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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!


Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 10 months, 22 days
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children are childish..
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-------------------- Disclaimer!?
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Frog
Warrior


Registered: 10/22/03
Posts: 4,284
Loc: The Zero Point Field
Last seen: 11 years, 12 days
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Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: I usually indulge their interest by discussing these things enthusiastically with them and point them to reliable sources of information on these subjects.
It's great that you do this, with ALL the children. You never know with which child you are going to strike a chord and send them into the profession that has been dictated to them, as explained by Emerson in one of his essays on how we are all here to do something, if we just pay attention to the signs.
Quote:
I tend to deal with children by treating them as responsible humans. I have found that with my own children treating them as responsible people, instead of "children" has produced 2 responsible children and one responsible adult so far. So, I will discuss things with them on equal ground...not as an all knowing adult.
I do the same thing. Actually, I don't know how to talk down to children. I have always spoken to my children as if they could understand me. I would even use "big" words, even though they couldn't understand them, but they would always ask, "What does that word mean?
My 3rd oldest child, a boy who is now 17, had such a good vocabulary by the time he was 3 years old. I remember when my then-boyfriend first came over to my apartment to take me out and my 3-year old answered the door and said, "Hi, Michael, come on in and have a conversation."
Kids are smart, and they want to learn.
Quote:
A few teachers at this school have indicated their disaproval of this method. They feel that an adult should order the children around in a condescending, authoritarian manner, and that what they say is unimportant. I do maintain a sense of authority with my bearing, but I also try to relate to the child as if they were an adult. I have very few discipline problems with the children, and several known "problem children" get along with me just fine. What do you guys think about this. How should an adult relate to children?
I think you are handling kids perfectly. Don't let the other adults cause you to stray from what seems to be working for you. Treat the kids as if they were responsible people, and they will react in kind.
-------------------- The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire. -Teilard
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Don't get me wrong...spanking (not abuse) can have a place as a last resort punishment.
Would you accept a change in the traffic laws such that if you get caught speeding, the penalty is lashing by whip? If not, then what argument do you use to justify hitting a misbehaving child, and why doesn't that argument apply to you?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist

Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
#4097734 - 04/25/05 11:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Establishing Authority (who's boss)... IMO it's necessary to a degree; despite it not being the most rational approach, but it's the same with hitting a dog on the nose for biting... or rubbing their nose in a fresh pile of shit made on the carpet.
It shows that their is a direct consequence for bad behavior, once the fact is established, it needn't be carried on.
Why can't you just talk to your kids? Why can't we all just talk sense into the majority of the prison population? Their needs to be a punishment to fit the crime.
I was raised with spanking when I was a child, so I do realize the feelings associated with it. I suppose it also deals with the individual though. I can honestly say that I deserved most of my spankings (not a guilt trip or anything), as I was, and still am an unruly asshole at times ... but I've a greater sense of rationality to back up my actions now.
Just my $0.02.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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Jellric
altered statesman

Registered: 11/07/98
Posts: 2,261
Loc: non-local
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I think your approach is highly commendable. I use it myself in my dealings with children.
By all means continue to treat the children as responsible humans and maybe those so called "adults" you work with will grow up and adopt your teaching methods one day. (At least the ones whose true goal is to teach rather than indulge in a power trip. Those can rarely be taught).
-------------------- I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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but it's the same with hitting a dog on the nose for biting
No it's not the same. Children can spoken with, dogs cannot. Children can have privileges removed to encourage discipline, dogs cannot.
This whole thread is about relating to children as adults. If a child can be hit to enforce discipline, than so can an adult, but few adults who spank would agree to being hit as a form of penalty for speeding.
It shows that their is a direct consequence for bad behavior
So does locking up the X-Box and without violence.
Their needs to be a punishment to fit the crime.
Yes, but that punishment doesn't have to take the form of violence.
I can honestly say that I deserved most of my spankings
Would you deserve a whipping for speeding? If not, then I ask again: why does it go for a child but not for an adult?
Children who are hit don't learn discipline; they learn fear of retribution. The same result occurs (child behaves) but for the wrong reason. And in the long run, it teaches the child only that might makes right.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/26/05 10:49 AM)
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist

Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
#4097871 - 04/26/05 12:29 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: but it's the same with hitting a dog on the nose for biting
1) No it's not the same. Children can be spoken with, dogs cannot. Children can have privileges removed to encourage discipline, dogs cannot.
This whole thread is about relating to children as adults. If an child can be hit to enforce discipline, than so can an adult, but few adults who spank would agree to being hit as a form of penalty for speeding.
It shows that their is a direct consequence for bad behavior
2) So does locking up the X-Box and without violence.
Their needs to be a punishment to fit the crime.
3) Yes, but that punishment doesn't have to take the form of violence.
I can honestly say that I deserved most of my spankings
4) Would you deserve a whipping for speeding? If not, then I ask again, why does it go for a child but not for an adult?
Children who are hit don't learn discipline; they learn fear of retribution. The same result occurs (child behaves) but for the wrong reason. And in the long run, it teaches the child only that might makes right.
1) Rationalization doesn't alway work. You can talk to a dog, and it understands, yet doesn't always listen. Their is a heirarchy involved in the human order, just as in a pack of wolves (you can look to studies on chimp culture as they are the most similar)... I'm not suggesting that you beat the living shit out of the kid, but reprimand them to the degree that is necessary. Not everyone needs to be spanked, you can simply reason with certain people, however, you can't reason with everyone in the same fashion.
You can remove privelages from a dog as well. (privelages to snacks, locations, activities, etc...) I'm not saying in all situations to utilize one standardized way of training/teaching/reprimanding, but it is good to have a full scope of options.
Don't compare a child's mindset to an adult's, they don't have the full capacity to reason like an adult... reason with them according to their ability to understand. I'm not suggesting to spank all children, but it is an option. I'll relate to a child to the degree that they are able to relate to more mature concepts... same in the way of how I relate to a dog, as I don't attempt to have a legitimate discourse on philosophy nor religion with a dog, anymore then I do a child (I'd most certainly like to though).
The world isn't perfect, we can't relate to everything as well as we wish, so we have to adapt and develop forms that work. Pain is responded to by animals as well as humans (animals again), if you can give a perfect situation and a method to deal with all situation please do so and offer an alternative when rationalization, and restrictions don't work.
2) It sure does, however different strokes, different folks. I literally laughed at all the punishments I was given as a child. Even laughed when my mother busted out and threatened to swat me with a spoon. It doesn't always work is all I'm getting at (trust me, as I've always been very defiant to authority that hasn't proven itself through some means).
3) Agreed. It should be avoided at all costs.
4) I wasn't born an adult, nor did I possess my current understanding of the world, or my current mentality as I did when I was a child.
I'll have to disagree with your last statement. Read some of my posts, and look to some of my views... I'm fully against the notions of abuse and misuse of power as a result of possessing it. It has the potential to give off the message, but it also depends on how the child is raised, what values they are taught, and furthermore if they are taught to think for themselves... The real reason that a lot of kids are fucked up isn't necessarily due to their dispositions, it's how they are taught to cope, or rather aren't taught to cope with situations. (why we have so many fucking psychotherapists in our society.... people need to be taught how to think as they weren't taught, nor did they pickup the ability when they were younger, and as a result suffer from it)
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
Edited by Psychoactive1984 (04/26/05 12:35 AM)
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I'll have to disagree with your last statement.
Well, virtually every psychologist and pediatrician in the world disagrees with you.
And you didn't answer my question: Why is it OK to hit a misbehaving child, but it's not OK to hit you when you're caught speeding?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/26/05 06:25 AM)
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
#4098418 - 04/26/05 10:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I have raised a self disciplined, respectful, compassionate, thoughtful, wonderful at following rules, daughter up to age 8 now with barely having to go into my stern voice, zero time outs and zero punishments. I'm proving it can be done.
HITTING IS NEVER necessary. It only happens because adults loose control of themselves.
I've been meaning to write a book called Uncommon Common Sense Parenting.
A child never deserves to be hit. You will only teach the child to hit others when they loose control of themselves, to get negative attention from others and to get their way by force. Who wants to raise a kid like that and parents wonder why they do things where they think they deserve to be hit. The parents create the behavior problem child and then punish them for it. That's not fair to them or given them a fair chance at life.
Every child who is a behavior problem has the explanation for why in how he/she is being raised. It's the parents who need a time out when they loose their cool and to have their toys "preoccupations" taken away so they can spend more time paying constructive attention to their children.
Schools are beginning to bring in counselors for the behavior problem kids, NOT to counsel the children, but who ever is RAISING them, to turn the child behavior around. Ha Ha it's about time people got to the source. Sure enough, when they teach the parents to implement better parenting skills, the child's behavior automatically turns around. The kids were never doing anything wrong, the parents/care givers were. If the parents make it right then it's right behavior to the kids. (uncommon common sense shows this)
I guess I live in a bubble where I forget people still think that children deserve to be hit and punished. It's times like this I am reminded and get motivated to write more pages in my book (I did get it started months ago)
Anyone, go ahead and throw out hypotheticals of undesirable child behavior. I will show you what you will find in how that child is being raised that gave the right of way to that behavior.
These parents are like "Wah, help me to correct my bad child. I love it when they realize it's their bad parenting skills that need to be corrected."
Psychoactive. YOU NEVER deserved to be hit. Thats total BS and what you were brainwashed to beleive to feel it was okay because deep down you know it wasn't. Parents use this other nonsense about hitting kids because they love them. Then the kids say, "Oh they hit me because they loved meand for my own good". Then they grow to beleive that violence is how you show love and they turn around and create abusive relationships and homes.
I am not preaching from a pulpit that doesn't understand this dynamic inside and out from experience as I have raised a daughter who doesn't need punishing and was a kid who got beaten bloody with a belt for giggling when I was suppose to be falling asleep.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...


Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Spock: "Children should be treated as adults at an early age as possible."
I've also treated children as equal/adults to the best of my ability as well.. But I will admit that this behavior towards children in the past was often done out of a repression of what I percieved to be "childishness".
Later in time, I learned [or perhaps I should say relearned] about the value of child-likeness, and the danger of child-ishness.
In other words, I was mistaking one for other within myself, hence the emphasis on mature interaction between children and myself.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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mygodisme
mommy

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 37
Last seen: 17 years, 6 months
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I think that giving a spanking to an adult who has been pulled over for speeding is a great idea. Lashing by whip is a little on the excessive side, however...
And yes, I do spank my daughter. There is a set form of discipline in our house. If she does something wrong, we discuss it first, and I explain to her why that is not ok.
If she does the behavior again (rare, because usually explaining to her once why the behavior is bad is enough to get her to be good) she gets one of the following according to the offense: a time out, a toy taken away, or grounding.
The third time, she gets a spanking. If there is a fourth time, she has to write 100 times some sort of sentence that correlates to what she did. She hates that punishment the most, and would rather have a spanking than write lines, which is really weird...
I am very strict with my daughter because her birth mother never disciplined her at all...but now my kid is well-behaved, gets along great with other kids, is polite, etc. Spankings are extremely rare, because treating her with respect and not talking down to her work out more times than not.
This is exactly how I was reared; my parents tried calm and rational discussion with me, then revocation of a privilege etc., and finally spanking. I've turned out okay, and I hope my kid turns out like me. She's a good kid, and she is obviously very happy living with us (she begs us to not let her birth mother take her away from us. =( that is another story...)
I also believe there is an age where spanking is no longer appropriate, such as 9 or 10. Using paddles, or belts, or anything else to spank with is also inappropriate, because that causes a lot of pain. Little kids don't need a lot of pain, they need two or three smacks on the bottom and stand in the corner.
I'll shut up now.
-------------------- I've seen the infinite. It's nothing special.
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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I want to add a consideration to what Spock said.
Reasoning abilities do not start to kick in till around the age of 8. So to think you can reason with a child same as you would an adult might lead to frustration.
Definitely keep up the reasoning with them and give reasons for why you say or do what you do or ask of them. Though they may not be able to reason during the earlier years, when they do hit their age of reasoning, they will have your framework to use when making decisions for themselves.
If a parent says, "Stop it!" and the child asks "why?" and the parent says "because I said so". The child learned nothing and in the future will not have a good reason for not choosing to engage in that same behavior again.
If the parent were to say, "because, you may break the window and get cut with glass and that will hurt right? New windows cost money to replace and some one will have to work very hard to buy a new one. Do you want to work very hard to buy a new on if you break it?" I know throwing stones is fun, and you can do it if you throw them where there is nothing that can break and no one around to get hurt." Then help them find a safe place like a pond or empty field or get them a bucket of water to drop them in. And better yet, do it with them showing them how to do it "safely" and fun with them to show them their joy and wants are important to you.
YES reasoning is VERY important. Just don't expect to see them doing it on their own often until around age 8. Some show signs of doing it earlier though, but its only through memory at that stage but that is still good for them to have, a memory bank of good reasons for why not to do certain things and more constructive alternatives.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
Edited by gettinjiggywithit (04/26/05 12:06 PM)
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: mygodisme]
#4098787 - 04/26/05 12:20 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think that giving a spanking to an adult who has been pulled over for speeding is a great idea. Lashing by whip is a little on the excessive side, however...
Spanking an adult for speeding instead of lashing with a whip is too mild to stop the speeding behavior. If you want to compare apples and apples, the violence has to be strong enough to really make you think long and hard before you break the rules again. This is what hitting does in the case of the child, and it's only fair that the adult suffer the same relative violence; that means lashing with a whip.
So, if you don't think it's appropriate to whip a speeder, why is it appropriate to hit a child? 
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
Edited by Diploid (04/26/05 12:30 PM)
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist

Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
#4098824 - 04/26/05 12:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: I'll have to disagree with your last statement.
Well, virtually every psychologist and pediatrician in the world disagrees with you.
And you didn't answer my question: Why is it OK to hit a misbehaving child, but it's not OK to hit you when you're caught speeding?
Actually I did, it was a justification through similar mentatlities.
Virtually every psychologist, and psychotherapist also advocates popping magical pills to solve your issues as well.... also look to my #1, and my #2 for more answering.
Let's not apply too much rational to a profession that has recently lost much of their rational.
Further, the situation doesn't apply in my scenario, nor many of those that I know that have experienced similar forms of reprimanding... guess the psychologists don't know what to contribute that too.... guess they don't have the holy grail of the mind.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Right, dismiss professionals who, while not perfect, know more about the topic and have more experience with children than you and me combined.
Whatever...
How about you answer my question this time:
Would you accept a change in the traffic laws such that if you get caught speeding, the penalty is lashing by whip? If not, then what argument do you use to justify hitting a misbehaving child, and why doesn't that argument apply to you?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist

Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
#4098858 - 04/26/05 12:41 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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Diploid... seriosly, how far do you want to take this apart?
Is it ok for a cop to give you a timeout or restrict you from tv for speeding? Different crimes, different consequences, one approach simply doesn't always work with child rearing, and establishing a civil code of conduct...
It's why we have big kid time-outs, they're called prisons. TBH i'd rather be hit then given a speeding ticket, one is a fast solution, with a fast direct consequence, a ticket on the other hand... requires payment, at times traffic school, and could even result in the loss of a license.
One method for child rearing is more to the point, and establishes clear boundaries without fucking around; and should only be utilized to the extent that is necessary. Attempting to rationalize with a child, isn't always possible, especially when a child isn't all that rational, or they are rational to the extent that they can justify their behavior (myself as a youngster) and attempt to get away with something that you full well know is wrong.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Why won't you answer my queastion?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist

Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
#4098889 - 04/26/05 12:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago) |
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I already did... how much clearer would you like me to get?
Trust me, the last thing you'll see me do is attempt to evade questions.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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I didn't see your answer. Here, I'll make it easy and go step by step.
Part one:
Would you accept a change in the traffic laws such that if you get caught speeding, the penalty is lashing by whip?
Hint: it's a Yes/No question.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Psychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist

Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: Psychoactive. YOU NEVER deserved to be hit. Thats total BS and what you were brainwashed to beleive to feel it was okay because deep down you know it wasn't. Parents use this other nonsense about hitting kids because they love them. Then the kids say, "Oh they hit me because they loved meand for my own good". Then they grow to beleive that violence is how you show love and they turn around and create abusive relationships and homes.
No... I really did, no brainwashing at all (not in all situations). I had the a fully developed concept of what was wrong, yet was a defiant prick just so I could be. I scoffed at restrictions, and other forms of punishment, as well as direct reasoning.
In light of me challenging it all, just because I could, and none of the other punishments working...
Trust me, I did.
I'm not violent, nor abusive as a result of it. Some people learn differently... if you could've seen some of the shit I did in direct defiance, and with full reasoning as to the implications of an action, you'd say I deserved more.... It's like telling someone not to push a red button, explaining all the reasons why, telling you all the consequences, explaining it all on so may levels... and you push it to piss them off.
-------------------- "Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi "We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin "Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers." -It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall. -Substance over Style. -Common sense is uncommon.
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