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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 4 years, 8 months
Plotting the War Curve
    #3972441 - 03/26/05 02:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Plotting the war curve Plotting the war curve

By Larry Elder

At a recent White House press conference, New York Times reporter Elisabeth Bumiller called Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, President Bush's nominee for president of the World Bank, "a chief architect of one of the most unpopular wars in our history."

"One of the most unpopular wars in our history"? Hmmm, sounds like another editorial masquerading as a question. To the history books.

? Revolutionary War: Founding Father John Adams estimated one-third of Americans opposed independence, one-third were indifferent or vacillated, and only one-third supported the War of Indepen-dence. In other words, two-thirds of Americans were not in favor of the Revolutionary War. Pro-British Loyalists, called Tories by the American patriots, opposed the war. The Loyalists came from all social classes and occupations. While they tended to be foreign-born and Anglican, Loyalists included large landowners, small farmers and royal officeholders, with a many engaged in commerce and other professions. The Loyalists were strongest in the far Southern Colonies and the Middle Atlantic Colonies, especially New York and Pennsylvania, where fighting became a bitter civil war of raids and reprisals.

? War of 1812: While supported by frontiersmen's desire for free land, Southerners who wanted West Florida, and Western militants who wanted the British out of Canada, the war was voted against by every Federalist member of Congress. The humiliating defeats suffered by American troops made the fight so unpopular that the New England states ? which never favored the war ? considered seceding.

? Mexican-American War: Northern abolitionists and Whig members of Congress widely opposed this 1846 war. The opposition included then-Rep. Abraham Lincoln, and they called the war an "unnecessary and unconstitutional" war of "conquest." In fact, when the war ended, Congress censured President James Polk for starting the hostilities.

? Civil War: Both sides expected the war to last no more than a few months. The Civil War necessitated conscription of able-bodied males by the Union, and prompted nationwide, violent mob protest. In New York City, large-scale, bloody riots raged for four days, causing 1,000 casualties. The so-called "copperheads" opposed the Civil War, and staged some of the largest riots in American history. Widespread Northern antiwar sentiment made President Lincoln pessimistic about his prospects for re-election in 1864. Indeed, a leading copperhead (or "peace Democrat") wrote that year's Democratic Party platform. Ultimately, Lincoln won re-election when public sentiment turned around after the Union Army took Atlanta.

? Spanish-American War: The press heatedly debated this 1898 war, and the war declaration passed with a margin of only seven votes in the Senate. Popular support for the relatively easy fight evaporated over the controversial annexing of Spain's colonies, such as the Philippines. In 1900, Democratic presidential candidate William Jennings Bryan made his opposition to the war the centerpiece of his campaign.

? World War I: In 1916, two years after the war began in Europe, President Woodrow Wilson ran for re-election as a peace candidate who "kept us out of war." Critics pounded Wilson after the U.S. entered the conflict. Opponents of America's involvement in World War I filled Madison Square Garden with protest meetings. War opponents included many Irish- and German-Americans, trade unions, socialists, pacifists and progressive members of vocal radical groups. During this period those groups saw a substantial rise in membership, giving them an even more powerful voice against the war. Wilson considered existing laws insufficient to handle antiwar sentiment, and his administration used various legal tools to deal with the "problem" of disloyalty ? including censorship and imprisonment. More than 250 people were convicted under the Espionage Act in less than a year.

? Korean War: U.S. military involvement began in the spring of 1950 with popular support. By January 1951, however, 49 percent of Americans believed sending troops to Korea was a mistake, and 66 percent wanted us to pull out. The war's unpopularity played an important role in the election of President Dwight D. Eisenhower, who pledged to end the war.

? Vietnam War: In a 1971 public opinion poll, 71 percent called the Vietnam War a mistake, and 58 percent called it immoral.

? World War II: This is the sole major U.S. military conflict with no organized block of dissenters after America entered the war. This, of course, happened only after Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and Germany declared war on the United States.

This brings us to the "unpopular" Iraqi War. Mr. Bush obtained a resolution from Congress (which passed the House 296 to 133, and the Senate 77 to 23) authorizing use of force. At the time of America's entry into Iraq in 2003, a CBS/New York Times poll found 76 percent of Americans approved of the U.S. military action against Iraq. Even now, the majority of Americans want us to stay the course.

Aside from that, the New York Times reporter pretty much nailed it.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Registered: 07/28/04
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Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3972751 - 03/26/05 04:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Right, because americans are the ONLY people on earth.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
Posts: 1,459
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Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: Anisotropic]
    #3973001 - 03/26/05 05:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I don't think that you are correct on that. I have read news reports that people live in other places.

I was watching the press conference in question when the NYTimes reporter threw out that loaded question. People complain about the loaded questions of Jeff Gannon being ideologically driven, but you don't see much outrage over this one.

The good thing was that Bush just laughed at her. It was the correct response.

As for this article I think that Elder makes some great points about our historical reaction to wars.

As he stated 76% of Americans approved of taking action against Iraq. The House and Senate passed it overwhelmingly. The bill was co-sponsored by John Edwards and John Kerry even voted for it. And now that the purple-fingered revolution has come to pass it appears that the American people were right.

May God Bless America, the arsenal of democracy.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3973383 - 03/26/05 07:28 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

When I went to Asia, everyone I talked to disaproved. I went to Thailand, Japan and Taiwan. And while I was on the Airplane home I sat next to two people from the Netherlands, they where jumping out of Thailand to renew there Visas. They told me most everyone in the Netherlands disaproved, and that they where sure that the war was over oil.

(Most of the people I talked to in Asia where the younger liberal types I must admit. Because they are the ones most likely to learn english, along with white collar professionals. But the guys from the Netherlands where older and pretty conservitive.)

While I was in Thailand (around election time) All of the hotel clerks wanted to know if I was going home to get Bush 'Fired'.

And now, (In Canada) I haven't spoken to a single person that approves.

I think what they mean is world wide dissaproval, not just the people in America.


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OfflineJesusChrist
Son Of God
Registered: 02/19/04
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Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: Anisotropic]
    #3973513 - 03/26/05 08:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I wonder if their perceptions have changed since the Iraqi elections. The Iraqi people seem to be doing quite well with the changes that have taken place. I would think that their opinions would carry more weight than a hotel clerk in Thailand. The Mayor of Baghdad wants to build a statue of George Walker Bush. Maybe the people that are directly affected have a better insight on the subject.


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Tastes just like chicken


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OfflineAnisotropic
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Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3973593 - 03/26/05 08:31 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yea, but I haven't spoken personally to any of them. It would also vary greatly on who you asked in Iraq. Maybe a guy that got his position of power partly because Bush's actions wouldn't be the best person to ask.

I guess when they ask questions like this in the US, they should specify if they mean 'people' as in Americans, or people as in humans. Most of the people in the United States would just assume that you are only talking about Americans.

I wonder if this that is true for everywhere or just America.


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Offlineblaze2
The Witness
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Registered: 12/20/02
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Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: Anisotropic]
    #3973969 - 03/26/05 10:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Besides the already stated america vs. worldwide popularity argument. It should be noted that those numbers of 76% approval rating were still when most americans thought that our intelligence was good, but oh yea it wasnt. If you took it now I expect it would be anywhere from 45% to 55% probrobly on the low end(I havent seen a number for this in awhile) I think the war was pointless(all it did is give terrorists a new playground and in turn make us LESS safe), but I think we need to finish the thing. You cant just pull out, if you did that iraq would end up just like Afganistan, and we would just end up having to do it all over again. I am a very liberal person and I can acknowledge that, but dont count me as one of the war supporters because In my opinion we were better off with Sadam in power(save me the hes a bad guy speeches I'm well aware that hes about as bad as they come.) Its like the saying goes, Hes the enemy you know. Peace

blaze2


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"Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein

"peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein

"Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one."
Thomas Jefferson

"To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineSWEDEN
Miracle of Science

Registered: 10/25/04
Posts: 2,577
Loc: PNW
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Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3974825 - 03/27/05 02:07 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

A statue! That's brilliant. A symbol of one dictator taking over for another. What a shitty idea.

Besides, if there was a statue of Bush anywhere out in the open, people would come from all around the world to desecrate and defecate on it. Fuck Bush!


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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: SWEDEN]
    #3975766 - 03/27/05 12:52 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:0lr...h+war&hl=en

One shouldn't look to any political agenda as to it's stated effect... but more so the end result thereof.

The woman's suffrage movement as an example... pointless if nothing happened, it was inconsequential in terms of the movement, it was the end result that determined what the movement was all about.

I tend to think in terms of the end result.

Iraq: A new puppet government for Democracy. A people that is supposedly more free, a people that has supposedly more power, better facilities. Privatized oil taken over by the US government and contracts given to US companies with affiliations to the president.

End result~ more power for the US in the region, more oil for our companies, and a freer people that have power (the last is yet to be confirmed)

Wars are about resource allocation, whether it be through people, land, energy sources (oil), or by way of disseminating a larger population and placing within the confines or your ideology forcibly or not.

If we gave a shit about humanitarian causes... which we don't to the degree that it isn't damage control we would be stopping civil wars, within Africa.

My $0.02.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


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InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
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Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3975940 - 03/27/05 02:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

It seems that most of the world (outside the USA) supports genocide.



Edited by Great_Satan (03/27/05 02:33 PM)


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 months, 27 days
Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3984567 - 03/29/05 11:11 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

All people in the USA wish to kill muslims and eat their babies...


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
Errorist
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Re: Plotting the War Curve [Re: GazzBut]
    #3984793 - 03/29/05 12:53 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

That's what the bathroom wall said in the gas station I was in a couple days ago.


Apparently someone was angry with the palestinians because of 9-11.


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