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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4758143 -

my hardest shroom trip ever was on half an eighth of some small shrooms. i had just eaten a big ass bowl of spaghetti.
the shrooms were small, so i just broke them into pieces, balled the tissue up and swallowed them like pills (idunno about u guys but the taste of shrooms makes me gag.. it usually takes me 20-30 min to eat an 8th). i used gatorade to wash them down, and it hit me in 10-15 minutes.
level 5 trip, witht he confusion ego loss and all.
kinf of similar to ur fast acting lemon juice.

iono just my 2 sense.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4758150 -

I'm back from my experiment.

First result: 1g with ascorbic acid was not stronger than 1g, in my experience.

I'm coming down now so I'll report back later with more details.

I had a wonderful trip though  :smile:

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Lysergic_Milkman]
    #4758475 -

If the acidity helps break down/digest the shrooms

It doesn't. I had an acid reflux condition and was given something that reduced/destroyed all the acid in my stomach. I asked whether this would affect my digestion and the doctor said the acid has nothing whatsoever to do with digestion. It's enzymes that digest your food.

My take is that the "Lemon juice" is pure placebo.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Alex213]
    #4758669 -

Yes, enzymes digest the food, but these enzymes can function only in a highly acidic environment. That's why we have a strong acid in our stomach.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: Alex213]
    #4758675 -

Ill give this a go on my next flush but here is what i can come up w/ on whats happening here. Whenever you eat/take any drug on an empty stomach you will trip harder and it will come on faster. My guess is that the lemon juice is extracting the psilocin into liquid form (obviously going to digest quicker) therefore hit you even quicker than in solid form. And as far as more potent i haven't done any research on this but Ive always heard Vitamin C increases your trip, so maby thats the reason for seemingly increased potency

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: ixitwistedixi]
    #4758734 -

Annom, try 1g with cranberry juice in a few days. I dont know why everyone is taking lemon juice or vitamin C. If you read the other bioflavinoid post on the forum you would know that not all citrus contains bioflavinoids, and not all of what contains bioflavinoids have a high enough amount to do anything IE orange juice.

Were talking about a disabling of enzymes that break down psilocin, not simply assisting the existing enzyme's or aiding the digesting process. You wont get a 2X-5X potentation due to simply aiding your digestive system, its obviously a case of inhibiting an enzyme that would otherwise metabolize what you ingest.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [Re: yousuck]
    #4758824 -

Quote:
Were talking about a disabling of enzymes that break down psilocin


We got two going theories: the bioflavonoid hypothesis and the acidity hypothesis. I myself had an acid without additives work for me, it even rammed as hard as it did in any trial described.

Quote:
You wont get a 2X-5X potentation due to simply aiding your digestive system, its obviously a case of inhibiting an enzyme that would otherwise metabolize what you ingest.


An intravenous injection of a few mg of Psilocybin can rock your world, which means that if the digestive system can be given a boost, 2-5x potentiation is perfectly possible and still not close to IV injection.

And maybe your holy grail enzyme (which might indeed exist) is blocked by carboxylic acidity. We should try anything helpful but the focus lies on the Cranberry, Lemon & Lime juices of the initial post.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4758854 -

Quote:
First result: 1g with ascorbic acid was not stronger than 1g, in my experience.
I'm coming down now so I'll report back later with more details.
I had a wonderful trip though



Great you had a wonderful trip!!
But not so great it diodnt work out for you.
Chill out after a day wellspent.. But THEN we want all the details! :evil:


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Asante]
    #4759117 -

I believe that these experiences are not related to vitamin C or acids of any kinds. I am starting to believe that psilocybin/psilocin in liquid form is what is causing this. If you go to erowid and you read experiences with tea, most will say that they are well into the trip after 20 minutes. I have personally drank tea containing mushrooms, tea leaves, and water and have been tripping within 15 minutes.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Annom]
    #4759180 -

Annom said:
Yes, I was already planning to repeat your experiment. I have 250mg vit C pills. I will take 1g cubes.


How did you take the mushrooms? With just the vitamin C, or did you use lemon juice as well? Did you grind the mushrooms up?

I highly doubt this has anything to do with vitamin C. Many people take vitamin C before a trip, but I've never heard of anyone claiming it to be twice as strong or more than usual. Some people claim vitamin C does something, and some people claim it does nothing. I don't think anyone has claimed vitamin C to produce a drastic change.

I think the vitamin C thing is just placebo.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4759228 -

Heres my two cents....

Okay I dont have a whole lot of experience with mushrooms (5 times at doses ranging from .75- 1.5 grams, had a trobuled experience with ayahuasca so I have been wading gently into mushrooms for the past 8 months or so).

Anyway on the last time I tripped I had recently purchased a coffee grinder and had heard that grinding the mush results in a quicker come on.....what an understatement. I ended up pretty much having effects that the poster of this topic experienced at just 1.5 grams.

Trying to remeber what I had to drink to wash down the powder with...I`m near positive it was a citrus flavored vitamin water. Might this explain my effects?

So I`m guessing people dont just have those kind of effects off simply grinding them? Is it indeed the acidity?

I`m really interested in this and someday soon will experiment with lemon juice...on my next trip sometime this month.


--------------------
'divine moments of truth, total and utter cosmic stuff...'
'be here now... i love everybody'

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Chemical_Bliss]
    #4759332 -

The original poster of this topic said he ground up mushrooms and used a liquid to extract the psilocybin from the mushrooms. From this and what I have read I can use the evidence to say the following.

Here is my two cents: Since psilocybin isn't extracted very efficiently using water, and is commonly extracted using acetic acid ( vinegar) link the ascorbic acid (Vit C) helps with extraction proccess.

There is no proof or reason that ascorbic acid would potentiate the effects of psilocybin.

I believe the real reason and only reason for potentiated effects are from faster absorbant rates because the psilocybin is now in liquid form. Much faster into the blood stream.

Vitamin C is not a potentiator;all that is happening is the body is recieving psilocybin/psilocin at a faster rate causing a trip which is more intense and of less duration.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4759342 -

Ok, I have been doing a lot thinking about this. I appreciate all the people who are contributing to this little experiment. I see a lot of people mentioning that this is maybe a placebo effect. It is my opinion that over the course of decades and over a hundred trips, I have become a very good judge of the strength of different doses, done a variety of different ways. Not to say that placebos dont have an effect on me, but I do believe it is very minimal. I have always been able to quantify the level of my trip, and when compared with dosing amounts and methods over time, gives me a decent overview of such. I realize that my trips are not your trips etc, etc. Over the course of time, I have noticed a very definable trend in my own experiences. Drinking in a milkshake was the weakest way I ever found to do them. Followed in strength by eating dry shrooms. Next would be eating fresh shrooms. Next would be water and soda mixes. After that would be orange juice and apple juice. Even stronger still in my experience is making shroom tea. The only methods I have found stronger than tea is grapefruit juice, cranberry, and then lemon/lime. This is all just from my personal experiences. I can't post all my trip journals lol, but needless to say I have done personal research for years. Every single person I know personally who has tried cranberry juice has had the same experience as I, and only do them that way now. They are all waiting for my next pick to try lemon/lime, and I will be able to give you their opinions of that at a later time.

After reading all the posts a few times, and doing some research, I have come up with my current working theory on what is going on lol. I am starting to think that a combination of factors are contributing to the effects. Almost all people can agree that powdered shrooms in a liquid solution will have increased effects from just that. So that contributes. Most people will also agree that you can extract psylocybin/psylocin from mushrooms with an acidic solution. So that process is begun as soon as you combine ingredients, instead of when the eaten shrooms would hit your stomach. This should mean that you have more of the active chemicals available for absorbtion while it is in your stomach. Throw in that fruit juices, specifically citrus fruits, are full of basic sugars, which are easily absorbed into the bloodstream. And then you can throw in the bioflavinoid factor. Certain enzymes are affected which allow for a greater 'first pass' absorption of the actve chemicals. So basically, you get the benefit of the shrooms being in a liquid solution, that is full of simple sugars, and very acidic which breaks down the chemicals into the solution giving you more actives available. Once this mixture hits your stomach, the bioflavinoid factor allows you to absorb more of the actives, which there are more of now since it is in acidic solution, and since the solution is also heavy with simple sugars, you are able to absorb everything as fast as possible. More actives in solution(due to extraction beginning in acidic solution) + ability to absorb more(bioflavinoid) + very easily absorbed liquid(mostly sugars)= new experience:)

That's just my thoughts atm. I would like to ask that anyone who continues the experiment, be as subjective as possible and do your best to eliminate the placebo effect. This also includes the opposite of the placebo effect, which would be being sure it won't work before you try it. Skepticism is to be expected, but I realize as much as most of you, that most of the best ideas come from the community. I know I wouldnt be able to grow my own if it wasnt for the cultivation forums here lol. Just try to be impartial and open minded.


--------------------
If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body?

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4759344 -

If vitamin C is what is causing this, than you should be able to eat your mushrooms whole, and eat a vitamin C capsul disolved in water. If the effects aren't potentiated, vitamin C is out.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4759418 -

Quote:
There is no proof or reason that ascorbic acid would potentiate the effects of psilocybin.


The reason for the experiment was to test the hypothesis that acidity and acidity alone could cause such a potentiation. The outcome was a 5x increase in potency. There's a reason and proof.

Quote:
I believe the real reason and only reason for potentiated effects are from faster absorbant rates because the psilocybin is now in liquid form.


Nope: I almost always use my mushrooms as tea (already in liquid form) and this was five times stronger as every single time i took this amount. The difference? pH 2 instead of 7.

Quote:
Vitamin C is not a potentiator;all that is happening is the body is recieving psilocybin/psilocin at a faster rate causing a trip which is more intense and of less duration.


If something causes an intensification of the trip it is in fact a potentiator. If something enhances the bioavailability it is a potentiator, whether its a simple fruit acid or a beta-carboline.

Let's not theorize without taking the observations into the equasion.


--------------------
Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Asante]
    #4759528 -

Wiccan_Seeker:

I am sorry, I have used the wrong word.

What I meant to say is that Vitamin C is not a catalyst.  Vitamin C is being used as an extraction tool and nothing more.  There is a big difference.  As I said above we could prove that vitamin C is not a catalyst by eating your mushrooms whole, and drink a vitamin C capsule disolved in water in between each bite of mushrooms.  If the effects aren't potentiated, vitamin C not a catalyst, but an extraction tool.

"The reason for the experiment was to test the hypothesis that acidity and acidity alone could cause such a potentiation. The outcome was a 5x increase in potency. There's a reason and proof."

There is no proof or reason in your experiment without further results. I am working with the facts, nothing more. When Annom repeated your experiment his results were completely different. Reading your posts from the beggining you sounded like you were very excited which makes me think placebo has effected your testing. I have experienced placebo's effects before and was suprised at the power they have! :lol: I do trust you in that you have had a lot of experience with the dose you took, but I also think placebo had its effects as well.


I am not trying to sound like a dick. I am all for this experiment and  am just trying to get the best facts to use for a conclusion of this.

Much love  :heart:

Edited by Rebirtha (10/05/05 03:10 PM)

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4759699 -

Evan,
Go back a few postings to my last post about a possible theory (or parts thereof) that mentions liquid digestion as a possible factor in such quick acting effects of Psilocin.

Teas might not be the best option for liquid form though as Psilocin is not stable and quickly breaks down (mostly by heat but also by chemical reaction).

Psilocin is especially unstable in a alkali mix, water is pH 7.0, with baking soda added it can go as high as 8.3 (but why would you drink a base drink). So the more acidic (lower pH) the solution the longer the psilocin might remain in a liquid solution, thus more quantity to enter your system.

A simple test of 2 grams in a shot glass of water (pH 7)and one with cranberry juice (pH 3.5) and test it out on 2 "blind" subjects, record the results. Might want to even mix the 4 grams thoroughly to try and even the "effect" for both test.

But mind you I still think it might shorten duration, the flame that burns twice as bright, burns half as long.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: cornoir]
    #4759736 -

Crazy thought as a way of skipping ahead to expand our knowledge in this area.

What about bypassing the stomach acids altogether?

I remember a test with DMSO (Dimethyl Sulfoxide) and lemon juice. mix lemon juice and DMSO and touch it with your fingertip, within a minute you should taste lemon.

So if one was to mix a 1 gram dose mixed with enough lemon juice to make it slightly soggy then mix in a little DMSO, wait 5 seconds and touch it, theoretically it should affect you harder than say using just plain water to make the shroom paste. Theoretically.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: Rebirtha]
    #4759842 -

Evan said:
Reading your posts from the beggining you sounded like you were very excited which makes me think placebo has effected your testing.


Can you really see a placebo effect causing something to be 4 or 5 times as strong though? That sounds pretty far fetched for placebo.

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Re: I may have discovered something... [now a community experiment - please contribute] [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #4760186 -

Don't you think that it is interesting that Annom had a views about how "wishful thinking, confirmation bias, placebo effect, selective thinking and subjective validation." and then repeated Wiccan_Seekers experiment and had no effects while Wiccan_Seeker who was excited about it had the 4 to 5 time effect? Also Wiccan_Seeker took .25 grams of mushrooms and said it felt like 1 gram. How does he know it didn't feel like .6 grams of mushrooms or .7? If it was .75 Then its only 3 imes the potency. He seemed pretty excited throughout his trip diary. Tripping while being excited could easily intensify the trip, especially if you feel you are part of a revolutionary process. Not very scientific at all.

The real deal is you can't 100% say that it FEELS like 4 to 5 times stronger, especially if you are dealing with small doses and with as many factors as we are dealing with.

I do think that Wiccan_Seeker had a more than average experience. I'm sure that extracting psilocybin with an acid such as the ones found in lemon juice, and taking it with a liquid on an empty stomach would intensify a trip. You cannot state as a fact though that it was 5 times stronger. We are only human we cannot judge this to that accuracy.

Edited by Rebirtha (10/05/05 06:45 PM)

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Psychedelic Experience
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