Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Gomp]
    #4628874 -

""but question remains: where did it all come from""

God made Man in '*his' own image.. Christianity said.. 

it all came from, it all..
forget about linear time, for a moment..
and think of time, as ever dividable points..

ah.. he he screw it! h?h?
It all is a big house, whereas the house, is a room in it self..
(Not only fractals, no, no! )  :laugh:


*Usage Problem. Used to refer to a person whose gender is unspecified or unknown: ?He who desires but acts not, breeds pestilence? (William Blake).




"God made the person, in his image, and God is not a person, but them all.."
-Unknown :P


(God = All in All) :crazy2:

I am with God, Through God, as God!
I am with Love, Through Love, as Love!
I am with me, Through me, as Me!
I am!


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Gomp]
    #4628882 -

The shortest distance between two points, is not a straight line, but none..

one point, IS the other.. it is just a matter of perceptions...
...


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4628892 -

I just see it as all being rather meaningless, and speculation about it especially so.

As we learn more and science continues to advance, the concept of God (for simplicity's sake I'll keep this monotheistic) gets shoved further away from everyday reality. Ages ago it was obvious that rain meant God was favoring you and was directly responsible for giving you a good crop. If thunder struck, He's smiting you.

Now we can see enough scientific reasons for everything that instead of making rain He might set in motion large weather systems in the middle of the ocean that eventually make landfall and lead to rain.

Okay, rain and weather is kind of a bad example here, since that's chaotic enough that we still can't understand very far out. Let's use the more subject-appropriate creation ideas. Originally, God created Earth, threw some stars up in the sky, put some people on the ground and called it good. Now we have enough science that, unless you want to be considered a crazy extremist, you pretty much have to believe what we've learned from advancements in science: The universe was created billions of years ago in a big bang (probably, still some debate on the specifics), eventually cooling into galaxies, and bits of those forming stars, solar systems, planets. If a God started anything, he either did it a long time ago or thought it'd be fun to screw with our minds and make lots of evidence towards that.

Similar development with creation of life. In the past (and still surprisingly common today), the idea was that God created all life as we see it. Simple. These days science can pretty clearly show a genetic lineage from all modern life back to very, very primitive, single-celled lifeforms. Again, if God made us, it was either a plan set in motion billions of years ago or made to look as if it was.

And just like it has always been, when there's a lack of answers otherwise, the answer gets defined as "God did it." A lot of people need the assurance of a higher power, and will latch on to anything unknown as proof that such a being exists.

But as I said in the beginning of this post, it really becomes meaningless when you get deep enough. We have pretty solid evidence that the universe came about, seemingly from nothing, billions of years ago. It's amazing, and a testament to how far we've come that we could even figure that much out. Figuring out what came before that, if anything, may well be impossible. Scientifically speaking, if there was a singularity at the beginning (may or may not have been the case), all physical laws break down and delving deeper into the past would be physically impossible. No matter how far we go, there will always be something that we don't know, and forever God will live in that place.

And what of God's origins? It's a classic argument: If God created everything, who created God? I see three possible counters to this:

1) God was created by another God, or is a being within another universe - That takes us right back where we started, just up one level.

2) God created Himself - And how did he do that? If things as amazing as gods can spontaneously come into existence, why not a universe?

3) God has always existed, or God lives outside of / created the concept of time - Hmm, can't think of a good argument against this one right now. I'll give that as an unknown that He can hide in.

And same for the rules. Who made the rules that God functions by? It's pretty much the same points.

I make no claims of such a being NOT existing, it's just that it's so easy to claim either way that I don't see how anyone can be so sure of themselves one way or another, and logic says that if there's no reason to believe something exists, it probably doesn't.

Either a universe or a God came into being without prior cause. I've got pretty solid evidence that the universe exists, so why add another step?


And yes, pointless as these conversations tend to be, they can be fun and interesting once in a while.  :wink:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: GulGen]
    #4628923 -

Well its very simple, this univers is gods dream, and each of is a point of view in this dream, but since god is god, he`s dream is so powerfull that each of us is one of his points of view in that dream and he can have as many as there are beings, and - as being god - he`s dream summons to creation whole worlds.

When was universe created? When god started to sleep. When he awakens? When we smoke some DMT  :smile:


ps.  yeah, interesting stuff GulGen you are saying, must think more about it :smile:


--------------------
Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.
- Carl Gustav Jung

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4629332 -

"Ok Trendal, but who set the rules, made appearing sub particles out of nowwhere possible? Or rather, not who, but how these rules have been set, by accident?"

i don't know if you've ever taken a general chemistrey class, but if you have and are reasonably intuitive, you'd probably realize that atoms interact the way that they do because it just WORKS. The electrons fill up their orbitals the way that they do because there is no other way. It's like 2+2=4. It works and couldn't be any other way.

the "physical" universe operates soley on priciples of ratios that can be expressed through mathematics. Math is`the only "design", and instead of asking why or how it works, you should be asking why it WOULDN'T work. it just does and so it just IS.

"Who made it so that 2+2=4?" is a question that searches for a valid answer, but the person asking is searching through invalid questions.

why do people constantly make this separation between science and religion? there is no true separation except the one between scientific reason and religious dogma.

science cannot disprove god, it can only try to understand god in a way that was never possible before. But it can never invalidate spiritual experiance. in fact, recent experiments regarding EEG scans and meditation actually PROVE spiritual experiance in a scientifically understandable way.

also, the testing of Bell's Theorem proved that there IS no true objective reality. The world is truly a coexistance of all possible probabilities that exist at once. Thus the particle-wave duality problem isn't even a problem any more, and cannot be thought of in terms of classical physics.

I don't know a whole lot about quantum physics, but i do know that the nature of reality must be contemplated as that of a quantum reality. Classical physics has long been dead.


--------------------

http://www.myspace.com/sarasotafnb
http://www.wcwtampa.com

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Psiledehysp]
    #4629345 -

Yeah, so we're god, and stuff.


--------------------
"A Bad Day for Pants"

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4629362 -

Diploid said:
but question remains: where did it all come from

It may be that the universe has always existed and never didn't exist, so it was not created.


That's the precise argument that caused me to become agnostic. Because if time has always existed, then who can say that something else hasn't always existed? Perhaps everything has always existed, in a state of non-duality...


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4629489 -

Ravus said:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Psiledehysp said:
Atoms... like Lego, fit together, things can be made of it, like paper, like water, like us... there are rules, possible states, interactions; Where do atoms come from? We don't know... (do we?) But how could atoms have not been designed, could atoms come to existence spontaneously? By accident? From what and why? Well all these questions are only to oppose the main one: not designed???


don't start this, you are just throwing bullets in fire, your or anybody else will NEVER change even the smalles opinion anyone has on this forum. On such large questions like this, opinions DO NOT change on shroomery. Arguments are useless both ways on such questions.
Those who have proof of random evolution will not change minds of those who believe in creation, and those who have proof of creation will not change minds of those who believe in evolution.
As much as people think they are in control, they can not chose their beliefs. they are determined, by their entire lives, upbringing, personality etc.


There is no free will.  :thumbup:


Our will cannot be different from God's will since our
will can only be an expression of his. Just as in genetics,
no son can express a gene that they do not have, where is it
that you think these genes are passed from?

Does the phrase "Man created in God's image" ring a bell to any of you?


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4631549 -

Quote:
Does the phrase "Man created in God's image" ring a bell to any of you?


sure does. however "God(s) created in Man's image" rings louder and more true.


--------------------
http://flashpedia.net/linesuperfollow.swf

http://www.alltooflat.com/pranks/cube/

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4631564 -

I think that God was masturbating while looking at angel porn, and suddenly blew his load all over the universe without getting a kleenex first to contain it. It spread over to all the planets, and some the sperm actually fertilized and created miniature Gods in; and here we are.

I don't know why God would have two X chromosomes though; he must've taken one from my rib.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4631631 -

I don't know why God would have two X chromosomes though

:rotfl:  !


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4632175 -

ok, here goes (sorry it looks like first post i had to make a new account) anyway

this is not truth by any means, merely my perception of it all, which to me is almost as good as truth

atoms themselves (as we have discerned thus far) are merely energy, energy slowed to a stand still, but energy nontheless, frozen light if you will is what makes up energy. Now, when we look at how particles change state, i will use a large scale example, take water for example. If you take energy away from it, it changes states, it becomes a solid. The same is obviously true for the opposite, if you heat it it becomes a liquid then a gas. Now one can choose to leave it there, or break it down further (subatomic particles). Say that we do break H20 into h h and 0, now i am going to leave the hydrogen out of this just for simplicities sake and for clarity's sake. Take you oxygen atom, once it is split up it becomes a grouping of quarks and other such subatomic particles (of which i dont know the names for, but this is mostly theory because we can't see it anywho). Say you take one of those incredibly small subatomic particles and you heat it, heat it until it basically explodes, not explodes, but is transformed into soeley energy. What have you done, have you broken up the particle or have you merely changed its state of being.

Here comes into play the multiple dimensions some people believe exists (me being one of them). If you look at the virtual particles ( believe they are called, the ones that appear[with an particle and antiparticle at the same time and destroy each other in as quick a time] even in a vacume where no other particles are present. Where do those particles come from, obviously there is not a wealth of energy in the vaccume, nor is there very little. These particles seem to manifest randomly. I percieve this as something transdimensional. From some of the things i have experienced, i see reality as something not percieviable on this energy level, we must experience it with a form of consciousness that is higher in vibrational frequency (many people speak of this in reference to astral projection and the astral/etheric bodies)

If you look at it openly, perhaps these other dimensions are having effects on our own, they are actually causing energy fluxuations, which in turn cause physical manifestations in our own dimension.

From my pov this is where the physical came from, the consciousness in another dimension worked on its creation, manifesting it and using energy flow to create all that is to our knowledge, the laws, particles, you and i.


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4632842 -

Ravus said:
I think that God was masturbating while looking at angel porn, and suddenly blew his load all over the universe without getting a kleenex first to contain it. It spread over to all the planets, and some the sperm actually fertilized and created miniature Gods in; and here we are.

I don't know why God would have two X chromosomes though; he must've taken one from my rib.


I never though of it that way!  :mushroom2:  :crazy2: now my theory is complete!  :grin:


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4633064 -

Ravus said:
I think that God was masturbating while looking at angel porn, and suddenly blew his load all over the universe without getting a kleenex first to contain it. It spread over to all the planets, and some the sperm actually fertilized and created miniature Gods in; and here we are.

I don't know why God would have two X chromosomes though; he must've taken one from my rib.


You can cut an orange many ways but it still is orange.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Edited by Delusion_of_Self (09/08/05 09:12 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4634080 -

Ravus said:
I think that God was masturbating while looking at angel porn, and suddenly blew his load all over the universe without getting a kleenex first to contain it. It spread over to all the planets, and some the sperm actually fertilized and created miniature Gods in; and here we are.

I don't know why God would have two X chromosomes though; he must've taken one from my rib.


I wouldn't focus in the type of chromosome but the fact that they are two. And yes! From One rib!

you speak so much truth without even knowing it...


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4634095 -

The Bible is ridiculous beyond all measure.

I read a Native American creation story today, where the first man made the first woman conceive by slapping her with a fish and telling her to multiply. She had a child one week later, and continued having children every week until the land filled up with children. The children then reproduced (how come ancient spiritual creation theories always relate creation to incest? :wink:) but the land became so filled with humans it changed so that women wouldn't have children more than once a year.

The fish reminded me of the rib story.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Ravus]
    #4634133 -

Ravus said:
The Bible is ridiculous beyond all measure.

I read a Native American creation story today, where the first man made the first woman conceive by slapping her with a fish and telling her to multiply. She had a child one week later, and continued having children every week until the land filled up with children. The children then reproduced (how come ancient spiritual creation theories always relate creation to incest? :wink:) but the land became so filled with humans it changed so that women wouldn't have children more than once a year.

Yes, but can't you see you base your story on multiplication, as creation comes into being by two. Duality. You are ignoring the real origin. I don't mean I have grasped it but I aim for it, no pretense. We are continually working on ourselves.

The fish reminded me of the rib story.

I don't know...I guess some people get it that way and they multiply. hahahaha!

I still think there are many paths but one way, Christ.




--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4634141 -

I still think there are many paths but one way, Christ.

What about those poor tribes of people living in isolation in the Amazon who never heard of Christ. According to the bible, they can't enter heaven.

Did God fuck up here or is there some loophole they can use? :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Diploid]
    #4634152 -

Don't be silly! I'm not talking about Jesus Christ but Christ. Even though it is the same consciousness, I am not referring to his body. Christ is meant as a title.

EDIT: forgot tu use the word 'same'


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Edited by Delusion_of_Self (09/08/05 05:19 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: How could atoms have not been designed? [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #4634158 -

Christ is in every part of creation.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* I have philosophical evidence for the existence of God!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 Anonymous 13,380 109 02/13/04 11:28 PM
by SpecialEd
* *cough* EXISTENCE *hack*
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )		 buttonion 22,701 173 03/19/04 12:03 AM
by Frog
* misCONCEPTions involving science; energy doesn't exist
( 1 2 3 all )		 kaiowas 3,709 41 01/14/04 02:34 PM
by kaiowas
* the recycling of atoms mariasabina 1,691 9 03/23/04 02:14 PM
by trendal
* objective reality does not exist
( 1 2 all )		 monoamine 6,633 34 11/01/02 08:55 AM
by Newbie2000
* The GOD particle Scarfmeister 1,829 12 08/21/04 08:54 PM
by trendal
* FOr loser outkast....FOUNDERS OF ATOMISM BleedingSickness 1,665 9 10/04/02 08:40 AM
by Anonymous
* energy doesn't exist
( 1 2 all )		 kaiowas 2,197 21 07/19/04 09:10 PM
by trendal

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
4,284 topic views. 1 members, 55 guests and 15 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.007 seconds on 16 queries.