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OfflineMalachi
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do men and women share the same essence?
    #1652545 - 06/22/03 01:56 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I took a radical feminist theology class last semester and this lesbian minister professor always took great pains to insist that men and women are 'essentially' the same. I didn't agree, which I suspect was a large reason of the shitty grade I got... but I digress, the ladies agenda isn't the point. The point is... do you guys believe in the ying/yang idea? it's a dualistic concept, seems to be something alot of people are trying to escape in their philosophies. thoughts?


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Malachi]
    #1652566 - 06/22/03 02:01 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Male contains the female inside of him, and female contains the male inside of her. So yes, we are of the same essence, just reflections of each other. We make up two parts of the same reality, or image...

That's my opinion anyway.  :rolleyes: 


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Adamist]
    #1652643 - 06/22/03 02:23 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

What the hell is essence anyway?

I think that although we are both human, we have fundamental differences. There are many issues where men would interpret a situation one way, and a women another. Why would you want to deny those influences. It's our differences that make us who we are.

Feminists have long been preaching that we are more the same, and women should do everything a man does. No gender bias.

But many things are important to women, that feminists try to discourage. Child rearing for one. Stay home moms are on the rise, marking a movement toward more interaction between mother and children.

Feminists believe they should occupy the same postitions as men, in some bid to prove there worth. They should accept the fact there are somethings they are just better suited for.

Not to say they shouldn't have the oppourtunity to do whatever they want. Except combat. I don't think women should be put in a postition of front line combat.





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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1652670 - 06/22/03 02:32 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

What the hell is essence anyway?
To me, it's like the same as life-force (spirit), which is androgynous.

Why would you want to deny those influences.
I'm not denying them. :cool: 


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Offlinelucid
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1652681 - 06/22/03 02:35 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

>What the hell is essence anyway?
for women I think it's those unidentifiable
little bottles in the bathroom with strange
multicolored glop in em... :grin:


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: lucid]
    #1652942 - 06/22/03 04:01 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

i dont know how to define "spirit", so im unable to discuss whether or not males and females have the same "spirit"

unless "spirit" means: the energy that animates our physical presance/and our knowledge of the existance of eternity/how this eternity effects our view of reality.

anyways, cant really explain my definition of spirit, but its basically our mental grasp on eternity, so....in that sense we are different. men suffer from existentialist alienation way more often than women do, because women ultimatly have a concrete purpose in life (birth/raising children/reproduction) while for males, that purpose is not as concrete (having sex?) so, this definitly effects our reality construct----which effects how we concieve eternity, which, I guess effects our soul, but not really enough to make us have different "souls", so I guess we just have diff'rent minds.



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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Malachi]
    #1652949 - 06/22/03 04:06 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Spiritually men and women are basically the same, but we are obviously wired in different ways. Statistical variation within each sex also works differently, because of the unbalanced X chromosome in males.


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1653564 - 06/22/03 02:45 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

atomikfunksoldier said:
men suffer from existentialist alienation way more often than women do, because women ultimatly have a concrete purpose in life (birth/raising children/reproduction) while for males, that purpose is not as concrete (having sex?)





well, I see where you're coming from, but I think that it's more likely that women get angsty later in life when they realize that everyone just sees them as fuckholes. the situation is, I think, more readily apparant to guys.

My opinion on the matter is that men/women do make up some sort of "whole", but a whole made from complimentary but dissimilar pieces, pieces which are symbols for the dualism that drives the universe. which leads me to wonder... are women the 0 to mens 1? cosmic binary code?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Malachi]
    #1653701 - 06/22/03 04:30 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

which leads me to wonder... are women the 0 to mens 1? cosmic binary code?



In my humble opinion........... Yes.


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Adamist]
    #1654996 - 06/23/03 01:20 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Malachi..

Well, you are bringing up yin and yang so I'm going to use it to explain the human thing and men vs women. Within our bodies yin and yang are interacting and that interaction keeps us animated. The mind triggers the body to move and in turn the body consumes food which keeps the mind able to exist. Men are made up of this basic energetic, as are women. In that respect men and women are the same and made of the same "essence" whatever you mean by that. However, yin yang is all about relativity. In the context of sex men are yang and women are yin. The man spews forth sperm which is recieved by the woman. These are the energetics of yin and yang. But in other contexts the woman could play a predominantly yang role in the relationship. If she were the boss she would tell the man to go get stuff that would bring her company profit which would feed her so she could remain in a position of authority. However, take the relationship out of the scenario, and you have a woman who is simply an independant unit of yin yang interaction, and she is no longer the 0 to the man's 1.

Yin and yang are not different coloured bricks that make up the universe. They are dynamic forces that animate matter. So, according to the yin yang theory you are wrong. You probably shouldn't try to use it to prove your points, o false one.


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1655159 - 06/23/03 02:46 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

You are assuming that the number 1 is more powerful than 0.  :smirk: 


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1655271 - 06/23/03 04:05 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

you're not answering my question. I'm talking about essence, hence, relative scenarios are irrelevant. If you still don't understand, I suggest you read some basic platonic philosophy.

and don't cop an attitude. "o false one"? who the fuck do you think you are?


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineAdamist
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Malachi]
    #1655350 - 06/23/03 04:47 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Dogomush is an android sent from a universe 23 quarks away.


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Adamist]
    #1655693 - 06/23/03 09:24 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

XX
XY
~
genotypic varience dictate phenotypic distinctness...
~
oh ya, mens got some estrogenic stuff (behind the androgens), and wimmins got some testosterone/androgenic stuff (behind the estrogen/progesterone), but... vive le difference !!!
~
animus/anima....
god/goddess...
yin/yang...
shiva & shakti...
~
(hmmm, must be time to dig up alan watts' _nature, man, and woman_ outa the old storage stacks somewhere...)
~
~


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: gnrm23]
    #1656039 - 06/23/03 04:21 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

yeah, animus/anima is what really seems to piss off radical feminists.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Malachi]
    #1657511 - 06/24/03 02:51 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Malachi:

The definition of essence is no more clear bolded. Try a larger font then I might get it. That's nice that you are using a word that nobody has a definition for unless they have read "basic platonic philosophy."

relative scenarios are irrelevant in the idea you're trying to get across, and seeing as yin and yang is all about relative scenarios sa you won't misuse that paradigm any more will you? I just thought that because you were using terms like yin and yang that's what you were talking about, but I guess you were just confusing the issue by using terms you didn't understand. Sorry about the confusion. Actually, no, YOU should be sorry about the confusion.

So, false one, now that you see your folly by bringing yin and yang into this, could you give a better explanation of "essence"? Then we can get past me being a know it all jerk and really understand eachother. Or maybe you are just a fascist prick with a tattoo of an eagle killing a cobra on your ass?


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1657552 - 06/24/03 03:08 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

no, I'm not using yin and yang improperly. True, yin and yang can be identified in various relative situations, and that's just the point: something essential is being recognized. increments of ying and yang are the constants, they transcend the relative situation while still remaining parts of them.

anyway, sorry about being rude and all, what I meant by the lippy "basic platonic" quipe was that essence isn't my word, I'm going along with the 'traditional' sense of the word.

essence is the most basic stuff of substance or a category of things that share a common "essence" (I know I shouldn't use the word I'm trying to define in the definition) often this is presumed to be the "soul" (I think that's what plato thought but aristotle disagreed or visa versa). hence the question about men/women is really "at some more basic (profoundly basic, not dull basic) are men and women the same? if so, are they still recognizably still seperate MAN and WOMAN? cause it seems like they'd be neither at that point.

anyway, like, yeah.... I'm still rolling real good.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineDogomush
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Malachi]
    #1657599 - 06/24/03 03:28 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Rock on dude. But your "increments of yin and yang are the constants" isn't true because an object does not have an inherent yin or yang. Maybe what you are talking about with that is the five elements?

Still don't think your essence definition is good enough though, I still don't get it. Using the word essence in the definition certainly makes it confusing. Could you give examples or tell a story that might clear this up? Cause we gotta get past it if you wanna continue.


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1657623 - 06/24/03 03:41 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah... what he said.^^

*runs off singing the Smurfs theme song*


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflinePedM
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Re: do men and women share the same essence? [Re: Malachi]
    #1657708 - 06/24/03 04:23 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

My humble thoughts on the matter..

Men and women share the same essence as bears and wolves and trees and fungus, if you care to take an interest in that sort of thing. There is this essence of life that pushes it's way into things, very mysteriously but accurately idealized by the yin/yang emblem. It's not reasonable to assume that one sex would draw from a different essential source than the other.

For example, if a man is the left hand and the woman is the right hand, and the two are clapping, we would hear a clapping sound. However, if either hand were to be removed in the midst of this clapping motion, silence would be.

Each is a mirror of the other; there is no primary from which a reflection is drawn. The two are absolute opposites but equally inseperable and indistinguishable. The absence of one means the inaction of the other. Both having their origins rooted in the other, they are eternally co-dependent, and cannot be fundamentally betrayed by the other.

If you are standing infront of a mirror, can your reflection move independently of you? Can you move independently of your reflection?

Very much "locked together in dance", as the yin/yang emblem implies quite forcefully.

McKenna's novelty theory flirts with some of Watts' comments on the subject, as well as some of Fritjof Capra's analyses of physics, and the mechanical nature of the universe.


The Tao of Physics, Fritjof Capra (109kB)

The diagram in this image illustrates that a cyclic motion projected on to a flat surface appears to be an oscillation between two extreme points. The projection decelerates as it reaches either extreme, and accelerates as it moves toward the middle, where it will spend the least amount of measurable time. This middle point can be thought of as the point where either extreme is at it's simplest, greatest harmony. It is the point at which deceleration becomes acceleration. Deflation becomes inflation. McKenna, I suppose, would call this "novelty".

There is a lengthy 5-part lecture spoken by McKenna available in mp3 format. Someone has the link in their signature. I have the files locally if anyone is prudently interested.


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