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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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evil
    #5578257 - 05/01/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What is evil in your opinion?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineStuckOnStars
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5578265 - 05/01/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

evil is whatever you precive as wrong or bad or vendictive...its in the eye of the beholder..and yet some things not from teaching feel wrong or give bad vibes so maybe there is an actualy snse of defiitive evil,,,im not sure and will tread lighty on that thought


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5578484 - 05/01/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
What is evil in your opinion?





One country under god.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

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Posts: 7,894
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5578530 - 05/01/06 07:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ultimately evil is subjective and relative. In different situations, the same act could be considered both good and evil. However, in order for society as we know it to function, those who have power must define rules and laws that if broken, constitute evil. Most regimes have become power hungry, it's a shame.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5578543 - 05/01/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Evil to me is conscious harm brought against another being. In this sense, only humans are capable of evil.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5580485 - 05/02/06 06:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The abcense of holyness?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5581392 - 05/02/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Primarily, evil is everything that harms oneself.
Everybody will riddle this out in...the smalles group, the family... If the family is 'moraly' healthy, the evils inside the family vanishes. Then evil is everything, which harms the family. This leads to the next group, society. If the society is 'moraly' healthy, the evil inside it vanishes and evil is everything which harms society .. and so on for counties and so on for the whole planet earth and so on...
That's how I see it.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5581713 - 05/02/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Here is what made me ask that question:

A funny thing happened to me one day:

I was walking along one sunny spring day away from the city on the rail tracks enjoying nature around, and there was this old man working in his backyard, and he asked me why I'm alone, then I said, I like being alone, I can't enjoy peace in nature in company of others, then he was all suprized, and started asking me wheather I have a girlfriend, or friends or something to be with, so I just finished the conversation politely and walked away.

As I was walking further, I was thinking how he has infested my church. This place, that part of the rail tracks away from the city, with bushes and trees on both sides is my church, that is where I go to be in peace, to think, to smell nature, to feel the sun etc.
And now this anoying old man is there, and I have to talk to him everytime I see him in his backyard..

So a funny though came over me, I though, gee it would be so nice If I could kill him and clean this place that is holly to me from his presence. So instead of running away from that though, I sort of imagine how it would be, I imagined his corpse there, and peace around because he wouldn't bother me any more. The image felt as calm as that spring sunny day. I didn't feel anger or anything. I felt some kind of bliss, even with the image of his dead body near me.
So I though, is this how dark side feels like? I thought It was all pain and hate and anger, but is it simple indifference?
Is evil when you feel nothing even after murdering someone.

Of course, when I came back, he asked me to sit with him, so I sort of though, he must be a nice man, simply misguided by his social addiction or whatever.

But for maybe one or two minutes I had this emotionless idea of how it would be to kill him, to remove him simply because I don't feel like talking. I felt nothing, just bliss from the sun and the joy of birds singing. And killing him felt like simply redecorating my environment to perfection.
It sort of felt as if he is just a part of nature, like a fallen leaf, he is a part of the cycle, if I kill him, the ground will take him, like it takes a fallen leaf, the sun will shine, the the eternal peace of nature, and warm wind will still be there, undistrubed by even such an act, which is a part of the cycle.

So I though, is that evil? When you harm for no real reason with no emotional reaction (neither remorse nore anger nor satisfaction) ?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5581783 - 05/02/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes. He definitely would think, you are evil, but only, because you haven't shared concepts.
I think, he thought you were right to enjoy nature and he wished to add that you should share your joy with friends, to get the right feeling of 'good' for them too, as he sees the 'communities' part of it, like I described above.
Perhaps you only have to say "They don't enjoy nature", and he would nod sadly and perhaps offer his companionship to you ? :smile:

You know, the devil sees god as 'evil'...


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5581813 - 05/02/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Yes. He definitely would think, you are evil, but only, because you haven't shared concepts.
I think, he thought you were right to enjoy nature and he wished to add that you should share your joy with friends, to get the right feeling of 'good' for them too, as he sees the 'communities' part of it, like I described above.
Perhaps you only have to say "They don't enjoy nature", and he would nod sadly and perhaps offer his accompanionship to you ? :smile:

You know, the devil sees god as 'evil'...




But the problem is that there was no problem. I really didn't feel disturbed by that man, I felt indifferent toward him. The notion of killing him was like changing something in the room so that you like your surroundings better, it felt as "heavy" as changing the position of the flower vase in your room, it felt like nothing, like a simple action to make things even better than they are now. I felt happy that day, i felt such peace there, so I though, If I killed him it would be even better, it felt so insignificant, like picking a flower.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5581820 - 05/02/06 03:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So I though, is that evil? When you harm for no real reason with no emotional reaction (neither remorse nore anger nor satisfaction) ?




I have a simple method for determining it. evil spelled in reverse is live. I see evil as anything reversing the life force into its death.

Indifference to it is just cold, unfeeling. What about when another takes extreme pleasure in the act. Thats a whole nother species of it.

Let me ask you wood. What keeps you from acting out the thought? Give it some thought.

What you said about social addiction would make for an interesting topic. That's not to be confused with healthy constructive socializing one can take or leave. Addicts are feeding off the life force of others, like you felt the man doing it to you. Maybe your desire to kill him came from something inherent to squish that sort of evil from out of your paradise.

I doubt he realizes the energy dynamics at play or that he has a conscious intent to suck you down from out of your high. Most who people who do it are not aware of that.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5581825 - 05/02/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

So I though, is that evil? When you harm for no real reason with no emotional reaction (neither remorse nore anger nor satisfaction) ?




I have a simple method for determining it. evil spelled in reverse is live. I see evil as anything reversing the life force into its death.

Indifference to it is just cold, unfeeling. What about when another takes extreme pleasure in the act. Thats a whole nother species of it.

Let me ask you wood. What keeps you from acting out the thought? Give it some thought.

What you said about social addiction would make for an interesting topic. That's not to be confused with healthy constructive socializing one can take or leave. Addicts are feeding off the life force of others, like you felt the man doing it to you. Maybe your desire to kill him came from something inherent to squish that sort of evil from out of your paradise.

I doubt he realizes the energy dynamics at play or that he has a conscious intent to suck you down from out of your high. Most people who do it are not aware of that.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5581893 - 05/02/06 03:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If you remove something from a room, you are not indifferent to that something and also not to the room.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5581928 - 05/02/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
If you remove something from a room, you are not indifferent to that something and also not to the room.




not indifferent in that way, yes, but I ment being indifferent in the emotional sense.
I did feel a motivation, but it was esthetic, it was not anger or anything human, it was esthetics of my environment.

Sort of like when you are making a game level in some software, they you sort of delete characters if you think it would be better without them. You don't think about who they are, or what their thoughs and feelings are, they are just objects affecting the esthetics of the scene. Sort of like killing someone so they fall down, instead of asking them to move because they are standing in front of your TV.
Not anger, nothing social, nothign human or inhuman, just a wish to see the TV screen.

What made me not do it? Well It's crazy, why would I ever want to kill someone? It was just a though, a dark side though that I wanted to explore.

What I found currious is that it felt as peacefull as extreme love for all life.

Is it possible that extreme evil and extreme light is one and the same feeling and state of mind, which you only came into taking two different paths leading to the same place?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5581984 - 05/02/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I understand you. I didn't speak of emotions. I spoke of 'general' harm.
On the one hand: only the creator may smash what he created. No other one may see the caue, why it is created.
On the other hand: you are the 'creator' (big steersman) of your perception and if you don't stand something, and you have the possibility to move away, it is better to do that than to absolutely eleminate this 'unfitting' out of everyones realm.
On the third hand: Perhaps it is something inside you, what doesn't make the man and nature fit into the concept of your 'room' ? So..why not do any harm and just kill the misfitting concept inside yourself ?

But I understand you. It is the >exclusive< experience of nature (without man[kind]) what you strive for. I do the same.

{Sorry, I got drunk now, and will go to bed. Goodnight to you european folksman :heart:}


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5582058 - 05/02/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

folksman? :smile: what do you mean by that?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5582075 - 05/02/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

But for maybe one or two minutes I had this emotionless idea of how it would be to kill him, to remove him simply because I don't feel like talking. I felt nothing, just bliss from the sun and the joy of birds singing. And killing him felt like simply redecorating my environment to perfection.
It sort of felt as if he is just a part of nature, like a fallen leaf, he is a part of the cycle, if I kill him, the ground will take him, like it takes a fallen leaf, the sun will shine, the the eternal peace of nature, and warm wind will still be there, undistrubed by even such an act, which is a part of the cycle.




i think this is good, it takes a peaceful mind to be able to think about this and not have evil intent, it seems you have good intent even though it would be displayed in a very seemingly bad or negative way...

i duno man


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: evil [Re: Icelander]
    #5583148 - 05/02/06 09:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Icelander said:
One country under god.




Oh are you in that club? Umm... Al Queada? Is that your club?


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: evil [Re: TheGus]
    #5583165 - 05/02/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheGus said:
i think this is good, it takes a peaceful mind to be able to think about this and not have evil intent, it seems you have good intent even though it would be displayed in a very seemingly bad or negative way...
.
i duno man




I don't think there were any intents at all, "evil" nor good.... 
It was a "selfishly" creative fantasy, with a means to get something he had without the other person in the way of his "picture".... 

Wasn't evil, wasn't good, wasn't healthy, wasn't unhealthy, it just was....    :shrug:


P.S.  Oldwood, I am thinking that if you shared your thoughts on this topic with him, he prolly~ wouldn't "bother" you any more....  :wink:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: evil [Re: justAkid]
    #5583234 - 05/02/06 09:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

justAkid said:
Quote:


Icelander said:
One country under god.




Oh are you in that club?  Umm... Al Queada?  Is that your club?




I never said which country. :tongue: :rolleyes: Your post seems foolish and fearful and I choose the club that you are not in.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflinejustAkid
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Re: evil [Re: Icelander]
    #5583343 - 05/02/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I never said which country. Your post seems foolish and fearful and I choose the club that you are not in.




Please don't beat around the bush. You and I both know what you talking about.

And I wonder where did you get that phrase? "One nation under God". I think that it was in the Pledge of Allegiance of Canada. No, I'm sorry Mexico. Damn I know I'm close, I must be fucking retarded, because that sounds so god damn familiar. OH!! The United States Of America.


--------------------
Trust thyself.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: evil [Re: justAkid]
    #5583588 - 05/02/06 10:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I must be fucking retarded,

Then you have an excuse for your ignorance.

I may have used some words that you know but I applied them to any and every country that uses religion to oppress people. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: evil [Re: Basilides]
    #5584375 - 05/03/06 02:13 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Evil to me is conscious harm brought against another being.




Does this mean that unconscious harm such as that done by a drunk driver or 'collateral damage' falls outside your parameter?


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


Edited by Sporetacus (05/03/06 03:18 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: evil [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5584407 - 05/03/06 02:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Evil to me is conscious harm brought against another being.




Does this mean that unconscious harm such as that done by a drunk driver or 'collateral damage' falls outside you parameter?




i think the problem here is evil has become too ambiguous a term which people use in all sorts of ways. for example, although one might refer to the deeds of a drunk driver as evil, there is still a discernable difference between someone who desires to do harm and someone who is so careless and selfish in their own actions that they end up doing harm.


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: evil [Re: Deviate]
    #5584435 - 05/03/06 03:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

there is still a discernable difference between someone who desires to do harm and someone who is so careless and selfish in their own actions that they end up doing harm.





There is?

You make that sound objective. It is still subjective no matter how you phrase it. I don't see the difference as all harm is caused by asleep people. How could it be otherwise?


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: evil [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5585190 - 05/03/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Right on Sportacus. :thumbup: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: evil [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5585300 - 05/03/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:

P.S.  Oldwood, I am thinking that if you shared your thoughts on this topic with him, he prolly~ wouldn't "bother" you any more....  :wink:





lol, yea, I bet  :grin:


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5585650 - 05/03/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

hmm..folksman ? I don't know exactly. It slipped out of me, thinking about you wandering with your two feet through nature, enjoying and wondering, what more people do than living in skyscrapers or on the moon, enjoying 'artificial' human separation :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: evil [Re: Icelander]
    #5586067 - 05/03/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Here is the ugly, terrible face of evil:



--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: evil [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5586096 - 05/03/06 02:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Quote:

there is still a discernable difference between someone who desires to do harm and someone who is so careless and selfish in their own actions that they end up doing harm.





There is?

You make that sound objective. It is still subjective no matter how you phrase it. I don't see the difference as all harm is caused by asleep people. How could it be otherwise?




the difference is intent and it is a difference big enough to determine whether someone is charged with murder or manslaughter. if you dont think there's a difference you can take it up with the justice system.


Edited by Deviate (05/03/06 02:47 PM)


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: evil [Re: Deviate]
    #5586121 - 05/03/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I can take it up with the justice system (as some sort of arbiter of spiritual truth)? If that is TRULY your point of view, I know that you will turn yourself in for illegal drug use...

A man shooting another in the face because he is drunk on alcohol or a man shooting another in the face because he is drunk on a jealous rage are BOTH indicative of being quite distant from The Truth or Awareness.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: evil [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5586131 - 05/03/06 02:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, lovely sporetacus, once again you are correct. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: evil [Re: Icelander]
    #5586142 - 05/03/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Two in a row. :thumbup: Shall I push my 'luck'?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: evil [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5586146 - 05/03/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


I can take it up with the justice system (as some sort of arbiter of spiritual truth)? If that is TRULY your point of view, I know that you will turn yourself in for illegal drug use...


huh? i dont folllow.

A man shooting another in the face because he is drunk on alcohol or a man shooting another in the face because he is drunk on a jealous rage are BOTH indicative of being quite distant from The Truth or Awareness.

thats not what we were discussing, you said a drunk driver. the difference is a case can be made that a man shooting another intended to harm him, while a drunk driver may simply have been trying to get home. the justice system recognizes this and thus has seperate charges.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: evil [Re: Icelander]
    #5586205 - 05/03/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Come one people, the parts of common moral code that you don't like are religious opression, and the parts you do like are "truth of awareness".

What's the difference between preventing someone to piss in public places and preventing someone to kill? Both are just two rules. Some people even get more angry about the first rule.
It's very relative. Its our fear that makes killing worse, because naturally we are afraid of dieing.

This truth of awareness comes from where? Nature? Nature is brutal and competitive. God? Well obviously nobody believes in such a thing.
So where does it come from? Our own wishes and desires perhapse?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineMr_Spliff
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Re: evil [Re: Deviate]
    #5586228 - 05/03/06 03:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Someone mentioned unconcious intent, and another mentioned selfishy acts.I have been reading The Interpretation of Dreams by Sigmund Freud, and he said that a dream is a wish fulfilment, even if you dreamt of killing an old man in his backyard, he continues to talk about distortions in dreams, that there are two 'forces' acting on dream material, the wish and a filter, a sort of cencorship. What I get from your day dream is that you simply wish for peace in your nature spot, and killing the man is the fullfilment of that wish. purely selfish not evil not good, like said before me.

Unconcious intent or not, it does not matter, it simply means that "you" were not aware of your intent, but its still yours. And as an adult I believe it is your responsability to come in touch with your unconciousness, to know your true latent desiers and to confront them head on. Thats the problem alot of times nowadays, people are discouriged from finding themselves, nobody knows what they really wish for.

You did not "want" to kill him, you just wished for peace in nature, to be alone for that time, and he does not understand that so he want s to give you compony, to "save" you from yourself. He does not want you to know yourself wether or not he knows it. Its unconcious for him, his fault.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: evil [Re: Deviate]
    #5586299 - 05/03/06 03:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

thats not what we were discussing, you said a drunk driver. the difference is a case can be made that a man shooting another intended to harm him, while a drunk driver may simply have been trying to get home. the justice system recognizes this and thus has seperate charges.

The justice system is wrong. Get it? That driver knew that driving drunk was dangerous and could cause death and choose to ignore it for his selfish reasons. He's a fucking murderer no matter what our ignorant justice system says. Most of the judges are probably drunks.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: evil [Re: Icelander]
    #5586305 - 05/03/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Yes, lovely sporetacus, once again you are correct. :heart:




explain. how is what he says any less of a subjective opinion then what i said? are you honestly saying that if someone accidentally harms someone due to neglegence (for example they over sleep and dont feed their baby) that there is no difference between that act and the act of intentionally starving your child? i dont see what any "awareness of truth" or whatever has to due with this difference either. you can make the argument that all evil is due to ignorance, sure, but that doesn't negate the above distinction. all plants come from seeds. does that mean there aren't different kinds of plants?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: evil [Re: Deviate]
    #5586328 - 05/03/06 03:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


The justice system is wrong. Get it? That driver knew that driving drunk was dangerous and could cause death and choose to ignore it for his selfish reasons. He's a fucking murderer no matter what our ignorant justice system says. Most of the judges are probably drunks.


you can argue that drunk diving is just as bad although i doubt youll get much agreement, however i still maintain there is a distinction between intending to kill someone and accidentally killing someone due to neglegence.


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: evil [Re: Deviate]
    #5586358 - 05/03/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm, who is more evil, a guy who tortures a bird because he is mentally twisted; or the Captain of the Exxon Valdeez who killed hundreds of thousands of birds, sea mammals and fish due to negligence?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: evil [Re: Deviate]
    #5586381 - 05/03/06 03:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't doubt I would get much support for my beliefs in a world full of drunks. :grin:

I tend to look deeper at human motivation then our so called Justice system. I doubt the distinction matters much to the dead person. :grin: If you drive drunk, to me, it's like shooting a gun into peoples living room windows. You just like to shoot at windows and don't intend to kill anyone. But opps! :minigun:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: evil [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5586388 - 05/03/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Hmm, who is more evil, a guy who tortures a bird because he is mentally twisted; or the Captain of the Exxon Valdeez who killed hundreds of thousands of birds, sea mammals and fish due to negligence?





who is more evil is not relevant, whats relevant is that there is a distinction between these 2 types of evil. because there was much more at stake in the case of the captain, your anaology doesn't apply. a more apprpriate analogy would be someone who kills one bird due to neglegence and someone who kills one bird because he is mentally twisted.


Edited by Deviate (05/03/06 03:50 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: evil [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5586397 - 05/03/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Isn't a moral mind itself a twisted form of the animalistic mind?
So who is twisted then? The "good" mind or the "bad" mind?
Being good is supression of our animal urges, which in itself is an anomaly in the animal world.

You are forgetting that the early man, before civilisation was by all current standards evil, he killed, he raped, he hated.
Civilisation tried to stop that kind of behaviour because people realised unnatural behaviour (from the natures point of view) is far more pleasant that intuitive and natural behaviour.
Yet current trends seem to try to awake the natural brain in the man


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/03/06 03:53 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5586403 - 05/03/06 03:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Every behavior is "natural", it's evolution that changes things.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: evil [Re: Icelander]
    #5586415 - 05/03/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't doubt I would get much support for my beliefs in a world full of drunks. :grin:

I tend to look deeper at human motivation then our so called Justice system. I doubt the distinction matters much to the dead person. :grin: If you drive drunk, to me, it's like shooting a gun into peoples living room windows. You just like to shoot at windows and don't intend to kill anyone. But opps! :minigun:




ok, i see what you're saying and  i'm always happy to meet people who feel this way because i think our society is far too accepting of gross neglegence such as drunk driving. for example, i know someone who had 3 DUIs and somehow still had his license. last sunday he crashed into a tree and split his skull open while driving completely wasted. that could have been a family of four he hit. i guess ive been influenced by the fact that at least half the people i know have driven drunk at some point and i don't want to consider all these people as on the same level of murderers. ive always felt drunk driving was inexcusuable but there are people who will put up a vehement fight arguing its not that bad. for example they'll say a drunk driver only has a 0.000001 chance of causing a fatal accident for every mile he drives. i guss i think murder is worse because when you intend to kill someone there is a far greater chance they will come to harm then when you drive drunk.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: evil [Re: Icelander]
    #5586426 - 05/03/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Every behavior is "natural", it's evolution that changes things.




In a way, but what I ment was natural in the conventional sense of the word. If are hungry, the natura thing to do is eat, if you refuse to eat you are defying nature as it is defined in the conventionals sense.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: evil [Re: Deviate]
    #5586442 - 05/03/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I don't doubt I would get much support for my beliefs in a world full of drunks. :grin:

I tend to look deeper at human motivation then our so called Justice system. I doubt the distinction matters much to the dead person. :grin: If you drive drunk, to me, it's like shooting a gun into peoples living room windows. You just like to shoot at windows and don't intend to kill anyone. But opps! :minigun:




ok, i see what you're saying and  i'm always happy to meet people who feel this way because i think our society is far too accepting of gross neglegence such as drunk driving. for example, i know someone who had 3 DUIs and somehow still had his license. last sunday he crashed into a tree and split his skull open while driving completely wasted. that could have been a family of four he hit. i guess ive been influenced by the fact that at least half the people i know have driven drunk at some point and i don't want to consider all these people as on the same level of murderers. ive always felt drunk driving was inexcusuable but there are people who will put up a vehement fight arguing its not that bad. for example they'll say a drunk driver only has a 0.000001 chance of causing a fatal accident for every mile he drives. i guss i think murder is worse because when you intend to kill someone there is a far greater chance they will come to harm then when you drive drunk.




I think what they are trying to say is both are the same because in case of drunk driving you are blind because of alcohol, and in case of murder you are "blind" because of some ignorance about the ways of the universe.

But put a mouse near a cat, and the cat will kill it, that's the way of the universe, as it is demonstrated. The pacifist way of the universe is nowhere demonstrated exept in religious and philosophical teachnings of HUMANS.

So I still believe there is a difference because people who murder are not blind to anything, they act like animals act, and for the sake of ourselfs we must isolate them.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: evil [Re: Deviate]
    #5586451 - 05/03/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Cool! I believe that we as adults are responsible for our actions and decisions. The culture tends to keep us in a state of adolescent irresponsibility. It's always someone else who is "making me do this" (she wouldn't keep her mouth shut so I had to shut it for her.I did mean to hit her that many times but she made me crazy your honor) Or a chemical imbalance (which could be possible in extreme cases but not the way we are abdicating responsibility for everybody these days) and such nonsense.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: evil [Re: Deviate]
    #5586459 - 05/03/06 04:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

While I don't believe in evil, per se, I do see a difference between someone who is grossly negligent (i.e. the parent who does not seek medical for their seriously ill child, or fails to provide proper nutrition, hygiene, etc...), and someone who is intentionally cruel or murderous.

However, IMO, the negligent person is more hypocritical than the person who is clear about intending harm. When your responsibility is clear, as in driving sober, caring for young children adequately, not sending thousands to their death for political purposes, and you deliberately neglect that responsibility, you are both ethically compromised AND a hypocrite!

"But I didn't intend any harm!" Oh, but they didn't intend to avoid doing harm, either. This type of behavior is repugnant to me.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: evil [Re: Icelander]
    #5586480 - 05/03/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Cool! I believe that we as adults are responsible for our actions and decisions. The culture tends to keep us in a state of adolescent irresponsibility. It's always someone else who is "making me do this" (she wouldn't keep her mouth shut so I had to shut it for her.I did mean to hit her that many times but she made me crazy your honor) Or a chemical imbalance (which could be possible in extreme cases but not the way we are abdicating responsibility for everybody these days) and such nonsense.




Can humans be any different from what they are as a part of nature? Can a killer be any different? Can a deer be any faster?
Or is it all determined by laws of physics? How can human brake laws of physics?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: evil [Re: Veritas]
    #5586512 - 05/03/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
While I don't believe in evil, per se, I do see a difference between someone who is grossly negligent (i.e. the parent who does not seek medical for their seriously ill child, or fails to provide proper nutrition, hygiene, etc...), and someone who is intentionally cruel or murderous.

However, IMO, the negligent person is more hypocritical than the person who is clear about intending harm. When your responsibility is clear, as in driving sober, caring for young children adequately, not sending thousands to their death for political purposes, and you deliberately neglect that responsibility, you are both ethically compromised AND a hypocrite!

"But I didn't intend any harm!" Oh, but they didn't intend to avoid doing harm, either. This type of behavior is repugnant to me.





you make very good points and i think i agree with you. basically this is precisely why i think drunk driving is inexcusable. aside from perhaps a life and death situation there is simply no viable excuse for doing it. so i wasn't necessarily saying the person who is intentionally cruel is always worse, i was just pointing out that i think a difference can be inferred and it is seems to create an interesting point of discussion.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5586578 - 05/03/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
But put a mouse near a cat, and the cat will kill it, that's the way of the universe, as it is demonstrated. 




That is a COMMON misconception....! 

Us cats only intend to PLAY with the mice (for extended periods of time) -
in which if the mouse is not in good enough physical shape, it will die of exhaustive NATURAL causes....
If the little shits did a little cardio workout every once in a while, things might be a little different....    :tongue2:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5586595 - 05/03/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Cool! I believe that we as adults are responsible for our actions and decisions. The culture tends to keep us in a state of adolescent irresponsibility. It's always someone else who is "making me do this" (she wouldn't keep her mouth shut so I had to shut it for her.I did mean to hit her that many times but she made me crazy your honor) Or a chemical imbalance (which could be possible in extreme cases but not the way we are abdicating responsibility for everybody these days) and such nonsense.




Can humans be any different from what they are as a part of nature? Can a killer be any different? Can a deer be any faster?
Or is it all determined by laws of physics? How can human brake laws of physics?




:confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5586810 - 05/03/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

How can human brake laws of physics?





I was once pulled over for exceeding the speed of light.  :cool:


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I'm Sporetacus!


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Offlinestefan
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Re: evil [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5588856 - 05/04/06 01:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We don't even have a word in Dutch that is exactly the same as 'evil' (as in what it means to me).

For me this word breathes a pure dark athmosphere by itself that doesn't have much to do with what is good or bad. I also woulnd't use this word much to describe events in reality, for me it's more about drawings, music and so on that have this certain athmosphere to it.
I like it :evil: :laugh:


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