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OneWhoHasSeen
Temporal Anomaly


Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 301
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 11 years, 8 days
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The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil
#5306240 - 02/16/06 10:27 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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By the 5th century AD, the Catholic church had generally agreed on which books should be in the bible. All other texts were considered heresy and ordered burned were found. Thus, I take anything I find in the bible with a grain of salt.
However, I also know of the importance of stories to explain the unexplainable. This is part of my own personal interpretation of the first story of the bible. IMO, God wanted us to eat the fruit from the tree, he wanted us to rebel against his word. Think about it, everything that the bible describes makes up Adam and Eve like children. What is the first thing a child does when you tell them they can?t do anything? So God places this tree in the center of Eden (the focus of Eden if you will), and tells Adam and Eve they can have whatever they want EXCEPT for this one tree. He knew that they would be curious about it, he knew that humanity always thinks of what it wants (and can?t have), not what it already has been given.
So here we have a tree in plain view and the apparent focus of Eden, we have a God that gives little information about why they can?t have the tree, just that they can?t have it. It is the next natural conclusion that they are going to want to eat it. So then we have two visions of God here. The one that the Church would have you believe, constantly puts hardships in front of us, expects us to follow his word, and then punishes us when we fail. In the bible itself, the quote ?We all fall short of the glory of God.? comes to mind when we think of this kind of God. Man will never be able to meet up with God?s ideal, so (as God knows) is destined to fail him. In this case, God is just doling out punishment for trials we could never complete in the first place. This not only seems ridicules for a omnipotent being, but paints him as a cruel totalitarian.
It is a second God, a God who wishes us to disobey him that I believe in. To me, it seems that God has set this scenario so that we are tempted to disobey him, and thus gain our own independence and willfulness. It is this God that wants us to go beyond relying on him and to become reliant on ourselves. Our banishment from Eden is not a punishment, but the simple fact of living with the consequences of our actions and gaining a freedom that we never had before, the freedom of thought.
If we correlate this story to real life, IMO, we see that Adam and Eve are animals (some branch of chimpanzee), and the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil are mushrooms. Obviously, or awakening from animal intelligence to human intelligence was probably a mixture of circumstances, the discovery of fire, our social interactions, a change in environment from forest to plains. In this way, the garden of Eden is actually the animal world, were humanity were no more then children and we reveled in the bliss of our ignorance. Our eating of the fruit of God is actually our awakening into awareness, a realization of the world around us. Our banishment from the garden of Eden is representative of our alienation from the animal world, and the fact that we can never return (de-evolve) back into what we were, that humanity will continue to drive forward into whatever lies ahead.
Thus, finally, I think the lesson of the story is we must live with the consequences of our actions, and that the answers we seek lies in progressing forward, not back. But I also think it gives us a glimpse into the true master that God is, and that he is not tied to such pathetic ego power games that the church tries to impress on him. Do you think that God felt slighted or angry when Adam and Eve ate the fruit he told them not to? I think we all get momentarily angry when our pet eats food of the table or does something else we tell them not to, but even a creature with as limited intelligence as myself understands she doesn?t know better and has no idea what I really want or not want. I think that if I can understand that concept, an omnipotent being like God would have no problem. The concept that children will be obsessed with doing exactly what you tell them not to is a problem that every parent in existence has had to deal with at some point in time. Again, God would have no problem understanding these concepts. God isn?t about punishment, but teaching us that we must live with the actions we take, to become responsible but independent thinkers. With this knowledge, we get the picture of a God with an interest in driving humanity forward, closer and closer to becoming like himself, gods.
-------------------- A Temporal Anomaly
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
#5306521 - 02/16/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The forbidden fruit was self-awareness, or at least, self-awareness as we understand it. It was us identifying with our bodies. But it hid our true identity by making us believe we are separate from God. It is through gnosis that we can reestablish our true identity as manifestations of God. The forbidden fruit was, of course, entirely necessary for this to happen. It is through us that God could become self-aware.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque


Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 2,415
Loc: ethereality
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
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Re: The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [Re: Silversoul]
#5306546 - 02/16/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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so was it an apple, or a pomegranate
-------------------- Asshole
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WildRunner
Obey little,Resist much

Registered: 02/13/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Where the wild things are
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#5306904 - 02/16/06 01:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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An apple. Thus the "adam's apple". It got stuck in is throat. Or so they say.
-------------------- If you dont know where you're going, any road will take you there.
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero


Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 24 days
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Re: The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [Re: WildRunner]
#5307190 - 02/16/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
The forbidden fruit was self-awareness, or at least, self-awareness as we understand it. It was us identifying with our bodies. But it hid our true identity by making us believe we are separate from God. It is through gnosis that we can reestablish our true identity as manifestations of God. The forbidden fruit was, of course, entirely necessary for this to happen. It is through us that God could become self-aware.

not bad. there were actually 2 trees, and 4 rivers flowing outwards in each direction. its quite a wonderful metaphor.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
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Re: The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
#5307396 - 02/16/06 03:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Pick up a copy of the late great Edwaed Edinger's Ego and Archetype: Individuation and the Religious Function of the Psyche and read just the first chapter for a truly enlightened Jungian view of the mythological material. The Genesis account of Eden is all about the birth of consciousness from the matrix of the unconscious, and its process of Individuation. The Individuation theme is expressed throughout the book to cover additional Biblical material. The Jungian model fits the material perfectly!
Additionally, certain Gnostic sects saw the Creator as a less-than-perfect deity who was himself an 'abortion' of the Aeon Wisdom (who tried to conceive God without her consort). In that mythos, Lucifer [light-bearer], in the form of the Biblical "shining one" (usually interpreted as "serpent") was a hero, not a villain, who was showing the Demiurgic Deity's human 'pets' how to transcend their unconscious animal natures through 'Knowledge' (Gnosis). Some Gnostics used the image of a serpent nailed to a Tau cross as their symbol. The serpent was a symbol of Wisdom, not evil in that instance, sharing the same symbolic valence as the Greek Ouroborous (snale with tail in mouth) or the Hindu Kundalini-Shakti, or the Egyptian Uraeus serpents. As Jesus was supposed to have said along such lines: "Be ye as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves."
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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OneWhoHasSeen
Temporal Anomaly


Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 301
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 11 years, 8 days
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Re: The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [Re: Silversoul]
#5307607 - 02/16/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Paradigm said: The forbidden fruit was self-awareness, or at least, self-awareness as we understand it.
That's exactly as I feel!
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OneWhoHasSeen
Temporal Anomaly


Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 301
Loc: Everywhere and Nowhere
Last seen: 11 years, 8 days
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Re: The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#5307622 - 02/16/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: Pick up a copy of the late great Edwaed Edinger's Ego and Archetype: Individuation and the Religious Function of the Psyche and read just the first chapter for a truly enlightened Jungian view of the mythological material. The Genesis account of Eden is all about the birth of consciousness from the matrix of the unconscious, and its process of Individuation. The Individuation theme is expressed throughout the book to cover additional Biblical material. The Jungian model fits the material perfectly!
What, exactly, is Individuation?
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blaze2
The Witness


Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
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Re: The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [Re: OneWhoHasSeen]
#5307650 - 02/16/06 04:14 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
funny how God doesnt say as me, he says us.
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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spock
journeyman
Registered: 08/26/03
Posts: 1,165
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Re: The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil [Re: blaze2]
#5310709 - 02/17/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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i've allways thought that was interesting.
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