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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4309334 -

Good and evil are relative judgments. You can't have good without evil, you can't have evil without good, where exactly do you draw the line between them, etc.

And just to show that the Christian conception of God is a fairly limited one... Any "infinite being" would have absolutely no beginning or end in either time or space. He/She/It would be everywhere at all times. His/Her/Its forms would be infinite, and therefore he/she/it would have no "real" image, "real" identity, "real" title, etc. He/She/It would be experiencing everything there is to experience at all times. And, since he/she/it would be infinite, and literally "all there is," there would be no one but himself/herself/itself to experience. And most importantly: He/She/It couldn't "judge" any "individual," because he/she/it would BE all "individuals," experiencing himself/herself/itself in an infinite number of ways, through an infinite number of subjects.

Sounds like a tall order, but hey, this is an infinite being we're talking about, right?

So yea, next time you get the chance... Take a good look at what's going on all around you.  :smile:

Edited by primal (06/18/05 12:03 AM)

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: primal]
    #4309349 -

In reality I think of good and evil as relative concepts that are completely abstract and culture-centric. I do not subscribe to the traditional Christian concept of good and evil. In objective reality neither exist...only human judgement have created these concepts as a survival mechanism.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4309475 -

Hey H., read this book when you get a chance. It might change your understanding of evil - it did for me. I used to subscribe to the 'Privatio Bonum' theory taught to me in seminary - that evil was the mere absence of good[ness]. I never considered the scriptural personifications of evil as the devil [d'evil] as anything but mythological overlay. Until I read this book, Sybil was the scariest book I ever read. After many years this remains the scariest!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4309479 -

icelander: "everlasting is not omnipresent keep trying"

Jehovah-Shammah "the lord is present" (omnipresent)
Jehovah-Hoseenu "the lord our maker"
Jehovah-Elohim "the eternal creator"

what more do you need?
Makom ? literally "the place", meaning "The Omnipresent"; see Tzimtzum.

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In Jewish Mysticism, Tzimtzum (צמצום "contraction" or "constriction" in Hebrew) refers to the notion in the Kabbalistic theory of creation that God "contracted" his infinite essence in order to allow for a "conceptual space" in which a finite, independent world could exist. This contraction is known as the tzimtzum. The function of the tzimtzum was "to conceal from created beings the activating force within them, enabling them to exist as tangible entities, instead of being utterly nullified within their source" [1] (http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive2.asp?AID=7990). The tzimtzum produced the required "vacated space" (chalal חלל, chalal panui חלל פנוי), devoid of direct awareness of God's presence.

In Rabbinic literature, God is often referred to as "Ha-Makom" (המקום lit. "the place", "the omnipresent") as the tzimtzum resulted in the conceptual "space" in which the physical universe and free will can exist. Further, olam - the Hebrew word for "world" or universe - is derived from the root word עלם meaning "concealment". This etymology is complementary with the concept of tzimtzum, in that the physical universe conceals the spiritual nature of creation.

It is understood that the concept of tzimtzum contains a built-in paradox, requiring that God be simultaneously transcendental and immanent.

On the one hand, if the "Infinite" did not restrict itself, then nothing could exist - everything would be overwhelmed by God's totality. Thus existence requires God's transcendence, as above.
On the other hand, God continuously maintains the existence of, and is thus not absent from, the created universe. "The Divine life-force which brings all creatures into existence must constantly be present within them... were this life-force to forsake any created being for even one brief moment, it would revert to a state of utter nothingness, as before the creation..." [2] (http://www.chabad.org/library/archive/LibraryArchive2.asp?AID=7988). Thus the biblical teachings: "You have made the heaven... the earth and all that is on it... and You give life to them all" (Nehemiah 9:6 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt35b09.htm)); "All the earth is filled with God's Glory" (Numbers 14:21 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0414.htm)); "God's Glory fills the world" (Isaiah 6:3 (http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1006.htm)). Creation therefore requires God's immanence.
In a well known articulation, Rabbi Nachman of Breslav discusses the inherent paradox as follows: "Only in the future will it be possible to understand the Tzimtzum that brought the 'Empty Space' into being, for we have to say of it two contradictory things... (1) the Empty Space came about through the Tzimtzum, where, as it were, He 'limited' His Godliness and contracted it from there, and it is as though in that place there is no Godliness... (2) the absolute truth is that Godliness must nevertheless be present there, for certainly nothing can exist without His giving it life." (Likkutei Moharan I, 64:1 (http://www.breslov.com/international/likutei_mohoron/lm32.html))

The paradox is deepened in that the tzimtzum results in a simultaneous perception of the world being imperfect despite God's presence being everywhere. As a result, most Kabbalists see the tzimtzum as a cosmic illusion. Furthermore, since man is an Olam Katan, a "world in miniature", this same process of tzimtzum is said to be replicated within each person.





what else?


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4309490 -

I may give it a look. It looks interesting.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: uriahchase]
    #4309492 -

oldwoodspectre: The idea of universal god as some abstract concept is NOT a biblical concept. Bible describes a god as just another limited creature that makes mistakes, does not know everything and is not omnipotent.

where did you pull this out of? have u ever ead the bible?


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: uriahchase]
    #4309503 -

enough info to agree that the bible does refer to God as always present?

if i dug deeper into the hebrew scripters im sure i'd have alot more to post.

love ya,
uriah(light of jahova)


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: uriahchase]
    #4309583 -

"What else?" - The Qlippoth, whence evil.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4309746 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I may give it a look. It looks interesting.


So you gave it that look, and found it to be interesting, eh? :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4309834 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
Hey H., read this book when you get a chance. It might change your understanding of evil - it did for me. I used to subscribe to the 'Privatio Bonum' theory taught to me in seminary - that evil was the mere absence of good[ness]. I never considered the scriptural personifications of evil as the devil [d'evil] as anything but mythological overlay.  Until I read this book, Sybil was the scariest book I ever read. After many years this remains the scariest!


So what you're saying is you believe the devil is real? So you believe also in demons and such? Very curious, have you had any experiences with these entities outside of reading this book? :mushroom2:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: Icelander]
    #4310504 -

My 'take' on evil has changed, which is a good thing since my understanding had not come up to speed with my apprehension of GOD. In a universe that may be psychoid in nature, originating from Eternal Ideas in the Divine Mind, how could I continue to hold an undeveloped, simplistic version of evil?

I HAVE experienced things such as the exact words and behaviors aimed at me from acting out people several states apart. Reminded me of the beggar in the subway in the film 'The Exorcist' whose words come through the possessed child later on. I once found one of those Chick publication booklets (http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp) under my windshield, and while reading it in a very crowded bar, I began to laugh at the cartoon devil in the booklet. At that very moment a deeper voice in the crowd, and probably just a part of someone else's conversation, but audibly deeper and louder, synchronistically responed to my laughter in a commanding tone: "Don't you laugh at me!" Well, you would've had to be in my shoes for that moment of synchronicity because I felt it in my gut and it was immediately insettling. I am not an emotional person and this was very uncharacteristic.

I have met people on the internet who were so disturbed that they seemed to surpass psychiatric criteria in my mind just through the power that their words had on me through a monitor. This is all extremely intuitive on my part and obviously not a physically demonstrative phenomenon, but definately something that makes sense if you read Malachi Martin's book. Read it for yourself - in fact, 'The Exorcist' was based upon the cases in this book!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (06/18/05 01:19 PM)

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4310544 -

Well the reason I asked is I have been involved in a discussion on demons over at Bluelight.

The demon believers all said stuff like; the're real for sure just trust me don't mess with this, the'll steal your soul and torture you.

Not one could show any proofs, but just got more hysterical as they were challenged. Then one by one they dropped out. Leaving us skeptics behind to start making demon sex jokes.

I have an open mind on this. But frankly find it hard to believe.

I googled your guy Martin, Didn't look too deeply but it looked like UFO type stuff to me.

I did like the Exorcist though. "What do you think of your cunting daughter now?" :projectile:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: Icelander]
    #4310570 -

one curious thing also......the whole christian image(loving,forgiving,etc.etc) of god depends on sin,evil, & hate.....

without evil the christian image of god would be shattered....

that clues u into the fact that they are both one in the same..and are mutually dependent upon each other....


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"to be free of the opinion of others......to be free of the opinion of yourself............"

I have schizophrenia.All my post are lies written by one of my alter egos.Help search for a cure.


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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: Billy1111]
    #4310610 -

Well I don't see good and evil as just a christian concept. It's a fact of life and needs no religion.

What we're talking about here is human evil vs demonic evil. My current belief which is up for revision is that so called demonic evil or the personification of Satan, is really just the imaginings of the human mind. Sort of like the Bardo states of Buddhism. Where our negative thought forms manifest as demons which scare the bejesus out of us because we believe them to be real and outside of ourselves and not our own mental creation.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: Icelander]
    #4310680 -

Regardless of his personality, the book has been around for quite a while. IF it is accurate reporting, there are good illustrations of a human being oppressed or possessed by infernal intelligence. The thing about demons or any disembodied 'intelligence,' is that like quantum physics, we must use models because both consciousness and microphysics do not 'fill space' as we commonly perceive things. When a fresh water river runs into a saltwater basin, it is transparent water running into transparent water, but the quality of both waters is radically different, and one type might be detrimental or deadly to the life-forms living in either. The best metaphor for demonic assault (hey, salt, assault, ahem...) that I can come up with at the moment.

When we talk about 'autonomous complexes' 'emerging' from the unconscious, is there really a 'movement' of consciousness within consciousness, like the water metaphor? Probably not. To say that there is no 'mystery' in the universe is to affirm that there is no Transcendence - nothing beyond the horizon of one's limitations - the universe of possibility is defined by one's perception of it without intuiting 'more.'


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4310704 -

I think you're old enough to understand the difference between mythic thinking and scientific thinking, between mythology and cosmology, between apples and oranges (in Truth, apples and oranges are both fruit). Mythology arrives at Truth through the question 'why?,' science arrives through 'how?' Mythology posits "In the beginning...," qualitatively, science posits 'the Big Bang' and quantifies the assertion at 10 to the minus 43rd second ago. Intuitive function vs. Thinking function. Truth is singular.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: Icelander]
    #4310743 -

"...just the imaginings of the human mind."

Indeed, and like Jules Verne's atomic submarine 'Nautilus' which later manifested from the realm of Ideas to the physical realm (the first atomic sub named Nautilus was brilliant  :cool:), many other 'imaginary' ideas have likewise manifested. First there is an 'image' in imagination, and in imitation of the Biblical idea that humankind in made "in the image and likeness" of GOD, we also seem to work this way on the microcosmic level. Minimalizing just what the implications of the word 'imagination' means is short-sighted. Einstein affirmed this more than once. Magicks, high and low (theurgy and thaumaturgy) are said to operate through imagination. The Jungian practice of 'Active Imagination' is a powerful inner experience and is considered to be a modern form of magick. Crazy?  Then Jules Verne was not a visionary, he was 'just imagining' things  :frown:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... *DELETED* [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4310973 -

Post deleted by dorkus

Reason for deletion: .

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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: Icelander]
    #4311132 -

Personally i found the book to be very credible, no way do i think Martin was making any of this up, just the dialogue between him and the priest in the garden weeks before the priest passed away is enough proof for me as to the veracity of the author's reporting. Plus, i have been the victim of demonic assaults during the night in the past and only someone who has never had that horrible experience would refer to it as "night terrors" or w/e the "rational" explanation is called....sleep paralysis i think. Anyway as hokey as this is going to sound: I haven't had one single attack since i started wearing a crucifix to bed at night and have a Holy Bible beside my bed :smile:


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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"


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Re: The presence of evil, and the creater of everything... [Re: uriahchase]
    #4311250 -

I think, translated:
'The presence of evil' is equal to 'the absence of the creator', is a good picture.
The creation without the creator...
(even if there's, of course, still something of the creator left in that creation :wink:)

...and as more far we go away from the creator, the creation itself regards as creator.

All this is omnipresent.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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