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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Yes, God created evil
    #7467640 - 09/29/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

There is already in existence a thread similar to this one in the Mysticism and Paranormal forum (http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/7356131/an/0/page/0) yet I felt the need to bring this topic into P&S so that it may be explored unbridledly.
-----------------------------------------------

Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

"God" is fucking us all in the ass.

Let's make this more clear: (To be sure, we are presupposing that God actually exists). God created the universe and all things that subsist within it. Right. Thus, God created Satan, sin, and evil altogether as we know it, knowing ahead of time what the consequence of his creating these entities and non-entities would be. Free will is truly irrelevant here. Hence, it is God's fault that all good and bad things have occurred within this universe.

Perhaps I should leave this conundrum up to Epicurus: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but unable? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Then why call him God?”


Edited by vigilant_mind (09/29/07 03:53 PM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7467653 - 09/29/07 04:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This is all real nice but no overwhelming  evidence exists for God being anything other than a creation of the human :tongue:mind.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Icelander]
    #7467697 - 09/29/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

But what a great distraction from all of the worldly matters, to immerse yourself in a cult with many contradictions, and to try and not go insane by understanding it all. Some people can remove themselves entirely from real life. In the old days they were known as monks. Now they are known as MMORPG players.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7467704 - 09/29/07 04:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That would all be fine if these "dreamers" would quit bothering people who don't give a flying fuck about their insane bullshit. This is what asylums are for, to keep total nut cases out of sight.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Icelander]
    #7467716 - 09/29/07 04:35 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

That's why I like monks that take a vow of silence. All religious folk should be silent. It's what god demands. I know, because I'm not always bitching to him, so he tells me stuff.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7467723 - 09/29/07 04:37 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:

God tells you stuff?:whoa: Not about me I hope. I hate it when non-existent entities talk behind my back.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (09/29/07 04:38 PM)


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Offlinebackfromthedead
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Icelander]
    #7467742 - 09/29/07 04:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)



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Offlinevaportrail
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: backfromthedead]
    #7468089 - 09/29/07 07:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Evil is an opposition. It's negative to positive, or empty to full. It's friction.

And God? What is God? I've heard he is a guide, he is a direction or a path.

So to me, your statement is like saying motion caused friction.

No sir, evil created god.


--------------------
and the hippos were boiled in their tanks


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Icelander]
    #7468180 - 09/29/07 07:52 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This is what asylums are for, to keep total nut cases out of sight.





But if you'll settle down and take your meds, the staff will allow you one more hour of internet access.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7468251 - 09/29/07 08:11 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Evil is a human concept...nothing more. It has no objective existence outside of human agreement.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7468382 - 09/29/07 08:48 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Evil is nothing but the darkness waiting to be filled with light. The darkness is distinguished by the existence of light, and we would not know what darkness is except that there is light.

So if you see evil in the world, then there must be a greater good to overcome it with, or else you would not hate evil things at all.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Icelander]
    #7468512 - 09/29/07 09:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
This is what asylums are for,




Asylum... Forum... is there a difference?


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: hummermania00]
    #7468543 - 09/29/07 09:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Interface :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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Offlinehummermania00
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7468584 - 09/29/07 09:54 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:crazy2::lol:


--------------------
You are a fortunate person indeed, if you can begin each day accepting the fact that during that day there will be ups and downs, good breaks and bad ones, disappointments, surprises, and unexpected turns of events.

When you have solved all the mysteries of life you long for death, for it is but another mystery of life.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7468599 - 09/29/07 09:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

No...evil is a human idea dependent on human judgment.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Icelander]
    #7468848 - 09/29/07 11:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

This is all real nice but no overwhelming evidence exists for God being anything other than a creation of the human mind.




I think you misinterpreted what I was saying. I'm most definitely not asserting that God exists. I am a staunch atheist.

Quote:

Evil is a human concept...nothing more. It has no objective existence outside of human agreement.





I agree with you, yet the fact that evil is simply a non-entity, a man-made concept, does not void the irrefutable necessity that it be discussed.


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OfflineJonnyDeformed

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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7468898 - 09/30/07 12:25 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

The bastard.. i always knew he was behind it all..


--------------------


dubiousness
Dubious compound

it is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong.
A penalty for possession of a drug/plant should not be more damaging than the drug/plant itself.


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Offlineshakercee
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7469043 - 09/30/07 02:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

That's why I like monks that take a vow of silence. All religious folk should be silent. It's what god demands. I know, because I'm not always bitching to him, so he tells me stuff.




Does he point out amazing facts like this?

Quote:

A raisin dropped in a glass of fresh champagne will bounce up and down continually from the bottom of the glass to the top.




your god would probably have given you some moral advice.:rolleyes:


--------------------
Pray, v.: To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce

Medical science has confirmed what the male world has known intuitively for millenia: that scratching your ass is a great aid to complex thinking.

Its God's responsibility to forgive the terrorist organizations such as Jaish, Lashkar etc.
Its our responsibility to arrange the meeting between them and god."
- Indian Armed Forces

"Hey Monkey!! Get Funky" - Tarzan and Jane


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7469089 - 09/30/07 03:26 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

A raisin dropped in a glass of fresh champagne will bounce up and down continually from the bottom of the glass to the top.




Ladies and gentleman, we have the honor to present you the Super Raisin! :yesnod:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7469116 - 09/30/07 04:08 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It's the 'shadow' of creation, filled out by creation itself.
It's the non-existent, lurking sneaking into existence, but only to destroy what it got onto.
Until it will be illuminated to bring original existence back again :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7469395 - 09/30/07 08:02 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I'm sorry, I meant to respond to vigilant_mind. I have to get used to this posting style still.

If there's anything repulsive to us, anything that causes us to quake with the injustice of it, it is evil. We may misgauge evil or believe it comes from a source that it actually doesn't, but the feeling itself is regarding evil itself. It's neither totally objective or subjective, it just is. Or maybe it's both.

I'm just saying, we wouldn't hate evil if we didn't believe there was a good higher than it.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7470337 - 09/30/07 12:44 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

stellar renegade said:

I'm just saying, we wouldn't hate evil if we didn't believe there was a good higher than it.




Do you mean good as in moral good, the good that equals and opposes evil in the universe? Or are you referring to the good as being a supreme being?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: hummermania00]
    #7470388 - 09/30/07 01:01 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

hummermania00 said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
This is what asylums are for,




Asylum... Forum... is there a difference?




Only in degree.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineleery11
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Icelander]
    #7470420 - 09/30/07 01:13 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

God created evil so that he could discover that he was good.

The objection comes from people in chapel perilous / dark night of the soul or those who scoffishly sit around in lower human consciousness making fun of everything, the so called swine you are not to give pearls to.

Once you solidify your presence in the higher dimensions and return to Christ you will be so glad you did, because you are NOT God you are just this tiny frail silly human-thing that IS GOD

and the difference is so vast, God is tiny fragments so that something so very very empty can be filled so much that to the vantage point of this filled vessel there is heavenly bliss in comparison.

you can like this and disagree but if you are striving for freedom from suffering this is HOW WEDO IT as human beings, you can't say

"I just can't believe I'm human!!!!!"

transcending hell (planet Earth) to get to heaven, you will be a very happy person.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (09/30/07 01:13 PM)


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: leery11]
    #7470436 - 09/30/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

hey leery, where have you been? your presence has been missed


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: leery11]
    #7470452 - 09/30/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

God created evil so that he could discover that he was good.


Please tell me how I can get a PR job for possibly non-existent entities?  I really get a kick out of posters here who claim to know the mind and desires of the supposedly most powerful entity in the Universe.

Some might call this delusional.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Icelander]
    #7470467 - 09/30/07 01:25 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Without the forgetting, there would be no remembering :yinyang:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7470475 - 09/30/07 01:27 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Right.:monkeydance::crazy2::whacker:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7470483 - 09/30/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

If god is fucking us in the ass, it's because we want it.

A couple years ago, I reasoned out the same thing you and others have.

1- God knows all that is/was/and will be.
2- God created Lucifer to be one of his primary angels.
3- Since God knows all, God knew Satan would rebel and tempt people into hell.
4- Not only did he know it, he would have had to intentionally create Satan for the express purpose of unleashing evil upon the world.
5- Because the creation of Satan was premeditated, God IS Satan.

But seriously, God as a controller concept has worn thin for me. If you're a starving baby in some third world country, you still have the desire to live, to not give up, to continue breathing and find some kind of joy inside. To fight.

If they can fight until they die, everyone else has no excuse. It's time to take life by the balls. If we don't do it, it won't get done. Being miserable and living in hell is a choice. For some people, it's appropriate. It's what needed for them.

I don't have a cushy life in heaven to look forward to. I don't have the direct experience needed to believe reincarnation is real. As far as I know, this life is it for my ego. I'm not going to waste it. I wasted enough time to know that wasting time is not "what's for dinner".

I can create hell by lieing to myself. It dulls the pain, but the balance is still due. I can create heaven by being truthful with myself, exploring my ego deficiencies with an open heart and a calm mind.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"You’re not looking close enough if you can only see yourself in people who look like you." —Ayishat Akanbi


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Rahz]
    #7470486 - 09/30/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Rahz]
    #7470745 - 09/30/07 02:57 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Nice. I agree.


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7472208 - 09/30/07 10:15 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Do you mean good as in moral good, the good that equals and opposes evil in the universe? Or are you referring to the good as being a supreme being?



Well I believe that the essence of good is a supreme being, but that isn't even necessary for my argument. All I'm simply saying is that evil (if the word is referring to some kind of definciency, weakness or twistedness) is a counterfeit for wholeness, completion and pure essence, and the latter potentially swallows up the former by virtue of its existence. The only other kind of usage for the word 'evil' would be, I guess, the anecdotal usage such as 'evil is so cool, dude'.

I don't believe in a dualistic morality. If good and evil balance each other out, then they are equal, and good is not any better than evil. In that case, they are either both good or both evil, and to call them 'good' and 'evil', respectively, is to create confusion linguistically speaking.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7472248 - 09/30/07 10:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I don't believe in a dualistic morality. If good and evil balance each other out, then they are equal, and good is not any better than evil. In that case, they are either both good or both evil, and to call them 'good' and 'evil', respectively, is to create confusion linguistically speaking.




So you would see no difference in having consensual sex with a girl you love versus having your bones broken by an enemy? Clearly there must be some division of terms here...


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7472263 - 09/30/07 10:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

This belongs to personal interpretation... considering the fact that there are masochists in this world. And also it must be taken to consideration, that, even if he finds it "evil" to get his ass kicked, there are some people who might enjoy the news and label it as being "good".


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleAlion
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #7472278 - 09/30/07 10:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

what god


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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7472311 - 09/30/07 10:36 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

I like the concept of yin and yang. you need one to have the other.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7472331 - 09/30/07 10:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
This belongs to personal interpretation... considering the fact that there are masochists in this world. And also it must be taken to consideration, that, even if he finds it "evil" to get his ass kicked, there are some people who might enjoy the news and label it as being "good".




This is true. Yet, it is necessary that we have different words to convey the nature of different experiences we as human beings have. Or you could just go about referring to all things as mark-lar...lol


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7472357 - 09/30/07 10:49 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

It is good and necessary to do so, but further elaboration is always required. It is required because of education. Because, by the way things are going on right now, people tend to have an exclusive view about life. So if you tell them them "good" they see Jesus spreading blessing and if you say "bad" they see devils all around :lol:
Making a deeper analysis, each time there is required, not only that helps us see the quantities of positive and negative effects and in extent make us able to make wiser decisions, but it also trains our minds and gives us a much adequate and complete view on life. This is what philosophy does.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleCracka_X
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7472417 - 09/30/07 11:10 PM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
This belongs to personal interpretation... considering the fact that there are masochists in this world. And also it must be taken to consideration, that, even if he finds it "evil" to get his ass kicked, there are some people who might enjoy the news and label it as being "good".




This is true. Yet, it is necessary that we have different words to convey the nature of different experiences we as human beings have. Or you could just go about referring to all things as mark-lar...lol





hahaha true true.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7472891 - 10/01/07 04:20 AM (16 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:


Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."


Let's make this more clear: (To be sure, we are presupposing that God actually exists). God created the universe and all things that subsist within it. Right. Thus, God created Satan, sin, and evil altogether as we know it, knowing ahead of time what the consequence of his creating these entities and non-entities would be. Free will is truly irrelevant here. Hence, it is God's fault that all good and bad things have occurred within this universe.




That's a pretty rash judgement. The above verse you quoted has nothing to do with spiritual evil. The word evil is used in this verse in the sense of harm. God does harm. God wounds and God heals. God created the physical universe, but there is nothing intrinsically evil in the physical universe. God never created sin, if we presuppose that God created sin then he would not be righteous and his hatred for sin and want for a world full of peace and love makes no sense. If someone gives you life knowing that you have the choice to do wrong or do right, that's your choice and your responsibility to do right and if you sin it's your fault and noone elses. God gave people life and the freedom to choose right or wrong. It would be wrong to not create us simply because some people make bad choices. God is not a sinner, you are. So take responsibility for your own actions.

Quote:

Perhaps I should leave this conundrum up to Epicurus: “Is God willing to prevent evil, but unable? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Then why call him God?”




Of course God can prevent evil. He doesn't because he allows the natural consequences of things to happen, and because if he judges us all for sin then we would all be destroyed a long time ago. God is patient, and he has chosen to save the final judgment until the end. But he does work in human affairs to this very day, and he establishes justice and government.


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OfflineVisionary Tools
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: shakercee]
    #7472918 - 10/01/07 04:51 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Does he point out amazing facts like this?




Yep. I'm told there's no point to worship as why does god need it's ego stroked? People building churches and temples do it to make themselves feel good and superior to the "uncivilised" (ie:different) folk.


--------------------


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Offlinea_guy_named_ai
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Visionary Tools]
    #7473048 - 10/01/07 07:25 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:


Yep. I'm told there's no point to worship as why does god need it's ego stroked? People building churches and temples do it to make themselves feel good and superior to the "uncivilised" (ie:different) folk.





There's one kind of love for animals, there's another kind of love children, there's another way for your spouse, another way for your neighbor etc.

Worshipping God is the Love that God deserves. He's that awesome, and nothing else would be right.

And it feels so great to know that you are loved and belong, and that God appreciated your love for him. Because what can we offer to him, that he hasn't given to us first? But the sacrifice of our lips in worship and obedience from a pure heart is something that is priceless.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7473092 - 10/01/07 08:03 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)


Of course God can prevent evil. He doesn't because he allows the natural consequences of things to happen, and because if he judges us all for sin then we would all be destroyed a long time ago. God is patient, and he has chosen to save the final judgment until the end. But he does work in human affairs to this very day, and he establishes justice and government.


Sez you. I think you make this all up for your personal comfort. Once again we have people telling us all what the so called omnipotent creator is all about. I think it's a form of death anxiety. I for one take the challenge of living with chaos and uncertainty. For me the rest is spiritual cowardice. But to each his own.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (10/01/07 08:04 AM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: Icelander]
    #7473195 - 10/01/07 09:14 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
[I for one take the challenge of living with chaos and uncertainty.




We're here anyways, right? :headbang:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7473320 - 10/01/07 10:11 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

vigilant_mind said:
Quote:

I don't believe in a dualistic morality. If good and evil balance each other out, then they are equal, and good is not any better than evil. In that case, they are either both good or both evil, and to call them 'good' and 'evil', respectively, is to create confusion linguistically speaking.




So you would see no difference in having consensual sex with a girl you love versus having your bones broken by an enemy? Clearly there must be some division of terms here...



You're missing what I'm saying here. You were defining good as the opposite and equal force to evil. I was replying that they are not equal, and could not be, by definition. It's the difference between consensual sex and rape. Something about the latter makes it worse, from within our experience. It's not a totally objective thing, but it's just different. It's a matter of distinguishing the feelings of both from each other. How could you say that consensual sex (which is good) is equal to rape (which is bad)? You said that moral good is the equal and opposing force to evil, which I don't see. (And even if somebody felt that consensual sex and rape were equal, they would then be saying that either both are good or both are evil. Unless we want to destroy an aspect of our language, one could not be good and the other evil.)

But I was saying that if you're using the terms 'good' and 'evil' to describe two things which are equal, then you're not defining them by the conventional definitions of those words. 'Good' is, by definition, better, or else it would not be desired over what is bad. What definition of good is there but that? If you're saying they're equal then they're not good and evil, they're something else. Maybe mark-lar and mark-dar?


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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Offlinevigilant_mind
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: stellar renegade]
    #7473370 - 10/01/07 10:27 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

You're missing what I'm saying here.




...as you are missing what I am saying.

Quote:

But I was saying that if you're using the terms 'good' and 'evil' to describe two things which are equal, then you're not defining them by the conventional definitions of those words. 'Good' is, by definition, better, or else it would not be desired over what is bad. What definition of good is there but that? If you're saying they're equal then they're not good and evil, they're something else. Maybe mark-lar and mark-dar?




When I say equal, I mean in terms of rate of occurrence (of course this is a little difficult to verify statistically; I'm speaking from personal experience), not in terms of preference. The distinction I am capitalizing on is the disparate nature of different experiences we have while here on Earth.


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Offlinestellar renegade
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: vigilant_mind]
    #7473414 - 10/01/07 10:42 AM (16 years, 3 months ago)

Ah, okay. I apologize then. I thought you were saying, as I take dualistic morality to mean, that good and evil are equal and opposite forces in the sense that one does not (even conceptually) have the upperhand over the other.


--------------------
"I threw a small stone down at the reflection of my image in the water, and it altogether disappeared. I burst as it shattered through me, like a bullet through a bottle... and I'm expected to believe that any of this is real!" -mewithoutYou

"To believe in the wide-awake real, through all the stupefying, enervating, distorting dream: to will to wake, when the very being seems athirst for godless repose: these are the broken steps up to the high fields where repose is but a form of strength, strength but a form of joy, joy but a form of love." -George MacDonald


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Yes, God created evil [Re: a_guy_named_ai]
    #7475145 - 10/01/07 07:13 PM (16 years, 3 months ago)

I'm afraid that all of your anthropomorphizing about God (not to mention attributing a male pronoun), based on ancient Hebrew midrashic writing is as puerile as the rest of the multitudinous 'Peoples of the Book.' Get a grip and stop attributing your literalization in the 21st century to the mythic and metaphorical midset of ancient Hebrews. They, almost certainly (except for children and tribal idiots, never took all their God-talk literally. Even ancient people had enough sense to use linguistic devices to describe the Mystery of existence and the even more Incomprehensible Mystery of its origin.

Your current theology is on a par with a child's 'Big Book of Ancient Gods and Goddesses.' Take note that the disappearance of God's Divine Consort, YHVH's Asherah was a male fear-based reaction to the Eternal Feminine in all of its classic forms: Isis, Ishtar, Asteroth and its variation Asherah. Bearded boys masquerading as grown men while fearing the feminine. The twin cherubs on the Ark of the Covenant were doubtless Egyptian in appearance like the numerous Isis figures of ancient Egypt stretching forth winged arms - symbolizing male and female aspects of God (implicit in the Name Elohim - masculine and feminine). Symbolism then, symbolism now.

God is not the animation of Zeus (Greek, compare with Deos, Latin) found in Walt Disney's original 'Fantasia' and if one is going to use the word God at all (I prefer Being personally), one should realize that it is metaphysics one is discussing, not personality theory. Metaphysical language recognizes that God is formless and as such personality, attributes, actions and anything else described by the verbiage of verbs (e.g., loving, wrathful, jealous, forgiving, etc.) is the pathetic attempt of the human mind to project its own content onto the Formless and Incomprehensible.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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