Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomCube.com
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Topicals   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4099369 - 04/26/05 02:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Read up on social heirarchy, and it's clear that rebellion is a vital aspect of natural behavior... and not a result of raising. Furthermore, one can look to the more intelligent simians if you want reference material. Rebellion, and challenging of notions is the fundamental aspect of evolution in a more conceptual "conscious" sense. Without questioning, and challenging old notions, we just stagnate.

Like all things, respect is earned, and isn't given (unless your foolish). To think that by virtue of them being your parent they deserve respect is, foolish in itself... :shrug: I'll stop at this for now, but look into various other forms of social heirarchies in the animal kingdom, challenging that which is established is necessary on so many fundamental levels, and it most certainly isn't a result of bad parenting. (unless, wolfs, chimps, lions, etc.. are thought to be bad parents)


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineegghead1
Nakedly Open

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099379 - 04/26/05 02:41 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The very word "Authority" is an indication that your parents raised you to think that they were in charge, responsible and had full "Authority" over your life. This is the cause of defiant rebellion, it comes about through a lack respect, responsibility and most of all equanimity in the parent/child relationship. You like to think that your rebellious defiance came with the package but the truth is that all of these aspects are conditioned attitudes that develop through incorrect parenting.

I'm saying that respect should not be earned at all in a parent/child relationship, it should come unconditionally from the parent to the child from the beginning. This way the child automatically copies and reciprocates the respect to the parent. Haven't you noticed that a child mind is like a sponge, it soaks up ,copies and responds to the parents attitudes and behaviors as well as people in its immediate environment.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Edited by egghead1 (04/26/05 02:47 PM)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4099399 - 04/26/05 02:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

OMG!!! It's a word, let's not take it out of context, look to the dictionary and realize what it denotes.

You do not know how I was raised, you did not live my life, you did not experience the strong sense of freedom I was alotted to make my own decisions.

egghead1... please, look at some reference material pertaining to animal social heirarchies.... Humans just have an advanced form of it, yet are still animals... so it indeed does apply. You will notice vast similarities in terms of social order and respect through age, as well as the de-establishment of an older order to make way for a new one.

You're conditioned to place emphasis through psychologists that all are problems are a result of how somebody is raised, yet fail to realize the similarties found within the animal kingdom. Yes; humans are animals, only we're better at doing everything then most animals are.

You can place the focus all on me on a personal level, however that doesn't explain why their are so many irresponsible children as a result of being given to much authority to make their own decisions, and a general negligience in terms of parental care. Further you can look to how they have a strong lack of discipline as a result of it.

Edit:
Humor me at least and review some of it. If you find no correlation of evidence, then explain why you feel the way you do without any form of propoer justification; and why it doesn't pertain, and is so dissimilar to human heirarchies of authority, and respect.



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Diploid]
    #4099440 - 04/26/05 03:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I do have to question you on one point. How many children do you have? How many are turned out adults? What is their condition? I had a few years of psych my first go round in college, as a psych major. I learned about negative and positive reinforcement. These methods are way more effective than reward and punishment. If utilised correctly spanking is an effective form of negative reinforcement...especially for small (under 8) children. If used incorrectly spanking is ineffective. Too frequent spankings desensitize the child quickly, but used as a last resort it can be effective. I have spanked my children on several occasions when they were younger with good results. An older child is better dealt with through reason and by granting or withholding desired privileges or items. The most important thing is to always explain why. I have 3 children who have excellant grades and behavior. One is seventeen and heading off for college next fall. By my judgement she is an adult and requires little guidance. My children all respect my word and follow it scrupulously while maintaining respect for my person and opinions...which I encourage them to question. One of my proudest moments was on 9/11 2001. I was frustrated by the television coverage and said a racial slur against Arabs...my eighth grade daughter promptly corrected me and denounced my statement as hate based nonsense which was based in generalizations. I felt a little peeved, but I was also proud of her.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099446 - 04/26/05 03:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

that doesn't explain why their are so many irresponsible children as a result of being given to much authority to make their own decisions, and a general negligience in terms of parental care. Further you can look to how they have a strong lack of discipline as a result of it.

"too much authority"

"General negligence"

You've generally explained it yourself.

Too much authority is not the recommendation for healthy, conscious parenting nor is general negligence. I don't think any of us in this thread are advocating such parental approaches.

It's quite simple really: Physical and/or emotional negativity is not a prerequisite for discipline.
There is an entire dimension of disciplinary actions. However, putting multi-dimensional modalities into practice takes a very multi-dimensional person, and many parents who are too strictly one-dimensional, e.g. not open minded, will face greater challenges in administrating disciplinary action.

You are free to excercise whatever forces of discipline on your children [or whoever] you wish. Nobody is going to take that right from you... However, just remember: There is and will always be the alternative route. It may not be as fast and easy, it may not serve the compulsive need for instant gratification... but it is the path that reaps the rewards in the long run.

Who emerged victorious in the perennial race between the slow, but honest Tortoise and the quick but cheating Hare?



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4099847 - 04/26/05 05:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I fully agree... I'm just merely suggesting that it should be utilized as a parenting tool as a last result, as other methods fall short depending on the will of the individual.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineegghead1
Nakedly Open

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4099863 - 04/26/05 05:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

But thats still saying that under some circumstances its OK for violence to be used against a child. Its never Ok for this to happen under any circumstances. If the child is out of control, then thats your own fault for letting your relationship with him/her degrade to that level.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4099871 - 04/26/05 05:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Explain how you would solve the real life example that I provided.

No other method worked... nuff' said.

Life isn't all peachy keen like we would like it to be :shrug: we implement methods to compensate for unforeseen scenarios.

Methods that work.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
Re: Relating to Children [Re: egghead1]
    #4100506 - 04/26/05 08:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"But thats still saying that under some circumstances its OK for violence to be used against a child. Its never Ok for this to happen under any circumstances"

I have to ask you how many children you have, and their ages. Such a statement seems based in inexperience. Spanking is not "violence" as you describe it. What I define spanking as is the classic "over the knee" spanked with hand spanking. Combined with a careful explanation and used as a last resort method (after scolding, sitting in the corner, taking away a toy, etc...). Particularly if administered just after the offense is committed, it is a great way of breaking a child's pattern of behavior. No pain need be involved...it is a rapid interuption in the child's flow of conciousness that creates doubt in regard to a particular situation. Under these comnditions a new pattern of behavior can be installed rapidly. I am not discussing random violence here, but a form of behavior mofification. One analogy to this I have found is in Carlos Castaneda's books. In those books such a form of programming was called "stopping the world". Other ways of disrupting behavior patterns such as loud unexpected noises or being splashed with cold water can serve as well. This method of behavior modification can be used on adults as well, but spanking might be difficult, so other disruptive actions are better.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblechinadoll
there
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,118
Loc: dark side of terrapin
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4100717 - 04/26/05 09:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I will admit that I haven't read all the posts in this thread. As an educator, I've found that being strict at the beginning of the school year leads to a great deal of mutual respect by the time December, spring break and June roll around. These are the times when you need kids to be in control.
Jiggy, what you did with your group is a method widely used.


--------------------
Just a little nervous from the fall.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Relating to Children [Re: chinadoll]
    #4100725 - 04/26/05 09:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with Huehuecoyotl, everyone should beat kids to death.  If they talk when company is over they deserve it.  If they show any spark of creativity or originality, beat it out of them, so no one thinks they are gay.

Fuck, I thought this was the 21 century.  Fucking Christ, guys.  NO, you do not hit kids.  Bad.  :whack:


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: tomk]
    #4100780 - 04/26/05 09:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, same thing tomk, describe your approach to the situation I presented.

It is indeed the 21st century, we can kill each other better, and live longer.... wtf is that supposed to mean? How is it that you found that Huehuecoyotl said or implied what you're suggesting in any manner?

Even "fucking Christ" and his followers follow this practice; spare the rod, spoil the child.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Relating to Children [Re: chinadoll]
    #4100847 - 04/26/05 10:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yes yes, being strict/stern yet pleasant is important for establishing mutual trust and respect with children. This is a different topic from using hitting for punishment.

I bet what you do is set the guidelines first and then reinforce them with advanced warning follow through consistently. This strictness is a MUST, especially the consistency of follow through.

That's where many parents blow it. They say, "If you don't stop throwing sand at the other kids we are leaving the park and NO ice cream after wards". Then they go back to jabbering with the other moms. 10 minutes later, kid still throwing sand and they say it again and go back to jabbering. 30 minutes later, kid still throwing sand, they say it again. 20 minutes later the kid gets hit on the ass and yanked away and they leave as the other moms are and then they go for ice cream.

You know that's what I am talking about.

How should it be handled one might ask so I am giving solutions instead of pointing out problems. It's important to lay out the rules as best you can when in new environments so kids have a chance at least to comply on their own. IF, the child does something undesirable without having been told it was, you have to tell what not to do and why and give an alternative. At that time, you also tell them, that if they do it again, you will leave and no ice cream. If they do it again-ask them to say good bye to everyone and you leave and you don't go for ice cream.

A child isn't going to believe a word you say, if you don't mean t and follow through. Don't say it if you don't mean it and say only what you mean and are willing to follow through with.

Here's a good one yo guys will love. I was at a McDonald's last year in the play land section. This little girl, cute as doll goes running in to climb up the slide. The mom follows her, grabs her, whacks her hard on the ass and says, "We play after we eat."

So they eat and the little girl goes to play. The first thing she did was walk up to another kid and she whacked him on the ass. The mom yells at her, "Sarah, we do not hit other people." Oh, man I couldn't keep my mouth shut. I turned to her and said , "Yes you do. I just saw you hit your daughter ten minutes ago." She got flustered and left.

Well, I could write a book on this stuff so I will leave it off here!

Bless your heart for being a teacher! I think the teachers of our children should be the highest paid people on the planet! :heart: :thumbup:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100861 - 04/26/05 10:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

That quote from the Bible, "Do not spare the rod to spoil the child" is one of the most widely misinterpreted ones used by physically abusive parents.

FYI, back in the day, a rod was a measuring tool, not a punishment whipping tool.

That phrase is talking about using just measure of how much you give so as not to spoil a child.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4100873 - 04/26/05 10:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Like everything in the bible... it's open to interpretation :smile:

"The rule of thumb" is pretty similar.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4100879 - 04/26/05 10:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Ok, same thing tomk, describe your approach to the situation I presented. "

Start with not hitting kids and go from there. It's easy. Just don't hit kids. Simple. What could be MORE FUCKING OBVIOUS THEN THAT?


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100893 - 04/26/05 10:45 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It's not open to interpretation when at the time it was written in the area it was written a rod was a measuring tool.

If it was used to beat children then yes, you could say the Bible advocates it. It was used to measure amounts. Spoiled children are given to much. The quote is to teach that one should use just measurement when giving way to children.

Once people learn what that word was used for in the place and time, the misinterpretation for of seeing it as a beating tool for punishment holds zippo weight.

Hitting children does not correct or prevent the negative spoiling of them. Not over indulging them with unguided leeway and materialism does.  :cool: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: tomk]
    #4100895 - 04/26/05 10:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

.... ok, explain your method for the example then.

If it's so simple describe how you would've dealt with me in that situation. Please, make it abundantly clear, I figure that if it was so obvious I'd know the solution myself :wink:.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Relating to Children [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4100900 - 04/26/05 10:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)



--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetomk
King of OTD

Registered: 09/22/04
Posts: 1,559
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
Re: Relating to Children [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4100902 - 04/26/05 10:54 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"I'm not violent, nor abusive as a result of it."

Yeah, but you want to hit kids.  You think there isn't a problem with it.  You are shocked that people think there is.

That makes you violent and abusive.  And what you are doing is making excuses for hitting kids.  Not cool.

:whack:

I can't find your example to respond to am to stoned to read to much tonight to bad.  But don't hit kids.


--------------------
"I am eternally free"


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: PhytoExtractum Buy Bali Kratom Powder   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Bridgetown Botanicals CBD Topicals   Left Coast Kratom Kratom Powder For Sale


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Children's lives more valuable than adults? Anonymous 1,379 19 09/15/04 01:30 PM
by jux
* Children and Cuss Words
( 1 2 all )
Silversoul 2,202 37 08/03/05 10:42 AM
by fireworks_god
* Children's Intrinsic Wisdom SkorpivoMusterion 803 2 09/18/04 10:32 PM
by SkorpivoMusterion
* raising children objectively? zzenix 1,040 9 03/08/03 03:03 PM
by MAIA
* Alien/Human Relations, Version 2
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
ShroomismM 14,757 103 02/08/04 06:12 PM
by Shroomism
* Raising children
( 1 2 all )
newuser1492 2,268 20 02/12/05 09:30 PM
by niteowl
* Do you want to have children?? HarveyWalbanger 800 12 03/07/03 12:33 AM
by HarveyWalbanger
* adopted children equal to biological children?
( 1 2 3 all )
JCoke 2,978 50 02/19/09 10:18 PM
by Poid

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
10,517 topic views. 1 members, 11 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.019 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 15 queries.