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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Living without illusion
    #4078747 - 04/20/05 10:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Here is a conundrum for you guys. While I do maintain spiritual ideas, for the most part I have spent the last 5-8 years trying to divest myself of illusion. To live without illusion...in a permanent state of total disillusion was the ideal. This was in order to maintain clarity of thought and judgment. I did realize of course that I would never achieve total disillusion, but that was the ideal. Recently I was listing my beliefs in order to cull out some of the more erroneous ones (I do strange things when I am bored), when I realized something. It is impossible to be divested of illusion. Reality is only a waking (and sometimes sleeping) dream. Our beliefs temper our view of reality in such a way as to totally obscure what really might be there. I understand that certain agreements we have made are based on the laws of physics and are more or less immutable, so I am not going to jump out of a plane without a parachute and try to fly or shoot myself with a .44 Magnum and expect flowers to come out the barrel, but our interactions with each other as well as our perceptions of our environment are full and total illusions. To think that one has no illusion or knows what is real is simply to adopt a different series of illusions to live by. This very idea that I know reality has really become a self limiting belief for me. It has made me complacent by blinding me to my true potential. In reality I have no idea what I am capable of...so why let my so called "reality" limit my perception and potential? I am interested in practical results so I am not going to adopt astrology or start worshiping crystals, but the realization that one has no idea of their absolute potential is a powerful one. So, I scratched that belief off of my list...it used to be one I was proud of having.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4078777 - 04/20/05 10:16 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It isn't an either/or matter of illusion or reality, but rather it's all degrees of illusion, that is, degrees of reality. You should be rooted in the Now where experiential confirmation encourages your faith. Understanding not a specific point on the spectrum, or a set of them that constitute your individual beliefs, but rather understanding the entire spectrum. From the illusion, like our earthly world, to the reality, like the timeless and non-local context in which I consider our temporary earthly existence.

Disillusioned understanding is only possible for the Creator, and you can attain this through embracing illusion and exploring it to its logical conclusion, to where it symbolically points, to the common source of illusion and reality.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4078779 - 04/20/05 10:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

:thumbup: Beautious Words. I told you pearls of wisdom come from you here often! At least i think they are. I appreciate these words and realisations as being very wise indeed.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4078827 - 04/20/05 10:33 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

When I was 33 years old I undertook to implement a radical change of my person. I was not happy with myself or the life I was leading. I started with my values and ideals worked through my perceptions and down to my physical life where major changes were wrought. My appearance, career, educational level, and my interactions with others were all changed drastically. Back then I had looked forward to a destination in life and recently I realized I had been at that address sitting in the driveway for quite some time now. I have been thinking for a few years now that my journey was complete and asking why was I not content with it any longer. I had uninstalled old ideas and beliefs and installed new ones which were more effective...but the mileage on the new ideas and beliefs has run out about 2 years back. My problem seems to stem from the fact that my new ideas and beliefs, while better, came with their own set of limitations.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4078840 - 04/20/05 10:36 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That makes total sense. And your new ones will feel very broad and some day, you will out grow them too.

I wrote about that for myself in the tantra post today, the stuff about being ready for a systems upgrade that will allow me to cover even more ground more proficiently.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4078842 - 04/20/05 10:36 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'd bet there is a whole bunch of people who would argue that flower can jump out of a gun becuase universe is a projection of consciousness

I remember, in the old day when life used to scare me as hell, that's the first place where I have hidden like a coward: "everything is a projection of my mind"


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4078873 - 04/20/05 10:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Everything beyond the physical laws of our universe IS a projection of the mind. Our perceptions are governed by our neurotransmitters and our hormones. Add in the values that were installed by other people and you have no idea of true reality. I am talking about installing ideas and beliefs that YOU have chosen....personal freedom. Accepting limitations made on your abilities by decisions other people have made is living under the yoke of manipulation. THAT is my illusion right now.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4078911 - 04/20/05 10:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Yea, but I was refering to views that even matter and physical laws are just like dreams that we drem


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4078927 - 04/20/05 10:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I am not quite ready to go there yet...when I am I will get a set of tights and a cape and set about defending truth, justice, and The American Way.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4078989 - 04/20/05 11:05 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You're right, you were already at the destination. But, the destination is the journey. A static framework of beliefs isn't good because it resists change and impedes progress.

Believe what you see of the physical, have specific knowledge confirmed experientially. But think generally, and the more you perceive yourself in the Now from an all-encompassing perspective, the more you'll gain in general understanding. So what's static is the conventional world you live in, whereas what's fluid, and contingent upon your existence, is more general knowledge.

The most basic example is you exist, so to the extent you are conscious of this you understand its opposite non-existence, death, the Ineffable. This allows you to think beyond this one lifetime, it expands your context. Now apply this increased understanding to your existence again... How it is here, it is the opposite in the fundamental, the Ineffable. Through this process a solid and flexible world model can be built.

If you start out too far off in general thought, and not tied down enough into the Now, then you begin on untested hypotheses, or worse, delusion. You begin on a relative truth, in that you believe it so to you it is true, but in actuality it is illusion. As it becomes revealed to you as erroneous, it points to the deeper truth, forever perpetuating progress. But to regard it symbolically and learn its lesson, first you must understand it as not a fallacy but a relative truth. It isn't totally false and useless, it is symbolically true, and it carries a teaching; nor is it completely true and beyond improvement.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4079089 - 04/20/05 11:40 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Did you not just say that you've been living in a married state for 20 years? Listen, women represent Maya [illusion]. My woman's 'infrastructure' is still in fabulous shape, but I must tell you that the hair thing (braids, -fro, wigs), the make-up that makes the woman I get in bed with extremely different in appearance than the one I get out of bed with; the effect that 6" patent leather, ankle-strap platform shoes makes on a 5'6" tall woman's sexual persona, or a cupless black bustier (both bedroom items); the difference between long fingernails and short, or red nail polish or clear, blue-red lipsticks or pale. How about these things while rolling? Magick. Illusion. The gifts of enchantment via cosmetics, passed down from the 'Watchers' according to the Books of Enoch. Do you know that the word 'Avon,' as in in the huge cosmetics company is Hebrew for 'sin?!'

Yessir...if you're gonna abide with a woman of your liking, you're gonna have to enjoy the illusion par excellence. I do. I decided long ago to enjoy illusion while Knowing Ultimate Reality at the same time. It is a full acknowledgement of living in the relative world along with the Absolute. Fortunately for me, my Lady does not wish me to cloak myself in illusion, e.g., in trendy or expensive clothing ('as if' these things matter). Why, she even mentioned that flying to her daughter's college graduation and attending in blue-jeans (vs. a suit and tie) is perfectly acceptable to her! Far f**kin' out!


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4079127 - 04/20/05 11:50 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

:smile: Nice take on that.

Pick and choose your illusions wisely, don't ever be fooled to think that they are anything but. Don't allow them to wholly sustain your existance; however, use them, and toy with them to the effect that they are beneficial to your preferences.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4079156 - 04/20/05 11:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

My wife does and always has used a bare minimum of makeup. She seems to resent that big companies can so manipulate our tastes through the brainwashing that is advertising. I have never felt that she needed makeup, and that if it made her feel more confident then fine with me. She uses it appropriately, though sparingly. I want nothing, but her happiness and for her to express herself however she feels. I have no opinion about how women manipulate their appearance, If it makes them feel better, more power to them, but if not they should drop it. A beautiful woman really needs no enhancement. We all enjoy illusion...music, movies, video games, and drugs are testimony to that. The bit about Avon is hilarious...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4079254 - 04/21/05 12:16 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
A beautiful woman really needs no enhancement.




:handth: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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OfflineMushmonkey
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #4083844 - 04/22/05 04:23 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

the trick's not to live with no illusion, but rather to not cling to that which you know is false.

the former is end-game.. finality. the destination. since we're all living.. that'd be death, wouldn't it? the only time nothing ever changes.

the latter is an ongoing process.. simply living and not harboring, not nurturing, the ideas, beliefs, and feelings you understand are not true, or unreal, or lies. constant evaluation, devaluation, elimination and recreation. yesterday i believed in unicorns, but today i awoke to realize that i had wronged myself; i had lied to myself. unicorns are not real, yet i desired them to be so and had tricked myself into thinking they were. tomorrow i'll understand it's unwise to allow myself to be tricked so; next week i'll stop allowing my desire to create a more appealing false reality in which to live.

next week's a long way off. always is.


--------------------
i finally got around to making a sig
revel in its glory and quake in fear at its might
grar.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #4083968 - 04/22/05 06:44 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

this thread is going off into a lot of directions
If the primary post is meaningful - mazeltov!


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: redgreenvines]
    #4084336 - 04/22/05 11:04 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The key, during both life and death, is to recognize illusions as illusions, projections as projections, and fantasies as fantasies. In this way we become free.

-Lama Thubten Yeshe, Introduction to Tantra

rather than try to be "free" of illusions, to me it's more of a matter of recognizing them as illusions, that way, I become free of them..

...make sence?? :shrug:


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hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4084548 - 04/22/05 12:32 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I rather enjoy enhancements, in fact I am attracted to over-the-top looking women, and Miami is full of them. What is exceedingly rare however, is a woman who is visually striking in that Miami genre, while being beautiful in her being. I mean, there are lots of physically stunning, but personally awful people down here! I desire shapely, stunning and sexy as qualities in a woman, but for a partner, intelligence, thoughtfulness, faithfulness, kindness, curiosity and reverence for Truth comprise the inner being that really defines her beauty. Besides, I lost the battle for the request of the Lady to wear  stilletto heels :bow: in public long ago - doesn't fit with her Yoga practice.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4084600 - 04/22/05 12:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"What you can do, you have done."
-Unknown :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Living without illusion [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4084754 - 04/22/05 01:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
I rather enjoy enhancements, in fact I am attracted to over-the-top looking women, and Miami is full of them. What is exceedingly rare however, is a woman who is visually striking in that Miami genre, while being beautiful in her being. I mean, there are lots of physically stunning, but personally awful people down here! I desire shapely, stunning and sexy as qualities in a woman, but for a partner, intelligence, thoughtfulness, faithfulness, kindness, curiosity and reverence for Truth comprise the inner being that really defines her beauty. Besides, I lost the battle for the request of the Lady to wear  stilletto heels :bow: in public long ago - doesn't fit with her Yoga practice.




I have found every thing you said here for myself. Fortunately (so I could really check out psysical beauty) before I found my current partner I have had some beautiful girlfriends. Some of them left me so sad and bitter and angry. I was trying to fall in love with an image. My current partner is not, by my image standards acceptable. But I had grown enough through my suffering to see that see was someone so very special that I would be a fool not to admit I was in love with her. Being with her continues to heal my heart and life in all the ways I felt a relationship was supposed to do. And you know what else. She is by far the best lover I have ever had. She is becomming my type and I am finally feeling real love in my realtionship. That's something I had almost given up on. :heart: :heart: :thumbup: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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