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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women!
    #801321 - 08/07/02 03:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

disclaimer: what I am about to say may be controversial and offend. Bare with it and read to the end.

Imagine a world where men & women and black & white were actually different. Imagine a world where they weren't equal in all aspects of life. Oh....that's right we do live in such a world. Why do we want to forget that?????

I am talking about the fact that in order to please everyone and be politically correct (PC) we are erasing the very uniqueness that makes the world interesting. Somehow in this world it became offensive to be looked at as different, or have different abilities.

Example 1.) We are trying to prove so hard that women and men are equal that it
is damaging everything from institutions, military power, parenting, etc.

Look at the military: we want so much to say that "men and women are the same" that we enlist women in an obviously male job. Then in order to normalize the qualifications we make women do less push ups and sit ups. Obviously they aren't equal in that aspect if they have to do less push ups. The same thing goes for firefighters....if I am dying of smoke inhalation in a five story building, I don't want some woman that can't carry my 220lbs ass out of the building coming to supposedly rescue me.

Some might be saying now that I am a misogynist but I am not. I love and respect women. Just as I wish men would quit crying about the fact that they are as good as nurturers as women when it comes to children. We are not.

Men are scientifically proven to be better at math and spatial navigation while women are better at speech and multitasking. This is partly why I think that women make better world leaders. Why can't we celebrate those differences and understand that they are beautiful. This is what makes the world interesting.

Example 2.) Look at the differences between black and white. Do you think it is an
an accident that the majority of elite athletes are black? Do you think it
is an accident that the majority of innovators and scientists are white?
(many are asian.....I am only considering black v. white for brevity sake

So some might be saying now that I am a racist. I am not. I respect all people. In fact I claim that I respect all people probably more than most because I see and love the differences between people. Remember, there are always exceptions to the rule. There have been awesome white athletes and brilliant black thinkers. So don't PM me with a ton of examples of how I am wrong. Again there are always exceptions to the rules. And if there is an exception, great, find a woman that can carry me out of the burning building and I have no prob with her being a firefighter.

I don't believe in restricting anyones potential or desires. If someone is up to the task at hand then great. But we shouldn't make all these silly rules and normalized physical fitness standards and affirmative action groups.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 16,499
Loc: Longitudinal Center of Ca...
Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: chemkid]
    #801758 - 08/07/02 08:15 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not calling you a racist, but...

Remember, there are always exceptions to the rule. There have been awesome white athletes and brilliant black thinkers. So don't PM me with a ton of examples of how I am wrong. Again there are always exceptions to the rules.

...you basically said that black thinkers and white atheletes are exceptions to these 'rules' that we all supposedly live under. I do understand your point; political correctness is dumb; lower physical standards for women firefighters is dumb, etc. But the reason we live under those stereotypes is because we continue to acknowledge them as 'rules,' and those who defy them as 'exceptions' of some sort.

I don't believe in restricting anyones potential or desires. If someone is up to the task at hand then great. But we shouldn't make all these silly rules and normalized physical fitness standards and affirmative action groups.

Agreed. There is no reason to have quotas for gender and race if the hiring is done based on ability and credentials. You're right, this whole disease of affirmative action is now putting our lives at risk. If a woman firefighter can rescue me just the same as a man, then GET HER SOME FUCKING BOOTS AND A HELMET!


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Anonymous

Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: chemkid]
    #802216 - 08/07/02 12:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Affirmative action and sports.

Think about it.


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: chemkid]
    #802729 - 08/07/02 04:25 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Example 2.) Look at the differences between black and white. Do you think it is an
an accident that the majority of elite athletes are black? Do you think it
is an accident that the majority of innovators and scientists are white?


Err.. I?m going to assume that you are saying that black people are relatively good athletes and white people are relatively good in science because of biological differences between the two races. If this is not right, then you can disregard a lot of what appears below?


So some might be saying now that I am a racist. I am not.

No, you?re not a racist, and this is really important people. It seems like so many people are insecure because they fear they will be called a racist or homophobe for their opinions. A racist, or someone with a prejudice against a group of people, has a hostile or negative attitude toward people in a distinguishable group, based solely on membership in that group. You do not appear to meet the criteria.

You?ve just made a generalization about a group of people, or a stereotype. You might phrase it as ?on average, black people are better in athletics than white people because of biological differences? and ?on average, white people are better than black people in science because of biological differences.?

In and of themselves, stereotypes are not bad. We use them all of the time, like mental shortcuts. I don?t think yours are correct though. Introducing, The Third Variable Problem.

(sorry this is so long, I really like this stuff though)

Here is an illustration:

At my school building, I notice that people coming in through the east door buy more soft drinks at the vending machine than people coming in through any other door. I think to myself, hmm, something to do with the east door is somehow leading people to buy more drinks. The east door is the cause! But upon closer inspection, I see that those people coming in from the east door are coming from the paid parking lot, while everyone else is coming from the free parking lots. People that park in paid parking are more willing to spend money than people coming from free parking. After passing out a few questionnaires, I find out that this is in fact the case. "Willingness to spend money" is the previously unaccounted for 3rd variable.

So I am suggesting that there are other possible variables besides the biological differences that accompany skin color that could account for the disparity between whites and blacks in athletics and science. A few of these might be,

Socioeconomic status- black people are disproportionately represented among the poor. Poor kids might be encouraged more to engage in extracurricular activities such as basketball and football.

People in da ghetto might have more of a motivation to get out and strike it rich than middle-class suburbians.

Black culture- black families might place more value on obtaining success as an athlete

(By the way, I think there is at least one study that suggests that the idea that blacks are genetically superior athletes on average than whites is false. I?ll try to find it)


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineShroomalicious
You may say I'ma dreamer...

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 319
Loc: The Shire
Last seen: 13 years, 11 months
Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: chemkid]
    #802900 - 08/07/02 05:35 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I see what you are saying and I don't feel you are a racist.

I agree that we can not all do the same things, we are not all equally qualified for certain tasks. However, (and perhaps you believe this as well) we cannot afford to have pre-concieved notions about people based on any trait.

I know and agree with what you are saying about firemen. We need a firemen who can do the job. If you can do the job, you should be in, regardless of class, race, creed or sex. Also, if you CAN'T do the job you should NOT have the job, regardless of class, creed or sex.

Also, I think you hit the nail on the head about reverse sort of racist. We shouldn't ignore differences in people, we shouldn't pretend that we are all totally alike, we should respect the differences (rather than pretending they don't exsist), but without getting hung up on them.

That what you are saying?


--------------------
Shroomalicious - :smile: I love you and in doing so I love myself, because we ARE all one :smile: - "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth leaves the whole world blind and toothless". - Mahatma Ghandi


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Anonymous

Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: buttonion]
    #803010 - 08/07/02 06:19 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The Third Variable can also be called the fallacy of false correlation. I am not saying that was committed here but in other arguments it could be.


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: ]
    #803791 - 08/08/02 05:00 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I guess my biggest concern is the gender issue, not so much the racial issue. Again, I am not a miogynist but it really erks me that we are trying to androgenize the world. MEN and WOMEN are so different yet we want to dismiss those differences and say that women can do anything a man can do or that men can do anything a woman can do....................the simple truth is..............that's bullshit.

The problem is just making sure that everyone gets the opportunity to prove otherwise. I believe that there truely are some "G.I. Jane" type women that would make excellent soldiers but they should have to prove their worth just like a man with the same high standards. Do we really want substandard military in the name of "equality for sexes".

I definitely don't think anyone should be held back from at least being able to try anything they want: black scientists, white athletes, female military and firefighters, stay at home dads (house-husbands), whatever the case may be. But let's embrace our differences and play up to our strengths.


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: chemkid]
    #803890 - 08/08/02 06:40 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I have played in backgammon, poker and chess tournaments. In all three, there are NO men's only divisions, but there are women's only divisions.

The fact that these exist and were created at the behest of women, seem to be saying that in the abstract reasoning field, women (in general) are inferior.

Whether the reasoning behind this is cultural or biological I cannot say, although it seems to be true.

Don't flame me here. Just look at all the top players in all three games. They are 99% male.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: Swami]
    #803912 - 08/08/02 06:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Empirical studies have shown that women possess great aptitude for language and men possess greater aptitude for analytical thought. The studies show averages and there are always exceptions but those are scientifically verified facts.

Portions of the brain correlate with different aptitudes. The region called the Sulcus was huge in Einstein's brain. It does not enlarge with use but the size is genetically determined. That region of the brain is what is used during analytical thought.

More research may show the findings need refinement. But that is what we know for now.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: ]
    #804212 - 08/08/02 10:23 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Empirical studies have shown that women possess great aptitude for language and men possess greater aptitude for analytical thought.

These studies were surveys, right?
What was the control group?
Were there groups of men and women that grew up in a different (read: unbiased) culture? My guess is that they all came from Earth (where men are socially dominant and I bet every culture, from which the participants were tested, demands a similar role for the woman). That being the case, I don't think there WAS a proper control group. I also question the role of genes in determining such things as aptitude (several twins studies support this notion, if I feel like going to my library I can dig up a reference for you).

Overall though, none of us are neurologists (yet...) so it is safe to say that we are all sufficiently ignorant to not be able to get down to the nitty gritty. There is probably an entire shelf to read on the matter before I can make a call on the issue at hand, but I'm leaning towards nurture (maybe nature affects it INDIRECTLY).


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: Sclorch]
    #804254 - 08/08/02 10:50 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No, these were brain studies of deceased people.

Many things about the nature of humans are a combination of nature/nuture.

But that subject is not one I wish to discuss. There is far too much egalitarianism mixed with science to begin with.

I think most things in humans are genetically determined. I lean heavily toward nature, not nurture.

Cheers,


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Offlinechemkid
Be excellent toeach other

Registered: 06/21/02
Posts: 506
Loc: Between a rock and a hard...
Last seen: 12 years, 5 months
Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: ]
    #804321 - 08/08/02 11:14 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Personally, I don't care if someones abilities are determined by genetics, environment, parents, religion, school systems.....whatever. The point being, if someone can't do the job let's not make easier standards for that person. If someone can do the job even if they are not from the normal group of people that does that job than so be it.

Basically..............."PROVE YOUR WORTH"...........for that job.

P.S. If I were a woman, I wouldn't want a job knowing I got it on lower standards. I aint be no charity case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


--------------------
An open mind is the greatest journey of all.


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Anonymous

Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: chemkid]
    #804333 - 08/08/02 11:19 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

P.S. If I were a woman, I wouldn't want a job knowing I got it on lower standards. I aint be no charity case!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Too bad all those who receive jobs and favors don't think like you do.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: ]
    #804547 - 08/08/02 01:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Just how do you do an aptitude test on a dead person?
It would be a SURVEY (of their brain structures I'd imagine). There still is no control group.

P.S. I hate you nature guys...


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Embrace differences.....black/white.....men/women! [Re: Sclorch]
    #805274 - 08/08/02 07:00 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I see what you are saying. It is very possible that there wasn't a control group.

Yes, I am a nature lover.

But I bow before empirical fact whenever I am forced to.

Cheers,


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