Quote:

When you are "in love," you believe that you will NEVER question whether or not you love them, that they could NEVER do anything which you would find hurtful or disappointing, and that you will always find it effortless to remain "in love."

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And having moments when asking yourself if you're still in love with that person is supposed to come as a thing that makes the difference? And putting effort in remaining in love testifies true love?
I'm seriously having doubts about that. If one finds oneself asking that (if they are still in love with their partner), I think that there are serious problems regarding that relationship since LOVE comes without any doubt and draws by itself the state of being in love

Now about thinking that the one you love would NEVER hurt or deceive you in any way happens to people who are full of ego, because their thinking is very self centered so they're immature. I don't think that one can fully experience true love in a state of immaturity (and by that I'm referring to psychological immaturity).
One who never managed to get over himself/herself will probably think that the one they love will behave only according to their wishes. This is again wrong thinking which comes from the lack of maturity.
When it comes to true love one would never think such an impossible thing, and in the same time, due to the love one feels, one would be aware of the fact that those incidents will not turn into issues that would make them doubt their love.

Quote:

When you make the transition from "in love," aka INFATUATED, to loving, you recognize that you are dealing with a human being, not a god or goddess, and that you, yourself, are a human being. This re-grounding can make or break a relationship, and those who stay together post-infatuation are beginning their REAL relationship.

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Again, I think that this comes from being mature and aware enough. If one enters in a relationship by being immature, chances are that he/she will get all confused and go from a state a total worshiping to total disappointment. But in my opinion this is related to the lack of experience or ability to learn from past experiences.
We only realize that we're dealing with a human being after we fall out of love? . I think that if we are able to discern we can see that from the start even if we chose to treat the one we love as a god/goddess. This comes from the need to express one's feelings and the desire of making the one we love feel as happy and as loved as possible. We choose on our own Will to remain in love, a state which doesn't come in contradiction to real love. Those two feelings go well hand in hand and I see no contradiction in that
How can being in love and in the same time loving a person not be a real relationship? I strongly believe that one can have a real and strong connection, on every aspect with his/hers partner, even if there's also attraction involved.

Now getting back to the Will to love. This makes us come in direct contact with the Universal love which is the greatest expression of love and which in extent will make us be in a constant state of development. It brings acceptance and allowance. In my opinion, true romantic love involves this law of the Will

Quote:

Axiom of Maria. A precept in alchemy: "One becomes two, two becomes three, and out of the third comes the one as the fourth."

Jung used the axiom of Maria as a metaphor for the whole process of individuation. One is the original state of unconscious wholeness; two signifies the conflict between opposites; three points to a potential resolution; the third is the transcendent function; and the one as the fourth is a transformed state of consciousness, relatively whole and at peace.

Source: The Jung Lexicon

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Veritas said:

When you make the transition from "in love," aka INFATUATED, to loving, you recognize that you are dealing with a human being, not a god or goddess, and that you, yourself, are a human being.  This re-grounding can make or break a relationship, and those who stay together post-infatuation are beginning their REAL relationship.

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When does this transition occur, do you feel? What causes the transition to occur? Re-grounding? "REAL relationship"? To think that changes manifested as one discovers more and more deeply one's shared love with another would regress at some point? Apparently, as humans, we are not capable of setting our own path, living it, and consciously changing as a result?

You propose that we regress into past patterns of behavior and thought? Why? It sounds like one causes oneself to begin obstructing that experience of love with their own preconceived sense of identity.

If one were to refer to one's mutually shared, estatic experience of romantic love as simply an illusion, then I would wonder why one could not have stayed within that loving state of being. What is it exactly that brought one back into one's past, instead of that conscious perception of one's ideal state, full of romantic love? What is it that brought one down? Does everyone lose sight of who they are changing into due to the feeling of love within them? Does one lose sense of that potential, and does one begin to stop manifesting that potential in this moment, with the sharing of that love?

I don't see why it has to be this way. I don't see why love like this could not be honest and could not be the beginning of a path that will take them much deeper and more fully in love with each other. It's hard to dissolve within each other if you assert that one must regress into one's past behavior and thought processes that obstruct mutually sharing love together. When awareness and self-realization are intricately involved in the relationship, there is nothing to obstruct the love.

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I like to call the infatuation phase "floating on a pink cloud," as it is highly hormonally-influenced, and rarely marred by an argument or disappointment.  The lovers idealize each other and their connection, and firmly believe that this state will never, ever be altered.

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So, what, exactly? Soon the lovers will begin to be negative with each other? Soon they will dislike aspects of each other? Soon they will not be as intimately interested in each other? Do they get their fill? Is this what always happens?

We make conscious decisions as to who we are. If some decide to be that way, then it is their decision. Each individual is capable of manifesting themselves in accordance with any potential preferred. We all make our choices as to who we will be. I know I've made mine.

Quote:

The most-prevalent infatuation-producing hormone is PEA, which produces feelings of euphoria, sensations of oneness with the beloved, intensified experience of one's surroundings, increased physical wellbeing, alternating peacefulness and intense excitement, as well as major withdrawal symptoms during separation from the beloved.  IOW, all the hallmarks of Romance. 

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There is a chemical that correlates with every sort of emotion and quality of our experience. Its amazing that we have identified this and associated these experiences with certain chemical reactions. In fact, our brain has all sorts of chemical reactions occuring.

Yeah and so what? You never answered my question regarding how long it takes before the chemicals "wear off".

Icelander said:

Sounds very poetic, doesn't it?

True romantic love is the only cosmic truth. It overcomes anything in the Universe. Only those who are worthy will ever know it and so the rest will skof in their ignorance.

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\

Sounds about right.

dr_mandelbrot said:

The first post made me cry for minutes the day it came. Heartfelt energy.

The rest is just blah blah and twisting of words that mean the same thing.

Maybe.

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Icelander said:

Mostly this turned into a I love my cosmic girlfriend thread and she and I are far beyond the cosmic reality continuum.

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You know, if you really want to take this in that direction, I would suggest that you consider rereading The Handbook to Higher Consciousness. We are our own limitations. Our path is that which we choose it to be. It is basically being implied in this thread that, inevitably, the circumstances of life will start to cause one to be obstructed from the experience of love and that its a struggle, and this notion belies everything I understand regarding the nature of awareness and our ability to create ourselves.

Its like saying that there will inevitably be a "bad" day and that it will make us feel "bad" as a result. Well, whether or not it is a "bad" day is a matter of interpretation, and whether or not one feels "bad" due to an external situation within reality is one's own choice. The more we dedicate ourselves to consciously choosing how we will experience reality, and how we will act within reality, the more we actually are who we wish to be.

It is not idealism, as it is rooted in pratical application. Dedicating oneself to a higher standard of existance implies that one will see reality through those terms and will act in accordance with it, so that it naturally materalizes, in this present moment. Not everyone can run a marathon, and perhaps those who hit their personal wall and have to struggle to keep running it assume that it is the nature of reality for everyone.

Quote:

Frankly, I'm not good at it. I am however aware of that and that's something.

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Its not as much as being good at it.

Verities said:

PEA levels remain set at "infatuation" for an average of six months.
  This period may be extended by breaking up and getting back together, or by remaining in contact while at a distance from one another.  Inevitably, though, we start responding to contact with less and less PEA.  Novelty is a major factor in both infatuation and (for males) sexual attraction.

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Quote:

Now a British research team reports early findings suggesting that moderate exercise increases PEA levels for most people. They argue that this increase causes the euphoric mood often called "runners' high." And because depressed people tend to have low PEA levels, the researchers say there now is an explanation of why exercise has a natural antidepressant action.

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So, if someone continues moderate exercise for an extended period of time, does the "novelty" of moderate exercise wear off, and they start to become depressed again?

It sounds as though there is something that triggers this chemical mentally, and that this chemical is an integral aspect of our human experience itself, not simply when we are in "romantic love". Perhaps this romantic love triggers it much more due to clear reasons, like finding someone who connects with you on so many levels, as a person and as a friend and as a lover, for being so happy that you found someone who feels the same way about you in the same ways, etc. etc. etc., yet perhaps, after awhile, most people's minds simply stop triggering it?

Seems possible, because people tend to always take things for granted.... except for those who consciously choose not to.

The chemical comes and goes with the state of mind, and that is subject to the individual. Essentially, you are saying that it is not possible to have a relationship in which the individuals constantly interact with each other in such a manner that deeply and profoundly amazes the other, to constantly stimulate each other in new ways, on a variety of levels... and you point to the chemical composition of studies of individuals who have not had this type of relationship as proof.

In this present moment, there is no "novelty" wearing off due to the trend of time and experience, as there is simply the two individuals, the here and now, and how they consciously choose to be within this moment. Handbook to Higher Consciousness, anyone? Was the fourth through seventh level of consciousness as outlined in the book simply a myth? Was the notion proposed that we can choose our path in relation to this and sustain it, as outlined in the book, a lie? Stupid, ignorant optimism in the face of "reality", the trends of those only temporarily accessing those levels of consciousness, in a conditional manner?

Quote:

Re-grounding in reality after a long period of mind-altering hormonal levels is NOT regression, but heightened awareness of the nature of reality.  The pink cloud is cloud-like in its' ability to obscure.

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Phenethylamine is intricately linked to psychedelics commonly experienced in these parts. LSD, anyone? You refer to mind-altering hormonal levels as though it were a negative attribute, an obstruction to our perceptions. Well, news for you, everything is "mind-altering".

Could you perhaps elaborate as to how this "pink cloud" obscures one's perception and awareness of the nature of reality?

Quote:

  A relationship based on infatuation is not based on a clear perception of reality.

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What about a relationship that is based upon clear perception of reality and upon unconditional love, friendship, and consciousness, that incidentally involves aspects that you would classify as "infatuation"?

Perhaps a relationship based upon infatuation on its own is doomed to a time at which the chemical is no longer utilized by the brain in the same manner and the individuals begin to question the nature of that relationship. Clearly this is not the nature of all relationships.

Quote:

This is not to say that lovers do not get to know one another at all during their honeymoon phase, but rather that the opportunity to truly see one another will arise after the infatuation fades and True Love may begin.

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What is the distinction between "infatuation" and "True love", anyways? Isn't it simply a judgment of the validity of the experience of love? Does a relationship have to run its course past the "six-month" mark, or the "five-seven year mark", before it can be known to be "true love"? Since when is the progress of time a measure of that which exists in the present moment? I thought awareness was the determinant of that.

Veritas said:

What's being implied in this thread is that the illusions created during infatuation will inevitably be shown for what they are--illusions and fantasies.

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Quote:

The day-to-day action of loving your partner, friends, strangers, self, family, etc...has nothing to do with fantasy, and everything to do with reality.

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Clearly. What is today, right now, this present moment? Is today fit within this "day-to-day" cycle?

Quote:

  The obstructions to practicing this loving ARE real, which is not to say that they are insurmountable.

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Which obstructions? Love is something that is "praticed"? Love is experienced within the depths of one's being, and, in this moment, we choose to express it. In this moment it may be possible to be more or less consciously aware of this love, yet when one consciously chooses a path through which one consciously decides to be aware of this state of being, love, in the present moment, then one is consciously aware of this love, and the external circumstance of reality naturally works itself out as a result.
 

Quote:

The first step in experiencing reality is to see reality, to the best of our perceptive ablities, and whatever ideals and high standards we may have as to how we prefer reality to be must be seen in contrast to what currently IS.

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Clearly. Potential can only be manifested when one acts upon realizing it in accordance with the nature of reality in the present moment. And it all occurs within the present moment, of course. There is no limitation on how much or to which degree we can change or become aware in this present moment. Its as conscious and as instant a decision as one decides it to be. There is no path of becoming out of balance and bringing oneself back within balance if one consciously chooses to not imbalance onself in the first place.

Quote:

Balance is not about remaining in balance at all times, but rather noticing when you have lost your balance & gracefully returning.

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Perhaps losing balance will occur, yet it is simply a question first as to what one's balance is, and how far one could become imbalanced. How far could the moon should shift away from its orbit with the Earth, do you think? I see no reason to think that one would become imbalanced to the point that one would not consciously perceive their state of being within love, if one is truly immersed within that center in love. Gravity.

Quote:

An acceptance of both the moving away AND the returning, without the judgment of "this is not true love because we have failed in our ideals."  This is loving between humans, flaws and obstructions and all, and it simply does not look like the fragile fantasies of infatuation.

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Yes, clearly. Now, by what mechanism do we identify the course of infatuation as it occurs? Is it distinguisable from true love until the "falling out" begins to occur?

Who could know? Only those two individuals who are intimately immersed within the relationship, I would have to imagine. If they are aware and their relationship is not simply based upon feelings of "imfatuation", then there will be no trouble along the way.

So, ultimately, it either is simply "imfatuation", or it is true love. One has no bearing upon the other.

Quote:

However much we may desire to be ONE with our beloved, we are two.  Intimacy is wonderful precisely because we are two, because we trust enough to be vulnerable and reveal ourselves, because of the mystery, because of the discovery.

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Ahh but there is no true distinction. We are both one and two. This subtle truth even has a gramelin to express it.

Quote:

 
We are able to see the world as described by our beloved, and share their emotions through deep empathy, but we do not share one perception of reality.

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Indubiantly. However, when one's perception of reality is centered around the true nature of reality, to the degree at which we can most directly perceive reality, and one's perceptions in regards to one's relationship is mutually shared, then it might incidentally be two perceptions, yet they are mirrored. Its difficult to lose sight of the other when one's existance is mirroring their own.

Quote:

  This is all for the good, as the contrast and comparison between our POV can reveal the flaws and obstructions present in our own perceptive filters.  The learning experience available to us in this kind of deep intimate friendship is invaluable.

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Yes, I've personally had a relationship like this and had the subsequent learning experience. What if there is, due to having these learning experiences, no flaws or obstructions in the present moment, in regards to one's perception of the relationship one has with another? What if all of these usual obstructions and limitations have been transcended through such learning experience? What then?

adrug said:

The point is, you cannot deny infatuation exists. ALL relationships, whether you want to admit it or not, start with infatuation. Its when the infatuation wears off, that's the real test of the strength of the relationship. I think Veritas and the other people in this thread with more life experience have a little more knowledge about these things than someone as young and inexperienced as yourself.

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Quote:

in·fat·u·a·tion      (ĭ-fāch'ōō-ā'shən)  Pronunciation Key 
n. 
A foolish, unreasoning, or extravagant passion or attraction. See Synonyms at love.
An object of extravagant, short-lived passion.

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Quote:

Romantic love is a form of love that is often regarded as different from mere needs driven by sexual desire or lust, or material and social gain. Romantic love generally involves a mix of emotional and sexual desire, as opposed to Platonic love. There is often, initially, more emphasis on the emotions than on physical pleasure.

Properties of romantic love purported by Western culture include these:

It cannot be easily controlled.
It is not overtly (initially at least) predicated on a desire for sex as a physical act.
If requited, it may be the basis for lifelong commitment.

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Icelander said:

I was relating my personal experience in the opening thread. It has nothing to do with implying anything about any inevitability.

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Quote:

This thread was not about romantic relationships. That's been made clear. Your desire to focus on your personal infatuation is your own business but IMO, relates in no way to what I am talking about here.

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Quote:

Let me state again. MY THREAD is not about personal romantic relationships. I have nothing against you starting your own thread.

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I'd rather discuss the ideas that you and others presented in this thread, in this thread. Don't start playing "this is my thread" when dissenting viewpoints to what you have proposed are presented - this is P&S.

Quote:

All forms of romantic love are, motivated by this search for union with the source of love. However, it is an unconscious distortion of the ego and a great misfortune that this search is directed outward and that the source is misunderstood as being “a person” outside of oneself. This misunderstanding is due to the ego being divorced from its source, which is its Perfect Model or, “inherent blueprint” - its complementary divine Self. It is in the heart center that the union of the female and male (Yin/Yang) energies takes place.

Source: The Mystic Heart

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If you wait for me
Then I'll come for you
Although I've traveled far
I always hold
A place for you in my heart

If you think of me
If you miss me, once in awhile
Then I'll return to you
I'll return and fill
That space in your heart

Remembering
Your touch
Your kiss
Your warm embrace
I'll find my way back to you
If you'll be waiting

If you dream of me
Like I dream of you
In a place that's warm and dark
In a place where I can feel
The beating of your heart

Remembering
Your touch
Your kiss
Your warm embrace
I'll find my way back to you
If you'll be waiting

I've longed for you
And I have desired
To see your face, your smile
To be with you
Wherever you are

Remembering
Your touch
Your kiss
Your warm embrace
I'll find my way back to you
If you'll be waiting

Together again
It would feel so good to be
In your arms
Where all my journeys end
If you can make a promise
If it's one that you can keep
I vow to come for you
If you wait for me

And say you'll hold
A place for me
In your heart.

Tracy Chapman

Incidentally, it has not escaped my attention that Tracy Chapman is a black woman. I love what she has managed to capture in this song.

See also:

The Dark Night

Non-duality: YHVH and The Tao

Soul Retrieval as Remembered Wholeness

The Heart as Mother of the World/The Anahata Chakra




.