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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it....
    #5544888 - 04/22/06 06:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Just wondering what people thought about it - as there are many sides to look at when you think about it....

There is going to be the belief that one should be happy, content, and confident with who you are and what you were given in life....
Thus making physical changes to yourself a "vain" attempt at improving a narcissistic need for social acceptance....
There can be the reasons that one could be making the changes to bring a more self confidence to one's life -
and the following argument that one would not be more self confident with the external alterations because the self confidence problems are internal struggles....

Then there is the other side to the coin....

Some people are just not dealt the same successful physical traits for being attractive in life to the opposite sex - and they ARE self confident....

Does it make someone "shallow" for wanting a somewhat sculpted, more symmetrical face to be more successful in life, mates, career advancement opportunities, etc,
or is it actually "smart" to make enhancements knowing that you more than likely only have one chance at life....?

In a society that is focused on being highly selective due to hardwired instinctual preferences/attractiveness to certain fundamental physical traits,
---what are your thoughts on altering that which people focus on....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5546183 - 04/23/06 01:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm fine with most it... although, I do think plastic surgery should be coupled with psychotherapy for many people. :tongue: It seems like certian people, those who get operated on again and again, will never accept themselves unless they look 'perfect' and also probably have a distorted self-perception. 

On the other hand, who doesn't want to look good? (Besides self-denying ascetics or other antinature minded individuals.) Being able to say: "Hey, this nose is gross. I want a new one" or "These tits are too small, I want to try on a bigger pair" is an entirely new freedom and, in my opinion, the ultimate luxury. Nothin beats self-customization! We now have the technology to, more or less, look however we wish to look and can even decide to become another sex. It's neat.


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OfflineNickSoapdish
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5546384 - 04/23/06 02:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

My problem with cosmetic surgery is that it reinforces the behavior and attitude of taking the easy route, which isn't conducive of healthy growth as a well-rounded person. In the long run, I feel like a person who deals with their "imperfections" by considering that a big nose might not be so important (or even imperfect for that matter) is more likely to end up happier and more self actualized than one who molds him/herself to a socially constructed model.

The previous poster made a good point with this quote: "It seems like certian people, those who get operated on again and again, will never accept themselves unless they look 'perfect' and also probably have a distorted self-perception." Plastic surgery just feeds that insecurity and distorted perception.

However, someone born with a severe deformity or who is disfigured from some kind of accident, who can't walk down the street without people staring and/or pointing, are completely justified in wanting to appear more "normal". In that case, it's not a misperception, people actually are staring at them due to their appearance. If one can overcome that kind of obstacle and still be a well-adjusted person, then it's quite an accomplishment. The distinction being that people don't realistically stare at you if you have a larger than average nose; most people won't even notice or care. If you can't adjust to life with a big nose, you're going to have trouble with real problems that a doctor can't remove.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: NickSoapdish]
    #5546455 - 04/23/06 02:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Cosmetic surgury is for weak people. Also, let it be known that I dont limit the concept of cosmetic surgery to botox and breast implants; I group peircings, tattoo's, lasik, and hair dying in that group as well.

It isnt an expression of self. None of it is, it is merely a struggle to differentiate yourself from the masses of people throug physical, stereotypical means, and the only way that someone can become truly different is with their mind and spirit, and not by deforming their natural body.


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5546466 - 04/23/06 02:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

"Cosmetic surgury is for weak people. Also, let it be known that I dont limit the concept of cosmetic surgery to botox and breast implants; I group peircings, tattoo's, lasik, and hair dying in that group as well."

That is so wrong. It depends on the reasons you want to do these things. Only some of these people can be categorised as weak. We wouldn't wear shirts of different colors then for example. I think you are talking it too far. Plus, all these things are fun!!


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5546467 - 04/23/06 02:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I feel that a desire to change and alter ones very physical self is indicative of a deeper mistrust of reality.

There will almost always be opportunities to mold reality to your ego based views and desires, but one must not be tempted. Refining and changing your image will not bring any lasting happiness. It will only deepen the divide between how you want reality to be and how reality is. If you're constantly running here and there, trying to improve upon this and fix that, then you're missing out on the BLISS of the present moment.

You may not look how you'd like to, but you are utterly perfect as you are. Why fuck with perfection I ask?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5547391 - 04/23/06 01:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Cosmetic surgery is for weak people. Also, let it be known that I don't limit the concept of cosmetic surgery to botox and breast implants; I group piercings, tattoo's, lasik, and hair dying in that group as well.
.
It isn't an expression of self. None of it is, it is merely a struggle to differentiate yourself from the masses of people through physical, stereotypical means, and the only way that someone can become truly different is with their mind and spirit, and not by deforming their natural body.




Lasik....?  What about corrective lenses...?  Filling a cavity in one's smelly rotting achy tooth....? 
A hearing aid....?    A walking stick...?  An oxygen tank....?  A wheel chair....?   
Where do you draw the line between "corrective equipment", and "corrective procedures"...?

The Lasik entry threw me for a loop in this....  Because the alterations are done to help one function "normally" or "optimally" (pardon the pun) :tongue:
-- as opposed to having optical equipment installed to be able to function "normally" (glasses or contacts) ....  :nerd:
I have had blurry vision all of my life, but refuse to go get corrective contacts or glasses - I don't even wear shades....
But, I have considered Lasik because it is pretty fuckin cool to look thru someone else's glasses for a few minutes and see that the world isn't really all fuzzy....!

What about a child that has really crooked teeth, that will not be able to chew/eat properly once they fully grow in...?
Are braces out too...?


And if you are going to say "hair dying"(which is temporary), what about make-up, painting nails, pierced ears, a wristwatch, or jewelry, sunglasses, a hat....? 
And what about hair styling and cutting in general....?
What about clothing....?
What about perfume or deodorant...?
What about teeth whitening...?

Everything a person does is an expression of themselves.... 
As it IS the internal mind and spirit that decides to make changes to one's external appearances -weather they be temporary or permanent....
You can't have the inside without the outside, and visa-versa....
(I do fail to understand how Lasik fits into the "self expression" category as opposed to a "functional" category - in your P.O.V.....)

I don't think it is so much a "struggle to differentiate yourself from the masses of people through physical, stereotypical means"
---as much as it is a "struggle to appeal to the masses of people through physical, stereotypical means"....




>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: NickSoapdish]
    #5547463 - 04/23/06 01:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Brandon said:
My problem with cosmetic surgery is that it reinforces the behavior and attitude of taking the easy route, which isn't conducive of healthy growth as a well-rounded person.



The "easy route"....? People are risking their lives as well as the possibilities of deformity from these sometimes major surgeries....
Then there is the recovery and suffering that they will surely go thru....
What does that mean when someone is willing to DIE to make a few changes here and there - to live a better life, in their eyes...?
The "easy route"...?




Quote:

In the long run, I feel like a person who deals with their "imperfections" by considering that a big nose might not be so important (or even imperfect for that matter) is more likely to end up happier and more self actualized than one who molds him/herself to a socially constructed model.
.
However, someone born with a severe deformity or who is disfigured from some kind of accident, who can't walk down the street without people staring and/or pointing, are completely justified in wanting to appear more "normal". In that case, it's not a misperception, people actually are staring at them due to their appearance. If one can overcome that kind of obstacle and still be a well-adjusted person, then it's quite an accomplishment. The distinction being that people don't realistically stare at you if you have a larger than average nose; most people won't even notice or care. If you can't adjust to life with a big nose, you're going to have trouble with real problems that a doctor can't remove.



OK, this is the reason I posted this thread - as it kind of touches on your above quoted thoughts....

Someone I know, as a child had broken her nose 3 different times thru childhood.... Her nose was pretty crooked, had a bump on it, and was also somewhat large....
Now, she had never considered getting it fixed for cosmetic reasons in her adult life....
But, because of the actual damage that was done, and her getting older, it started giving her breathing problems - especially when she was sleeping....
After trying a few things that didn't work, she was offered the option of surgery to help her breath
- AND they said that they could correct her large broken bumpy crooked nose at the same time...!

She opted to do both, one a functional surgery, one a cosmetic surgery, all wrapped into one, and was very happy with the outcome....
She was confident before the surgery, and just as confident (if not more~so) after the surgery....

Given the options of fixing the functionality problem only, or fixing both functional and cosmetic, which would you have chosen...?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineNickSoapdish
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5547551 - 04/23/06 02:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
The "easy route"....? People are risking their lives as well as the possibilities of deformity from these sometimes major surgeries....
Then there is the recovery and suffering that they will surely go thru....




Many people don't realize the gravity of having plastic surgery, and therefore even they view it as a "quick fix".

Quote:

What does that mean when someone is willing to DIE to make a few changes here and there - to live a better life, in their eyes...?
The "easy route"...?




It means that they have a somewhat unhealthy obsessive fixation on minor physical features, and should probably talk to a therapist (or maybe just a good friend or family member) before resorting to permanently altering their body. A person willing to die for the sole purpose of having a slightly more "normal" looking nose has, in my opinion, their priorities mixed up.

Maybe "easy route" was a poor choice of words. However, what I was implying was that it's often much more difficult to accept, to grow to transcend one's issues of vanity than it is to conform. I think one path leads to a greater deal of self satisfaction, and one doesn't. I don't judge people for wanting cosmetic surgery, even for seemingly shallow reasons, I just believe that it often causes more problems than it solves.

Quote:

Someone I know, as a child had broken her nose 3 different times thru childhood.... Her nose was pretty crooked, had a bump on it, and was also somewhat large....
Now, she had never considered getting it fixed for cosmetic reasons in her adult life....
But, because of the actual damage that was done, and her getting older, it started giving her breathing problems - especially when she was sleeping....
After trying a few things that didn't work, she was offered the option of surgery to help her breath
- AND they said that they could correct her large broken bumpy crooked nose at the same time...!

She opted to do both, one a functional surgery, one a cosmetic surgery, all wrapped into one, and was very happy with the outcome....
She was confident before the surgery, and just as confident (if not more~so) after the surgery....

Given the options of fixing the functionality problem only, or fixing both functional and cosmetic, which would you have chosen...?


>^;;^<




Personally, I'd have them fix the functionality problem while leaving the cosmetic appearance intact, because I don't feel like there's anything wrong with my nose. I see your point though. Like I said, severe disfigurements are a somewhat different story than slightly abnormal features. There's no black and white answer to the issue, but I feel like validating somebody's distorted self-concept, empowering them to believe that there is, or was, something wrong with them when there was in actuality nothing wrong, will only hurt them in the long run. The severity of the "disfigurement" (i.e. having a big nose vs. having two heads) usually determines what kind of long term effects the cosmetic surgery will have on the person's spirit and confidence (growth or decay). If it will truly make someone happier with themselves, then I'm all for it, but where to draw the line?


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5547571 - 04/23/06 02:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yes, to almost all of those phantom... except of course purely utilitarian things like an oxygen tank.

painting nails, Lasik, all of that. Braces as well, which is completely cosmetic.

Altering your body to appease the level of social acceptance doesnt seem petty, or a waste of time, money and effort to you?

I know that Lasik sticks out as seemingly utilitarian, but to me it is like getting a frontal lobotomy because you are schitzophrenic. Changing or altering your stream of perception of the world or reality relative to "normalcy" is ludicrous to me as well.
A temporary change of perspective or perception is needed at time, but a permanent "fix" doesnt really make sense to me.

maybe i have no reality on this subject though. i was born with perfectly straight teeth, perfect vision and a huge e-penis.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: dblaney]
    #5547580 - 04/23/06 02:18 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
I feel that a desire to change and alter ones very physical self is indicative of a deeper mistrust of reality.
.
1) There will almost always be opportunities to mold reality to your ego based views and desires, but one must not be tempted.
.
2) Refining and changing your image will not bring any lasting happiness. It will only deepen the divide between how you want reality to be and how reality is.
.
3) If you're constantly running here and there, trying to improve upon this and fix that, then you're missing out on the BLISS of the present moment.
.
4) You may not look how you'd like to, but you are utterly perfect as you are. Why fuck with perfection I ask?




1) Why must one not be tempted...?

2) There are some people that do have lasting happiness from changing their image, and they are actually sculpting a new reality....

3) A lot of life's time is spent improving yourself, it is what we do.... Some people just do it in different ways....
People don't invest in a 401K plan because they are thinking about today's bliss....

4) For the most part, I agree completely.... BUT, does it make a person "less than perfect" if they cosmetically alter something to make themselves happy...?
They still are who they are, just a little different and more happy about what they are at the present moment....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5547627 - 04/23/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't believe that there is anything incorrect about the desire to alter one's natural appearance. 

That said, it is important to distinguish between the enjoyable "tinkering" with our outsides & the misguided belief that it is possible to achieve emotional wellbeing through cosmetic changes.

IOW, it is reasonable to want a breast lift because I preferred the way my breasts looked before I went through two pregnancies and subsequent breastfeeding, so long as I have a balanced outlook as to the effect this will have on my life, (i.e., I will look better in a bikini, but still need to work on my emotional issues).

However, if I believe that the relative altitude of my breasts will improve my mental health, resolve my childhood hurts, and save my relationship, then I may have a rude awakening afterward!  :grin:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: Veritas]
    #5547654 - 04/23/06 02:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:thumbup:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5547862 - 04/23/06 03:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I suppose it offends God when we alter his creation, but fuck him, he needs a few more years developing his art skills.


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5547936 - 04/23/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
painting nails, Lasik, all of that. Braces as well, which is completely cosmetic.
.
Altering your body to appease the level of social acceptance doesnt seem petty, or a waste of time, money and effort to you?



Braces CAN be cosmetic, but some people can also have functional or painful problems with crooked teeth as well - that can be corrected with braces.... 
But I am not sure extreme cases are the "norm", I dunno~....

I have had good teeth all my life, and I guess it is easy to take for granted.... 
I did once however take a big chip out of one of my front teeth during a weightlifting session.... 
The metal bar smacked me right in the mouth, taking the chip out and turning it into powder - I was freaked, thinking it was a lot worse....
It left a VERY sharp edge, and the tooth was very mis-shapen from what it used to be....
I never thought twice about making a dental appointment to see how I could get it fixed....
It was worth the time, effort and money (relatively, not very much) to get a piece of porcelain glued in and shaped close to the way it was....
It WAS very much worth it to me....  :shrug:

That aside, (most) people work to make money, to spend that money on things that make them happy, and enjoy the life they have.... 
Most of the things other people spend money on could be considered to be a waste of time effort and money, to someone else....




Quote:

I know that Lasik sticks out as seemingly utilitarian, but to me it is like getting a frontal lobotomy because you are schitzophrenic. Changing or altering your stream of perception of the world or reality relative to "normalcy" is ludicrous to me as well.
A temporary change of perspective or perception is needed at time, but a permanent "fix" doesnt really make sense to me.



Comparing Lasik to a Lobotomy....!?    :rolleyes:  That is a little extreme for comparison purposes...?    :lol:
I justify Lasik (for me) as getting a fresh new pair of eyes with which to view the world with a crispy clear new perspective.... 
It doesn't change the reality of the world, it would make the reality of the visual world more clear....    :shrug:




Quote:

maybe i have no reality on this subject though. i was born with perfectly straight teeth, perfect vision and a huge e-penis.




:lol:  :penis:



>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: Veritas]
    #5547989 - 04/23/06 04:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I agree Veritas....  :thumbup:

BTW, I have a good friend that had the procedures for the same reasons, and got small implants under the muscle....
She was working out doing push-ups, and one popped out from behind the muscle causing problems that had to be fixed....
The Docs fixed it for free because nothing like this had ever happened to their knowledge, and they told her to to do push-ups against the wall from then on out....


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Plastic/Cosmetic Surgury & the Philosophy behind it.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5548273 - 04/23/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

dblaney said:
I feel that a desire to change and alter ones very physical self is indicative of a deeper mistrust of reality.
.
1) There will almost always be opportunities to mold reality to your ego based views and desires, but one must not be tempted.
.
2) Refining and changing your image will not bring any lasting happiness. It will only deepen the divide between how you want reality to be and how reality is.
.
3) If you're constantly running here and there, trying to improve upon this and fix that, then you're missing out on the BLISS of the present moment.
.
4) You may not look how you'd like to, but you are utterly perfect as you are. Why fuck with perfection I ask?




1) Why must one not be tempted...?

2) There are some people that do have lasting happiness from changing their image, and they are actually sculpting a new reality....

3) A lot of life's time is spent improving yourself, it is what we do....  Some people just do it in different ways....
People don't invest in a 401K plan because they are thinking about today's bliss....

4) For the most part, I agree completely....  BUT, does it make a person "less than perfect" if they cosmetically alter something to make themselves happy...?
They still are who they are, just a little different and more happy about what they are at the present moment....


>^;;^<




1. Because acting on such desires only enhances feelings of division and disharmony, thereby creating suffering.

2. True

3. Also true, but if you concentrate on what you perceive to be physical imperfections, then it's likely you will focus on other things that your ego doesn't much like. IMO, it would be far better to first bring your mind in accord/union with Reality, and THEN (if you can :tongue: ) worry about your physical appearance.

4. No, it certainly doesn't make a person 'less than perfect'. HOWEVER, I fear that if you can't be happy about the way you look, then there are going to be lots of things that make you unhappy. This is why I suggest first getting to know your Self, and then worrying about your physical appearance. If you're able to realize your Self, then nothing will be able to phase you ever again. If you neglect it though, and worry about superficial appearances, you will still have to suffer through ups and downs of reality.

IMO, it is better to be joyous for what you've got. Then instead of trying to impress people with your physical features, people will be genuinely attracted to who you really are, for you will glow and radiate. To me, the latter is far preferable, but to each his own I suppose.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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