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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3965878 -

we need to define god, and omniscience, and free will


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"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3965967 -

DoctorJ said:
yo mamma


Good answer Doc, you're a well thought out guy.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3966155 -

I still don't understand why everyone assumes that God would be bound by the rules of logic. Logic is an invention of man.

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3966173 -

I still don't understand why everyone assumes that God would be bound by the rules of logic.

Becaue there is no reason whatever to believe in any God, let alone one so fantastic as to not be bound by logic.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3966202 -

Who's this God guy? You all talk like this imaginary entity was a person, who thinks like you do.

Up the ante, and deal with nothingness.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Icelander]
    #3966230 -

Who's this God guy? You all talk like this imaginary entity was a person, who thinks like you do.

I dunno. I'm not the one saying there is such an entity. You're asking the wrong guy... try Oolon Colluphid.  :tongue:

But, if this imaginary entity possesses the quality of Omniscience, then humans do not have free will.

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3966264 -

DoctorJ said:
To them I say, "Que Lastima"- What a shame, what a waste.



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To that I say, "Eso salva" - What a shame, what a waste NOT to see things this way....  :wink:
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Las palabras de Dios significan tanto a m?....
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KungFu_Shaman said:
Sorry DoctorJ - If God exists, then Free Will cannot exist, it is logically inconsistent for there to be both Free Will and God


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In what "logical" sense do you mean....?    Your logical sense....?  :shrug:
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RandalFlagg said:
Free Will is both a great gift and a great curse that God has bestowed upon Mankind.
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It is a gift because it means that we have freedom.
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It is a curse because we are so imperfect that we cannot be expected to live up to His expectations and hopes.  He made a world that is so vile and removed from His perfection.  How can any man (no matter how strong) consistently strive for God and His Will?


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God made a perfect world with two Perfect people....  They became "Imperfect" due to the fact that there was that single choice of good and evil thru the knowledge that we all inherently have from Original Sin - If you were to believe in the Bible, and such things.... 
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It may be perceived as "vile" and "removed from his perfection" because of SOME  people's choice to act in negative "vile" ways against each other....  Choice....  Choice to act that way, and Choice to see it that way....  Do you truly see the world as "Vile" because of GOD, or because the CHOICES of MAN....?    Personally, I don't see it as "vile" at all....  This world is an absolutely BEAUTIFUL place with a hell of a lot of BEAUTIFUL people....!  Too bad more people don't CHOOSE to perceive it that way....  :wink:  :heart:
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Diploid said:
For now, I'm talking about a scenario where there are two choices, a fork in the road.
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So, given that God knows the traveler will go left:
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Question 1: Is it possible for the traveler to go right? (hint, this is a yes/no question)  :smirk:
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Question 2: If the answer to question 1 is 'yes', then what happens to God's omniscience if the traveler does, in fact, make the choice to go right? (please restrict your answer to what happens to God's omniscience only)


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It seems you *MAY* be missing are the choices that MATTER to GOD....  It matters NOT that you would be going right OR left, what matters is that you do what is "RIGHT or wrong"....  The choice for "right or left" AND "right or wrong" are BOTH up to you, as free will CHOICES....    GOD is just hoping you make the RIGHT choices in life....!  :wink:
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But, that is just my humble opinion....  Since this turned into a "Battle of Beliefs", my FULL belief is in GOD....  :wink:
As you also have the choice to believe what you want.... 
That is what makes LIFE, and YOU beautiful....  :smile:  :heart:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #3966304 -

The choice for "right or left" AND "right or wrong" are BOTH up to you, as free will CHOICES

Not if by the foreknowledge of my choice by an omniscient God I am powerless to make a different choice, thus rendering God in error.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3966329 -

GOD is in error of what....?    In error of what MAN has decided what the "Omniscient" definition is....?   
(I am not sure what that word really means, or how it relates to the Bible....)   


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #3966354 -

GOD is in error of what

If God knows I will choose to go left, and if by free will I choose to go right, then God is in error. If God is not in error, then I cannot have free will to go right. This isn't complicated.

In error of what MAN has decided what the "Omniscient" definition is

Merriam-Webster:

Omniscient
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge

If this is not the correct definition, please provide one and I'll continue the discussion using the correct definition. If you cannot provide a definition, then how can you presume to post anything at all regarding the subject?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3966427 -



If God knows I will choose to go left, and if by free will I choose to go right, then God is in error. If God is not in error, then I cannot have free will to go right. This isn't complicated.

but you did'nt go left, you went right,,no? God never knew you would go left, because you ultimatly did'nt, you went right, how can God KNOW you will go left if you don't go left but go right?


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hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: JCoke]
    #3966447 -

but you did'nt go left, you went right,,no?

The issue is whether or not I could choose opposite what God knows.

If I CANNOT make that choice because God already knows I will not, then it follows that I do not have the free will to do so.

If I CAN and do make that choice, then it follows that God was wrong.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3966463 -

Diploid said:
but you did'nt go left, you went right,,no?

The issue is whether or not I could choose opposite what God knows.

If I CANNOT make that choice because God already knows I will not, then it follows that I do not have the free will to do so.

If I CAN and do make that choice, then it follows that God was wrong.


ooooooh, in that case the answer is simple, we don't have free will.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: JCoke]
    #3966482 -

...and that's free will defined as "the ultimate choice above the ultimate all knowing.",, what we do got is enough room to decide, left or right, but free will, no, but freedom to choose, yes.


--------------------
hello, your name is life on earth
------------------------------------

"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3966512 -

Diploid said:
GOD is in error of what
.
If God knows I will choose to go left, and if by free will I choose to go right, then God is in error. If God is not in error, then I cannot have free will to go right. This isn't complicated.
.
In error of what MAN has decided what the "Omniscient" definition is
.
Merriam-Webster:
Omniscient
1 : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2 : possessed of universal or complete knowledge
.
If this is not the correct definition, please provide one and I'll continue the discussion using the correct definition. If you cannot provide a definition, then how can you presume to post anything at all regarding the subject?


.
OK, lets go by that definition....  I would assume that GOD also created time since he created everything else, and could go ahead and see what choice you will choose to make - as he would also be able to manipulate his perception of time as well....  It doesn't mean that he made any decisions for you....    It means you have free will to do what you want, he just knows what your choice will be....  :shrug: 
.
This doesn't seem that complicated either....!    :lol:  :heart: 


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #3967632 -

"We are not bound to do what God knows, God knows what we are bound to do."

The way you see it is very limited and unnecessarily complicated. I think you need to open up because I have been telling you the same thing in different ways and yet you are unable to grasp the meaning behind my words.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3967777 -

I believe that Diploid is correct: If God is omniscient, then we do not have free will.

The reason for this conclusion is that omniscience is a knowing about what is or has already come to pass. You can not "know" about something that may or may not be the case. One can only know about what already has come to pass. Knowing requires being.

This is where our free-will gets in trouble with God's all-knowing (or any other all-knowing of any kind). God can only all-know that which already-is. And since free-will implies what might be or might come to pass, that is, a possibility (not a fact), all-knowing and free-will do not get-along at all.

One can "know" a fact. One can not "know" a possibility (or at least not the outcome of a possibility). Free will is the very possibility of human choice. :heart:

That's the best I can do this afternoon. Have a nice weekend. :smile:

And by the way, without the rules of logic, nothing makes any sense. Not-making-sense can be fun for a time but it can be hazardous to one's health and longevity... or not: Stop Making Sense

I guess we have a choice. Choose either an ALL-KNOWING God or FREE-WILL or an UN-ALL-KNOWING God. An UN-ALL-KNOWING God might have room for FREE-WILL. But then an UN-ALL-KNOWING God would by necessity be IGNORANT about some things some of the time and this SOMETIMES-IGNORANT God goes against the notion of what a GOD should be. There might be another God somewhere in the universe that was ALL-KNOWING and that God could maybe come and kick the SOMETIMES-IGNORANT God's ass. And who wants their God getting his ass kicked? No one, that's who (or at least not many or near enough :tongue: ).


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Seek not to rationalize hobgoblins. ~ Yeats

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Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: hobgoblin]
    #3967868 -

You see God as separate from you, as a finite entity. From that perspective it is impossible to understand my arguments since God is absolute, God is infinite. Time & space are irrelevant.

Can't you see that omniscience and omnipresence must be qualities of the absolute? There is nothing beyond the absolute, nothing beyond its reach. It is impossible to choose beyond infinite possibilities.

For all of you who think that omniscience of the absolute contradicts free will this is impossible and I rest my case.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar

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