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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Are you anti-war and pro-democracy?
    #1402761 - 03/23/03 10:23 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Do you know that over 70% of the American public supports George Bush's invasion of Iraq? What's wrong with letting democracy set the policy on this?

From CBS News/New York Times Nationwide Poll. March 20-21, 2003. MoE ? 3.
"Do you approve or disapprove of the United States taking military action against Iraq to try to remove Saddam Hussein from power?"
Approve 76%
Disapprove 20%
Don't Know 4%


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (03/23/03 10:32 AM)


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1402774 - 03/23/03 10:29 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Democracy is a form of government designed to give the people just what they deserve"

I cannot remember where I have seen that, but I think it is appropriate.


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: sirreal]
    #1402784 - 03/23/03 10:33 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

If the majority supports it, and it's being done, then what's the problem?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Anonymous

Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Murex]
    #1402803 - 03/23/03 10:40 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

that's the problem with democracy. just because something's popular doesn't make it right.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: ]
    #1402811 - 03/23/03 10:45 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Wasn't Hitler democratically elected?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineAldous
enthusiast
Male User Gallery

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 973
Loc: inside my skull
Last seen: 5 days, 6 hours
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1402855 - 03/23/03 11:02 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yep, exactly.

I think it's right for people to elect the leaders they deserve, but it's wrong to let, say, the American people "democratically" vote about the fate of the Iraqi people. A country's vote should affect only that country, not one of its neighbors, let alone a remote country of the antipodes.


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
old hand

Registered: 09/11/01
Posts: 1,351
Loc: BC Canada
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Murex]
    #1402866 - 03/23/03 11:06 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If the majority supports it, and it's being done, then what's the problem?




The problem is that the majority is not always right. Maybe seldom right. Not cuz people are stupid, but cuz people are
slaves to authority. Our authorities are not always truthful...


--------------------
  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1402921 - 03/23/03 11:28 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You have a good point Evolving. Just to play devil's advocate, however, let me offer a few other points just to thicken the plot:

1.) Strictly speaking, Bush wasn't democratically elected. Even if one accepts that he FAIRLY won the Electoral College (i.e., if one accepts that all of those old Jewish people in Dade County actually wanted to vote for Buchanan), the Electoral College is not strictly democratic. In theory it is the delegates who cast the votes. Tradition and convention demand that the delegates vote according to election results, but in principle even THAT doesn't always have to be the case. In any event, Bush did not win the popular vote.

2.) The populations of all of America's allies, with the possible exception of Israel, oppose this war by overwhelming margins. If Blair and the other leaders of the so-called "coalition of the willing" actually listened to their people, the United States would be waging this war with ZERO international support and would become even more of a pariah than it already is.

3.) Poll results, no matter what the pollsters claim about "plus or minus 5% accuracy" etc., are notoriously unreliable, which is made clear when you compare two different polls taken around the same time by different pollsters that show widely divergent results. Not to mention the fact that people tend to be more careless and lackadaisacal about answering pollsters than they are about casting actual votes. Not to mention also the fact that poll questions are often skewed to gain desired results.

4.) Approval ratings for presidents always go up during times of crisis. It's just a psychological/patriotic kind of thing. BEFORE the war started, Bush's approval rating was hovering at only slightly above the 50% mark. At the end of Gulf War I, Bush 41's approval ratings soared to over 80%. A year and a half later they were at 30% and he lost to Clinton.

5.) The success or failure of democracies is directly proportional to the intelligence and wisdom of its citizenry. In addition to providing an incentive to everyone to become as well informed and politically active as possible, democracy gives people their just desserts. Democracy is a hard taskmaster, but it forces individuals to take personal responsibility for the well-being of their nation, and personal responsibility is a good thing, no? Democracies make many mistakes, no doubt about it, but they have a greater capacity for self-correction over the course of time than any other system I know of.



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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: carbonhoots]
    #1402930 - 03/23/03 11:31 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The problem is that the majority is not always right. Maybe seldom right. Not cuz people are stupid, but cuz people are

So I guess we should go with the minority vote every time then. That makes so much more sense.

:tongue:



--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineAngry Mycologist
Spontaneouslycombusting

Registered: 11/24/02
Posts: 1,282
Loc: Galapagos
Last seen: 18 years, 8 months
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: ]
    #1402937 - 03/23/03 11:34 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

just because something's popular doesn't make it right.



But then the wall we'd run into would be: What constitutes "right"? What constitutes "wrong"?

And about those statistics: I'd be more ready to believe that they were somewhat true if other news corporations were broadcasting those results. Did they say how many they actually surveyed?


--------------------
The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Anonymous

Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1403420 - 03/23/03 02:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

deleted


Edited by mushmaster (03/23/03 02:47 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1403421 - 03/23/03 02:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

the majority at one point thought that slavery was ok, and so slavery was law. they thought that "relocating" native americans was ok, and so it was law. the majority now supports laws against drugs, prostitution, and gambling. in a democracy, a majority can always oppress a minority. it's mob rule.

that's why we have a constitution. certain things are protected and cannot be taken away, not even by the majority. a better system in my opinion would include a more extensive constitution with more guarantees for individual rights and restrictions on government.


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: ]
    #1404024 - 03/23/03 06:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatable with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."
-James Madison

"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."
-John Adams

"A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way. The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty."
-Fisher Ames

"The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived."
-John Quincy Adams

http://www.ohioroundtable.org/tps/democracy/main.html
BTW: I do support the war.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


Edited by z@z.com (03/23/03 06:38 PM)


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Offlinemike
iHugTrees

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 171
Last seen: 18 years, 3 months
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1404199 - 03/23/03 07:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

bah humbug, no fancy quotes.

i heard this lady saying, 'why all of a sudden do we care so much about the iraqi people, they have been dying for years, and NOW we care."

good point. and i think it is funny how the afganistan operation picked up pretty rapidly right after they bombed iraq for the first time. its like we are just trying to completely get rid of all that oppose the US. if we had a reason i bet we would bomb france too.


--------------------
Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, wearing stripes with plaid comes easy.
-Albert Einstein


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Invisiblez@z.com
Libertarian
Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: mike]
    #1404213 - 03/23/03 07:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

We have been trying to do something about Iraq for a while. For the last 12 years we have been trying to resolve the Iraq problem peacefully. It isn't like we are suddenly going to war. We have been on Saddam's ass to follow the sanctions and do the right thing for a damn long time.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: z@z.com]
    #1404227 - 03/23/03 07:56 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

^
This is true.


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: ]
    #1404242 - 03/23/03 08:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

the majority at one point thought that slavery was ok

No they didn't. It took a tremendous effort on the part of the rich slaveowners to force slavery on the country. The vast majority of people hated it because it took work away from them and drove down living standards for everyone. In the early days there were so many whites helping and caring for escaped blacks that the rich slaveowners had to pass laws saying if you helped a black you would be punished severely.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 10 days
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1404318 - 03/23/03 08:41 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

No they didn't. It took a tremendous effort on the part of the rich slaveowners to force slavery on the country.

Mushmaster's point is that at various times in various places, the "will of the majority" endorsed things that seem abhorrent to us today -- slavery being just one of many examples.

One as well-read as you is certainly aware that slavery has been the norm in countless societies for many millennia. To try to refute that fact (with, as usual, no source cited whatsoever -- just the standard Alex proclamation) by claiming that some Americans didn't like it is disengenuous.

Leaving the southern States aside, the majority of Romans, Africans, Arabs, Aztecs, Native Americans, Egyptians and more regularly used slaves. It was a tradition for centuries that defeated combatants be sold into slavery, and no one thought to question the practice, least of all the slaves themselves. The slaves didn't like it, and cursed their misfortune at being slaves, but few objected to the concept of slavery.

Once again, (as usual) you attempt to nitpick trivialities and avoid the main concept of the thread -- the inherent fallacy of relying on majority opinion as the deciding factor in decision-making.

pinky


--------------------


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1404341 - 03/23/03 08:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

EchoVortex writes:

Strictly speaking, Bush wasn't democratically elected.

Irrelevant to the concept being examined.

The populations of all of America's allies, with the possible exception of Israel, oppose this war by overwhelming margins.

Irrelevant. That is a reason for those allies to withdraw, it is not a reason for the US to withdraw. The most that can be said is that the leaders of those allies are defying the will of the majority in their respective countries. Clearly Bush is not.

Poll results, no matter what the pollsters claim about "plus or minus 5% accuracy" etc., are notoriously unreliable, which is made clear when you compare two different polls taken around the same time by different pollsters that show widely divergent results.

This is arguably correct. It would be interesting to hold a nationwide referendum on this issue.

Approval ratings for presidents always go up during times of crisis. It's just a psychological/patriotic kind of thing.

Irrelevant. The poll was not about Bush, it was about Bush's action -- a "single issue" poll. In every poll I have seen, the percentage of those in favor of military action against Iraq has been higher than the percentage of those who approved of Bush.

The success or failure of democracies is directly proportional to the intelligence and wisdom of its citizenry. In addition to providing an incentive to everyone to become as well informed and politically active as possible, democracy gives people their just desserts.

Correct. Hopefully this attempt at "democracy" that we call the United States of America will escape the historical fate of all preceding Democracies.

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Phred]
    #1404638 - 03/24/03 01:34 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

the inherent fallacy of relying on majority opinion as the deciding factor in decision-making.

Tell me something. How many people in America do you think owned slaves? The majority? Did the millions of poor whites all have slaves? Or was it just a handful of rich people? Would you be surprised if I told you that less than 5% of the whites in the american south owned slaves?

Do you think the majority of the roman population had slaves? Or just a handful of rich people?

If you had put slavery to the vote in America by asking whites "Will you vote for slavery, or will you vote for vastly increasing your own wages by abolishing slavery and forcing the rich to pay you a decent wage", slavery would have been abolished overnight. 95% of the population didn't even have slaves - what are they going to miss?

Don't assume that if something happens in a country it is the "will of the majority". The current attack on iraq is a prime example.




--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1404668 - 03/24/03 02:19 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Correct me if im worng but werent the figures alot closer a few months back? The will of the people may be different if it wasnt moulded by the propaganda machine.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Anonymous

Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1404681 - 03/24/03 02:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

9 vote to eat the 10th, and his children. what are ya gonna do?


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Anonymous

Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1404816 - 03/24/03 05:05 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

alex, you totally missed the point.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 7 years, 10 days
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: ]
    #1404848 - 03/24/03 05:19 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

mushmaster writes:

alex, you totally missed the point.

The sad thing is, no he didn't. He got the point but has no effective counter, so he sidestepped into an irrelevancy in the belief we wouldn't notice. You've been here long enough now to recognize the pattern. When is the last time you ever saw him actually address the point in question?

pinky


--------------------


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Phred]
    #1405098 - 03/24/03 07:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

LOL!  :grin: :grin:

I assume that means you have now learned that your idea about "the will of the majority" was for slavery is complete and utter shit.

Typical pink. When you can't win an argument move onto personal attacks, lay down a smokescreen and hope no-one notices. Twas ever thus  :smirk: 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1405273 - 03/24/03 08:46 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

alex... chill out.

the argument here is that one of the flaws in pure democracy is that whatever the majority wants, it gets. not because it is right, but because it is strong. there have been times in the past (and there are situations now) that the will of the majority has been downright wrong on grounds of principle, yet its will has been made law under democracy.

slavery wouldn't have been legal if people hadn't elected officials who kept it legal. persecution of drug users exists because the majority supports it. in america, the majority supports the current war in iraq. in most states, the majority of the people do not wish to allow homosexuals to marry. in every state, the majority seems to support throwing marijuana users in jail.

in the south, in the 60's, people did not vote for integration. they did not vote for civil rights for black people. equality for blacks was established because it was right, not popular, and had to be enforced in many cases by the federal government.

the public may support laws against "obsenity", pornography, prostitution, drugs, and gambling. the public may support domineering zoning codes. the majority is in these cases doing nothing other than persecuting the minority. our government has been too lame to stand up for the principles which it was founded under and protect the right of peaceful citizens to live the lifestyle they choose, be it objectionable to the majority. the reason is because they have no choice. they are elected and must conform to the will of the majority.

in a democracy, the majority can do anything they want. like elect to burn jews.

i forget who it was that said, "democracy is 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what's for dinner"...

we need a constitution that explicitly lays down what "liberty" really means and establishes a governmental system which will protect liberty, even when threatened by the majority. that's just what the founders of this nation were trying to build.


Edited by mushmaster (03/24/03 09:05 AM)


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Offlinesirreal
devoid
Registered: 01/11/03
Posts: 1,775
Loc: In the borderlands
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: ]
    #1405392 - 03/24/03 09:32 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

That was a great post mushmaster. I agree with every word of it. very well said!


--------------------
I may not always tell the truth, but atleast I'm honest
-----------

I see what everyone is saying. It is so hard to form an opinion when you see both sides so clearly!


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Offlinepattern
multiplayer

Registered: 07/19/02
Posts: 2,185
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1405407 - 03/24/03 09:37 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

> Are you anti-war and pro-democracy?

Although this thread is aimed at Americans, I still answer yes. I live in a democracy that isn't at war: Canada.

Being pro-democracy doesn't mean one must believe what is being done in the name of democracy. As an analogy, it is consistent to be pro-law, pro-Constitution as well as anti-drug war, anti-Patriot Act.

> Do you know that over 70% of the American public supports George Bush's invasion of Iraq?

The majority of the world is anti-war. When it comes to world affairs, are you implying that only the opinions of Americans count? Obviously, the opinions of Iraqis were not a factor.

> What's wrong with letting democracy set the policy on this?

Some polls taken before the war, showed the majority of Americans wanted a UN-approved war or were antiwar. Polls don't run democracies, and this war was not put to a vote. It was the decision of President Bush.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,246
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: pattern]
    #1405652 - 03/24/03 11:05 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

As an analogy, it is consistent to be pro-law, pro-Constitution as well as anti-drug war, anti-Patriot Act.



Absolutely correct, and wise.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: ]
    #1405672 - 03/24/03 11:12 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

the argument here is that one of the flaws in pure democracy is that whatever the majority wants, it gets

Strange. The majority of the US didn't want a war without a second resolution. It got one. What went wrong?

slavery wouldn't have been legal if people hadn't elected officials who kept it legal

Unfortunately officials tend to listen to rich people. Otherwise they don't get very far up the power structure. Rich people were the ones who had slaves. See the problem?

persecution of drug users exists because the majority supports it.

100 years ago all drugs were legal. Do you really think the majority just woke up one morning and "changed"? Or do you think it took decades of scare stories and propaganda to influence them?

in a democracy, the majority can do anything they want. like elect to burn jews.

Hitler never held a vote on burning the jews. He did it in secret. After kristallnacht he realised the majority of the german population were against his jewish policy and he couldn't be as open about it. The will of the majority was sound.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleCracka_X
Spiritual Dirt Worshipper
Male User Gallery

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 8,808
Loc: Swamp
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1405686 - 03/24/03 11:16 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Wasn't Hitler democratically elected?




Wait, I thought Hitler got in the same way Saddam got in.

By killing those against him.


--------------------
The best way to live
is to be like water
For water benefits all things
and goes against none of them
It provides for all people
and even cleanses those places
a man is loath to go
In this way it is just like Tao        ~Daodejing


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Anonymous

Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1405813 - 03/24/03 12:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

as much as i detest entertaining your nitpicking:

Strange. The majority of the US didn't want a war without a second resolution. It got one. What went wrong?

we are not a pure democracy. we are a representative democracy. the majority elected bush to represent them, and he decided to go to war. currently, the majority of the population DOES support the war. and do you have a source for your "majority of the US didn't want a war without a second resolution." claim?

Unfortunately officials tend to listen to rich people. Otherwise they don't get very far up the power structure.

no, they listen to the majority. a rich man's vote is worth the same as a poor man's.

100 years ago all drugs were legal. Do you really think the majority just woke up one morning and "changed"? Or do you think it took decades of scare stories and propaganda to influence them?

the public was corrupted to the point that the majority voted into law a policy that persecuted a minority. an example of the problem of democracy.

Hitler never held a vote on burning the jews. He did it in secret. After kristallnacht he realised the majority of the german population were against his jewish policy and he couldn't be as open about it. The will of the majority was sound.

what makes you think i'm talking about hitler? in any democracy, if the majority supported burning jews, without a constitution protecting them, it would happen.

alex, if the members of this board were on a desert island and we set up a pure democracy, we'd probably vote to kill you, out of sheer annoyance. if we had a constitution though, that wouldn't happen. you'd be protected.

you can nitpick my examples all day al, but the argument still stands: the inherent flaw in democracy is that the will of the majority, whether just or injust, is law. and that the solution to the problem is an extensive constitution, guaranteeing liberty, and a mechanism for protecting and enforcing it.

instead of nitpicking my examples, perhaps you could make an arugment actually countering my beliefs about democracy.

hint: that would involve the argument, "the will of the majority IS just".





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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Phred]
    #1406453 - 03/24/03 04:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Strictly speaking, Bush wasn't democratically elected.

Irrelevant to the concept being examined."

What Evolving brought up was not a concept so much as a specific case. And this fact is perfectly relevant to the case at hand because there is no evidence to show that the American people would have independently PROPOSED invading Iraq on their own if that particular idea hadn't been marketed, and marketed hard, by their own leadership. There is also no evidence that any of the other candidates would have proposed this course of action either. Hell, even Bush himself didn't make invading Iraq part of his platform at the time of the election, even though Saddam's UN compliance and weapons status were no different then than they were two years later. It's pretty clear to me that if he HAD made that a part of his platform at the time, he would have lost the election, and lost it badly.

"The populations of all of America's allies, with the possible exception of Israel, oppose this war by overwhelming margins.

Irrelevant. That is a reason for those allies to withdraw, it is not a reason for the US to withdraw. The most that can be said is that the leaders of those allies are defying the will of the majority in their respective countries. Clearly Bush is not."

Only irrelevant if you believe that the United States has no answerability whatsoever to the international community. If the United States has no answerability to the international community, then why should anybody else? And if nobody has any answerability to the international community, how can Bush argue that Saddam's flouting of UN resolutions is a legitimate casus belli? Try again, pinky.

"Approval ratings for presidents always go up during times of crisis. It's just a psychological/patriotic kind of thing.

Irrelevant. The poll was not about Bush, it was about Bush's action -- a "single issue" poll. In every poll I have seen, the percentage of those in favor of military action against Iraq has been higher than the percentage of those who approved of Bush."

The approval ratings go up not only for presidents but also for their actions and policies. The psychologal principle goes something like "in a time of crisis we need to work together; therefore, whatever we're doing, I support it." Does this logically make sense? No. Neither does much else of human psychology, but that's just the way it is.

"The success or failure of democracies is directly proportional to the intelligence and wisdom of its citizenry. In addition to providing an incentive to everyone to become as well informed and politically active as possible, democracy gives people their just desserts.

Correct. Hopefully this attempt at "democracy" that we call the United States of America will escape the historical fate of all preceding Democracies."

No, it will not escape the historical fate of all preceding Democracies. Neither will it escape the historical fate of every single nation and civilization that has ever existed--rise, flourishing, and then decline and fall. This is simply a law of nature. As Lord Acton suggested, power corrupts. This applies not only to politicians and individuals in general, but to entire societies as well. Once a nation enjoys a certain level of peace and prosperity for a certain period, complacency, arrogance, moral degeneracy, and a host of other ills sooner or later sets in. The society in question slowly begins to lose its primacy and a leaner, hungrier upstart comes in to take its place. There's no reason to believe the same won't happen to the United States--we're seeing signs of it already. And America's primacy hasn't even been that long-lived, as far as these things go.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1406731 - 03/24/03 06:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Alex123 writes:

The majority of the US didn't want a war without a second resolution.

Incorrect. The numbers were always higher with a second resolution, but still never below 50% at any time even without one. I'll ask you for a source knowing it will do no good whatsoever, but I at least made the attempt.

100 years ago all drugs were legal. Do you really think the majority just woke up one morning and "changed"? Or do you think it took decades of scare stories and propaganda to influence them?

And they remain illegal to this day. Public opinion polls show that the majority want to keep them illegal, as have the recent referenda in various states. That's the whole point of the thread, Alex. The will of the majority concept of decision making is flawed.

You can whine and moan that the majority have been "brainwashed" all you want. The whole point is that in a democracy it doesn't matter why the majority holds irrational views, all that matters is how many people vote one way or the other.

pinky


--------------------


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Anonymous

Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Phred]
    #1406776 - 03/24/03 07:07 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I suppose the good thing about arguing with certain people is that they make a great tool for pointing out things like irrelevancies, factual errors, and other logical faux pas.

Interesting topics of late but I don't think I'll be participating in them very much.

As odd as it may seem my loyalty to mycology is above the interests of any country, ideological leanings excepted of course. :wink:

Carry on.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1406779 - 03/24/03 07:09 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Are you anti-drug-war and pro-democracy?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Phred]
    #1406816 - 03/24/03 07:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The numbers were always higher with a second resolution, but still never below 50% at any time even without one

I'll take your word for it. Incidentally, they never were in the UK and we still got the war. What went wrong?

And they remain illegal to this day

Not everywhere. Portugal and other countries are relaxing their laws, Holland has legalised several drugs. The will of the majority is clearly working even in the face of massive propaganda by the minority. Don't underestimate the power of propaganda. With a media completly subservient to the rich elite you can push through some pretty extreme policies. Certainly doesn't mean the majority are for keeping drugs illegal.

Incidentally, can you explain why drugs were made illegal in the first place? Was this by the will of the majority?

The will of the majority concept of decision making is flawed.

How many people voted for George Bush? Was it a majority of the population of the US? Just curious.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Edited by Alex123 (03/24/03 07:47 PM)


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Invisiblez@z.com
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Registered: 10/13/02
Posts: 2,876
Loc: ATL
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1406822 - 03/24/03 07:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

How many people voted for George Bush? Was it a majority of the population of the US? Just curious.



No it was not a majority. This country (USA) is not a democracy thank God. (despite what you may have been told).


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: ]
    #1406825 - 03/24/03 07:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The best thing for me is seeing some people who make endless posts about how enlightened they are and yet hold childish grudges for months on end. That really is deeply amusing.  :grin: 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1407736 - 03/25/03 06:54 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

alex, i repeat:

you can nitpick my examples all day al, but the argument still stands: the inherent flaw in democracy is that the will of the majority, whether just or injust, is law. and that the solution to the problem is an extensive constitution, guaranteeing liberty, and a mechanism for protecting and enforcing it.

instead of nitpicking my examples, perhaps you could make an arugment actually countering my beliefs about democracy.

hint: that would involve the argument, "the will of the majority IS just".


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OfflineWaldarbeiter
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Registered: 03/07/02
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1407811 - 03/25/03 07:43 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Holland has legalised several drugs

they didn't legalize tha drugs, they "tolerated" them.Which is a difference.


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OfflineyelimS
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1408037 - 03/25/03 09:08 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Do you know that over 70% of the American public supports George Bush's invasion of Iraq? What's wrong with letting democracy set the policy on this?



I hope you're not fucking serious. Because AMERICANS supports this war, it's ok? If all my friends support me in killing you, it's fine then? Ask the iraqis for pete's sake.


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Offlineflow
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Registered: 11/20/02
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: yelimS]
    #1408054 - 03/25/03 09:13 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ask the iraqis for pete's sake.



do you actually think the majority of iraqi's support saddam??


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OfflineyelimS
bohem

Registered: 02/03/03
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: flow]
    #1408112 - 03/25/03 09:41 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

actually, i never said that. my point is that evolving said war was ok because someone not directly involved supports it. and i don't think that the majority of iraqi's support saddam, but i don't think they like the war an awful lot either. i haven't heard much about what the majority of iraqis think of this however... if anyone has any information on this, i'd be happy to see it... still, don't support the war because americans do, support the war (if) iraqis do. or... i don't really support the war anyway. now that they've started, it's probably best if they get to finish it, but they should've given the inspectors more time...


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: yelimS]
    #1408395 - 03/25/03 11:26 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

my point is that evolving said war was ok because someone not directly involved supports it.

Actually, I think you misinterpreted what evolving was trying to say. I think you are thinking along the same lines as he is in saying just because a majority supports it, doesn't make it right.


--------------------
Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: yelimS]
    #1411203 - 03/26/03 11:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Phluck wrote:
"Are you anti-drug-war and pro-democracy?"
I am pro-liberty (yes, this means anti-drug war).

yelimS wrote:
"my point is that evolving said war was ok..."
I never wrote that war was ok, I was asking questions, not stating a position. I am against this current war with Iraq. However, I would not be opposed to firing a .308 round (that's a 7.62 x 38 for you Europeans) into Saddam's cranium and letting the hydrostatic pressure blow his head apart.

As far as being pro-democracy... Democracy is a means of decision making, it is no guarantee that a right, moral, just, fair or wise decision will be reached, only that the decision will have majority approval. This seems to be a pretty sorry way to create a society respectful of individual rights and liberties or a society that will last any great period of time. Sooner or later, the masses will come to the realization that they can vote themselves sustenance, security, punishment for behavoir that they dislike, as well as luxuries and entertainment. Democracy will be used as a tool to act out on feelings of envy and/or moral superiority. Once this point has been reached, they will proceed to vote themselves into dire economic straits, leaving their society vulnerable to collapse, conquest and/or dictatorship.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1411418 - 03/26/03 01:12 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

As far as being pro-democracy... Democracy is a means of decision making, it is no guarantee that a right, moral, just, fair or wise decision will be reached, only that the decision will have majority approval. This seems to be a pretty sorry way to create a society respectful of individual rights and liberties or a society that will last any great period of time. Sooner or later, the masses will come to the realization that they can vote themselves sustenance, security, punishment for behavoir that they dislike, as well as luxuries and entertainment. Democracy will be used as a tool to act out on feelings of envy and/or moral superiority. Once this point has been reached, they will proceed to vote themselves into dire economic straits, leaving their society vulnerable to collapse, conquest and/or dictatorship.


So, are you anti-democracy? If so, what system do you believe is best?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineyelimS
bohem

Registered: 02/03/03
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Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1412848 - 03/27/03 12:12 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Evolving: you did write "What's wrong with letting democracy set the policy on this?" and i thought that was your way of saying you supported the war. But if you don't, I suppose all is well.. and thanks for the inch convertion, very thoughtfull :smile:


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Loc: North Carolina
Re: Are you anti-war and pro-democracy? [Re: Evolving]
    #1412857 - 03/27/03 12:19 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

i am both anti-war and pro democracy...if you don't understand how that is possible it's probably because you don't listen to people with different opinions than yours.


--------------------
Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.


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