frozen over in summer, perhaps you will remember my words and stop wondering and start to understand..

Yes, but as someone said before, children are there to change this place to the better side, of course. We were tried to be  misinformed and ill-educated.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (02/17/06 10:23 AM)


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Offlinesecretmachine
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5310084 - 02/17/06 11:08 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I wish to add to this child thread we have going here. For me its not as if i dont want "\children but they take alot of responsibility, alot of money and a ton of time. Add that to the fact that our species is in no danger of dieing out (at least, dieing out due to nobody having children). Personally my theory is we are here to learn and grow and having children in todays world would only retard that self growth. If i didnt have children, i would have that extra money, time and energy to enhance my life, and others around me. Perhaps if i lived in a different culture where children werent such a big huge deal i would do it, but with our increasingly insane money system--no thanks.


--------------------
---
A civilization based on authority-and-submission is a civilization without the means of self-correction. Effective communication flows only one way: from master-group to servile-group. Any cyberneticist knows that such a one-way communication channel lacks feedback and cannot behave "intelligently."

the principle of authority" was the "eminently theological, metaphysical and political idea that the masses, always incapable of governing themselves, must submit at all times to the benevolent yoke of a wisdom and a justice, which in one way or another, is imposed from above."
"no one should be entrusted with power, inasmuch as anyone invested with authority must . . . became an oppressor and exploiter of society."


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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5310451 - 02/17/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"If you are convinced that the world is a bad place...that our current civilization is sort of a problem, a trap that humanity is stuck in and probably won't get out of unless there is total destruction...is it immoral to bear and raise children?"

Really stupid question. The world has always been fucked up in various ways. If your waiting for perfection until you have children, then take up masturbation as a life long avocation.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: secretmachine]
    #5310635 - 02/17/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Absolutely Secret the responsibility involved, to me, is as large as it gets. Though not all people who have children take it that seriously and its a no wonder we are where we are as a collective of humans. Priorities! Where are they?

I still don't understand why teachers are not the highest paid people on the planet and trained in more then just ramming facts down kids brains so they can pass the tests and get the schools more government money and we call this educationg the children to lead productive and constructive adult lives :confused:. I feel a rant coming on and I will spare you all of it.

To the general on this overall topic-

It is easy to find fault with all that is ass backwards on this planet if you look for it. I could write all day about that too.

The feeling passes quickly as I move my way back into appreciating all we have NOW that is good and into understanding, why some people in the world are hurting so much. If I let the down side of life get to me, I will just become another one of them, the people we think of being burdens and weights on this planet, the "suffering, needy, hopeless and impoverished".

Think of what it would take to do something destructive to the planet and humans. It would take, having no appreciation for it, or any sense of value of its worth or use. If thats the mentality anyone is in, they are in the same one that causes all of the crap here in the first place, even if they are taking a passive role self destructing.

Once someone gives up, they have no reason to work to turn anything around any more, mostly for themselves. I ask, where is the spirit in people? Pull it in if you've been denying its entry into your life. It is so powerful it can light the darkest of days, lift the heaviest of hearts, and break free the most imprisoned of minds.

People can get knocked down again and again, yet if they have the spirit to get back up, they will with its help and they'll start making new choices and avoid those that knocked them down before.

Hey Blue, ever hear of something called a Whistle Blower? ONE took Enron down and exposed its corruption. Are you implying that the company you work for has plans to wipe out masses of people, or destroy portions of the planet?  Please correct me on that if it is a miss-assumption. :confused:

And you plan to write a book about how you helped them do it after the fact? What are you talking about? I hope you clear that up.

Id my beach were to freeze over, I will Ice skate on it. The eskimos seem to be doing just fine.  :wink:

Have any of you come through hard times and adversity before, all the stronger and wiser for it? If you haven't then, maybe it is your time if you beleive so and there is nothing much I can do, save, give you words to draw from when the shit hits your fans. If your fans aren't even spinning anymore, the shit will just stick and bog you down even more. Get those heart chakras whirly birding and deflect it all away from you.

There are so many games being played out in this game world right now. I'm not clueless about the crap that is yet headed this way for people. It's always been that way. There are times lines where this planet has been blown up over and over again.

Learn to jump the lines with a shifts in vibration, with thoughts and feelings. Then you can become a time travelling tweeker of them, or a weaver of them, so many interesting things to do here once you remember its all a game of life and that everyone wins because spirit can never be lost, loose or destroyed. IT remains the eternal power behind it all. Align with it and Voila!

Nothing is etched in stone until its etched in stone and even then, the winds of time erode those etchings away as well. With new choices, you can shift to new time line branches and avoid it all and even shift to those where people are beyond surviving and are thriving with beautiful lives and futures to look forward too.

Choice is such a powerful thing and it can make or break you.

Thats what helps me to be able to read through threads like this and not get brought down by them. We were all given the free will to choose for ourselves what we will into being.

Some may say, "Why would I choose to go down with a planet set for self destruction?" I will say and ask,  "I don't know. Why would you choose that game plan?" There are many others to choose from if you change your mind or heart about that.

To each his own.

Life in spirit is eternal and beyond that, what can be destroyed was never meant to last. Enjoy of it while it is here and create more to enjoy with what is here and share it with others. When you find yourself in the life of spirit that is eternal, you are released from anything to fear, because it has nothing to fear. Instead, you start making choices based on all that is to love, respect and appreciate.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinerobmac9090
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5312384 - 02/17/06 11:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

jiggy, you have inspired me. I love reading your posts and agree with much of what you say.

I still may not be quite as optimistic as you are, but I think I have a much more positive outlook on the world now. I took a look back at the history of the last hundred years and I can see amazing accomplishments. We've gone from horses to cars, from smoke signals to e-mail, and from outhouses to toilets. People can create, communicate, travel, and experience in ways that would have surely seemed impossible in the past. After realising this, I can see now that the future holds amazing possiblities...and I think I would like my children to be a part of it.

However I am not ignorant to the fact that bad things have, and will continue to happen. Wikipedia tells me that over 60 million died in WWII, which to me is an incomprehensible number of lives. Even today there is so much hatred and anger from one person to another it is insane. I can't believe racism still exists, but I can't ever see it ending either (people probably said this about slavery too, so maybe there's hope).

Looking back now, I don't know what exactly I have to complain about. Even at the absolute worst, I will have shelter, I will have food, I will have my mind, and I will have this giant planet to explore. I think it's time to get out of my cocoon, find something I want to be a part of, and see where it takes me (and my children  :laugh:).

Excellent Topic!!


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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: robmac9090]
    #5312504 - 02/18/06 01:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:laugh: Indeed the best is yet to come to all those staying alive because life is a wonderful thing to be a part of when you choose living over being the living dead. Every time someone turns their attitude around like you did, the world has one less person trying to take us all down and out.

If everyone on the planet turned their attitude around to keeping focus on the good, being good and doing good, wars, poverity, crime, things to fear would all end.

I refuse to support lousy attitudes about a lousy world. Its lousy attitudes that create the lousy world they experience see and live in.

Sure, I pitched a mini bitch about the educational system, yet you won't here me cry victim or defeat. Where there is a will there is a way to meet your ideals and dream realities. I homeschool my daughter. :lol: There's a way through, around, and above everything that appears dark and daunting to a bright sunny side. And the spirit to find it will show you the way. It hasn't failed me yet.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5312633 - 02/18/06 02:28 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

My company sells technology. 95% of our employees are engineers or doctors of all kind of sciences.
I formerly said I entered the lions-cave, trying to wake up the victims and not wake up the lion. I will write about the mis-circumstances in regards of humanity, power and technology, that is why I entered there. Hehe, and I have material for not only one tiny book, this stuff could fill half of a library :wink:
It is incredible to see how power is structuring all this planet and tries to get grip on it more and more to disobey morality and humanity or else.
I definitifely put these values above the power...
Pure power corrupts extensively and our planet and humans future are in immense danger, compared to the ancient treats of poor technology.

Edit to the thread:Don't let your children be corrupted or don't try to corrupt them by yourself then it is all good to bear children :heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (02/18/06 02:47 AM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5313470 - 02/18/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for clearing that one up. :smile: I think I addressed what you see about technology as causing a back slide in skorps lazy thinking post. Fortunately, many are aware and work to keep pace and balance.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5316948 - 02/19/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"If you are convinced that the world is a bad place...that our current civilization is sort of a problem, a trap that humanity is stuck in and probably won't get out of unless there is total destruction...is it immoral to bear and raise children?"

Really stupid question. The world has always been fucked up in various ways. If your waiting for perfection until you have children, then take up masturbation as a life long avocation.




It's only a stupid question because you assume that I have any sort of desire to have children. I don't. I also don't think the world is, or ever will be, perfect. I'm not waiting for anything. Please don't call my question stupid. I am honestly just trying to understand why people are having kids. To me it just doesn't make any fucking sense and I am trying to get a grasp on what the motivation is. I literally cannot think of one argument for having a child.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine


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OfflineInsaneMetalMan

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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: gluke bastid]
    #5320140 - 02/20/06 02:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It's simple. If you believe in God, then here's the explanation. God created humans to live forever in a perfect, paradise earth. Adam and Eve fucked up, so we inherited sin from those assholes. God still plans on fulfilling his purpose for us, to live forever. Armaggeddon's going to happen. (And death will be no more, neither will mourning, nor outcry, nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.) That's a verse that says what it will be like after Armaggeddon. The good ones will be resurrected, and life will go on forever. Not too shabby.


--------------------
Bring on the answers, take away the pain.
I fight off the demons, that make me go insane.
Looking through the hourglass, I count down the day,
to look towards the next, to embrace it all the way.


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Invisibleshymanta
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Re: Having Children if the world were to end [Re: InsaneMetalMan]
    #5343026 - 02/26/06 09:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Children, if you raise them right will see the mistakes of their elders. Hopefully they can improve this shitty world we fucked up for them.


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