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Offlinefivepointer
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The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity
    #6144564 - 10/07/06 09:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The gospel means "good news" of the grace of God. The term grace is very precisely defined in scripture. Many attempts are made by the false minions of darkness to pervert and destroy the truth of what the term actually means.

Firstly the bible is the Word of God, infallible, inerrant, preserved by providence, written as God the Holy Spirit moved men to write it. It is the source of all doctrine, not councils of men, synods, or great teachers or even personal experiences.

All doctrine is derived from scripture as the sole authority. Jesus Christ reconciled His people from their sins. It is an effectual atonement that applies to particular persons, who were named from before the world was created, that they may receive every spiritual blessing. Christ died for them and reconciles them, they are called by the Holy Spirit and hear the Word of truth of the gospel, are convicted of sin, righteousness and judgment by the Spirit as it applies the Word to their minds and hearts. The good news is that despite the fact they have no redeeming value, and are completely unrighteous at the very core of their hearts, Christ delivers them, this is the good news. God Himself puts a new heart in them and makes them a new creation. All to the praise of the glory of His grace, no other reason!

Man is born in a state of total spiritual depravity and death due to the Fall. All are born condemned as a result of the first transgression. Natural man can not understand spiritual things at all. Only the power of God can translate a dead sinner from a state of darkness to light. The sinner can not understand the righteousness of God, this is what the gospel reveals, God's righteousness. Any form of unrighteousness is evidence that the person is inherently unrighteous. The only one with perfect righteousness is Christ, who was spotless and without any unrighteousness. The sins of His people were imputed to His account, and He bore God's wrath, thus satisfying justice, and imputing His righteousness to their accounts. In time by faith this perfect imputed righteousness is revealed to His people, and they are converted.

A converted person immediately understands the ground of justification to be Christ's righteousness ALONE, and man's merits have NOTHING whatsoever to do with justification.

Many attempts are made by false teachers to say that man must cooperate with grace, and grace plus personal merits eventually justifies a person. They usually assert that the atonement was universal, making reconciliation possible if man performs some duty (such as becoming baptized, performing sacraments, making a decision for Christ, repenting, leading a holy life, ect..). This subtle twisting creates another Jesus and another God. It is justification by works of the law. No flesh is ever justified by such a "gospel". This is not the gospel that gets revealed in the hearts of the converted. If you believe this, you are currently unregenerate, no matter how many great experiences you may of had, or how many teachers have told you this "gospel". It simply is a LIE, and I urge you to repent of it and believe God's testimony as revealed in the scriptures.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6144668 - 10/07/06 10:38 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

It's not that people are naturally evil. It's that they are naturally ignorant(see: your posts). Christ was an enlightened tzaddik who came to save us from ignorance of our true nature. Liberation comes not through faith or works, but by gnosis.



/waits for ignorant ranting about how I'm a heretic and an anti-Christ, followed by out-of-context Bible quotes


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Silversoul]
    #6144746 - 10/07/06 11:02 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Man is born in a state of total spiritual depravity and death due to the Fall. All are born condemned as a result of the first transgression. Natural man can not understand spiritual things at all. Only the power of God can translate a dead sinner from a state of darkness to light.




I hear christians often say things like this. It is kind of like telling a person, "your going to lose the race anyway, so there is no point in even trying".... I find that kind of preemptive suppression suspect as well as annoying.

Please refrain from telling myself and others what our spiritual comprehension and boundaries are.

Televangelists do more than Lay people!


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OfflineLion
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6144805 - 10/07/06 11:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I think 'God' has more of a sense of humor than you give 'Him' credit for... :smirk:


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6145904 - 10/08/06 08:05 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Im sorry fivepointer, but the bible is not some sacredly preserved scripture, it has in fact been tampered with and rewritten by many people. Many Gospels were totally left out, for political reasons and it most certainly isnt the source of all doctrine. In fact the bible borrowed many themes, such as the ten commandments, from egyptian sources and scripture, and even the stories of jesus are seen throughout many religions and traditions that predate the bible by centuries.

A side note: becomming fanatical and fundamental in view about anything is bad news.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Silversoul]
    #6145960 - 10/08/06 09:19 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
It's not that people are naturally evil. It's that they are naturally ignorant(see: your posts). Christ was an enlightened tzaddik who came to save us from ignorance of our true nature. Liberation comes not through faith or works, but by gnosis.

/waits for ignorant ranting about how I'm a heretic and an anti-Christ, followed by out-of-context Bible quotes




Scripture is very clear, fallen man IS naturally evil. This is why God must put a new heart in, and take the stoney heart out, of those He saves. Man is born into the kingdom of darkness, and must be born from above in order to understand any spiritual truth at all.

I would quote scripture, but you despise God's Word, and would only trample it under your feet and mock it.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6145965 - 10/08/06 09:33 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"Man is born in a state of total spiritual depravity and death due to the Fall. All are born condemned as a result of the first transgression."

This attitude could have devastating consequences on a person's psychological state. This bit of Christian programming is where the social attitude that we are not good enough originates. If God is perfect it would follow that man would have been made perfect. The notion that we could do anything other than God's will is ridiculous. By buying into this bit of illogical bullshit Christians attempt to preserve the attitude that God is perfect by blaming all of mankinds ills on man, but if God is perfect then he made us perfect as well. In truth we are perfect. We need no redemption. The promise of rebirth and change is with us every day. Every moment we are reborn as different people. Every decision we make offers redemption from self inflicted pain. We don't need to get it from God....we were born with it.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6145968 - 10/08/06 09:36 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Im sorry fivepointer, but the bible is not some sacredly preserved scripture, it has in fact been tampered with and rewritten by many people. Many Gospels were totally left out, for political reasons and it most certainly isnt the source of all doctrine. In fact the bible borrowed many themes, such as the ten commandments, from egyptian sources and scripture, and even the stories of jesus are seen throughout many religions and traditions that predate the bible by centuries.

A side note: becomming fanatical and fundamental in view about anything is bad news.




Sorry Sinbad, the Bible is the Word of God. Take your attacks on it back to the pits of darkness.

A side note: You have a fanatical belief in unbelief, for if you believe in something, then you must be a "fanatic" about something. Since belief consists of believing certain things that are considered truth, then what you are really saying is you have a "fanatical" belief in nothing.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6145992 - 10/08/06 09:56 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Man is born in a state of total spiritual depravity and death due to the Fall. All are born condemned as a result of the first transgression."

This attitude could have devastating consequences on a person's psychological state. This bit of Christian programming is where the social attitude that we are not good enough originates. If God is perfect it would follow that man would have been made perfect. The notion that we could do anything other than God's will is ridiculous. By buying into this bit of illogical bullshit Christians attempt to preserve the attitude that God is perfect by blaming all of mankinds ills on man, but if God is perfect then he made us perfect as well. In truth we are perfect. We need no redemption. The promise of rebirth and change is with us every day. Every moment we are reborn as different people. Every decision we make offers redemption from self inflicted pain. We don't need to get it from God....we were born with it.




Man was made in God's image and very good. However the Fall drastically changed man's nature and spiritual death happened as a result. When people are told they are spiritually dead they can't see it, they are blind to their own depraved state. It take the power of the Holy Spirit to show a person who they really are, depraved ruined sinners in need of redemption. If you have never been convicted of sinnership, then you have no need of redemption. Jesus came for sinners. Man can not of himself convict himself of sinnership, but this is the work of God directly on the soul. Jesus will save His people from their sins, nothing will thwart His plan to save each and every one for whom He came to save.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6145997 - 10/08/06 10:01 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"Man was made in God's image and very good. However the Fall drastically changed man's nature and spiritual death happened as a result. When people are told they are spiritually dead they can't see it, they are blind to their own depraved state."

Man being already perfect needs no redemption except from propoganda like yours. The ideas that you are espousing are dysfunctional.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6146040 - 10/08/06 10:43 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Indeed, we were made in gods image, and if god is perfect, then we must also be of this same nature. Imperfection cannot arise out of perfection, this is a logical fact. It is only ignorance of our true nature, our divine perfection, that compells us to act in a sinful manner.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6146049 - 10/08/06 10:48 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
Indeed, we were made in gods image, and if god is perfect, then we must also be of this same nature. Imperfection cannot arise out of perfection, this is a logical fact. It is only ignorance of our true nature, our divine perfection, that compells us to act in a sinful manner.



Indeed. Ignorance is the original sin.


--------------------


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6146051 - 10/08/06 10:50 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Quote:

Sinbad said:
Im sorry fivepointer, but the bible is not some sacredly preserved scripture, it has in fact been tampered with and rewritten by many people. Many Gospels were totally left out, for political reasons and it most certainly isnt the source of all doctrine. In fact the bible borrowed many themes, such as the ten commandments, from egyptian sources and scripture, and even the stories of jesus are seen throughout many religions and traditions that predate the bible by centuries.

A side note: becomming fanatical and fundamental in view about anything is bad news.




Sorry Sinbad, the Bible is the Word of God.  Take your attacks on it back to the pits of darkness. 

A side note: You have a fanatical belief in unbelief, for if you believe in something, then you must be a "fanatic" about something. Since belief consists of believing certain things that are considered truth, then what you are really saying is you have a "fanatical" belief in nothing.




I attacked nothing. If you study your religions historical facts, then you may discover some real knowledge that will help you to separate the useful, applicable Christian concepts from the useless dogma.

Fanatical belief is never good, as it blinds one from seeing all sides of a situation. Your response is the typical knee-jerk reaction of someone who has a very narrow view that sees all ideas that are contrary to your fanatical belief structure as "the devil".

Its very sad. Extremists suffer emotionally and spiritually more than any other.  :sad: :heart:


--------------------


Edited by Sinbad (10/08/06 11:07 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6146141 - 10/08/06 11:38 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

this place of free ideas can be healing to people who have had the book pounded into them for years, but the process is slow, and they must want to be released from the patriarchical-book-aterianism, at least a little bit.

usually it is tangled up with an oedipus complex, and the whole replace thy father complex.

it becomes very hard to let one's father be who he is and to let oneself be who one is. but this might be a good forum in which to start.


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6146192 - 10/08/06 12:08 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
this place of free ideas can be healing to people who have had the book pounded into them for years, but the process is slow, and they must want to be released from the patriarchical-book-aterianism, at least a little bit.

usually it is tangled up with an oedipus complex, and the whole replace thy father complex.

it becomes very hard to let one's father be who he is and to let oneself be who one is. but this might be a good forum in which to start.




Just for the record I never had the "book pounded into me for years". I was reared with no religion at all. I was a die hard agnostic for 35 years. Before my conversion I despised Christians as kooks and fools who are deluded. But the truth of the gospel came in power and Spirit applied it to my heart.

I also think that the true gospel of sovereign grace is not being taught in any churches today. The few so called sovereign grace churches all teach that a man can remain in a works gospel AFTER conversion. This shows they themselves have no understanding of the true gospel. It is a very dark time for the true gospel.


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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6146222 - 10/08/06 12:23 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I was a die hard agnostic for 35 years

Like a pendulum you swing from one extreme to another. You will never find the solid ground you are looking for. It doesn't exist IMO. You need to find a way to let go of your attachment and surrender to the natural flow of chaos. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6146343 - 10/08/06 01:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I was a die hard agnostic for 35 years

Like a pendulum you swing from one extreme to another. You will never find the solid ground you are looking for. It doesn't exist IMO. You need to find a way to let go of your attachment and surrender to the natural flow of chaos. :wink:




Indeed! Only then can the true order of things manifest out of the chaos like an illusory fractal pattern.  :wink:


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6146354 - 10/08/06 01:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6146425 - 10/08/06 02:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Actually the intent of the bible is for fundamental belief, but specifically the gospels, sense they are suppose to be the truest and most authentic eyewitness accounts, as much of the gospels were weeded out because they were considered heresy,

Gnostic scriptures were inspired to this day by the same motivations in mind, such as Jesus's other life events which was basically inspired by fictional writing with a different intent in mind other than documenting historical accounts of Jesus's life. I think that all accounts were considered heresy by some so they wanted to get on the act, sense the Jews like the prestige that came with being well rounded more spiritually developed than say the rest of the simpletons, and any attack on their divine knowledge would be treated as undermining the true intent of why the gospels were created in the first place. This undermines the fundamentalist view in which the gospels aren't written as anything other than documenting actual life events. Yes the bible is also much inspired with a fiction inner knowing, and more to do with fantasy and occultism such as the book of revelations.

The intent of the gospels true or false was not to be looked at this way. Research of the historical Jesus has been partaken to uncover the mystery behind these issues, but I doubt any real solid evidence will ever be revealed to convince anyone of what actual grounds or claims the gospels hold.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6146431 - 10/08/06 02:24 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

All that and so much/little more.  :tongue: :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6146446 - 10/08/06 02:31 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
this place of free ideas can be healing to people who have had the book pounded into them for years, but the process is slow, and they must want to be released from the patriarchical-book-aterianism, at least a little bit.

usually it is tangled up with an oedipus complex, and the whole replace thy father complex.

it becomes very hard to let one's father be who he is and to let oneself be who one is. but this might be a good forum in which to start.




Well, I rather appreciate beginning with the psychological whys and wherefores of religious fanaticism. If the historical Jesus, who in Mark 6 ( http://jesusdynasty.com/blog/2006/07/26/an-unnamed-father-of-jesus/ ) is referred to as "the son of Mary," that is a very real appellation of a child born out of wedlock. Transfer of an 'unknown' father to a spiritual Father (namely, God) could be a psychological outcome. This was of course parlayed into a doctrine of parthenogenic birth (not a unique claim among ancients, only unique to uneducated Christians). Calling Jesus a 'mamser' (bastard) is not intended to alarm or insult anyone, but as sure as the earth revolves on its axis, a fundamentalist Christian will explode with righteous indignation among rants of blasphemy at the mere suggestion. This reaction defends against any possibility of detached logical consideration because it strikes at the root of a myth-turned-delusion.

Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder is something that I've seen up close when applied to the Bible. I worked with a man who maintained that notion that the geneology in Matthew was historically accurate and placed our mythic parents Adam and Eve at a few sidereal days after the earth's creation. Obviously the man maintained that the earth was some 5700+ years old instead of 4 billion years. Stars are being born in star nurseries as we speak, and presumably planets. Only earth had instantaneous, Cecil B. DeMille-made instant naked man lying in the dust whence he was made - literally.

This type of mentation was presented as his personal superiority as a man of faith - that he could trust Biblical sayings OVER empirical, scientific evidence. Dinosaur fossils were buried by God to test this type of faith - there were never dinosaurs (the Bible doesn't mention any and mankind existed from the beginning - life did not evolve). Or, the stars will fall from the sky (Biblical age understanding of cosmology) because it says so in Revelations (the earth was at the center of the cosmos). Even conceding that the sun is a star and is a million times the volume of the earth, this man once suggested to me that 'perhaps God puts some kind of force field around the sun to make it look larger than it actually is.' In such a case, the sun, as a star, could also fall to earth. I suggested to him that the Greek word *aster* as in asterisk might mean star, but those big rocks (like B-612) coming this way are called *asteroids* and perhaps the prophesy means our demise by asteroid. Well, the English translation said 'star' after all, not 'asteroid,' so that bit of logic was quickly dismissed.

The point is, one cannot effect an intact delusional system whether it is Obsessive-Compulsive, Paranoid Personality, or Schizophrenia, Paranoid type using logic and empirical evidence. When the delusion has merged with an existing structure like scriptures, additional claims to authenticity, based on metaphysical assumptions add energy to the intactness of the delusion. It is a closed system, and a closed mind that is not trans-rational, but unfortunately irrational. [S&P forum regulars: please consider this before attempting rational debate with rationally insolvent irrationality. Compassion IS Wisdom, but also, while good words are like silver, silence is pure gold in these matters].

Peace be with you all (especially those who need it most - you know who you are).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6146455 - 10/08/06 02:36 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Most Excellent post.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineAndy21
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6146576 - 10/08/06 03:37 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Great post Markos.  :thumbup:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6146593 - 10/08/06 03:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I was a die hard agnostic for 35 years

Like a pendulum you swing from one extreme to another. You will never find the solid ground you are looking for. It doesn't exist IMO. You need to find a way to let go of your attachment and surrender to the natural flow of chaos. :wink:



Interestingly enough, I've also noticed that the most militant atheists often come from fundamentalist backgrounds.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Andy21]
    #6146620 - 10/08/06 04:00 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

:wink:


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6146635 - 10/08/06 04:07 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Thanks. Although now I've been judged and remanded to the Pit of Darkness (which it is assumed I've come from anyway). I can say with all sincerity that "Jesus is Lord' (i.e., My Heart-of-Hearts is the Infinite Compassion which I pray guides my every thought and deed)...and yet, and yet...it does not matter one bit to me if Y'shua ben Miriam ever existed in the flesh. Not saying He didn't, not saying He did, but a historical Jesus has no effect on my life or the lives of the most rabidly fanatical fundamentalist Christians. We are not bid to become 'Christians' anyway, we are bid to become Christ.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6146671 - 10/08/06 04:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

OK, or as I would say we are to become aware our true being as the creator creating.

If LOVE is the motivating force it doesn't matter to me what you call it. :heart: :thumbup: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinefivepointer
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6146687 - 10/08/06 04:28 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Thanks. Although now I've been judged and remanded to the Pit of Darkness (which it is assumed I've come from anyway). I can say with all sincerity that "Jesus is Lord' (i.e., My Heart-of-Hearts is the Infinite Compassion which I pray guides my every thought and deed)...and yet, and yet...it does not matter one bit to me if Y'shua ben Miriam ever existed in the flesh. Not saying He didn't, not saying He did, but a historical Jesus has no effect on my life or the lives of the most rabidly fanatical fundamentalist Christians. We are not bid to become 'Christians' anyway, we are bid to become Christ.




MarkostheGnostic never ceases to astonish with one blasphemy after another. This in his previous posting he suggests Jesus is a bastard and not born of the Holy Spirit. He never takes on the subject on the table. He creates straw men, then proceeds to argue against something no one has brought up. The very fact that he doesn't know whether Jesus physically existed demonstrates what he really believes about the authority of scriptures. It proves that he considers the apostles liars and deceptive men. Another blashemy. He continues to bring the false gospel of gnosticism, which is a lie from the darkest pits. This teaching was identified and soundly denounced by the apostles in the NT.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6146745 - 10/08/06 04:56 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I merely want to add that the entire drama of God inserting God's presence in a "superabundant" way is shot through with the idea of humility to the point of humiliation. For omniscient Deity to experience finitude is a lot like the modern myth of Superman when he loses his super powers - only worse.

If being born to poor peasants on the run from a 'slaughter of the innocents' (a recapitulation of the story of baby Moses BTW, and not historically evidenced in Jesus' time) was not enough... If being born in a manger in the midst of farm animals is not sufficiently humble enough circumstances to make a point, then allow me to suggest that being the child of an unwed Jewish woman, raped by an occupying Roman soldier demonstrates far more humbling circumstances, particularly owing to the cruel patriarchal regard for such a situation at the time. A Joseph character was inserted as an 'adoptive' father to rectify such a scandalous beginning (just as another Joseph character [of Arimethea] was inserted at the story of death).

If such lowly birth is not humiliating enough, then death on a cross, naked (though depicted usually with some white shroud to cover the lower body), body broken by 40 rib-breaking lashes of a lead-dumbell (not sharp-edged Mel Gibson creation) tipped Roman flagrum, involuntary urination and possibly defecation mixing with blood and sweat, and the inevitable spontaneous erection and ejaculation that occurs with asphixiation of males (the cause of death on the cross) should make the point of humiliation.

And what exactly is the point of the life of Jesus sandwiched between humiliating conception and death, and humility of life between? That for all of us, if our home is truly Heaven, or the Fullness (Pleroma), then Jesus is the Archetype, the Paradigm, the Template of Universal Humankind and it is exactly the same story for every human being who has ever incarnated - taken flesh - on this earth [plane]. Most people get used to it, come to enjoy it, take earthly life so seriously that they'll even kill for that jacked Mercedes-Benz or diamond ring. But we are supposed to experience the humiliation of our finitude and do what we need to do to transcend its limits. Humility characterizes The Way - it demonstrates that this world of sensate experience and its proliferation is NOT what our 'vertical' dimension of human existence is about. Most everyone becomes content to expand upon the 'horizontal' axis of existence - becoming more worldly, acquiring more possessions, bearing more children, desiring status, wealth, power. Am I saying anything here that even the least-read most marginal Christian doesn't know?

We've been watching The Matrix films with TacticalBongRip and his Lady. Agent Smith, an autonomous being of Artificial Intelligence who eventually learns to leave The Matrix of virtual reality and incarnate (parasitically) human beings. He hates doing that. He refers to 'the smell, if one can call it that,' of co-existing in a 'rotting piece of meat.' Somewhere between this attitude and the attitude of a materialist-hedonist, lies The Way. We are 'to be in the world [and the body] but not of the world.' This bit of dissociative Wisdom is Biblical and at the same time decidely Gnostic. Incarnation, Initiation (e.g., Baptism/Rebirth, Marriage, 'The Bridal Chamber,' etc.), Death, Resurrection (following the final Rebirth), Ascension, all belong to the language of Initiation and all belong to each of us. Can we begin to see Jesus for what Jesus Really is - the Door (like the Good Book says) into Initiation into higher states of being?

Can we see the doctrines of Original Sin, Eternal Punishment and the other damnable techniques of manipulation for what they were and are - political mind control? If we choose to live in The Way, we optimize our options as human beings. We no longer need to be threatened by 'wait til your father gets home,' or 'wait until Judgement Day' if we choose to live in The Way.

Illumination, Enlightenment is not all about sin and morality. One doesn't become holy by becoming a 'Boy Scout.' One becomes a 'Boy Scout' by living in The Way. Hellfire and brimstone belong in Hell. What of the beings who are filled with these sulphurous threats? Peace and Light do do emanate from them: anger, guilt, fear, revenge, resentment, arrogance, self-righteous indignation come forth from such beings - Children of Hell, certainly not Children of Light.

There. I got that s**t off my chest whether anybody reads it or not.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineAndy21
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6146853 - 10/08/06 05:44 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Hey is this lady a child of the light?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6146970 - 10/08/06 06:34 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

blashemy.

Cut the childish blashemy talk. You sound unhealthy in the extreme. :tongue: There is really nothing in your posts that relate to this forum IMO. Neither philosphy or spirituality. Your posts seem like those of a religious zelot that seems to me to be self hating and thus hating of those who hold differing beliefs. :thumbdown:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6146988 - 10/08/06 06:42 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The ultimate blasphemy is to turn a message of love and redemption into an intolerant message of hate.


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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6147097 - 10/08/06 07:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

I feel less charitable towards him than you. I deal with people of this mind set everyday.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinepsychomime
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6147102 - 10/08/06 07:20 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
There. I got that s**t off my chest whether anybody reads it or not.




I read it. I was reading through this thread and got to this post and had to thank you for writing such a moving interpretation of the suffering and redemption of Jesus. I will never dismiss christianity as flippantly as I have again. thank you too fivepointer for starting this thread. if you hadn't i might never have seen the light.


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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: psychomime]
    #6147124 - 10/08/06 07:29 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting that fivepointer's obsession can have such positive results. The Universe is an awesome place.  :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6147142 - 10/08/06 07:33 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Interesting that fivepointer's obsession can have such positive results. The Universe is an awesome place.  :grin:



An awesome place full of...SATAN!!!



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Silversoul]
    #6147174 - 10/08/06 07:43 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Satan rules and Jesus drools. :shocked:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6147212 - 10/08/06 07:55 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Not really trying to offend here. Just demonstrating how to Kill the Buddha. :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6147254 - 10/08/06 08:09 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Only if you see him on the road though!  :evil: :lol:


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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6147279 - 10/08/06 08:18 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

yep, shed those icons and realize that within you is everything you seek to realize.

How scary is that? :grin:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Icelander]
    #6147295 - 10/08/06 08:22 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Its like its as if you are in a dark room, and you see what looks like a snake on the ground, and fear, suspicion, and doubt arise in your mind. Then you switch the light on, and what sweet relief, it was only your dirty sock from last night after all. Nothing too scary at all. Unless you got fungus. :mushroom2:  :tongue: :lol:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6147309 - 10/08/06 08:25 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

That's good! :laugh: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: fivepointer]
    #6149222 - 10/09/06 07:46 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

"MarkostheGnostic never ceases to astonish with one blasphemy after another. This in his previous posting he suggests Jesus is a bastard and not born of the Holy Spirit. He never takes on the subject on the table. He creates straw men, then proceeds to argue against something no one has brought up. The very fact that he doesn't know whether Jesus physically existed demonstrates what he really believes about the authority of scriptures. It proves that he considers the apostles liars and deceptive men. Another blashemy. He continues to bring the false gospel of gnosticism, which is a lie from the darkest pits. This teaching was identified and soundly denounced by the apostles in the NT."

Thank you for making my point. It was just too predictable to feel even the slightest satisfaction about it. As to Jesus' status, every point that I raised has been raised for centuries. You also do not KNOW whether Jesus existed historically, it is a matter of faith for all of us. YOU however believe that only YOUR belief is valid and this is the problem behind all religious intolerance.

Of course I am countering the mainstream doctrines. They do not work to the end of theosis for the most part, only cause suffering. You, unfortunately friend, are a case in point - in five points, fivepointer.

"Christianity must change or die."
- John Shelby Spong


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6149339 - 10/09/06 10:01 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The difference is Mark, that you have learned to separate the usless dogma, from the useful Chrsitian concepts and symbology in the bible.

Fivepointer however thinks that the bible is the infallable, sacredy presevered word of God, and accepts it all on blind faith, as THE TRUTH. No critical analysis.

On a side note, one of my favourite Christian quotes is from St Francis.

"Lord,
Make me an instrument of your peace;
Where there is hatred let me sow love;
Where there is injury pardon;
Where there is doubt faith;
Where there is despair hope;
Where there is darkness light;
Where there is sadness joy.

O Divine Master,
Grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console,
To be understood as to understand,
To be loved as to love,
For it is in giving that we receive,
It is in pardoning, that we are pardoned,
It is in dying that we are born to eternal life.

Where there is charity and wisdom, there is neither fear nor ignorance.
Where there is patience and humility, there is neither anger nor vexation.
Where there is poverty and joy, there is neither greed nor avarice.
Where there is peace and meditation, there is neither anxiety nor doubt."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Sinbad]
    #6149458 - 10/09/06 10:57 AM (15 years, 1 month ago)

The difference is Mark, that you have learned to separate the usless dogma, from the useful Chrsitian concepts and symbology in the bible.

So true. Fivepointer will never it seems understand the faith he believes in. Salvation will forever be outside of his understanding. It's a sad case and too common. :frown:

And part of the big picture :laugh: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The doctrine of predestination, particular redemption and total depravity [Re: Andy21]
    #6150630 - 10/09/06 05:46 PM (15 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Andy21 said:
Hey is this lady a child of the light?




This is an example of a Child of Wrath, a Child of Hell. Here is an example of fundamentalist mentality, Christian version, that has gone so awry that the very Kerygma, the message of love and forgiveness (more than just tolerance) has become a proactive message of hate. Thank God that the theocracy of the ancient Hebrews has been surpassed by a 'law of love,' despite the contradictory Gospel selections and forged letters of Paul that comprise much of the canonical New Testament, or we'd be stoning people to death left and right.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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