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Icelander
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This loving heart. 2
#6958516 - 05/23/07 08:16 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Of all the things I have come to suspect in a long life. The one I suspect the most is that love is the most important for me and maybe for the whole human race. I grew up without much of it and have learned that there is not much of it being shared around. Most of what people call love just so much talk. I suspect this is true because I have been so guilty of it myself.
Around my 50th year of life I had an experience that put me into a total unconditional love state for about 6 hours. It changed me dramatically. For the next 6 months I shared this new found perspective with everyone I met. Slowly my old patterns reformed as there wasn't to much support and I couldn't sustain that state with all my old patterns returning. It wasn't like the old days but it wasn't too much better either.
I have found that it's a lot of work to make love important enough to face all the changes I need to make and to be the kind of human I want to be and how I would really like my world to be. I'm often hateful and pissy and self-indulgent and spiteful. Fearful rotten and ugly. Sometimes though, little a love pokes through to remind me of what I'm missing.
I'm not posting this in way of a confession. I'm posting this to remind myself and state openly for myself what needs work in my life. I've been thinking about this often lately.
Often when you see me being very argumentative here you know I'm not doing to well on feeling love. Just so you know.
THIS THREAD IS NOT ABOUT ROMANTIC LOVE
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/26/07 11:11 AM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander] 2
#6958618 - 05/23/07 08:31 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes, love is an amazing thing. Love is perhaps the greatest catalyst to our ability to change as human beings and to become more conscious of our experience and of reality.
Love will defy convention and one will observe phenomenon that transcends any traditional conception of the nature of reality. It is wonderfully amazing to truly love someone and to know that they truly love you. It sort of just progresses itself, in the most natural way, but in a manner that leaves those experiencing the love to really wonder how it could all have happened...
It is something that one could not possibly have imagined even days beforehand.
As far as experiencing reality immersed within this love, it is really only as difficult as the mind makes it to be. The past is what obstructs the natural state of being known as love from being consciously experienced. The less we think of ourselves and of reality as we have previously conceived it, and the more we direct our focus and attention into our perceptions, and look at how we can consciously act within the present moment in order to create ourselves and to influence the creation of reality, then the easier it is to be within that continual state of love.
I think someone deserves some belated love.
Love is like... pure energy. Our lives can be a path of constantly immersing ourselves within that energy, more and more, in each moment. If one finds one's true love, then it happens naturally, with no real obstruction. Reality simply flows....
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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DrCamacho89
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Love is what keeps us going in the day. Sometimes we lose love and change our whole existance of being just to get it back. Sometimes it's with the same person, and sometimes someone new. Sometimes the someone new can never live up to the last, and you come to realize over time what you had and lost. So you strive, you strive to make the necessary changes to know you are capable of regaining that same form of happiness. Regardless of where it comes from.
The thing is... to me, that's the best part. Never knowing the feelings that are in store. To keep on striving for the ability to be loved. Sometimes we need to love ourselves first before we can allow someone else to as well. It's a thrilling emotion and one in which never goes away until we stop breathing. It is always within us in some shape or form. It's leading us to the next day.
-------------------- "The Highways of Life are Paved with Flat Squirrels who Couldn't Make Up Their Minds"
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fireworks_god
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I'm not certain that it is love that keeps everyone going throughout the day, yet perhaps on a deeper level the desire to be loved is the primary motivation.
Sometimes you find someone that removes all doubt regarding what will happen or if one will lose that love or etc. etc. etc. and you know that every single day is one more step, deeper and deeper into this amazing, mutual experience of love. There is no strive in such a circumstance, only the teasing frustration of the nature of circumstances that cannot be presently rearranged enough within that exact moment to allow two people to fully express their love for each other within that moment.
Yet the experience of the growing love allows reality to flow by its own accord, bringing them into each other's arms in the most natural, conscious way.
Love is an amazing state.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6959023 - 05/23/07 09:40 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I want to include here that this thread is not about romantic love. That is conditional love and not what I am refering to here.
I'm not putting down romantic love mind you but that's another topic.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6959168 - 05/23/07 10:09 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I want to include here that this thread is not about romantic love. That is conditional love and not what I am refering to here.
I'm not putting down romantic love mind you but that's another topic.
Romantic love is conditional love? Could you perhaps elaborate upon this one? How exactly is romantic love, conditional love?
Personally, I see romantic love developing from unconditional love. In fact, true romantic love could only arise from unconditional love.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Did some searching on Wikipedia for a definition...
Quote:
Romantic love is a form of love that is often regarded as different from mere needs driven by sexual desire or lust, or material and social gain. Romantic love generally involves a mix of emotional and sexual desire, as opposed to Platonic love. There is often, initially, more emphasis on the emotions than on physical pleasure.
Properties of romantic love purported by Western culture include these:
It cannot be easily controlled. It is not overtly (initially at least) predicated on a desire for sex as a physical act. If requited, it may be the basis for lifelong commitment.
Could you explain to me precisely how romantic love could not be unconditional love as well?
After reading that, romantic love is sounding better and better.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Romantic love is conditioned upon the beloved being a partner to you. While an extremely healthy relationship between romantic and sexual partners could include most of the aspects of unconditional love, it would still be predicated upon all the conditions we have as to who we wish to be partnered with, and how that partner should behave in regard to ourself and the relationship.
Romantic love is also usually idealistic, and partners tend to ignore or minimize their lover's faults, while exalting their virtues. This is not a good basis for clear-headed, unconditional love, which would require seeing all of their strengths and weaknesses, and offering them love based upon their being.
This is just my take on it, of course, so your mileage may vary.
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leery11
I Tell You What!
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6960713 - 05/24/07 09:19 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I'm a cynical and removed person I think.
I did not come in this way. And in so assessing what went wrong I have come to build an elaborate identity out of crusader against that which siphons love out of society.
This, however, is not done out of love.
I came in unconditional, an exuberant spirit. I was then thrust into absolute vile and repugnant shit. And in time it got so into me that I was a suicidal adolescent.
And so now I am wondering why fuck all why, and so I spend my time lambasting television.
Because when I think about love, I think about the things the suck it out of everyone. All these petty reactionary egoistic bullshit games are NOT the games children play! Why does being mature mean regressing to a state of fallen nature? And there you have all my immeasurable observations about society and the programming it gives us..... right down to the very notion that a catalyst for overwhelming love and empathy is against the law. (LSD)
i feel like we are trapped in an evil Satanic kind of place that atrophies any sense of compassion and kills families......... I feel that way because it got so into me that I forgot who I was.
and I'm still not that person that I was when I was born, before I got exposed to the vile and repugnant side of humanity and lost my good company, my honestness and openness taken away and censored with violent speech by my immeasurable sea of peers.
Love is powerful, overwhelming, completely centered. No ego. So when I see idols to the ego mounted everywhere transmitting petty nonsense I want to destroy them.
But.....
maybe I am better served elsewhere with other interests? I really don't know anymore..... this little first grader was like something something "blow your mom's head off with a flamethrower"
that's how young the garbage seeps in! At least he didn't mean it though.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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leery11
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: leery11]
#6960728 - 05/24/07 09:22 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Icelander, what caused your state of love?
Would you mind sharing that? it sounds very interesting.
How often does everyone feel powerful love in their experience of reality ? I really need to increase it so much.
To me love is not that empty and lifeless word called "love" that we throw around so carelessly. It is that ineffable state of grace that you just beam to everyone.
I feel as if we mistake the word for the feeling. I wonder what allows the feeling to be.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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Icelander
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Did some searching on Wikipedia for a definition...
Quote:
Romantic love is a form of love that is often regarded as different from mere needs driven by sexual desire or lust, or material and social gain. Romantic love generally involves a mix of emotional and sexual desire, as opposed to Platonic love. There is often, initially, more emphasis on the emotions than on physical pleasure.
Properties of romantic love purported by Western culture include these:
It cannot be easily controlled. It is not overtly (initially at least) predicated on a desire for sex as a physical act. If requited, it may be the basis for lifelong commitment.
Could you explain to me precisely how romantic love could not be unconditional love as well?
After reading that, romantic love is sounding better and better.
What Veritas said.
Unconditional love is the love that is given freely and without condition to everyone equally. That includes all those we don't like or are afraid of or we just broke up with. Romantic love is attachment to an object that turns us on. As Veritas said with time and experience (living together day in and day out when it gets messy and ugly and beautiful) there can be unconditional aspects to relationships too.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mushbaby
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander] 1
#6960978 - 05/24/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Romantic love is beautiful, but usually has so much baggage attached that it's hard to enjoy. At least for me, I have a tendency to be insecure.
The deepest, strongest, purest love I have ever known was when my children were born. There's absolutely nothing on earth like it. I can actually feel the love like a presence in our home.
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6961061 - 05/24/07 10:46 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Romantic love is conditioned upon the beloved being a partner to you.
Romantic love itself might be distinctive from unconditional love, in that not all unconditional love is romantic love, but I do not see romantic love as not being unconditional love.
You know, sort of like how a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.
My point is that one can love someone unconditionally and also love them romantically. It is only one love, of course, simply that it has more characteristics than simply unconditional love.
Quote:
While an extremely healthy relationship between romantic and sexual partners could include most of the aspects of unconditional love, it would still be predicated upon all the conditions we have as to who we wish to be partnered with, and how that partner should behave in regard to ourself and the relationship.
Would loving someone romantically imply that one would not be capable of unconditionally loving everyone? How precisely could romantic love not share all aspects that unconditional love exhibits? Does loving some random person unconditionally imply that one holds no preferences as to how they to behave and associate with that person?
How does preferring to center one's life around a relationship with another, in a romantic manner, and holding preferences as to how one behaves in regards to their relationship (did you just say "should" ), imply that the love is not also unconditional love?
Quote:
Romantic love is also usually idealistic, and partners tend to ignore or minimize their lover's faults, while exalting their virtues.
How is the choices that individuals make a testament to the nature of romantic love? At the very least, is the "romantic love" that some share the same as that which others share? Either "romantic love" is an objective, distinct phenomenon and the difference is simply in how people act in regards to that, or it is a phenomenon that is entirely dependent on the nature of the relationship amongst two individuals, and is defined by their choices as to how they will feel and how they will relate.
Personally, I think it is the second one. Yet I do have a sense of the ideal implied by the phrase "romantic love", and refer to this sense when I propose ideas regarding it. I think someone who is in romantic love with another is so immersed in the experience of being with each other that they are more aware of the nature of reality, as they are more fully experiencing it, and that they will naturally see their partner as the truly exist.
If it is idealistic, it is because these individuals experience each other's higher self, and realize the vast potential within each other. I don't see how this implies that they neglect paying attention to certain elements of each other, but rather see it as an opportunity for each other to grow and develop. True romantic love would imply that there is no true distinction between the being of each other.
Quote:
This is not a good basis for clear-headed, unconditional love, which would require seeing all of their strengths and weaknesses, and offering them love based upon their being.
Perhaps you simply refer to a misconception of the nature of romantic love? Perhaps you have witnessed some who have behaved in such a way and it seemed very close to true, unconditional, romantic love, but fell short in some respects? This is simply speculation, as I could not verify that my perspective on the matter is any less than a misconception as the one that you have proposed, beyond simply proposing the point in relation to my proposed perspective as a whole.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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Love is a splendid state to be in . In fact, it is the state that makes the rest of the states seem so pale and limited. It is something that is truly hard to put into words or explain since the actual feeling speaks for itself The best way I can describe love that state of pure bliss mixed with energy, empathy, joy, awareness and the desire of manifestation on every possible aspect all the time ...it is something that comes from our deepest selves and which affirms our true nature, beyond any pre-conceived ideas and structures. It is what changes lives, mentalities and defeats any old patterns. I guess I can compare it with the feeling of being able to see after a very long period when one was kept in the dark, but that too is just an aspect of what love really is.
Quote:
Love is like... pure energy. Our lives can be a path of constantly immersing ourselves within that energy, more and more, in each moment. If one finds one's true love, then it happens naturally, with no real obstruction. Reality simply flows....
Indeed, this feelings like it has a life of it's own. Love is the most powerful "ally" one can have. When one is coming from love, one radiates love, breathes love and makes others around feel it too... I think/feel that it is the only feeling that puts one in direct contact with this Universe
Quote:
Sometimes you find someone that removes all doubt regarding what will happen or if one will lose that love or etc. etc. etc. and you know that every single day is one more step, deeper and deeper into this amazing, mutual experience of love. There is no strive in such a circumstance, only the teasing frustration of the nature of circumstances that cannot be presently rearranged enough within that exact moment to allow two people to fully express their love for each other within that moment.
Love is the most authentic form of affirmation of the reality we experience when we're in that state. We imprint, we transmit our deepest and strongest wants to our reality. It is the thing that removes all doubts or ambiguities - coming in contact with that state gives us the clear perception that we're one with the person we love
To Veritas: I also don't think that love is different from situation to situation, since love is a feeling (coming from beyond any social or psychological construct), not a thought. We only believe that romantic love is conditioned because we see so many cases where people fail as a couple. They fail as a couple because it wasn't true love in the first place (and that is mainly because those people never got over some selfish issues they had, when they don't know their true selves, when they feel like they have something to hide from their partner)... True love, regardless it's implications and the nature of the relationship (lovers, friends, relatives, strangers, etc) IS unconditional love. When we love we become more conscious. In extent, consciousness itself is a remover of selfishness and it's implications.
Quote:
This is not a good basis for clear-headed, unconditional love, which would require seeing all of their strengths and weaknesses, and offering them love based upon their being.
Ohhh but when we become aware we see all the sides of our partner ( both "good" and "bad" ) but due to the fact that we're experiencing true love we rid of being judgmental because that's what awareness is all about. When one understands the true and full texture of a situation one realizes that there's no "good" or "bad" because one is able to see everything in colors, not in black and white. We are able to feel unconditional love because we reach such a good understanding that we don't see people as being "good" or "bad", "strong" or "weak" anymore. I don't understand why you say that this doesn't apply to romantic love. You say that romantic love is not clear-headed. I don't see it that way. Did you make that statement just because romantic love also implies desire? And that desire can make one unable to think straight? If it is so, I think that your opinion is kind of of preconceived because of what I've also mentioned earlier: the multitude of cases where people fail as a couple. And again, I'm saying that I'm precise that they fail as a couple not because the nature of the relationship and it's implications, but because of their own immaturity and inability to make the the distinction between simple attraction and love. Namely sexual desire does not come as an enemy to love, but as something that only makes the relationship even more complex.
Anyone who has experienced real love will tell you that it defies any possible definition, and any attempt to define it can be subject to speculation since words are dead and don't carry inside the energy of the feeling We need to be able to distinguish between feelings themselves and thoughts about feelings.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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DrCamacho89
Mazel Tuff
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: mushbaby]
#6961166 - 05/24/07 11:13 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushbaby said: Romantic love is beautiful, but usually has so much baggage attached that it's hard to enjoy. At least for me, I have a tendency to be insecure.
The deepest, strongest, purest love I have ever known was when my children were born. There's absolutely nothing on earth like it. I can actually feel the love like a presence in our home.
Why is that? Why do people feel a deeper love to someone that they can control or at least feel a stronger sense of control? I feel our society has made it so difficult for one to truly experience love with another human being because we cannot accept the fact that a person had a life before us, and could have a life after if things go awry.
With a child, a parent/child love will be there throughout their existence. That is a deeper bond, but one in which I feel people ignore their spouses and themselves because the feelings aren't as strong. It's sad really. We place too much emphasis on our children.
Truly love someone who has not let anyone else truly love them before, regardless of baggage, and you will see what true love and happiness really is.
I also don't see why romantic love is conditional love. On the rare times that I do give out my love, it is always unconditional. Anything else would not be considered love in my opinion.
-------------------- "The Highways of Life are Paved with Flat Squirrels who Couldn't Make Up Their Minds"
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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(And FWG)
Love, the feeling, is excellent and magnificent.
Love, in practical application, involves all the weird personality stuff we've collected over our lifetime.
Infatuation is what we generally call "romantic love," and it lasts about six months, or until our brains become adjusted to the new chemical "soup" in which we're soaking them. Once this chemical high fades, the real relationship begins. All our unresolved childhood issues come out to attempt resolution, all our odd little personality knick-knacks tumble off the shelves & need to be attended to and/or tossed out.
The "pure bliss" part is something that we can come back to, but only if we get out of our own way. (Maybe the chemical infatuation helps with this initially. )
The couples who "fail" did not necessarily have false love (the opposite of your definition of "true" love, which lasts forever and ever), but could not find a way around their personality clutter once the chemical high wore off. This often happens, IMO, because couples neglect to become friends as well as lovers. Once they start to encounter obstacles, they decide that they have "fallen out of love" or that they did not have "true love" in the first place.
Friends, on the other hand, can be honest and open with one another about the obstacles, and work cooperatively to the best of their abilities. So-called romantic lovers are more likely to seek out the next "true" love, or be suddenly swept off their feet by an uncontrollable infatuation. Then the cycle starts all over again, with the inevitable "falling out of love," disappointment, dishonesty, etc...
As I said, this is my POV, so your mileage may vary. I'm quite a bit older than either of you, and have probably been through the "true love" cycle a few more times. FWG is familiar with Ken Keyes' take on relationships, and what is possible within a partnership, so he may understand where I'm coming from on this one.
Of course the ideal is to have it all with one person, for the rest of your life. This may or may not be possible. I can't say that I've seen any examples of this ideal in application.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Quote:
Romantic love itself might be distinctive from unconditional love, in that not all unconditional love is romantic love, but I do not see romantic love as not being unconditional love.
You know, sort of like how a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square.
My point is that one can love someone unconditionally and also love them romantically. It is only one love, of course, simply that it has more characteristics than simply unconditional love.
That subject is the one that is closest to my heart I guess that it can be quite a controversial subject because, like I stated earlier, people tend to see romantic love as being conditional love mainly because the great number of examples that we see as failing couples. I can only speak from the state I am feeling and experiencing at the present moment and by that I must say that romantic love, true romantic love is not conditional. One who demands certain conditions in order to love will do that not only when it comes to romantic love, but with any other kind of relationship which are supposedly based on "love", since I am certain that those demands come from immaturity and the lack awareness, not from the implications of romantic love.
Infatuation = selfish (pursuing in using others for accomplishing the needs of the self)... thing which again doesn't apply only to romantic relationships. It is only necessary to look around and see how many relationships which don't have a romantic foundation are based on that principle.
Quote:
I think someone who is in romantic love with another is so immersed in the experience of being with each other that they are more aware of the nature of reality, as they are more fully experiencing it, and that they will naturally see their partner as the truly exist.
Sharing & creating their own reality and being totally absorbed by the fullness of the situation
Explaining love is the equivalent of explaining the true essence of one's self which by the nature of it is totally impossible but it can let others get a glimpse inside when others think and refer all these to his/hers true substance.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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backfromthedead
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6961374 - 05/24/07 12:19 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I feel that its about finding an example of what it is in the first place. I too grew up with little love. I had an abusive father who was a shining example of what is wrong in the world today. Dude is all about money and alcohol to this day. When I found Christ, not necessarily Jesus cause I hadn't even read the bible, I learned what it was all about. Still... Hard to walk that path. Seems almost the path of most resistance due to my nature, conditioning, and upbringing. I wish I had a girl to walk with. The only person that I have ever loved dropped me like a hot rock when I went off the deep end after the TRUTH. Its almost like she was worried about what everybody else would think. Thanks Amber. You really know what its about. Sorry, I'm still learning.
--------------------
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DrCamacho89
Mazel Tuff
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Sharing & creating their own reality and being totally absorbed by the fullness of the situation
Beautifully put. I miss that so much and will continue to search a way to find that again...
Here is a video that I found that really applies to my current situation and I think can be appreciated by all of us romantics floating around out there...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KUVnKz_deUA
-------------------- "The Highways of Life are Paved with Flat Squirrels who Couldn't Make Up Their Minds"
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6961473 - 05/24/07 12:47 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
This often happens, IMO, because couples neglect to become friends as well as lovers. Once they start to encounter obstacles, they decide that they have "fallen out of love" or that they did not have "true love" in the first place.
That is exactly why I also said:
Quote:
They fail as a couple because it wasn't true love in the first place (and that is mainly because those people never got over some selfish issues they had, when they don't know their true selves, when they feel like they have something to hide from their partner)
This too includes the lack of a friendship between partners. But who said that this applies to all cases of romantic love? Is it a rule that romantically involved people can't be friends? It might be true in some cases but not in all of them. So why making a general statement concerning this kind of relationship when it obviously isn't something that happens all the time? It's like saying the air is somewhat poisonous JUST because the pollution from the cities (and in extent forgetting that we have fresh air in lots of places in nature).
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Friends, on the other hand, can be honest and open with one another about the obstacles, and work cooperatively to the best of their abilities. So-called romantic lovers are more likely to seek out the next "true" love, or be suddenly swept off their feet by an uncontrollable infatuation. Then the cycle starts all over again, with the inevitable "falling out of love," disappointment, dishonesty, etc...
To be honest I have tones of evidence that relationships based on friendship can be subject to lies, hypocrisy, dishonesty etc in the same proportion as romantic relationships... this is a fact that we can observe by just looking around and noticing how a part of the friendships and totally fucked up In fact, if I go deeper in that thought, I notice that while some lovers lie to each other in some cases only because they're afraid that that they might be judged or rejected (and by that I'm not sustaining that such a lie is permissible but is just that is has more "human" interpretation then the reasons why some friends lie to each other (again only in some cases) - like getting a better social label, inviting "important people" to cocktails etc... Again everything is relative and you can't say that only lovers lie to each other while friends don't... it is a proven and observable fact they do too.
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As I said, this is my POV, so your mileage may vary. I'm quite a bit older than either of you, and have probably been through the "true love" cycle a few more times. FWG is familiar with Ken Keyes' take on relationships, and what is possible within a partnership, so he may understand where I'm coming from on this one.
Invoking age and the fact that you have more experience is totally biased and irrelevant in this discussion since love is not a mental construct (in my opinion it comes from a deeper place then expectations and concepts even if sometimes it looks like it is mentally produced and this comes from the fact that as long as we have a mind we have the concept of love implemented there too) and one can't really tell how much quality of awareness and lessons gets from the quantity of experience and so on... Love is not what we hear from others to be, what he see in movies or read in books. Love resides in one's personal and direct experience and I think that letting ourselves guided by a concept is a huge obstacle in actually finding true love.
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Of course the ideal is to have it all with one person, for the rest of your life. This may or may not be possible. I can't say that I've seen any examples of this ideal in application.
There are always exceptions to the rule And yet again I'm trying to do the impossible and try to find new ways to express in words the complexity of love. And again it is not even close to what it really is but that won't stop me from doing it anyways
Love is when we feel/see/know that everything is in it's right place in this world, feeling which resides from the love that we feel and the awareness that we keep growing and that we perfectly fit in what seems to be this "chaotic" system... love makes one see the order in chaos. It is that constant state of and and that makes us tell the one we love I am so happy to have you in my life
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Grok
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I also grew up without much love, and it wasn't because of bad intention, but because I think my family generally loathed themselves. This led me to the same state of self-loathing for much of my youth and if I hadn't found for myself that there is a force of love that exists throughout/drives/creates the universe and life and showed me to love myself, there is no way I would be alive right now. The human condition is one that requires love; and as simplistic as it seems a lot of the worlds problems really do come from a lack of love on our planet IMO.
I too have been immersed in peaks of unconditonal love of everything, also finding them to be the most transforming expereinces of my life. It was like seeing through the eyes of God. Someone could have walked up and shot me and I would have still loved them then; I felt so happy and unafraid that I was ready to die in that moment. I understood how real unconditional love truley is the only unconquorable, unstoppable force for radical change. The power of God is in our hearts, not in the sky, in bullets, or bombs.
But it's so easy to lose sight of this and forget, and to fall back into old patterns, to start loving with condition and passing judgment on mundane things. It takes a tremendous amount of courage to love unconditionally; more than anything else perhaps. Our media glorifies the couarge and bravery of people who fight our wars but this is nothing compared to the couarge to stand up to all the hate and fear and choose love instead, even in the face of imminent death. When you love unconditionally you are completely vulnerable. You have to be totally unafraid. You have to know that there is nothing to be afraid of, and in a consensus reality governed by fear, which is so easy to fall into the influence of, it is nearly impossible to maintain this state.
Everything is possible, and I believe that it is first through knowing that it is possible for one's self to love everything without condition and be totally unafraid of anything - of dying, of losing everything, etc. I know it is! This is what so many religious figures have realized, that the kingdom of heaven can be RIGHT HERE NOW if only...
But talk is cheap. I often do not meaure up to my own standards, I fail to practice what I preach...and then I have lost the unconditional love of myself, and that's where it all has to start.
"Most of the cast that you meet on the streets speak of true love, Most of the time, they sittin' and cryin' at home..." - Jerry Garcia
-------------------- Entropy is increasing. To send me a PM, go to my journal
Edited by cilosyb (05/24/07 01:03 PM)
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
DrCamacho89 said:
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MushroomTrip said: Sharing & creating their own reality and being totally absorbed by the fullness of the situation
Beautifully put. I miss that so much and will continue to search a way to find that again...
Here is a video that I found that really applies to my current situation and I think can be appreciated by all of us romantics floating around out there...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=KUVnKz_deUA
Awesome video, thank you sharing the link
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
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As I said, your mileage may vary. Only time and trials will tell whether what you currently deem "true" love will live up to the high standards you've set. Life is messy, and the understanding of that statement only comes with age and experience, IMO.
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Icelander
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Grok]
#6961656 - 05/24/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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This is what my first post is all about. Somehow it got derailed. But it's the day to day challenge of loving. Being able to not get what you would prefer and still deciding it's better to love what is. To continue to struggle to be loving to yourself and others when you don't see a good example for it. It's a very gutsy thing for sure. I applaud your attitude.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6961677 - 05/24/07 01:40 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Veritas said: As I said, your mileage may vary. Only time and trials will tell whether what you currently deem "true" love will live up to the high standards you've set. Life is messy, and the understanding of that statement only comes with age and experience, IMO.
I can only remember back to my last relationship when I said "this is true love". And then the one before that and the one before that. Of course I choose to forget I had said that to myself each time a new "perfect" love came along. I no longer predict about romance and take things a day at a time as best I'm able.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/24/07 01:54 PM)
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Veritas
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6961709 - 05/24/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Perhaps the problems in "application" exist because we somehow expect the feeling of love to make the action of loving happen?
Early in a relationship, we're excited and thrilled with the novelty and wonder of "falling in love," and we may not notice the effort required to remain loving until that newness has faded. If we believe that the feeling should be enough to keep the relationship vital and growing and loving, disappointment is inevitable.
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MushroomTrip
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6961726 - 05/24/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Of course I choose to forget I had said that to myself each time a new "prefect" love came along.
I choose to remember all the :true loves" that I've had before... after all they're part of what brought me where I am right now
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I no longer predict about romance and take things a day at a time as best I'm able.
I don't predict either... I'm experiencing and manifesting my happiness. Love is about manifestation too (in my opinion).
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Lion
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Could you elaborate on what you mean by manifestation?
-------------------- “Strengthened by contemplation and study, I will not fear my passions like a coward. My body I will give to pleasures, to diversions that I’ve dreamed of, to the most daring erotic desires, to the lustful impulses of my blood, without any fear at all, for whenever I will— and I will have the will, strengthened as I’ll be with contemplation and study— at the crucial moments I’ll recover my spirit as was before: ascetic.”
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MushroomTrip
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Lion]
#6961784 - 05/24/07 02:00 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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bug said: Could you elaborate on what you mean by manifestation?
I already did a lot of times throughout the thread... read my posts and you'll know, I hate repeating myself.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
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Quote:
backfromthedead said: I feel that its about finding an example of what it is in the first place. I too grew up with little love. I had an abusive father who was a shining example of what is wrong in the world today. Dude is all about money and alcohol to this day. Hard to walk that path. Seems almost the path of most resistance due to my nature, conditioning, and upbringing.
All true. This is what makes being loving such a challenge. When we don't really know how to fully accept ourselves and love ourselves then we struggle to love the world we live in. It takes great courage to keep at it. I feels much easier to quit at times and just say "fuck it all". There are no guarantees of success or it getting easier. It's all up to us.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Epigallo
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6961960 - 05/24/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Do you think your position of being "not too interested in humanity", as you expressed in that thread a while ago, was present when you had that overwhelming experience of love?
Just curious where you're coming from.
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backfromthedead
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6962026 - 05/24/07 03:19 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I find myself in the 'fuck it all' mode sometimes. Its almost like I don't want to let go of it. I feel that someday I might have to fight for love which I know makes no sense, if it comes down to that I need the power that 'fuck it all' brings. Twisted I know, but I am the mischievous type.
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MushroomTrip
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Quote:
backfromthedead said: I find myself in the 'fuck it all' mode sometimes. Its almost like I don't want to let go of it. I feel that someday I might have to fight for love which I know makes no sense, if it comes down to that I need the power that 'fuck it all' brings. Twisted I know, but I am the mischievous type.
What do you exactly consider so twisted about it? What exactly is the nature "of fuck it all"?... I mean... in what sense... fuck it all meaning love... or fuck it all... what?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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backfromthedead
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Its like if I had gone into the military or something, I would be convinced that what's going on in Iraq is a noble cause. (questionable) If I truly cared about other human beings I would have to develop a certain amount and quality of 'fuck it all' to be able to gun them down, obliterate their cities, destroy their country. Upon coming home I would have to sweep the 'fuck it all' under the carpet. Hope that shit doesn't bulge too much.
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MushroomTrip
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How can a war ever, under any circumstance; be a noble thing?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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backfromthedead
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When a pyramid structure of uniformed mouthpieces for hate and violence brainwash you into thinking you are doing the right thing. When you are told that you are liberating an oppressed people. When the goal is democracy. It only makes it noble to the beholder. War is terrible but this is how the world operates. Do you think these 'soldiers' are capable of love when they come back?? I would think so... Only because in their mind they have done 'good'. Scary.
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6962352 - 05/24/07 05:20 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Veritas said: Love, in practical application, involves all the weird personality stuff we've collected over our lifetime.
Does it? What if one experiences this love, and this experience of this love naturally acts as an effective catalyst for personal growth? Like, propose it occurs in a manner that defies all conventional thought, dare say, defies our assumed nature of space-time.
All of our weird personality stuff is always there. The paths we choose regarding our experience of reality and our mind determine how we will be effected by an experience of love of a magnificent degree, as we have been discussing. I see it no different than how we change when we have an experience of heightened awareness, especially as the love I personally refer to implies a heightened sense of awareness.
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Infatuation is what we generally call "romantic love," and it lasts about six months, or until our brains become adjusted to the new chemical "soup" in which we're soaking them.
This perspective of "romantic love" is much different than the way I have come to understand the concept, and the quotation I posted previously of what Wiki had to say seems to specifically make the distinction that "romantic love" is not infatuation.
Now, you state that it isn't exactly a determinate amount of time before these chemicals, which dissipate, and that the state of being described by "romantic love" will start to cease.
Is this true? Is it the chemicals creating the experience or is the experience directing the brain's chemical state? I know that this has been speculated on a lot, regarding psychiatry and everything.
What if it never "wears off"?
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Once this chemical high fades, the real relationship begins.
I simply cannot buy this. I think this perspective is what brings one's idealistic relationship to end, not chemicals fading away. One can consciously create their relationship with their partner, in the present moment. It sounds much more that what you describe is to begin to center oneself out of one's being and the present moment, and to start living in the mind's conception of past again. That doesn't need to happen.
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The "pure bliss" part is something that we can come back to, but only if we get out of our own way. (Maybe the chemical infatuation helps with this initially. )
What if we are never in our own way, or if the experience of love genuinely progresses one towards not being in the way? I don't see how one could experience love and then slump away from it, if it is true love.
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This often happens, IMO, because couples neglect to become friends as well as lovers. Once they start to encounter obstacles, they decide that they have "fallen out of love" or that they did not have "true love" in the first place.
I disagree. I have been in love with someone in what I think was very much romantic love in a lot of ways but not in a complete, total way, and we also are very good friends. One really appreciates the time that one has shared, and that one has only good thoughts and wishes that they have the ultimately satisfying, amazing life, even as one wasn't the person to give it to them.
I think this only demonstrates that each relationship is entirely its own entity and that these patterns and tendencies you describe simply are not the "usual" case.
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So-called romantic lovers are more likely to seek out the next "true" love, or be suddenly swept off their feet by an uncontrollable infatuation. Then the cycle starts all over again, with the inevitable "falling out of love," disappointment, dishonesty, etc...
Yes, the "so-called" ones do act like that. What about the ones who are actually romantic lovers?
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I'm quite a bit older than either of you, and have probably been through the "true love" cycle a few more times.
So you have been through the "true love" cycle a few times... have you ever been through the true love cycle? Its a much different cycle, and it doesn't lead one from one to another and another, but back in with one, in every moment, again and again, deeper and deeper...
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FWG is familiar with Ken Keyes' take on relationships, and what is possible within a partnership, so he may understand where I'm coming from on this one.
I do not really recall what you might be referring to, but I am familiar with Handbook to Higher Consciousness and the understanding I have found through its influence on my life. It lead me on a path with the idea it gave me that one could create a path that will continually increase one's level of consciousness, as far as one would wish to immerse oneself, as quickly or as slowly as one wishes, realizing that we choose who we are and what we experience, and that choice is as free and instant as we allow it to be.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6962367 - 05/24/07 05:24 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Early in a relationship, we're excited and thrilled with the novelty and wonder of "falling in love," and we may not notice the effort required to remain loving until that newness has faded. If we believe that the feeling should be enough to keep the relationship vital and growing and loving, disappointment is inevitable.
Any relationship that we choose to experience as work and requiring effort to maintain the mutual state of being within that relationship is bound for failure. Here's your sign.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
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To know love is to fully experience it. I find myself in that state … with you. I love you with everything that I am ... you are my happiness
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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leery11
I Tell You What!
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: How can a war ever, under any circumstance; be a noble thing?
Reality is programmed linguistically through free association, especially through the media.
Thus what comes to mind when one thinks of war is a collage of fictinoal realities wherein there is always a "Clear and Present Danger" about to destroy a truely GOOD people and that these GOOD people are heros for destroying the EVIL people.
What we are taught about war is from the eyepiece on top of the pyramid as the mushroom avatar friend said..... so its easy to see how war is a good thing.
War is a good thing because it generates capital. It generates new land. It eradicates evil. It creates peace. It protects the homeland. It spreads healthy and sane ideas and kills insane ideas.
None of these are necessarily true, but they are all what is on the top of one's mind when he thinks about war because he thinks about it from inside the brains of those doing the propoganda work who believe they are fully justified in taking whatever they want and may or may not believe the stories they create to justify in the mind's of their pawns the motion necessary to get it.
For instance, Hitler succeeded in part because he destroyed all other ideas which said he was doing wrong, he evoked the Hero archetypes and wove in the threat archetypes, basically making him a Bible which to question evokes all sorts of dire consequences both physical (punishment) and mental (punishment) and one quickly finds that their reason is useless in eradicating the walls of tyranny because they are consequently reinforced by the rhetoric of the propoganda machine which operates in an instantly digestable measure of emotional pallets that are embedded deeply in the brain with vicious lions keeping those who harbor them from venturing into the much higher efforts necessary for critical thinking....... the critical thinkers are crucified and demonized and
its a prison system it is the eye and if the eye wants a pyramid it damn well has one!
our Army commercials do not show dead babies and crying mothers and soldiers writhing in agony, they show young strapping men getting pats on the back for serving their country, for being cool suave and sophisticated in learning all these massively kewl radical technologies that allow the grunts to kill with surgical proficiency from within the context of a video-game world.... and heavy metal masculine energy to the tune of rockets flying out of battle ships.
couple this with a lifetime of GI Joes and toy guns and war movies and violent media and you have a system which creates an entire generatino of young men ripe for recruitment.... we really don't need drafting when war is this damn cool.
Tim Leary was actually at West Point.....
plus we have to defend our loved ones from the boogeymen!
Edited by leery11 (05/24/07 05:47 PM)
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fireworks_god
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You're breaking the fourth wall!
I love you too, my wonderful love, from the depths of my being.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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backfromthedead
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: leery11]
#6962480 - 05/24/07 06:04 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Shite. That post was right on.
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mushbaby
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Quote:
DrCamacho89 said:
Quote:
mushbaby said: Romantic love is beautiful, but usually has so much baggage attached that it's hard to enjoy. At least for me, I have a tendency to be insecure.
The deepest, strongest, purest love I have ever known was when my children were born. There's absolutely nothing on earth like it. I can actually feel the love like a presence in our home.
Why is that? Why do people feel a deeper love to someone that they can control or at least feel a stronger sense of control? I feel our society has made it so difficult for one to truly experience love with another human being because we cannot accept the fact that a person had a life before us, and could have a life after if things go awry.
With a child, a parent/child love will be there throughout their existence. That is a deeper bond, but one in which I feel people ignore their spouses and themselves because the feelings aren't as strong. It's sad really. We place too much emphasis on our children.
Truly love someone who has not let anyone else truly love them before, regardless of baggage, and you will see what true love and happiness really is.
I also don't see why romantic love is conditional love. On the rare times that I do give out my love, it is always unconditional. Anything else would not be considered love in my opinion.
Sorry, just now had a chance to respond:
It seems to me that you belittle the love between a parent/child, but if you read alot of the posts on this thread you see that the lack of this love during many people's childhood affects them the rest of their lives. And affects their ability to experience romantic love.
My husband and I (together 8 yrs.) do not feel that the kids detracted from our love for each other. It has deepened and matured it.
Now back to the rest of the thread: I agree with Veritas in that life is messy. Loving someone does not mean everything will be wonderful all the time. It's a little idealistic. But I reckon most true romantics are idealistic. Not necessarily a bad thing.
I have real love for my man. I have stood by him through some bad times, as he has for me. But that doesn't mean that we still don't have problems to work through. That is what real love is about. IMO
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: mushbaby]
#6963442 - 05/24/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushbaby said: I agree with Veritas in that life is messy. Loving someone does not mean everything will be wonderful all the time. It's a little idealistic. But I reckon most true romantics are idealistic. Not necessarily a bad thing.
Have you seen Batman Begins? If we do not center our life's path around ideals, then what shall we say regarding our experience of reality? If we devote ourselves to an idea, then doesn't our existance go beyond simply our human form? Consider the propagation of ideas throughout time. Surely ideas are impermanent as well and there is no reason to being attached to an idea... but isn't consciously choosing to exist in an ideal form thus creating our experience of reality?
Don't we be who we wish to be? If you find someone who realizes this as well and you feel compelled to choose to be together and how they will be together, all very naturally and accomplished simply by being present, then won't one's relationship take the form that one and one's partner choose?
Since when is being idealistic a negative attribute, when one is also capable of acting in accordance with that ideal in one's interaction with reality in order to manifest it?
Quote:
But that doesn't mean that we still don't have problems to work through. That is what real love is about.
If I may note an observation, I have noticed that the more two choose to consciously focus upon their mutal experience of love, the more these problems (although I can't even think of any of these ) will solve themselves naturally, through experiencing reality together as one being. The first best step would be to simply admire the other and consider all of the ways that one loves them, to actually experience that love, and then to express it to them, and to stimulate them to experience that love as well.
If one finds that one is not consciously experiencing love within one's relationship, then one needs to become receptive to it and play one's role in sharing it. If it is true love, the romantic love as I have expressed it to be in this thread, then there won't be much resistance to being receptive in each other - it will simply be a natural state.
If one feels that one has to work at something, then one is attempting to accomplish something without the flowing river with which to sail it. That's the experience of love, a prerequisite on the experience of love.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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spiritualemerg
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DrCamacho89: Here is a video that I found that really applies to my current situation and I think can be appreciated by all of us romantics floating around out there... The Promise
Beautiful.
You may enjoy some explorations in this theme, DrCamacho: The Inner Beloved
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-------------------- ~ Kindness is cheap. It's unkindness that always demands the highest price. Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis
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spiritualemerg
Stranger
Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
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Good grist... It goes lovely with Tracy Chapman's song.
unconditional love the lover, the beloved and the act of loving...
True love is beyond thoughts, feelings and emotions. it is the expression of the Trinity of the lover - the beloved - the act of loving expressed through Being in the moment.
The Essence of Unconditional Love In truth, meditation is the state and the art of doing no-thing and being every-thing. Prayer is the inner communion with every-thing and doing no-thing.
Both are states of "Love" (doing no-thing) in communion with "God" (being every-thing). There are no words, no thoughts, no feelings, no emotions. These come later - in retrospect and we view our experience and our knowing through what we have been taught to believe is right and proper action.
Unconditional Love and God "Love" and "God" are two of the words many have been accustomed to using in an attempt to paint a picture of this essence. Yet, they are the drop which exists within the ocean and the ocean which exists within the drop. They cannot be separated.
Scholars and scribes down through the ages have sought to find words for this concept. For every age, for every cultural spirituality there has been an attempt by the mind of man to put words around this essence.
The oldest continually surviving civilization on Earth - the Australian Aboriginal has kept the concept of the dreaming alive for over 40,000 years. Their myths and legends bear a remarkable resemblance to the attempts of the mystics of the common era - yet, their cave paintings are much older. Their "walkabout" and their tribal rituals are a moving meditation and prayer - a communion with the world around them which they practice to this very day.
Learning Love When we were babies, we had no identity except that given to us by our parents. Later, this sense of identity was added to by the hopes, fears and expectations of others.
In our learned behavior for survival, we learned to develop attachments to those things which raised our approval rating in the eyes of our support network - parents, religion - society.
From this conditioning environment we learned a meaning of love that was not unconditional .. a Love that was Convulsive.
Growing Up and out of Love Most of us have never been allowed to grow beyond our childhood dependencies because, being needed felt good. Fulfilling the expectations of another was rewarded and hell would descend the moment we spoke out - unless we were united in a common speaking out.
As we have aged as children, we have translated our infant emotional motivations into attachments to "how do we fit into the support network with which we surround ourselves" in the search for understanding of who we are, we have sought some sort of acceptable idea of identity.
The person who dies is free of this - unless, we, refusing to acknowledge our own unfulfilled expectations, project them in the form of prayers of grief on the soul of the departed.
Unconditional Love - The Christ Consciousness The essence of the Unconditional Love that is the embodiment of the Christ Consciousness can not be equated to the love of a mother for her daughter, a teenager for his or her first car or your hankering after a Big Mac.
Unconditional Love more closely resembles the relationship between two very young children when they are left together alone in a room without any adult intervention. A playful innocence that we were born with.
Unconditional Love had nothing to do with needs, wants, hopes and expectations. This is an emotional love and grief is the end result of these emotional energies not being balanced by another person or thing.
To deal with grief and loss, the only thing one has to deal with is the unfulfilled expectations - the collapse of the symbol of what we have not been able to realize within our selves.
the lover - the beloved - the act of loving The act of Loving is the separation many impose on their children through need. People say to me "You are Loved". I refuse to accept that. The moment I am expected to accept that I am loved, from my realization of my own wholeness, there is a duality created and then a trinity ..
In the separation from the intrinsic nature of my own beingness - I blaspheme against my Self. Through this blasphemy, I then create the unloved and so another duality is formed.
Then along comes judgment of self on self. The moment I accept that I am loved, I, ego-mind becomes separate from the expression of wholeness.
The Embrace of Unconditional Love Within Islam, the essence of Jihad is the struggle within the mind and the body to find this re-union of Self within One's Self.
To hold to be separate is to disregard both the First and Second commandments of Christianity - where, when we go back to the original scriptures (not the translations into any language) we find that here is no God, but the metaphor used is the breath.
Unconditional Love is YHWH - the present continuing tense of the verb be .. and translates as I am in the act of being .. there is no separation.
Unconditional Love is symbolised in the Jewish "Star of David" (as the interpenetration of all pairs of opposites) which evolved from the primary "Sri Yantra" which is the pictographic representation of the vibration of the perpetual harmony of the spheres - "OM"
In the Tao, it is written First there was the eternal Tao From the Tao came One From One came Two From Two came Three From Three came ten thousand other things.
This is the essential flow of the tides .. and of the breath .. from full to empty, from empty to full .. neither existing on their own -
For me to accept that I am loved, I become the object of the lover - thus I develop an expectation. The moment that expectation (or need) is not met there is the breeding ground for anger and resentment .. and the moment the lover is lost, the empty space of unfulfilled need and expectation is called grief.
This is the inner battle which leads to tiredness, and, in projecting love or a need for love onto any other, we are contributing to the struggle of the other in order to satisfy our own needs and lack ..
Thus we call ourselves devoutly spiritual.
Love's Gift The greatest gift we can share with another is through allowing the other to share in the reflection of our essential beingness - to share with other a glimpse of what is their potential .. to allow them to see that to which their eyes may be closed .. because the mind cannot grasp that which it cannot visualize or conceptualize.
Thus, the true teacher can not teach you anything but can only remind you of what on some level you already know.
This is the essential meaning of the Greek root of the term Therapist ..
The Priest-Healer who through his or her being allows one to see that to which they have been blinded but which on some level they already know.
Unconditional Love .. the Essence I AM is life itself in the continuing moment of living dying each moment to a succeeding moment of living ..
this is the freedom of Unconditional Love ..
What we call "God" is to allow the flow of Tao
In Hindu terms, this is the essence and the absorption of Bhakti the true spirit of the sacred warp and weft of the weave that is called Tantra and the definition of Yoga.
In Buddhism, this the experience of Brahminakaya and living it is Shamballah .. being the essential expression of one's Buddha nature.
This is Heaven in Earth and the focus of the Lords Prayer.
It is the objective, the experience and end result of ZaZen - and the "sound of one hand clapping".
Yin and Yang combined to make the whole, yet Yin exists within Yang and Yang within Yin.
When we journey into deepest Africa or Borneo or the Jungles of South America, we find symbols and metaphors which convey the same essence.
Does the tree falling in the forest make a sound?
The Sacrifice to Unconditional Love Do you think you are separate?
So long as you are separate, "ego I" will always be a sacrifice - a victim of the God outside of self.
It is man's eternal quest outside of self for the "Promised Land" that has created the diversity in the species and the concept of lack which can never be filled unless,
in the Silence beyond all words the mind is allowed to descend into the Common Heart which exists within each ..
"The ocean which exists within the drop"
Unconditional Love
Source: The Lover, The Beloved and the Act of Loving
[Image Source: The Mystic Heart] Quote of the Hour: Love is the Highest Form of Intelligence Music of the Hour: The Promise.
Edited by spiritualemerg (05/24/07 11:14 PM)
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
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Loc: in my own lil world
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Fireworks, you're saying that it's a prerequisite that love flow like a river? Rivers have rapids and reversals and waterfalls. There's log jams and snakes even. Riding a river is hard work! Doesn't mean it's not enjoyable and exhilirating. The rewards wouldn't be so great or appreciated so much if it was easy.
Are we really who we see ourselves to be? That's an idea for another thread. But to a point we are. I know I am not the only one but abuse at an early age taught me that while you can see yourself a certain way and see life a certain way that reality has a way of shoving itself down your throat sometimes.
I am very blessed to be with a good man. But he's not perfect and neither am I. It's not the love that requires work, it's the day to day of two adults living together that requires work for harmony. Maybe that better explains what I am trying to say.
I hope I am not coming across as argumentative, cuz I am really just debating. I like this forum! I would love to continue this debate but I am about to fall asleep. I'll check it tommorrow.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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I just wanted to kick in that beyond emotional states, psychologically (soulfully) taken, love is defined theologically as a matter of the 'will.' Will, in some schools of theological thought (to which I subscribe) is more essential than intellect (or feeling). Being able to 'will the good' for someone, even if one is angry, hurt or rejected by another, indicates a transcendental intention that is ontologically prior to any of the thoughts or feeling surrounding that intention. Loving then, is willing the good, despite personal feelings (or thoughts) about the person. One can therefore 'love one's enemies' without liking one's enemies, and in so doing, one 'aligns' oneself with the "Transcendental Ego" AKA 'the Will of God,' and become transformed in the process.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
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Loc: red panda village
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Yes, the Will is a very powerful tool. It is the true indicator of a the direct intention which is here to pass and combat any undesired and negative "mood". It is when we become aware of our love and we freely choose that we want to follow that lead no matter what disturbing passenger factors may arise.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Loc: red panda village
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: mushbaby]
#6963878 - 05/24/07 11:33 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Are we really who we see ourselves to be? That's an idea for another thread. But to a point we are. I know I am not the only one but abuse at an early age taught me that while you can see yourself a certain way and see life a certain way that reality has a way of shoving itself down your throat sometimes.
We are always growing if we allow that grow to happen, or, even more to that, if we provoke it. We are the strongest determinants of who are are and what we become. Sure, outside factors will always have an influence on us... but that is precisely why we are aware beings. To make those situations turn into something constructive. Bad (as in harsh experiences) will happen too. But we grow from them. We explore reality with the one we love... in each of it's aspects and we get the most of it. But those things make a relationship even stronger if both partners are determined. I feel the need to know everything with the one I love, to grow together and to be in a continuous state of exchange of ideas and dreams and feelings.
Quote:
I am very blessed to be with a good man. But he's not perfect and neither am I. It's not the love that requires work, it's the day to day of two adults living together that requires work for harmony. Maybe that better explains what I am trying to say.
Please define here you concept of perfection. Obviously, if you're referring to a general term, nobody is perfect. On the other hand, if you love someone it means that this person is prefect for you (with everything that he is). If we know the essence of the one we love, how van we find an obstacle in some things that are being considered, by the public opinion, as being imperfect?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Loc: Pandurn
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: mushbaby]
#6963951 - 05/24/07 11:50 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushbaby said: Fireworks, you're saying that it's a prerequisite that love flow like a river?
I don't recall saying so...
I recall stating that one needs to experience the state of love in order to love and to experience the state of love. Either it is here in this moment or it isn't, for whatever reason, even if it is simply a temporary obstruction.
Perhaps on one of the more underlying levels of ourselves, it is always there, but not consciously - thus, without a conscious experience of that state of love, one's acts in attempt to work past obstructions on one's love does not really have any effectiveness. Love is like water, it simply flows, and is has the same power that water has over time. The degree to which one loves will determine that length of time it takes to resolve obstructions, the way that a stream will work away stone to carve out its bed.
Quote:
Rivers have rapids and reversals and waterfalls. There's log jams and snakes even. Riding a river is hard work! Doesn't mean it's not enjoyable and exhilirating. The rewards wouldn't be so great or appreciated so much if it was easy.
Yes, but our conscious choices in this moment determine the nature of the course of that river, as we are the ones who are directing our lives down our path through it. Now, with a relationship, there are two individuals that are determining the course the river that is their interactions in this moment (a relationship). This still doesn't mean it is hard work if each other are both immersed within the love they mutually share, if they choose that they will consciously decide how it will be (but sometimes I wonder if there is even a choice being made.... yes, but it feels different because it simply made itself, as the right choice ).
This doesn't mean that it is "easy", only, natural. The more that one is struggling to continually stay within the same loving state as the other, the less they are experiencing the depths of their being in this present moment. Things like rocks and logs and snakes are simply distractions from sharing that love. That is not to state that they do not effectively act in accordance with what reality presents in order to navigate through it, but simply that this process of navigating reality does not act as an obstruction to the continual sharing of that love. External circumstances are irrelevant to romantic love as I have described it.
Quote:
Are we really who we see ourselves to be?
That is a question of our eye-sight. The real question is are we really who we decide we are?
Quote:
It's not the love that requires work, it's the day to day of two adults living together that requires work for harmony. Maybe that better explains what I am trying to say.
Yes, and to better explain what I am attempting to convey in response to this, it really isn't "work" in that, in this continual state of love, these things simply work themself out, naturally. We utilize our influence in an effective manner to navigate the circumstances of reality, centered around the sharing of that love, and we accept the nature of reality and apply a subtle influence to direct our lives throughout its processes.
Quote:
I hope I am not coming across as argumentative, cuz I am really just debating. I like this forum! I would love to continue this debate but I am about to fall asleep. I'll check it tommorrow.
Yes, these are two great things about this forum. Firstly, if you do need to fall asleep (but first fight that urge! ), the discussion is always here tomorrow. Secondly, this forum is intended for the discussion of ideas, so you don't need to worry if someone will start to draw assumptions regarding your personal nature, because everyone centers themselves around that spirit, for the most part. At the very least, you won't see someone start to act on it, or else they will be told to take it to pm's.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said:
[Please define here you concept of perfection. Obviously, if you're referring to a general term, nobody is perfect. On the other hand, if you love someone it means that this person is prefect for you (with everything that he is). If we know the essence of the one we love, how van we find an obstacle in some things that are being considered, by the public opinion, as being imperfect?
What I mean by us being imperfect is that even though we love each other unfortunately we don't always act in a loving matter. A bad day can bring out the worst in people. Sometimes causing us to be selfish, short-tempered or just plain ill. My husband struggles with an addictive personality (not the ideal but the reality) and I have many, many moods (not always good!) When these two issues clash on the same day there can be fireworks. Having someone say something mean then slam out the door can bring the question of "Do I really love this person" to mind. In 8 years it has happened once or twice. The answer was (obviously) yes! I do love him, and so I am still here.
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
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Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: mushbaby]
#6964721 - 05/25/07 07:35 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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If it's not too personal a question, FireworksGod and MushroomTrip are either of you currently in long-term relationships? Have you found "that someone"?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: mushbaby]
#6965106 - 05/25/07 10:17 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushbaby said: If it's not too personal a question, FireworksGod and MushroomTrip are either of you currently in long-term relationships? Have you found "that someone"?
Yes We have found each other And I love him with my entire being. So yes, I have "that someone" that brings all the happiness and love into my life. Needless to say that it's the most profound and amazing feeling out there. I am overwhelmed in love
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: mushbaby]
#6965285 - 05/25/07 11:16 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushbaby said: What I mean by us being imperfect is that even though we love each other unfortunately we don't always act in a loving matter. A bad day can bring out the worst in people. Sometimes causing us to be selfish, short-tempered or just plain ill. My husband struggles with an addictive personality (not the ideal but the reality) and I have many, many moods (not always good!) When these two issues clash on the same day there can be fireworks. Having someone say something mean then slam out the door can bring the question of "Do I really love this person" to mind. In 8 years it has happened once or twice. The answer was (obviously) yes! I do love him, and so I am still here.
This is the difference between loving someone and being "in love," in my opinion. When you are "in love," you believe that you will NEVER question whether or not you love them, that they could NEVER do anything which you would find hurtful or disappointing, and that you will always find it effortless to remain "in love."
When you make the transition from "in love," aka INFATUATED, to loving, you recognize that you are dealing with a human being, not a god or goddess, and that you, yourself, are a human being. This re-grounding can make or break a relationship, and those who stay together post-infatuation are beginning their REAL relationship.
I like to call the infatuation phase "floating on a pink cloud," as it is highly hormonally-influenced, and rarely marred by an argument or disappointment. The lovers idealize each other and their connection, and firmly believe that this state will never, ever be altered. Needless to say, the hormones produced during this phase are seriously mind-altering.
The most-prevalent infatuation-producing hormone is PEA, which produces feelings of euphoria, sensations of oneness with the beloved, intensified experience of one's surroundings, increased physical wellbeing, alternating peacefulness and intense excitement, as well as major withdrawal symptoms during separation from the beloved. IOW, all the hallmarks of Romance.
For more on this, read "The Alchemy of Love and Lust," by Dr. Teresa Crenshaw, an endocrinologist. This book is an amazing "User's Guide" to the human endocrinological system.
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Recondicom
Power of four
Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
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S_merg said: Unconditional Love is symbolised in the Jewish "Star of David" (as the interpenetration of all pairs of opposites) which evolved from the primary "Sri Yantra" which is the pictographic representation of the vibration of the perpetual harmony of the spheres - "OM"
In the Tao, it is written First there was the eternal Tao From the Tao came One From One came Two From Two came Three From Three came ten thousand other things. The Axiom of Maria, a hermetic principle is much like that. The four functions; the four archetypes; the four points of a cross. The house of David. The embrace of unconditional love.Humm... maybe that's why is called the Axiom of Maria.
-------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Epigallo]
#6965391 - 05/25/07 11:39 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
bradleycny said: Do you think your position of being "not too interested in humanity", as you expressed in that thread a while ago, was present when you had that overwhelming experience of love?
Just curious where you're coming from.
Yes I do. I am not interested now nor was I then interested in peoples personality structures per se, but the heart connection underneath. Mostly we use our personality structures in the service of hiding and self-importance. While personality structures can be interesting and quirky they are mostly creations of culture.
Edited by Icelander (05/25/07 11:44 AM)
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
If one feels that one has to work at something, then one is attempting to accomplish something without the flowing river with which to sail it. That's the experience of love, a prerequisite on the experience of love.
BTW this is where I interpreted you as saying that love is like a flowing river. Maybe I read it wrong, but it was very late for me last night!
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: mushbaby]
#6966307 - 05/25/07 04:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sounds very poetic, doesn't it?
True romantic love is the only cosmic truth. It overcomes anything in the Universe. Only those who are worthy will ever know it and so the rest will skof in their ignorance.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Loc: Pandurn
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: mushbaby]
#6966312 - 05/25/07 04:14 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushbaby said: BTW this is where I interpreted you as saying that love is like a flowing river. Maybe I read it wrong, but it was very late for me last night!
Well, it was kind of what I was trying to say. Last night was a very late night for me as well, and I was attempting to refer to the power that water has to work agansit stone and earth. I was basically implying that, without the experience of and being within love, any attempt without that experience to modify the nature of reality in order to experience that love will not produce love. It is unconditional, remember? Love will change you, its much more difficult to change oneself in order to love.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
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Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6966668 - 05/25/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
When you are "in love," you believe that you will NEVER question whether or not you love them, that they could NEVER do anything which you would find hurtful or disappointing, and that you will always find it effortless to remain "in love."
And having moments when asking yourself if you're still in love with that person is supposed to come as a thing that makes the difference? And putting effort in remaining in love testifies true love? I'm seriously having doubts about that. If one finds oneself asking that (if they are still in love with their partner), I think that there are serious problems regarding that relationship since LOVE comes without any doubt and draws by itself the state of being in love
Now about thinking that the one you love would NEVER hurt or deceive you in any way happens to people who are full of ego, because their thinking is very self centered so they're immature. I don't think that one can fully experience true love in a state of immaturity (and by that I'm referring to psychological immaturity). One who never managed to get over himself/herself will probably think that the one they love will behave only according to their wishes. This is again wrong thinking which comes from the lack of maturity. When it comes to true love one would never think such an impossible thing, and in the same time, due to the love one feels, one would be aware of the fact that those incidents will not turn into issues that would make them doubt their love.
Quote:
When you make the transition from "in love," aka INFATUATED, to loving, you recognize that you are dealing with a human being, not a god or goddess, and that you, yourself, are a human being. This re-grounding can make or break a relationship, and those who stay together post-infatuation are beginning their REAL relationship.
Again, I think that this comes from being mature and aware enough. If one enters in a relationship by being immature, chances are that he/she will get all confused and go from a state a total worshiping to total disappointment. But in my opinion this is related to the lack of experience or ability to learn from past experiences. We only realize that we're dealing with a human being after we fall out of love? . I think that if we are able to discern we can see that from the start even if we chose to treat the one we love as a god/goddess. This comes from the need to express one's feelings and the desire of making the one we love feel as happy and as loved as possible. We choose on our own Will to remain in love, a state which doesn't come in contradiction to real love. Those two feelings go well hand in hand and I see no contradiction in that How can being in love and in the same time loving a person not be a real relationship? I strongly believe that one can have a real and strong connection, on every aspect with his/hers partner, even if there's also attraction involved.
Now getting back to the Will to love. This makes us come in direct contact with the Universal love which is the greatest expression of love and which in extent will make us be in a constant state of development. It brings acceptance and allowance. In my opinion, true romantic love involves this law of the Will
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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spiritualemerg
Stranger
Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Recondicom]
#6966715 - 05/25/07 06:55 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Recondicom: The Axiom of Maria, a hermetic principle is much like that. The four functions; the four archetypes; the four points of a cross. The house of David. The embrace of unconditional love.Humm... maybe that's why is called the Axiom of Maria.
I went googling...
Quote:
Axiom of Maria. A precept in alchemy: "One becomes two, two becomes three, and out of the third comes the one as the fourth."
Jung used the axiom of Maria as a metaphor for the whole process of individuation. One is the original state of unconscious wholeness; two signifies the conflict between opposites; three points to a potential resolution; the third is the transcendent function; and the one as the fourth is a transformed state of consciousness, relatively whole and at peace.
Source: The Jung Lexicon
You've been gathering up your own notes too Recondicom. A number of my own notes are at my Spiritual Emergency blog. I have no idea who reads there so I don't know if you have, but you're certainly welcome to wander through and make use of anything that is useful to you. This page may also be useful to you: Summary.
Incidentally, a simple tool I found very helpful was a timeline. By placing events on the timeline I could see the relationship between them. I don't know if that's something that might be useful to you but I'll offer it up in case it is.
S_merg <-- Within this environment people know me by the label of "spiritual_emergency". The easiest way to shorten that is probably like this: s_e, this: se, or this: SE.
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-------------------- ~ Kindness is cheap. It's unkindness that always demands the highest price. Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis
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spiritualemerg
Stranger
Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6966795 - 05/25/07 07:21 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Thanks again for sharing that song/vid DrCamacho. It's been on my playlist steadily since I clicked that link last night. It's truly beautiful. Meanwhile, here's another link that you may enjoy: The Hieros Gamos.
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-------------------- ~ Kindness is cheap. It's unkindness that always demands the highest price. Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis
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spiritualemerg
Stranger
Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
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May the light of love be kindled in our hearts as we walk out from these doors.
May the quiet inner voice of the beloved rise to consciousness and show us the way
May we all find our Beloved, each in our own way and according to our own understanding.
Go in peace, make peace, be at peace.
© 1995 by Rev. Samuel A. Trumbore
Source: Seeking the BelovedSee also: The Beloved One
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-------------------- ~ Kindness is cheap. It's unkindness that always demands the highest price. Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6967971 - 05/26/07 12:32 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: When you make the transition from "in love," aka INFATUATED, to loving, you recognize that you are dealing with a human being, not a god or goddess, and that you, yourself, are a human being. This re-grounding can make or break a relationship, and those who stay together post-infatuation are beginning their REAL relationship.
When does this transition occur, do you feel? What causes the transition to occur? Re-grounding? "REAL relationship"? To think that changes manifested as one discovers more and more deeply one's shared love with another would regress at some point? Apparently, as humans, we are not capable of setting our own path, living it, and consciously changing as a result?
You propose that we regress into past patterns of behavior and thought? Why? It sounds like one causes oneself to begin obstructing that experience of love with their own preconceived sense of identity.
If one were to refer to one's mutually shared, estatic experience of romantic love as simply an illusion, then I would wonder why one could not have stayed within that loving state of being. What is it exactly that brought one back into one's past, instead of that conscious perception of one's ideal state, full of romantic love? What is it that brought one down? Does everyone lose sight of who they are changing into due to the feeling of love within them? Does one lose sense of that potential, and does one begin to stop manifesting that potential in this moment, with the sharing of that love?
I don't see why it has to be this way. I don't see why love like this could not be honest and could not be the beginning of a path that will take them much deeper and more fully in love with each other. It's hard to dissolve within each other if you assert that one must regress into one's past behavior and thought processes that obstruct mutually sharing love together. When awareness and self-realization are intricately involved in the relationship, there is nothing to obstruct the love.
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I like to call the infatuation phase "floating on a pink cloud," as it is highly hormonally-influenced, and rarely marred by an argument or disappointment. The lovers idealize each other and their connection, and firmly believe that this state will never, ever be altered.
So, what, exactly? Soon the lovers will begin to be negative with each other? Soon they will dislike aspects of each other? Soon they will not be as intimately interested in each other? Do they get their fill? Is this what always happens?
We make conscious decisions as to who we are. If some decide to be that way, then it is their decision. Each individual is capable of manifesting themselves in accordance with any potential preferred. We all make our choices as to who we will be. I know I've made mine.
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The most-prevalent infatuation-producing hormone is PEA, which produces feelings of euphoria, sensations of oneness with the beloved, intensified experience of one's surroundings, increased physical wellbeing, alternating peacefulness and intense excitement, as well as major withdrawal symptoms during separation from the beloved. IOW, all the hallmarks of Romance.
There is a chemical that correlates with every sort of emotion and quality of our experience. Its amazing that we have identified this and associated these experiences with certain chemical reactions. In fact, our brain has all sorts of chemical reactions occuring.
Yeah and so what? You never answered my question regarding how long it takes before the chemicals "wear off".
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6967992 - 05/26/07 12:42 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Sounds very poetic, doesn't it?
True romantic love is the only cosmic truth. It overcomes anything in the Universe. Only those who are worthy will ever know it and so the rest will skof in their ignorance.
\
Sounds about right.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6968143 - 05/26/07 01:47 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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The first post made me cry for minutes the day it came. Heartfelt energy.
The rest is just blah blah and twisting of words that mean the same thing.
Maybe.
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Recondicom
Power of four
Registered: 05/03/07
Posts: 226
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I see determinism associated with Logos and free will associate with Eros. Turner and her colleagues tested the idea that oxytocin is released in response to intense emotional states in addition to physical cues. Twenty-six non-lactating women between the ages of 23 and 35 were asked to recall and re-experience a past relationship event that caused them to feel a positive emotion, such as love or infatuation, and a negative emotion, such as loss or abandonment. Because massage done on rats had previously been shown to influence oxytocin levels, the participants also received a 15-minute Swedish massage of the neck and shoulders. Blood samples were taken before, during, and after each of the three events to measure baseline oxytocin levels in the bloodstream and any change. The results, on average, were of borderline significance - relaxation massage caused oxytocin levels to rise slightly and recollection of a negative emotion caused oxytocin levels to fall slightly. Recollection of a positive emotion, on average, had no effect. Women whose oxytocin levels rose in response to massage and remembering a positive relationship reported having little difficulty setting appropriate boundaries, being alone, and trying too hard to please others. Women whose oxytocin levels fell in response to remembering a negative emotional relationship reported greater problems with experiencing anxiety in close relationships. "It seems that having this hormone "available" during positive experiences, and not being depleted of it during negative experiences, is associated with well-being in relationships," said Turner.
Pleasure center is a group of brain structures: the nucleus accumbens is a major one. An addiction is also a kind of love-hate relationship. When speaking of hate, we try to make the association to cognitive bias. Not so with love or faith. We close the eyes in a figuratively way. The psychic energies are the most interesting parts... and the rituals.
"Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad".
-------------------- Wave. 'And for this reason repentance (metanoia) is an elevating means. For he who feels impatience with the circunstances in which he finds himself, devises means of escape. Now the chief thing in purification is the will. For then both deeds and words lend a helping hand. But, when the will is absent, the whole purificatory discipline of initiation is...'
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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PEA levels remain set at "infatuation" for an average of six months. This period may be extended by breaking up and getting back together, or by remaining in contact while at a distance from one another. Inevitably, though, we start responding to contact with less and less PEA. Novelty is a major factor in both infatuation and (for males) sexual attraction.
As to the rest of your post, I cannot answer "why" reality is as it is--it JUST IS.
Re-grounding in reality after a long period of mind-altering hormonal levels is NOT regression, but heightened awareness of the nature of reality. The pink cloud is cloud-like in its' ability to obscure. A relationship based on infatuation is not based on a clear perception of reality.
This is not to say that lovers do not get to know one another at all during their honeymoon phase, but rather that the opportunity to truly see one another will arise after the infatuation fades and True Love may begin.
Edited by Veritas (05/26/07 07:54 AM)
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Icelander
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: dorkus]
#6968629 - 05/26/07 08:01 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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dr_mandelbrot said: The first post made me cry for minutes the day it came. Heartfelt energy.
The rest is just blah blah and twisting of words that mean the same thing.
Maybe.
Mostly this turned into a I love my cosmic girlfriend thread and she and I are far beyond the cosmic reality continuum.
But others have gotten what this thread is about. Day to day endeavors to love everything. Trying to love it all and including your imperfect self. It's the essence of spirituality for me. Frankly, I'm not good at it. I am however aware of that and that's something.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6968910 - 05/26/07 10:00 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Mostly this turned into a I love my cosmic girlfriend thread and she and I are far beyond the cosmic reality continuum.
You know, if you really want to take this in that direction, I would suggest that you consider rereading The Handbook to Higher Consciousness. We are our own limitations. Our path is that which we choose it to be. It is basically being implied in this thread that, inevitably, the circumstances of life will start to cause one to be obstructed from the experience of love and that its a struggle, and this notion belies everything I understand regarding the nature of awareness and our ability to create ourselves.
Its like saying that there will inevitably be a "bad" day and that it will make us feel "bad" as a result. Well, whether or not it is a "bad" day is a matter of interpretation, and whether or not one feels "bad" due to an external situation within reality is one's own choice. The more we dedicate ourselves to consciously choosing how we will experience reality, and how we will act within reality, the more we actually are who we wish to be.
It is not idealism, as it is rooted in pratical application. Dedicating oneself to a higher standard of existance implies that one will see reality through those terms and will act in accordance with it, so that it naturally materalizes, in this present moment. Not everyone can run a marathon, and perhaps those who hit their personal wall and have to struggle to keep running it assume that it is the nature of reality for everyone.
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Frankly, I'm not good at it. I am however aware of that and that's something.
Its not as much as being good at it.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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What's being implied in this thread is that the illusions created during infatuation will inevitably be shown for what they are--illusions and fantasies.
The day-to-day action of loving your partner, friends, strangers, self, family, etc...has nothing to do with fantasy, and everything to do with reality. The obstructions to practicing this loving ARE real, which is not to say that they are insurmountable.
The first step in experiencing reality is to see reality, to the best of our perceptive ablities, and whatever ideals and high standards we may have as to how we prefer reality to be must be seen in contrast to what currently IS.
I read a quote once that I'm reminded of now, and I will have to paraphrase as I do not recall the author:
Balance is not about remaining in balance at all times, but rather noticing when you have lost your balance & gracefully returning.
This is what the action of loving looks like...not a struggle, but a recognition of when we've moved away from loving, and a graceful return to that center. An acceptance of both the moving away AND the returning, without the judgment of "this is not true love because we have failed in our ideals." This is loving between humans, flaws and obstructions and all, and it simply does not look like the fragile fantasies of infatuation.
However much we may desire to be ONE with our beloved, we are two. Intimacy is wonderful precisely because we are two, because we trust enough to be vulnerable and reveal ourselves, because of the mystery, because of the discovery.
We are able to see the world as described by our beloved, and share their emotions through deep empathy, but we do not share one perception of reality. This is all for the good, as the contrast and comparison between our POV can reveal the flaws and obstructions present in our own perceptive filters. The learning experience available to us in this kind of deep intimate friendship is invaluable.
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6969030 - 05/26/07 10:53 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Verities said: PEA levels remain set at "infatuation" for an average of six months. This period may be extended by breaking up and getting back together, or by remaining in contact while at a distance from one another. Inevitably, though, we start responding to contact with less and less PEA. Novelty is a major factor in both infatuation and (for males) sexual attraction.
And what is this understanding based upon, precisely? You know, I just read an interesting article relating to PEA...
http://www.webmd.com/news/20010927/is-runners-high-cure-for-depression
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Now a British research team reports early findings suggesting that moderate exercise increases PEA levels for most people. They argue that this increase causes the euphoric mood often called "runners' high." And because depressed people tend to have low PEA levels, the researchers say there now is an explanation of why exercise has a natural antidepressant action.
So, if someone continues moderate exercise for an extended period of time, does the "novelty" of moderate exercise wear off, and they start to become depressed again?
It sounds as though there is something that triggers this chemical mentally, and that this chemical is an integral aspect of our human experience itself, not simply when we are in "romantic love". Perhaps this romantic love triggers it much more due to clear reasons, like finding someone who connects with you on so many levels, as a person and as a friend and as a lover, for being so happy that you found someone who feels the same way about you in the same ways, etc. etc. etc., yet perhaps, after awhile, most people's minds simply stop triggering it?
Seems possible, because people tend to always take things for granted.... except for those who consciously choose not to.
The chemical comes and goes with the state of mind, and that is subject to the individual. Essentially, you are saying that it is not possible to have a relationship in which the individuals constantly interact with each other in such a manner that deeply and profoundly amazes the other, to constantly stimulate each other in new ways, on a variety of levels... and you point to the chemical composition of studies of individuals who have not had this type of relationship as proof.
In this present moment, there is no "novelty" wearing off due to the trend of time and experience, as there is simply the two individuals, the here and now, and how they consciously choose to be within this moment. Handbook to Higher Consciousness, anyone? Was the fourth through seventh level of consciousness as outlined in the book simply a myth? Was the notion proposed that we can choose our path in relation to this and sustain it, as outlined in the book, a lie? Stupid, ignorant optimism in the face of "reality", the trends of those only temporarily accessing those levels of consciousness, in a conditional manner?
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Re-grounding in reality after a long period of mind-altering hormonal levels is NOT regression, but heightened awareness of the nature of reality. The pink cloud is cloud-like in its' ability to obscure.
Phenethylamine is intricately linked to psychedelics commonly experienced in these parts. LSD, anyone? You refer to mind-altering hormonal levels as though it were a negative attribute, an obstruction to our perceptions. Well, news for you, everything is "mind-altering".
Could you perhaps elaborate as to how this "pink cloud" obscures one's perception and awareness of the nature of reality?
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A relationship based on infatuation is not based on a clear perception of reality.
What about a relationship that is based upon clear perception of reality and upon unconditional love, friendship, and consciousness, that incidentally involves aspects that you would classify as "infatuation"?
Perhaps a relationship based upon infatuation on its own is doomed to a time at which the chemical is no longer utilized by the brain in the same manner and the individuals begin to question the nature of that relationship. Clearly this is not the nature of all relationships.
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This is not to say that lovers do not get to know one another at all during their honeymoon phase, but rather that the opportunity to truly see one another will arise after the infatuation fades and True Love may begin.
What is the distinction between "infatuation" and "True love", anyways? Isn't it simply a judgment of the validity of the experience of love? Does a relationship have to run its course past the "six-month" mark, or the "five-seven year mark", before it can be known to be "true love"? Since when is the progress of time a measure of that which exists in the present moment? I thought awareness was the determinant of that.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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adrug
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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The point is, you cannot deny infatuation exists. ALL relationships, whether you want to admit it or not, start with infatuation. Its when the infatuation wears off, that's the real test of the strength of the relationship. I think Veritas and the other people in this thread with more life experience have a little more knowledge about these things than someone as young and inexperienced as yourself.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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It is basically being implied in this thread that, inevitably, the circumstances of life will start to cause one to be obstructed from the experience of love and that its a struggle, and this notion belies everything I understand regarding the nature of awareness and our ability to create ourselves.
I was relating my personal experience in the opening thread. It has nothing to do with implying anything about any inevitability.
This thread was not about romantic relationships. That's been made clear. Your desire to focus on your personal infatuation is your own business but IMO, relates in no way to what I am talking about here.
Let me state again. MY THREAD is not about personal romantic relationships. I have nothing against you starting your own thread.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6969091 - 05/26/07 11:22 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Veritas said: What's being implied in this thread is that the illusions created during infatuation will inevitably be shown for what they are--illusions and fantasies.
Illusions? Yes, I'm sure that illusions anytime will inevitably be revealed as illusions when reality acts out of accordance with that notion of reality's nature.
So, typically, what illusions manifest in this experience of "infatuation", precisely? You refer to them, so clearly you conceptualize them... what are they, typically?
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The day-to-day action of loving your partner, friends, strangers, self, family, etc...has nothing to do with fantasy, and everything to do with reality.
Clearly. What is today, right now, this present moment? Is today fit within this "day-to-day" cycle?
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The obstructions to practicing this loving ARE real, which is not to say that they are insurmountable.
Which obstructions? Love is something that is "praticed"? Love is experienced within the depths of one's being, and, in this moment, we choose to express it. In this moment it may be possible to be more or less consciously aware of this love, yet when one consciously chooses a path through which one consciously decides to be aware of this state of being, love, in the present moment, then one is consciously aware of this love, and the external circumstance of reality naturally works itself out as a result.
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The first step in experiencing reality is to see reality, to the best of our perceptive ablities, and whatever ideals and high standards we may have as to how we prefer reality to be must be seen in contrast to what currently IS.
Clearly. Potential can only be manifested when one acts upon realizing it in accordance with the nature of reality in the present moment. And it all occurs within the present moment, of course. There is no limitation on how much or to which degree we can change or become aware in this present moment. Its as conscious and as instant a decision as one decides it to be. There is no path of becoming out of balance and bringing oneself back within balance if one consciously chooses to not imbalance onself in the first place.
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Balance is not about remaining in balance at all times, but rather noticing when you have lost your balance & gracefully returning.
Perhaps losing balance will occur, yet it is simply a question first as to what one's balance is, and how far one could become imbalanced. How far could the moon should shift away from its orbit with the Earth, do you think? I see no reason to think that one would become imbalanced to the point that one would not consciously perceive their state of being within love, if one is truly immersed within that center in love. Gravity.
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An acceptance of both the moving away AND the returning, without the judgment of "this is not true love because we have failed in our ideals." This is loving between humans, flaws and obstructions and all, and it simply does not look like the fragile fantasies of infatuation.
Yes, clearly. Now, by what mechanism do we identify the course of infatuation as it occurs? Is it distinguisable from true love until the "falling out" begins to occur?
Who could know? Only those two individuals who are intimately immersed within the relationship, I would have to imagine. If they are aware and their relationship is not simply based upon feelings of "imfatuation", then there will be no trouble along the way.
So, ultimately, it either is simply "imfatuation", or it is true love. One has no bearing upon the other.
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However much we may desire to be ONE with our beloved, we are two. Intimacy is wonderful precisely because we are two, because we trust enough to be vulnerable and reveal ourselves, because of the mystery, because of the discovery.
Ahh but there is no true distinction. We are both one and two. This subtle truth even has a gramelin to express it.
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We are able to see the world as described by our beloved, and share their emotions through deep empathy, but we do not share one perception of reality.
Indubiantly. However, when one's perception of reality is centered around the true nature of reality, to the degree at which we can most directly perceive reality, and one's perceptions in regards to one's relationship is mutually shared, then it might incidentally be two perceptions, yet they are mirrored. Its difficult to lose sight of the other when one's existance is mirroring their own.
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This is all for the good, as the contrast and comparison between our POV can reveal the flaws and obstructions present in our own perceptive filters. The learning experience available to us in this kind of deep intimate friendship is invaluable.
Yes, I've personally had a relationship like this and had the subsequent learning experience. What if there is, due to having these learning experiences, no flaws or obstructions in the present moment, in regards to one's perception of the relationship one has with another? What if all of these usual obstructions and limitations have been transcended through such learning experience? What then?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: adrug]
#6969105 - 05/26/07 11:26 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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adrug said: The point is, you cannot deny infatuation exists. ALL relationships, whether you want to admit it or not, start with infatuation. Its when the infatuation wears off, that's the real test of the strength of the relationship. I think Veritas and the other people in this thread with more life experience have a little more knowledge about these things than someone as young and inexperienced as yourself.
Quote:
in·fat·u·a·tion (ĭ-fāch'ōō-ā'shən) Pronunciation Key n. A foolish, unreasoning, or extravagant passion or attraction. See Synonyms at love. An object of extravagant, short-lived passion.
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Romantic love is a form of love that is often regarded as different from mere needs driven by sexual desire or lust, or material and social gain. Romantic love generally involves a mix of emotional and sexual desire, as opposed to Platonic love. There is often, initially, more emphasis on the emotions than on physical pleasure.
Properties of romantic love purported by Western culture include these:
It cannot be easily controlled. It is not overtly (initially at least) predicated on a desire for sex as a physical act. If requited, it may be the basis for lifelong commitment.
Sorry, but I see no reason why a relationship has to start off as unreasonable attraction. It either is infatuation or it isn't, and clearly not all relationships start off as infatuation.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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What then?
Then you're God. Enlightened and perfected.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6969117 - 05/26/07 11:30 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Icelander said: I was relating my personal experience in the opening thread. It has nothing to do with implying anything about any inevitability.
Your opening post was not referred to regarding what I stated was being implied in this thread. There are a lot of other posts in this thread.
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This thread was not about romantic relationships. That's been made clear. Your desire to focus on your personal infatuation is your own business but IMO, relates in no way to what I am talking about here.
I'm not personally infatuated, so I don't know where you are going with that one. This topic naturally lead to where it was by questions I proposed in response to your original topic.
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Let me state again. MY THREAD is not about personal romantic relationships. I have nothing against you starting your own thread.
I'd rather discuss the ideas that you and others presented in this thread, in this thread. Don't start playing "this is my thread" when dissenting viewpoints to what you have proposed are presented - this is P&S.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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spiritualemerg
Stranger
Registered: 03/28/07
Posts: 366
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I suspect that those who have participated in this thread in any fashion, whether by actually participating or simply by reading, will draw different impressions as to what this thread is all about. And that is how it should be.
I enjoyed DrCamacho's contribution the most. All of us long to find deep love in our lives. I wouldn't agree that this is something available only to a handful of the "worthy" (i.e., those who have a spouse/partner) but rather, that this partner is within us. We most commonly find this partner via the process of projection and most often "fall out of love" with those partners when the human being fails to live up to the expectations of the projection.
This form of romantic partnering is a very necessary stage but it can also leave those who don't have a partner feeling distanced from Love. This is not necessary. There are different forms of Love.
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All forms of romantic love are, motivated by this search for union with the source of love. However, it is an unconscious distortion of the ego and a great misfortune that this search is directed outward and that the source is misunderstood as being “a person” outside of oneself. This misunderstanding is due to the ego being divorced from its source, which is its Perfect Model or, “inherent blueprint” - its complementary divine Self. It is in the heart center that the union of the female and male (Yin/Yang) energies takes place.
Source: The Mystic Heart
If you wait for me Then I'll come for you Although I've traveled far I always hold A place for you in my heart
If you think of me If you miss me, once in awhile Then I'll return to you I'll return and fill That space in your heart
Remembering Your touch Your kiss Your warm embrace I'll find my way back to you If you'll be waiting
If you dream of me Like I dream of you In a place that's warm and dark In a place where I can feel The beating of your heart
Remembering Your touch Your kiss Your warm embrace I'll find my way back to you If you'll be waiting
I've longed for you And I have desired To see your face, your smile To be with you Wherever you are
Remembering Your touch Your kiss Your warm embrace I'll find my way back to you If you'll be waiting
Together again It would feel so good to be In your arms Where all my journeys end If you can make a promise If it's one that you can keep I vow to come for you If you wait for me
And say you'll hold A place for me In your heart.
Tracy ChapmanIncidentally, it has not escaped my attention that Tracy Chapman is a black woman. I love what she has managed to capture in this song. See also: The Dark Night Non-duality: YHVH and The Tao Soul Retrieval as Remembered Wholeness The Heart as Mother of the World/The Anahata Chakra
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-------------------- ~ Kindness is cheap. It's unkindness that always demands the highest price. Blogs: Spiritual Emergency | Spiritual Recovery | Voices of Recovery | A Jungian Approach to Psychosis
Edited by spiritualemerg (05/26/07 01:00 PM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6969124 - 05/26/07 11:31 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Then you're God. Enlightened and perfected.
So, basically, levels of consciousness five through seven, as outlined by the Handbook to Higher Consciousness, are simply myths?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6969135 - 05/26/07 11:34 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Let me state again. MY THREAD is not about personal romantic relationships. I have nothing against you starting your own thread.
After reviewing your original post and my first reply, I started expressing my viewpoints on the subject regarding love and you told me that my love as I expressed it in response to your love was not the topic for discussion, as it was conditional. I started making the case for why romantic love is unconditional. If you are unsatisfied with the resultant course of discussion, then do not make assertions regarding the nature of an idea. Ideas are open for discussion in this forum.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Don't start playing "this is my thread" when dissenting viewpoints to what you have proposed are presented - this is P&S.
Don't put words into my mouth. I never said this is my thread. In stead I stated what the intention of my making this (my)thread was about. Get it?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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adrug
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Smirks at the end of your posts don't lend much credence to your arguments either.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6969164 - 05/26/07 11:40 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes I get it. You were implying that my posting does not pertain to this thread. I replied once more and specifically outlined how it does. My statement regarding "your thread" was implying that you can't decide after the fact to draw a line through my responses and state that it belongs in another thread.
I have to go to work now. Oh well, one more toke...
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: adrug]
#6969173 - 05/26/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
adrug said: Smirks at the end of your posts don't lend much credence to your arguments either.
Posts such as these have no bearing to the discussion of ideas presented, and are best kept in private messages or in OTD. Please do not obstruct the discussion of ideas in such a manner. You may decide to not actually respond to the ideas presented in counterpoint to your own, of course, but to comment on my emoticon usage is really just unnecessary.
Shall I restore my title "The purveyor of emoticons" once more?
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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adrug
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Its just very hard to take you seriously when everything ends in a smirk. That's all I'm saying. Don't take it personally now.
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backfromthedead
Activated
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 3,592
Last seen: 15 years, 7 months
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: adrug]
#6969217 - 05/26/07 11:50 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've found that the higher you climb the more you smirk.
--------------------
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: adrug]
#6969231 - 05/26/07 11:52 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I haven't, why would you assume that you would need to state that? Feel free to answer that in private messages if you find it necessary to do so.
-------------------- If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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adrug
Registered: 02/04/03
Posts: 15,800
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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no flaws or obstructions in the present moment, in regards to one's perception of the relationship one has with another?
This is what I referred to. To have absolutely no flaws or obstructions (which I doubt Ken would have ever claimed to) would be perfection.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
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Quote:
backfromthedead said: I've found that the higher you climb the more you smirk.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Read "The Alchemy of Love and Lust," and talk to me after you've spent 6 months in regular, in-person interaction with your beloved.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6969564 - 05/26/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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It's a fucking smirk fest.
So much for the loving heart topic.:(
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/26/07 01:15 PM)
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6969722 - 05/26/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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On-topic:
It seems to me that our sense of both the availability of love and our capacity for loving what is are related to our current state of either acceptance/surrender or neurotic rejection of reality.
When I am closer to my intention of loving what is, nearly everything and everyone seem beautiful and loveable.
When I am farther from this intention, my petty judgments convince me that reality is less wonderful.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Veritas]
#6969842 - 05/26/07 02:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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agree
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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mushbaby
woodswalker
Registered: 09/30/06
Posts: 2,645
Loc: in my own lil world
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Re: This loving heart. [Re: Icelander]
#6972017 - 05/27/07 12:29 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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First of all, I LOVE TRACY CHAPMAN!! Use to have a bunch of her music.
Now: LOVE
There is no difficulty that enough love will not conquer; LOVE no disease that enough love will not heal; LOVE No door that enough love will not open; LOVE No gulf that enough love will not bridge; LOVE No wall that enough love will not throw down; LOVE No sin that enough love will not redeem.
LOVE
It makes no difference how deeply seated may be the trouble, LOVE How hopeless the outlook, LOVE How muddled the tangle, LOVE How great the mistake; LOVE A sufficient realization of love will dissolve it all. LOVE If only you could love enough you would be the happiest and most powerful being in the world.
Author: Emmet Fox
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