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silversoul7 said:
I heard that in Hinduism, you can strive for pure good or pure evil, and both are considered legitimate pursuits. I think it would be interesting to see someone do evil things for the sake of evil, rather than for self-serving reasons.

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Gomp said:
do 'evil' people think they're evil. then they know? if not? the dont? :P

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Thats another headfuck right there

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Jellric said:
I think some know. Serial killers and saddists.

I think they're aware that society views their actions as wrong, but they don't.
They don't have a conscience. Kind of like a blind spot in their soul.

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CER said:
2Ti 2:26  and they having regained senses out of the snare of the devil, being captured by him to do the will of that One.

ie their minds have been taken captive by the devil to do his will.

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Ja, it is a lot easier to condemn and judge others out of fear when one imagines some inherently evil monster constantly plotting agansit God. 

In the real world, people have personal problems that stem from real causes. In the long run, it is more effective for society and the individual if we find the root of the problem and treat it, instead of blaming some imaginary being and locking these people up in prison. 


Peace.

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CER said:
Fireworks god

Ja, I didn't write 2Timothy.  Paul wrote it in Prision right before he was martered.  So I DID NOT SAY IT.

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Well no fuckin' duh, I never said you did.  As Swami would so wisely say, check your reading comprehension skills.

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WE should not be surprised when secular (nonbeliever) psychologists limited to a natural worldwiew attempt to offer natural explanations for mental problems.  Their worldwiew does not include God or the god (satan) of this world.  Even many Christians who vociferously reject the scientific community's explanation for the origin of the species naively accept the secular psychologist's explanation of mental illnes.  Reasearch based on the scientific method of investigation of human spiritual problems is not wrong; it's just incomplete.
Neil T. Anderson Author of The Bondage Breaker.

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Hhhm... that shut me right up. 

Yes, mental problems cannot be analyzed without adding God and Satan to the equation, despite the fact that God and Satan have nothing to do with the workings of one's mind (there is no way to observe or verify that they do, even indirectly). They are extra variables that are not needed to explain mental problems.

Your quoted statement above does not really say anything of much signifigance to anyone who is capable of reading and understanding thought. In essence, it is fluff, in my ever so humble.  It simply denounces psychologists who do not think or analyze in methods that include the literal idea of God or Satan, labels Christians who accept these psychologists explanations and theories on mental problems as "naive", and then surmises that, since these psychologists do not prescribe to Christian faith, they do not have complete thoughts on the matter. He gives no reason to support his view, no evidence on how God and Satan actually influence and cause mental problems, and does not demonstrate how exactly these "natural worldview" psychologists are wrong in their analyzations.

Let me ask you, do you think your own thoughts, or are you constantly referencing others thoughts? Usually, when one learns, they piece it together in their own mind themselves, as they understand it, and then, since they understand what they learned, are able to express it in their own words, as their own expressions, thoughts, and ideas, instead of reciting it by rote (defintion: A memorizing process using routine or repetition, often without full attention or comprehension). They consider what they are learning, test it, and actually think. 


Peace.

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MovingTarget said:
I believe some good intentions can also have bad intentions behind them.  Like people giving gifts to others to make themselves look good and similar things like that.

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ok so we can look further and see that to make themselves feel better...well why would they want that?

an ego thing
they want to feel good about themselves...and that is positive, though it may be a twisted way to go about doing it. I think this could be a result of their past experiences and what society at large brainwashes us into thinking...though I'm getting into my own speculation/opinion here now

depending on that answer we could find a positive, though it may be over analysing a little bit.  then again, that's one of the uses of this forum

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CER said:
My Fireworks god you have a lot of time on your hands.

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kaiowas said:
fireworks...a little more respect needed

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Regarding what?


Peace.

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CER said:
Fireworks god said:
Yes, mental problems cannot be analyzed without adding God and Satan to the equation, despite the fact that God and Satan have nothing to do with the workings of one's mind. 
Although I think that statement contradicts itself?

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I didn't pay enough attention to use some sort of emoticon or aside to note it, but the first section of that sentence "mental problems cannot be analyzed without adding God and Satan to the equation" was mocking the original quote, acting as a summation of what that quote said, and the second part purposely contradicting the first part. It was done in humour and to show how "off the rocker" the first part of the sentence was.

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Your problem with accepting my opinion is that it is not my opinion.  It was a verse from the Bible that implies that YES Satan can have control over our minds??who?s minds have been taken captive to do his will.?

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If I believe in a God who created the universe and beyond, myself and everything in it, wouldn?t it be ridiculous for me to believe he has ?nothing to do with the workings of one?s mind??

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That really depends on exactly what you believe God is, the manner in which he created the universe, and its role in the universe as it is now. As I do not see a conscious creation of the universe, or some sort of sentinent being as being "God" (as it has been noted here before, a completely useless word which cannot carry meaning any longer), I do not see how God and Satan are variables in the way our mind works, which I will get into deeper a little bit later.

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If I believe the Bible to be the Word of God, could I not believe it if it tells me Satan can control the mind of a non believer?

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Sure you could or couldn't believe it, but you also have to contemplate whether or not you even interpreted the verse right and realized the intended meaning. In my experience, spiritual teachings, especially the Bible, attempt to allow one to grasp concepts and lessons that are not possible to communicate literally, as the experiences and lessons talked about are beyond words (this is nothing new to partakers of mushrooms or other psychadelics). These words, these verses, often carry deep, hidden meanings that must be carefully contemplated and understood, and are almost never to be taken at face value. It has more to do with coming to experience it oneself than anything.

Essentially, literal interpretations of the Bible are both directly and indirectly responsible for a good chunk of the suffering of mankind not caused by natural forces in the past two thousand years. 

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NO DUH.  I guess that is why the Bible calls you to have ?child like faith? (Mark 10:5 Mat 18:2.

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Yes, believe in something with no experience or reason to believe in it. THAT makes sense. Believing that diseases are caused by demons and ghosts helped us cure disease, didn't it? I don't have a list here of all of the people that have committed suicide in cults because they believed aliens would take them to their planet, or whatever belief they held, but it is extensive. Believing you can fly while on LSD = kerplat.

Remember when I accused literal intrepretations of the Bible of causing a good chunk of mankind's suffering in the past two thousand years? Well, I will now put forth to you that holding a belief in something with no valid reason of holding it is directly and indirectly responsible for an even bigger chunk of mankind's suffering not caused by natural forces in the past million years.

Also, I would like to note, that while I do not remember that particular passage (I have read the four gospels, but do not remember any real detail of them), it sounds to me that Mark was actually referring to having a child-like perception, free of beliefs, expecations, and etc. It seems as though he is suggesting that once one's mind is not obstructing one's total immersement in the here and now moment, that the Truth will be known naturally; if he is, then I doubt, however, that the Truth that will become known naturally from this perspective will appear anywhere near the same way that the majority of Christians believe said Truth is...

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God has already implied that ?wordly knowledge does not draw a person to the truth, it leads them away from it.

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This sounds awfully familiar, and it didn't have to do with some Biblical, external God and Satan, "believe and go to Heaven" at all. This passage seems to have more to do with the fact that the mind, left unchecked, will seperate oneself from the moment, which is all there is. It seems that the Bible used to have an inner, spiritual message of Christ Consciousness and of living in the here and now moment, of connecting once again to pure awareness. Literal intrepretations (and translations, which effectively kill the hidden, spiritual content) have done exactly this, lead away from the Truth. 

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God calls the wisdom of this world FOOLISHNESS.

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But I thought God created this world and this universe and that everything was an aspect of him? God labeled himself FOOLISH? How wonderfully odd and peculiar. 

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I need to reiterate that the message of the Bible is simple. And that alone hinders intellectuals such as you from accepting it.
You need your ears tickled with scientific facts.

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Nothing but baseless assumptions here. A simple idea in no way hinders an intelligent person from accepting it, it makes it that much easier to understand it and see it for what it is. 2+2=4 is a simple idea to understand, and it makes sense too - there are numerable, completely valid, and observable reasons why it makes so much sense. Perhaps intellectuals do not accept these "simple mesages" from the Bible because there isn't any valid, observable reasons to accept them, whereas people of lower intelligence accept them so easily because they do not have a good understanding about them and are easily tricked or confused.

And, an even bigger baseless assumption for you to make is to say "you need your ears tickled with scientific facts", which just isn't true. You've quoted what I said of God from another thread in this very thread, and one certainly wouldn't come to that conclusion as I did if they were only concerned with "scientific facts".

I am concerned with real understanding and real meaning, with putting my mind in a perspective that is clear and unobstructed, with being completely present in the moment. I am concerned with being awake and alive, with being connected to pure awareness as much as I possibly can. I am concerned with seeing reality and life as it really is, which does not allow for baseless beliefs, with believing in things for emotional reasons, meaning I do not let fear, a need for security, power, or love blind me from the Truth. As parts of the Bible itself have declared, the Truth is obvious to those with their eyes open and their minds sharp, their perspective completely clear, their experience of life as if they were a child, completely in the here and now moment.

Now, why is it that I do not believe in an external God or Satan, of an external Heaven or Hell, why do I not believe in the Bible as the absolute Word Of God?


Peace.

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CER said:
The book goes on to explain further of coarse.  I guess FG thought it was a one paragraph book.

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I think the main point the author is making here is that the scientific community disregards God and Satan in their psychoanalysis's (SP?).  Yet the author acknowledges that there are other points to consider such as your upbringing, trauma, car accident, rape, the list goes on.

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If his point is that they disregard God and Satan in their psychoanalysis, then that isn't much of a great point, since there are plenty of valid reasons why God and Satan are not included.

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Lets say I was molested as a child, this was obviously an act of wickedness.  The rapist mind was taken captive by Satan to do his will

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It's late and as you may know, I have to go to Church in the morning.

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I feel sorry for you. I've been enjoying my Sunday in the most spiritual place on Earth: my home, appreciating who I am and my surroundings and what it is that I do. The only good thing I can see in church is the sense of community, and I can think of more effective ways of creating a sense of community, mostly involving true, pleasant, enjoyable interactions with people.


Peace.

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Moonshoe said:
whats evil to one person is righteous to another, and no one can say in any absolute sense what is and isnt 'ok' . All we do is justify our own actions and form our own system for rationalizing what we do. Even mass murdering, rape and genocide cannot be called wrong with anything but personal conviction.

Many mass murders revel in there wickedness, others think they serve some god or angel or spirit and what they do is ultimately good, it all depends on the individual. Most mass murderers qualify as sociopaths , which by defintiion is someone who cant learn to understand or accept social and moral values

even the things we don a regular basis, masturbation, smoking weed, drinking beer, etc are considerd evil by others.

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CER said:
2Ti 4:3 For a time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own lusts, they will heap up to themselves teachers tickling the ear;
2Ti 4:4 and they will turn away the ear from the truth and will be turned aside to myths.

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CER said:
I couldn?t possibly commit the time and energy it would take to respond to all of the points that both of you have made.

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While that certainly is understandable, it is somewhat disappointing, as I felt we both presented a lot of valid points on a variety of levels, all of which were seemingly ignored, and definitely not debated further. If you do have the oppurtunity at some point further in time, I urge you with a great intensity to reply to each point, as you understood them.

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The Bible is the only inspired, infallible Word of God
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

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I am sorry, but it is impossible to prove the Bible as the infallible Word of God, especially with verses from within the Bible itself, and it is entirely foolish and ignorant to think that text within the Bible proves the Bible the infallible Word of God.

Ahem, this is no different than me, in a writing of my own, declaring quite intently that I, fireworks_god, am the reincarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ, and that I am the Son of God, and then to "prove" this by saying "Yes, it is true that I am the Son of God".

No actual proof is offered, and there is no way that what I say is absolutely, irrefutably true because of the simple fact that I said it was true.

So, to repeat, no matter how strongly you believe that The Bible is the infallible, irrefutable Word of God, you have absolutely no proof or demonstration of this being true, and to base your belief of this on statements from within the Bible that say "Yeah, this is fucking true" is completely silly, absurd, and moronic, without the ability to think. This is not an attack, this isn't a summation of my opinion of you as a person, but to make such a wild assumption based on nothing demonstrates an inablity to properly think. No matter how much you feel that it is true, no matter how much you want it to be true, no matter what the Bible says of its own proof for being the infallible Word of God, it is impossible, impossible, impossible to form a belief that it is true if one is actually thinking.

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The difference between the prophets of the Lord and the false prophets who are in this world is as scripture claims; Prophets were Holy men who spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.  You are just two men who think you know everything because you don?t want to believe in a God who judges wickedness

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I think believing the scripture is much more secure than your ever changing opinions of who and what God is?silence, blah blah. Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not.

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Exactly, your thoughts, ideas, and opinions are controlled by a need of security, which implies that everything must be safe, secure, the same, which, by its very nature, closes the mind to new ideas, thoughts, and opinions. How can you know the Truth when your eyes are already closed? To think that you know everything that there is to know, especially concerning something as "God", is absurd as well. 

While "God" may change not, ones perception, knowledge, and experience of it should be in a constant state of change, as the world changes every day, and so do does our perceptions and our knowledge of it.

Someone who needs a gigantic rock to sit on, to feel secure and safe, misses out on the other trillions of pieces of rock, not to mention the innumerable specks of sand. One in a constant state of seeking out knowledge, understanding, Truth is in a constant state of change.

Change = evolution = good.

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The Bible is the only inspired, infallible Word of God.  Historians agree as to the authenticity of the New and Old Testaments wrightings, and contrary to popular belief, transmissions of the text were completed with 99% precision (determined by textural criticism and comparisons of thousands of other manuscripts).
Evidence for the infallibility of the Bible includes: the bibliographical test; historical and archaeological confirmations; the Bible?s harmony (considering it contains 66 books written over 1,500years, by 40 authors on 3 continents) and 330 prophecies about the coming Messiah in the Old Testament fulfilled with 100% accuracy.

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And all of this proves absolutely nothing about the Bible as the infallible Word of God, nor does it in any way validate the actual messages within the Bible - all this says is that, for the most part, it hasn't been all that altered from its original form. No proof that the messages within are correct and are right, no demonstration that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. Sorry.

"330 prophecies about the coming Messiah in the Old Testament fufilled with 100% accuracy' This statement is absolutely impossible to prove, it merely sounds impressive.

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I don?t know what you find so complex that it can?t be understood by man.
What was the use of 40 different authorous wrighting down a bunch of commandments (there are more than 10) that condemned themselves?
And what, God is not omnipotent enough to make sure his word can?t be preserved through time so that all men might have an understanding of HIM.

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Gosh are we all suppose conjure up some notion of God based on our emotions and desires so God is more acceptable to us???

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Let?s take David and his adultery

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Hmm... if a Jewish king, ordained by God, commits adultery, we must all be going to hell. Apparently the Holy Spirit working through even God's chosen kings isn't enough.....

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For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Amen. 

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The condemnations of the Bible are there for you to see your need for a savior.

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The Bible says you are a liar if you say you don?t sin.

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But, since you two make up your own rules and your own god as you go along that does not apply to you right?

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Exactly. Why be confined with a way of life demanded by a book with no proof of its authority when one can be free, as intended? If Scripture was the infallible Word of God, every human being born into this world would instantly know it. What we start out with in life demonstrates more effectively what is expected of us, and since we, as humans, start out with absolutely nothing, no ideas or thoughts - we are completely free, nothing is inherently expected of us. No book can compete with that.

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So stick all that in your intellectual pipes and smoke it.

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Sorry, I only smoke materials that aren't cancerous to my mind. 


Peace.

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Moonshoe said:
Many mass murders revel in there wickedness, others think they serve some god or angel or spirit and what they do is ultimately good, it all depends on the individual. Most mass murderers qualify as sociopaths , which by defintiion is someone who cant learn to understand or accept social and moral values

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You're talking about serial murderers: they are a rather well-understood psychological problem in most cases (socio/psychopaths). Mass murderers, those who kill a  whole lot of people in one go, are a completely different phenomenon which is not understood very well right now. Most are quiet men, who generally obey all the rules right up until they kill as many people as they can...usually don't stop until their killed or they kill themselves.


For Muppet:

I think people like serial killers don't truly think that what they are doing is wrong. They usually have a story for why they do kill people, often religious in nature. I think it's also common for serial killers to think that NOT killing at least certain people would be wrong. Mass-murderers know what they're doing is wrong, though. I think they are the result of a lifetime of with-held anger and frustration. Finally they leap out in uncontrolled rage...for someone who has only obeyed the rules all they can do is what they know to be wrong - as wrong as possible - and so they take the lives of as many as they can, or deem necessary, to display their anger/frustration. They end it themselves.

I don't really like using the term "evil", though