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The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity
    #6144564 -

The gospel means "good news" of the grace of God. The term grace is very precisely defined in scripture. Many attempts are made by the false minions of darkness to pervert and destroy the truth of what the term actually means.

Firstly the bible is the Word of God, infallible, inerrant, preserved by providence, written as God the Holy Spirit moved men to write it. It is the source of all doctrine, not councils of men, synods, or great teachers or even personal experiences.

All doctrine is derived from scripture as the sole authority. Jesus Christ reconciled His people from their sins. It is an effectual atonement that applies to particular persons, who were named from before the world was created, that they may receive every spiritual blessing. Christ died for them and reconciles them, they are called by the Holy Spirit and hear the Word of truth of the gospel, are convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment by the Spirit as it applies the Word to their minds and hearts. The good news is that despite the fact they have no redeeming value, and are completely unrighteous at the very core of their hearts, Christ delivers them, this is the good news. God Himself puts a new heart in them and makes them a new creation. All to the praise of the glory of His grace, no other reason!

Man is born in a state of total spiritual depravity and death due to the Fall. All are born condemned as a result of the first transgression. Natural man can not understand spiritual things at all. Only the power of God can translate a dead sinner from a state of darkness to light. The sinner can not understand the righteousness of God, this is what the gospel reveals, God's righteousness. Any form of unrighteousness is evidence that the person is inherently unrighteous. The only one with perfect righteousness is Christ, who was spotless and without any unrighteousness. The sins of His people were imputed to His account, and He bore God's wrath, thus satisfying justice, and imputing His righteousness to their accounts. In time by faith this perfect imputed righteousness is revealed to His people, and they are converted.

A converted person immediately understands the ground of justification to be Christ's righteousness ALONE, and man's merits have NOTHING whatsoever to do with justification.

Many attempts are made by false teachers to say that man must cooperate with grace, and grace plus personal merits eventually justifies a person. They usually assert that the atonement was universal, making reconciliation possible if man performs some duty (such as becoming baptized, performing sacraments, making a decision for Christ, repenting, leading a holy life, ect..). This subtle twisting creates another Jesus and another God. It is justification by works of the law. No flesh is ever justified by such a "gospel". This is not the gospel that gets revealed in the hearts of the converted. If you believe this, you are currently unregenerate, no matter how many great experiences you may of had, or how many teachers have told you this "gospel". It simply is a LIE, and I urge you to repent of it and believe God's testimony as revealed in the scriptures.

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6144668 -

It's not that people are naturally evil. It's that they are naturally ignorant(see: your posts). Christ was an enlightened tzaddik who came to save us from ignorance of our true nature. Liberation comes not through faith or works, but by gnosis.



/waits for ignorant ranting about how I'm a heretic and an anti-Christ, followed by out-of-context Bible quotes


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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Silversoul]
    #6144746 -

Quote:
Man is born in a state of total spiritual depravity and death due to the Fall. All are born condemned as a result of the first transgression. Natural man can not understand spiritual things at all. Only the power of God can translate a dead sinner from a state of darkness to light.


I hear christians often say things like this. It is kind of like telling a person, "your going to lose the race anyway, so there is no point in even trying".... I find that kind of preemptive suppression suspect as well as annoying.

Please refrain from telling myself and others what our spiritual comprehension and boundaries are.

Televangelists do more than Lay people!

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6144805 -

I think 'God' has more of a sense of humor than you give 'Him' credit for... :smirk:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6145904 -

Im sorry fivepointer, but the bible is not some sacredly preserved scripture, it has in fact been tampered with and rewritten by many people. Many Gospels were totally left out, for political reasons and it most certainly isnt the source of all doctrine. In fact the bible borrowed many themes, such as the ten commandments, from egyptian sources and scripture, and even the stories of jesus are seen throughout many religions and traditions that predate the bible by centuries.

A side note: becomming fanatical and fundamental in view about anything is bad news.


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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Silversoul]
    #6145960 -

Silversoul said:
It's not that people are naturally evil. It's that they are naturally ignorant(see: your posts). Christ was an enlightened tzaddik who came to save us from ignorance of our true nature. Liberation comes not through faith or works, but by gnosis.

/waits for ignorant ranting about how I'm a heretic and an anti-Christ, followed by out-of-context Bible quotes


Scripture is very clear, fallen man IS naturally evil. This is why God must put a new heart in, and take the stoney heart out, of those He saves. Man is born into the kingdom of darkness, and must be born from above in order to understand any spiritual truth at all.

I would quote scripture, but you despise God's Word, and would only trample it under your feet and mock it.

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6145965 -

"Man is born in a state of total spiritual depravity and death due to the Fall. All are born condemned as a result of the first transgression."

This attitude could have devastating consequences on a person's psychological state. This bit of Christian programming is where the social attitude that we are not good enough originates. If God is perfect it would follow that man would have been made perfect. The notion that we could do anything other than God's will is ridiculous. By buying into this bit of illogical bullshit Christians attempt to preserve the attitude that God is perfect by blaming all of mankinds ills on man, but if God is perfect then he made us perfect as well. In truth we are perfect. We need no redemption. The promise of rebirth and change is with us every day. Every moment we are reborn as different people. Every decision we make offers redemption from self inflicted pain. We don't need to get it from God....we were born with it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6145968 -

Sinbad said:
Im sorry fivepointer, but the bible is not some sacredly preserved scripture, it has in fact been tampered with and rewritten by many people. Many Gospels were totally left out, for political reasons and it most certainly isnt the source of all doctrine. In fact the bible borrowed many themes, such as the ten commandments, from egyptian sources and scripture, and even the stories of jesus are seen throughout many religions and traditions that predate the bible by centuries.

A side note: becomming fanatical and fundamental in view about anything is bad news.


Sorry Sinbad, the Bible is the Word of God. Take your attacks on it back to the pits of darkness.

A side note: You have a fanatical belief in unbelief, for if you believe in something, then you must be a "fanatic" about something. Since belief consists of believing certain things that are considered truth, then what you are really saying is you have a "fanatical" belief in nothing.

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6145992 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Man is born in a state of total spiritual depravity and death due to the Fall. All are born condemned as a result of the first transgression."

This attitude could have devastating consequences on a person's psychological state. This bit of Christian programming is where the social attitude that we are not good enough originates. If God is perfect it would follow that man would have been made perfect. The notion that we could do anything other than God's will is ridiculous. By buying into this bit of illogical bullshit Christians attempt to preserve the attitude that God is perfect by blaming all of mankinds ills on man, but if God is perfect then he made us perfect as well. In truth we are perfect. We need no redemption. The promise of rebirth and change is with us every day. Every moment we are reborn as different people. Every decision we make offers redemption from self inflicted pain. We don't need to get it from God....we were born with it.


Man was made in God's image and very good. However the Fall drastically changed man's nature and spiritual death happened as a result. When people are told they are spiritually dead they can't see it, they are blind to their own depraved state. It take the power of the Holy Spirit to show a person who they really are, depraved ruined sinners in need of redemption. If you have never been convicted of sinnership, then you have no need of redemption. Jesus came for sinners. Man can not of himself convict himself of sinnership, but this is the work of God directly on the soul. Jesus will save His people from their sins, nothing will thwart His plan to save each and every one for whom He came to save.

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6145997 -

"Man was made in God's image and very good. However the Fall drastically changed man's nature and spiritual death happened as a result. When people are told they are spiritually dead they can't see it, they are blind to their own depraved state."

Man being already perfect needs no redemption except from propoganda like yours. The ideas that you are espousing are dysfunctional.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6146040 -

Indeed, we were made in gods image, and if god is perfect, then we must also be of this same nature. Imperfection cannot arise out of perfection, this is a logical fact. It is only ignorance of our true nature, our divine perfection, that compells us to act in a sinful manner.


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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6146049 -

Sinbad said:
Indeed, we were made in gods image, and if god is perfect, then we must also be of this same nature. Imperfection cannot arise out of perfection, this is a logical fact. It is only ignorance of our true nature, our divine perfection, that compells us to act in a sinful manner.


Indeed. Ignorance is the original sin.


--------------------

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6146051 -

fivepointer said:
Sinbad said:
Im sorry fivepointer, but the bible is not some sacredly preserved scripture, it has in fact been tampered with and rewritten by many people. Many Gospels were totally left out, for political reasons and it most certainly isnt the source of all doctrine. In fact the bible borrowed many themes, such as the ten commandments, from egyptian sources and scripture, and even the stories of jesus are seen throughout many religions and traditions that predate the bible by centuries.

A side note: becomming fanatical and fundamental in view about anything is bad news.


Sorry Sinbad, the Bible is the Word of God.  Take your attacks on it back to the pits of darkness. 

A side note: You have a fanatical belief in unbelief, for if you believe in something, then you must be a "fanatic" about something. Since belief consists of believing certain things that are considered truth, then what you are really saying is you have a "fanatical" belief in nothing.


I attacked nothing. If you study your religions historical facts, then you may discover some real knowledge that will help you to separate the useful, applicable Christian concepts from the useless dogma.

Fanatical belief is never good, as it blinds one from seeing all sides of a situation. Your response is the typical knee-jerk reaction of someone who has a very narrow view that sees all ideas that are contrary to your fanatical belief structure as "the devil".

Its very sad. Extremists suffer emotionally and spiritually more than any other.  :sad: :heart:


--------------------

Edited by Sinbad (10/08/06 09:07 AM)

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6146141 -

this place of free ideas can be healing to people who have had the book pounded into them for years, but the process is slow, and they must want to be released from the patriarchical-book-aterianism, at least a little bit.

usually it is tangled up with an oedipus complex, and the whole replace thy father complex.

it becomes very hard to let one's father be who he is and to let oneself be who one is. but this might be a good forum in which to start.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6146192 -

redgreenvines said:
this place of free ideas can be healing to people who have had the book pounded into them for years, but the process is slow, and they must want to be released from the patriarchical-book-aterianism, at least a little bit.

usually it is tangled up with an oedipus complex, and the whole replace thy father complex.

it becomes very hard to let one's father be who he is and to let oneself be who one is. but this might be a good forum in which to start.


Just for the record I never had the "book pounded into me for years". I was reared with no religion at all. I was a die hard agnostic for 35 years. Before my conversion I despised Christians as kooks and fools who are deluded. But the truth of the gospel came in power and Spirit applied it to my heart.

I also think that the true gospel of sovereign grace is not being taught in any churches today. The few so called sovereign grace churches all teach that a man can remain in a works gospel AFTER conversion. This shows they themselves have no understanding of the true gospel. It is a very dark time for the true gospel.

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6146222 -

I was a die hard agnostic for 35 years

Like a pendulum you swing from one extreme to another. You will never find the solid ground you are looking for. It doesn't exist IMO. You need to find a way to let go of your attachment and surrender to the natural flow of chaos. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6146343 -

Icelander said:
I was a die hard agnostic for 35 years

Like a pendulum you swing from one extreme to another. You will never find the solid ground you are looking for. It doesn't exist IMO. You need to find a way to let go of your attachment and surrender to the natural flow of chaos. :wink:


Indeed! Only then can the true order of things manifest out of the chaos like an illusory fractal pattern.  :wink:


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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6146354 -

:wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6146425 -

Actually the intent of the bible is for fundamental belief, but specifically the gospels, sense they are suppose to be the truest and most authentic eyewitness accounts, as much of the gospels were weeded out because they were considered heresy,

Gnostic scriptures were inspired to this day by the same motivations in mind, such as Jesus's other life events which was basically inspired by fictional writing with a different intent in mind other than documenting historical accounts of Jesus's life. I think that all accounts were considered heresy by some so they wanted to get on the act, sense the Jews like the prestige that came with being well rounded more spiritually developed than say the rest of the simpletons, and any attack on their divine knowledge would be treated as undermining the true intent of why the gospels were created in the first place. This undermines the fundamentalist view in which the gospels aren't written as anything other than documenting actual life events. Yes the bible is also much inspired with a fiction inner knowing, and more to do with fantasy and occultism such as the book of revelations.

The intent of the gospels true or false was not to be looked at this way. Research of the historical Jesus has been partaken to uncover the mystery behind these issues, but I doubt any real solid evidence will ever be revealed to convince anyone of what actual grounds or claims the gospels hold.

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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6146431 -

All that and so much/little more.  :tongue: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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