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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391310 - 03/12/06 10:41 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
SUBJECT OT Prophecy NT Fulfillment
As the Son of God Ps 2:7 Lu 1:32,35




Ps 2:7:
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
      He said to me, "You are my Son;
      today I have become your Father.

Lu 1:32,35
32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,

35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God..





Quote:

fivepointer said:
SUBJECT OT Prophecy NT Fulfillment
As the seed of the woman Ge 3:15 Ga 4:4




Ge 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
      between you and the woman,
      and between your offspring and hers;
      he will crush your head,
      and you will strike his heel."

Ga 4:4
4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law





Same thing. Very vauge quotes that do not specify anything, "fufilled" by more vauge quotations. A simple phrase such as "I am the Lord, and today I have become your father" is not a prophecy. It does not predict an event. It does not identify something that is to happen.

Anyone who can explain the link between the fifteenth verse of the third chapter of Genesis and that of the fourth verse of the fourth chapter of Galatians can step right up and testify. I am completely baffled by this "prophecy". :wtf:

I will not persist in providing more verses to illustrate my point as I actually have more important things to do, like breakfast, first and foremost. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Silversoul]
    #5391357 - 03/12/06 11:15 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Recent Biblical scholarship is coming to certain conclusions, including the mythic character of a majority of our beloved Biblical characters. Freke's & Gandy's series of books on Gnostic Christianity cites copious references, which, upon follow-up, refer one to web-cites, books and professional papers. The information has been glossed over for so long because - as is evident from the emotional tenor of your own response - it comes as a shock and with a strong unwillingness to let go of life-long assumptions. Like Neo after he took the Red Pill - "He's gonna pop!" - and then he retched.

One of the issues that I've been aware of goes back to 1974 when Egyptologist Bob Brier (of TLC and Mummy-making fame), then, my professor, told me that there simply was no archeological evidence to support any large scale Hebrew enslavement in, and exodus from Egypt. Hebrew writings of late, subjected to more rigorous scrutiny than ever before, are finally appearing in the same mythic light that say, the Bhagavad Gita appears in. Hindus never expect anyone to believe in a historicity in their stories.

There is no evidence, for example, that there was a town of Nazareth at the time that Jesus was supposed to have been born. There were Nazarenes - a particular religious sect, and there may have been a corruption of terms by the authors. In fact, there seems to be a great deal of ignorance and confusion in geographical descriptions of the wanderings of Jesus according to the Bible. 'Magdalene' may refer to a certain 'tower,' location of which was Ethiopia, according to recent scholarship. Holy s**t Mary called Magdalene might have been an Black woman! Some Ethiopians do have long wavy hair, if that incident with the expensive ointment (parenthetically, 'spikenard,' imported from India where it was used in sacred Tantric sexual practices) comes to mind - wiping Jesus' feet with hair and tears.

Early depictions of Jesus in the Roman catacombs has Him beardless, short-haired and garbed in a Roman tunic. No long-haired hippy. The imagery sometimes fuses with one of the 'other' god-men - Dionysus [god of Nyssus]: grapes, wine, bread, woman followers, dismembered (as was Jesus cloak, symbolically) died, resurrected, born on December 25th - Dionysus. But I wildly digress, sorry about that. Sometimes the new data that I've downloaded into my psyche gives rise to a great need to shout loudly "Awaken!, Awaken! from our unconscious assumptions! We've all been deceived, guilted, shamed,  LIED to!!!!" :eek:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


Edited by MarkostheGnostic (03/12/06 11:32 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391376 - 03/12/06 11:28 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"...paint those who do not agree with you" ? wtf?

The love in me is the love of Truth, and Truth is synonymous with Reality. I despise the LIE, and I detest being lied to. So do you. So, if and when YOU come to the same type of Realization about the LIE that spawned those doctrines that you are so protective of, you will share my perspective. Truth is Real, and it is One. There is no doubt about that. Try doubting the written formulations of Truth. Be like Neo awakening from The Matrix (a modern Gnostic myth). It'll make you retch too, then you'll become angry, then you'll re-structure your own mind around the One Truth, the One Reality, the One God that gives life to our mind.

Truth=Reality=God


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5391472 - 03/12/06 12:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

To fireworks_god:

I mentioned that I did not go through each verse that I posted in the list and i found it on a web site, so undoubtedly some probably should have been removed. However the vast majority of the verses appear good. And many are very specific.

The reason you will not accept the truth is that you would have to subject yourself to what it says. Pure hardness of heart is why you reject God's testimony.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391487 - 03/12/06 12:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Marcos,

Swallow the red pill, the Bible is THE WORD OF GOD.

I know this is shocking, let go of life-long assumptions, Marcos.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391595 - 03/12/06 01:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
fireworks_god writes:
Biblical quotes do not pertain to anything evidenced in reality.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Satan quotes scripture:
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus answers with scripture:
Mt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Jesus quotes from scripture many times showing that it is indeed the Word of God.




Using excerpts from the scripture to prove the scripture is the word of God? That's not good form at all. Perhaps I should write a book, and in my reference section, just reference back to certain pages in the book. I'm sure that would fly, right?


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391620 - 03/12/06 01:21 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

My present assumptions are correct. I already let go of my life-long assumptions. You are free to call the Bible whatever you wish, but you are suffering under a great lie - more so, in effect, than the Jews-under-the-Law were supposed to be according to the early Christians. It is the same drama being recapitualted in your own life. You will not awaken; have your bubble burst, until you can handle it. Perhaps in your next lifetime, or the one after that  :smirk:.

Have you ever 'awakened' from a dream, only to find yourself in yet another dream, and then believed that you had 'finally' awakened from sleep - but find yourself in a third dream? I have, and this kind of experience on the dream/astral level of life is a teaching. The teaching applies as well to 'waking life.' That which you believe may well apply to you - a 'Psychic' Christian from my perspective. It does not apply to me. I have another interpretation of the same words that you read which apply with 'greater fit' to who (and more importantly) 'what' I am as a human being.

Do you know that among hypnotized individuals, some can be given 'glove anaesthesia' (a simple thing - it numbs the skin of the hand) and then told: 'I will touch your hand with a piece of red-hot metal, but you will feel no pain.' Instead, the hypnotist will touch the subject's hand with a pencil eraser. In about 3% of the hypnotized subjects, the next day, a water blister will appear at the place where the pencil eraser touched the hand! There was never any red hot metal, just a tiny piece of pink rubber, yet belief - a psychic state - manifested the expected result on the body. 'Holy stigmata' works this way too (especially inasmuch as crucifieds were nailed at the base of the hand through the wrist bones, which held the nail, whilst the palm of the hand just rips through. Yet Christian art, based on dissonance between the Biblical word 'palm' [e.g., Mel Gibson's film] and the actual historical practice has led to bleeding palms).

There is much in life to help one toward a truer understanding of Biblical concepts, but IF you are an individual who believes that the Earth and universe is less than 6000 years old by our standard calendar, then I cannot have any further dialogue with you. You immediately become relegated to one suffering delusional thinking on all levels, from the empirical to the spiritual. If that is the case, I am sad because you seem ardent in your search for certainty and meaning in life, and I understand holding unbendingly to certain doctrines, but rest assured - this too shall pass.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5391723 - 03/12/06 02:03 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

As usual Marcos produces psycho-babble dribble.

You need to repent of your Gnostic heresies and believe God's Word.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391728 - 03/12/06 02:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps you should relax with the personal attacks and attempt to debate the topic at hand.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Redstorm]
    #5391738 - 03/12/06 02:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps you should relax with the personal attacks and attempt to debate the topic at hand.

Marcos never debates the topic, why don't you admonish him?

I merely state the fact, that in my opinion, he posts psycho-babble laced with damnable heresies of Gnosticism.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391743 - 03/12/06 02:12 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

You both need to cut it out. It doesn't impress anyone.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391750 - 03/12/06 02:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

His words come from faith in reason. Your reasonings stem from faith in words.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5391791 - 03/12/06 02:25 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Markos, I too have read Freke and Gandy, and find their scholarship to be rather lacking(as do most scholars, apparently). Their references are mostly obscure and impossible to find, and they frequently quote out of context. As for the Hebrews, the earliest known reference to them is an Egyptian wall carving depicting a group of nomads wandering the desert(for 40 years, perhaps?). Do you think it might be possible that they didn't have a recognizable identity before then? The Egyptians obviously would not have recorded them as Hebrews. They would simply be slaves to them. As for Nazareth, there is a historical reference to such a village as early as 200 AD. The fact that the Bible is used by archaeologists to find sites to excavate shows that it is much more than simply mythology.


--------------------


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391867 - 03/12/06 02:49 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"If Scripture is just the words of men, then how do you explain the fact that all the OT prophesy was EXACTLY fulfilled?"

God LORD man! The New Testament writings were written exactly to that end - to complete the Old Testament prophesies and to ground the New tradition in ancient writings!!!! Has this never dawned on you as a possibility?

"Is it possible that when we stare into the absurdity of some of our common assumptions about the Bible, we might begin to suspect that we have imposed on these sacred texts a strange and foreign agenda? Would it not have seemed obvious to someone ever to ask whether this was the way that the Jewish people wrote or interpreted their sacred stories? Few gentiles there were, however who, in the arrogance of their power and in the dominance of their religious certainty, ever stopped to consider this or any other possibility that might challenge the deeply imposed version of Christian wisdom. So it was that this distorting, prejudiced, unquestioning anti-Jewish attitude that created this gentile captivity of the Gospels went on unchallenged for centuries. The price that Christians paid because of this captivity was the loss of the essential meaning of the Gospels. For the truth found in the Gospels could be revealled only by reading these texts through a Jewish lens. The Jewish lens, however, remained hidden for centuries....

In a deep and significant way, we are now able to see that all of the Gospels are Jewish books, profoundly Jewish books. Recognizing this, we begin to face the realization that we will never understand the Gospels until we learn how to read them as Jewish books. They are written, to a greater or lesser degree, in the midrashic style of the Jewish sacred storyteller, a style that most of us do not begin even now to comprehend. This style is not concerned with historic accuracy. It is concerned with meaning and understanding....

If we are to recover the power present in the scriptures for our time, then this clue to their meaning must be recovered and understood. Ascribing to the Gospels historic accuracy in the style of later historians, or demanding that the narratives of the Gospels be taken literally, or trying to recreate the historical context surrounding each specific event narrated in the Gospels - these are the methods of people who do not realize that they are reading a Jewish book...

But before we can fully address this issue and begin to read the Gospels as Jewish books, we must cast our gaze on the early history of the Christian movement to seek to understand where things went wrong. What were the forces of history that collaborated to tear the Christian church away from its Jewish origins? If we are ever to find our way back to the Jewish perspective that produced our Gospels, then we must understand how that perspective was first broken, then denied, and then lost. It was not an accident."

- from Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes by John Shelby Spong


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391920 - 03/12/06 03:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Firstly, stop the juvenile name-calling. Are you a child?
Secondly, "Psycho-babble" in common vernacular, is a term that is supposed to indicate nonsense comprised of techical jargon belonging to psychology.
If your word "dribble" is supossed to mean 'drivel,' which means "to talk or utter stupidly, carelessly, or in an infantile way," then you are simply wrong as well as childlessly name-calling.

My hypnosis example belongs to a research study cited in 'Hypnosis and Psychophysiological Outcomes,' Theodore R. Sarbin and Robert W. Slagle, in the book Hypnosis: Developments in Research and Perspectives, by Erika Fromm and Ronald E. Shore, 1979, p.284

Classical debates in Christian theology were called 'apologias' in the past. Sometimes humor was employed, sometimes sarcasm, but not childish name-calling. Tertullian - the Church Father who first introduced the word 'Trinity' - eventually left his Literalist stance and became a Gnostic in the school of Montanus. He too was called a heretic, and like other so-called declared heretics, he was a brilliant theologian. By including me among those who were condemned for their oftimes superior understanding of things spiritual, I am indeed honored. By assuming that I am 'damned' by God simply tells the readers here that you must somehow 'Be' God - which is exactly what I have been saying as well. Only in your case, you are confusing your own ego with the Presence of God that suffuses all of us.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5391930 - 03/12/06 03:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Do you have anything else to say on the data I provided you, fivepointer? I don't know if it's going to be worth continuing on the subject here, but if you're going to retort then you have to do so by looking within the information, not running away from the argument by dumping a whole new set of versus down. Those can be thoroughly gone through just like your first set, but finish with one before you go on to the other. As fireworks said, simply providing a list of versus is not the same as showing that your understanding of those versus is correct.

If you care about the truth of these words, then go back to the last data I gave you and tell me what you now think. If you've going to refute then you'll need to do so with reason and evidence that the words mean what you claim. If your theory can't be backed up then it's false. I haven't left any piece unexamined from the Luke passage, so maybe you just need to grow your understanding.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Silversoul]
    #5392002 - 03/12/06 03:44 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It's a good point you bring up about Hebrew identity from the point of the Egyptians. I am reading Moses and Akhenaton: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus by Ahmed Osman. I haven't gotten very far into it (finishing Jesus and the Lost Goddess and a couple of other books), but the author makes the extravagant claim that Moses WAS Akhenaten - forced to abdicate his throne for the very unpopular doctrine of One God.

"Osman reveals the Egyptian components in the monotheism preached by Moses as well as his use of Egyptian royal ritual and Egyptian religious expression. He shows that even the Ten Commandments reveal the direct influence of Spell 125 in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Moses and Akhenaton provides a radical challenge to long-standing beliefs concerning the origin of Semitic religion and the puzzle of Akhenaton's deviation from ancient Egyptian tradition. In fact, if Osman's contentions are correct, many of the major Old Testament figures are of Egyptian origin."
- From the back cover


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5392014 - 03/12/06 03:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Marcos writes:
By assuming that I am 'damned' by God simply tells the readers here that you must somehow 'Be' God - which is exactly what I have been saying as well.

I am not saying that you are damned by God. For all I know you may be one of God's elect. I am saying you are currently unregenerate. All regenerate people believe the "gospel", which is a term used to describe the essential doctrines of the person and work of Christ.

Christians are called to fellowship with other believers, therefore they know what constitutes what a believer is and is not. Belief always contains doctrine. The doctrines you declare are not doctrines that a Christian would believe. Knowledge of doctrine does not save a person, but doctrine is an immediate fruit shown in conversion. Everyone who is saved believes the same gospel immediately upon conversion. You have been admonished several times and refuse to repent and believe. The only reason I continue to dialog with you is because this is a public forum and others read these postings, so they are being instructed against the heresies you are proclaiming.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5392165 - 03/12/06 04:46 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Does god look like a hairly ape, fivepointer?



If we were created in his image, he must!


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: psyka]
    #5392190 - 03/12/06 04:53 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That dude lives next door, why didn't he ever tell me he was God? Uh oh, I was macking on his wife too! Fire and brimstone fer me  :shocked:


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