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 fivepointer
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 The Biblical doctrine of Hell 
#5389902 - 03/11/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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This post is to refute certain false ?Christians? on this board who deny the doctrine of hell.
Hell is an eternal place of conscious torment.
The Bible warns of the eternity and permanence of hell.
Mt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Rev. 14:11: The smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Jude 1:6-7 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jude 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
2 Pet 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Luke 16, describes a horrific picture of hell:
22 ... the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father?s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Jesus Christ says in Mark 9:43-48, (also Matt 18:8)
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mat 18:9
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Jesus makes the statement that hell is so horrible that a person should cut off their own hand or foot or pluck out their own eye if it would keep them out of hell. This is how serious it is, and how horrible it is.
Wailing and gnashing of teeth are described in many verses:
Mt 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mt 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Lu 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
Jesus Christ atoned for the sins of His people and came under the wrath of God for them. To be under the wrath of God is described as being in the HEART OF THE EARTH or the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH. The heart and lower parts of the earth are molten rock and sulphurous compounds. Jesus spoke in parables so these descriptions may be parabolic in nature, but whether it is literal or parable it is a place of indescribable suffering and is never ending.
Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale?s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Ephesians 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth
The devils cried out to Jesus, even they know they will be tormented in due time.
Mt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Those who deny this plain teaching are calling Jesus a deceived man or a liar.
Denial of this doctrine is blasphemy of the person and work of Jesus Christ.
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lysergicide
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5390009 - 03/11/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I think that "hell" is a mental state of mind, and not the physical realm where inpure souls are damned to after death as depicted in Christianity. I think that "hell" is a good representation of how inpurity (or sin) can lead you to a life full of sorrow & tormentation. People should always try to be good people- to themselves and to one another to try and guide themselves away from such a road. Speak, think, and act with clear and pure thoughts in mind, otherwise your lust, your greed, your selfishness and hate will all come back to bite you in the ass.
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 Disco Cat
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5390363 - 03/11/06 08:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I don't have time to explain all those versus right now, but don't worry, I will in time. Maybe I'll do one a day, maybe not. I'll just address a bit for now.
First of all, I'm not calling Jesus a liar, I'm saying that you don't understand the things Jesus said. Jesus said to test his words to see if they are true, so we'll do just that.
EXAMPLE 1:
Quote:
Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale?s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
He was buried in a tomb for 3 day, what else do you think "in the heart of the earth" means? It's akin to when Jesus said "Elijah was to come before Jesus and restore all things" - but Elijah was really John the baptist, "if you can accept it."
"nailed to a tree" - means, the cross
"Elijah must come first" - means, John the baptist
"three days in the heart of the earth" - means, three days in a tomb
Have you learnt the type of mistake you're making?
EXAMPLE 2:
Quote:
Luke 16, describes a horrific picture of hell:
22 ... the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father?s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
So you emphasize "place of torment" as your proof that this verse is talking about everlasting hell? You'll need to explain that. Now to use this parable*(see bottom of post) as evidence for an afterlife of hell, this needs to be a literal parable (which is an oxymoron), so that means
1. heaven is literally in Abraham's bosom. What is Abraham in then? How big is Abraham's bosom? Is there tv in his bosom?
2. we can see hell from heaven, and we can talk to people in this hell from heaven, yet there is a great gulf fixed there - yet the rich man didn't know this before he asked Abraham to send him relief. (BTW, Can people in Abraham's bosom see hell, or is it just Abraham, who is the only one outside of his own bosom?)
3. the rich man and Lazarus are real characters. If that's so, then why is the rich man's name "the rich man?"
4. "Even the dogs came and licked his sores." That line is part of the same parable, but wasn't included in your selection. Why would this man have allowed the dogs to lick his sores, and why would it be included as relevant to Jesus' message? Maybe because Jesus was trying to make him sound as pitiful as possible to make a great contract between the characters.
5. "The rich man" and Lazarus must have been good pals or something, or why else would "the rich man" specifically ask for Lazarus to dip his finger into water and cool his tongue? Why would "the rich man" have thought that such a thing could ease his suffering anyways in a "lake of unending fire," wouldn't the water have evaporated before it had gotten to him anyway?
things to note: The actual word written is Hades, not hell. Hades is a Greek mythology term, used to describe both the location of the dead, and the god of the dead. Why would Jesus use another religion's version of the afterlife? Was he maybe just trying to get a point across? hrmmm...
Now, here is what I claim the parable to be saying, which is what it represents what taken as a parable...
The people in Abraham's bosom represent those who live life according to Abraham's example - sons of Abraham. As Abraham lived well and prospered so do those who live his example, being spiritually full. The rich man did not live unselfishly, and so was separate from spiritual peace, and what really mattered. That part about how he could not send Lazarus to warn his brothers about the dangers of this way of living illustrates that you cannot be forced into living a right life, but that you must discipline yourself to live that life, and endure the results that your choices bring you.
Interesting Hell fact for the day: King David writes "Oh Lord, You brough me up from Sheol (Sheol is one of the words Hell replaces in contemporary bibles) Psalm 30:3"
David writes this while still alive, not having yet died, not even once!! How is this possible?!?!! What could it mean?
So now make your decision, fivepointer. Are you going to accept a teaching of fear, or a teaching of freedom?
"He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
from *: "he spoke to them in parables, he did not say anything to them without using a parable"
Parable means a short story acting as a metaphor to express a truth
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Disco Cat]
#5390510 - 03/11/06 10:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well said Disco Cat. And, of course, the obvious mythic flavor of Biblical writ must be reiterated. The assumption that Biblical characters are historical characters is, well, just childish, especially when those who maintain Biblical historicity claim that only their religious stories are historical while everyone else's is mythological or mere fabrication. This powerful device of Literalist Christianity - to maintain that the mythic became historical - took me in as well for many of my adult years. It is the big LIE of Christianity, which paradoxically claims that every religion except Literalist Christianity is a LIE. And yet, such humans, having so perversely taken scriptures literally, have perpetrated unmentionable horrors on other human beings. Better to burn a living man, woman or child to death at the stake - and in so doing 'save' their soul - than to let them burn in metaphysical fire for Eternity!!!
There is nothing that I can evoke in history - not even genocide for 'ethnic cleansing' by Nazis and others - that beats the psychopathology in this type of thinking. The understanding of 'soul' is so puerile as to to be laughable if there wasn't so much horror behind it. The meglomania of the Roman emperors somehow got translated, and dispersed into Literalist Christian mentality, and for God's sake, something better change soon in humanity - in Christian and in Muslim. There is no love in Fundamentalists of either faith. They themselves are the damnation they project onto each other and those who won't take up sides in their demonic war.
Shalom. Salaam. Shanti. Pax. Peace.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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SneezingPenis
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Disco Cat]
#5390587 - 03/11/06 10:40 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Disco Cat
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I personally do think that most characters in the bible are historical, Job aside, and I have no problems with that. It inspires dreams of grandeur in me, and I want to hurl down fire from the sky one day too  (in a good way!). But religion misunderstands seemingly every single word these teachers say. In the end they aren't getting all mystically wacky with their teachings, they're actually extremely down to earth - but playing off the concepts of the time, albeit tongue in cheek. You can see that the people in those days understood that, and that's what irked the religious leaders then, just like today.
The point of these prohpet guys is to encourage people to commit to knowing truth themselves, the messengers were just that. Besides, Jesus declared "I am the truth," so knowing the truth is the same as knowing both, but it doesn't just as simply work the other way around - as exampled in this thread's first post.
Edited by Disco Cat (03/12/06 12:21 AM)
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fivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Disco Cat]
#5390792 - 03/12/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Disco Cat wrote:
"three days in the heart of the earth" - means, three days in a tomb
"three days in the heart of the earth" - is parabolic language for being under the wrath of God during the atonement. I did mention in my post that parabolic language is used in scripture. Scripture has many levels of meaning in types and pictures and parables. This doesn't change the essential meaning that hell is a place of eternal conscious torment.
That part about how he could not send Lazarus to warn his brothers about the dangers of this way of living illustrates that you cannot be forced into living a right life, but that you must discipline yourself to live that life, and endure the results that your choices bring you.
Luke 16 is not talking about temporal results in this life, of how you live in this current physical life and the results it brings.
The rich man had no problems at all in his physical life, and was not bothered spiritually while he was alive. Only after he died and was cast into hell did he have problems.
Even if you use "Hades" instead of "hell" you still have to deal with:
..I am tormented in this flame.
...but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
....lest they also come into this place of torment.
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Silversoul
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
The assumption that Biblical characters are historical characters is, well, just childish, especially when those who maintain Biblical historicity claim that only their religious stories are historical while everyone else's is mythological or mere fabrication.
Um...but many(if not most) Biblical characters are historical. Are you saying that David, Solomon, Herod, Paul of Tarsus, or John the Baptist are all purely mythological?
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fivepointer
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Markos, you are off topic. No one is discussing how the antichristian Roman Catholic church burned people at the stake or genocide. The reason why you bring this up is to paint those that do not agree with you. Where is the love Marcos?
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Disco Cat
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5390842 - 03/12/06 01:18 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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You have no choice but to use the word Hades, because that's what is written. Hell is a word that didn't exist then.
The rich man's 'torment' was already dealt with as his spiritual state. Jesus said "The kingdom of God is within you," therefore the pit of sheol is likewise within you. The rich man of this story lives in physical luxury, but his spiritual state is Hades.
Maybe you just need to experience these states before you can understand that they're meant for in this world.
And the "wrath of God during atonement" is not synonymous with "3 days in the heart of the earth," bible study's got that one wrong. Being buried in a tomb for 3 days, however, is. The "Wrath of God" is what put Jesus "three days into the earth," not what being there is.
Life is eternal, no doubt, but death cannot be, because that is contrary to what death is. It is the teardown of existence, the absence of anything tangible. It is a dimishment, and every dimishment has an end. Death is synonymous with loss. If there is a consciousness to experience loss then that consciousness is life. If there is life then there is God, and if there is God then anything is still possible.
The bible never suggests that God is a separate being from us, rather that God simply is. Jesus, as the voice of God, says "I am the life," therefore each and every one of us who lives can not be anything but part of God. God desires only life, and with God all things are possible. Do you not see there is no room left for anyone's complete spiritual destruction?
Jesus set an example, but he never claimed to be more than anyone else. He spoke using the term "Son of Man" whenever he said something to do with exclusivity, but why use the term "Son of Man," what does it mean, and who is, and who isn't a "Son of Man?" Perhaps whenever he decribes the "Son of Man" he is describing more than just himself, hmmm?
Edited by Disco Cat (03/12/06 01:25 AM)
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it stars saddam
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5390851 - 03/12/06 01:22 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Come on, people, let's wrap this up here. Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on. There is no point in attempting to use logic, reason, and thinking in order to change viewpoints in this, not even for the impressionable youth.
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fireworks_god
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Biblical quotes do not pertain to anything evidenced in reality. Employing them as though they are some form of proof, even of the concepts they relate to, accomplishes nothing.
The phonebook is equally valid as the Word Of God, and it doesn't even have to proclaim itself as being The Word Of God?. Anyone who truly believes in God would instantly recognize that such source is The Word Of God?, thus, the fact that the Bible's only verification that it is The Word Of God? is that it proclaims it to be true demonstrates that it cannot be accepted as The Word Of God? by faith alone.
Thus, anyone who utilizes The Bible as The Word Of God? is weak of faith. Those who utilize The Phone Book As The Official Directory Of God's Word are truly faithful and blessed. Not only that - they can also use the information contained within it to actually benefit themselves. The Phone Book As The Official Directory Of God's Word is the only source of The Word Of God? that matters.
Imagine that - The Word Of God? that is actually useful and applicable in our lives, and scientifically validated (the number you dialed WAS the pizza guy's delivery service  ). I propose that we burn The Bible and canonize each and every phone book as The Word Of God?. 
Not only that, but the transition of which book is The Word Of God? will not make the Gideons' task any more difficult, as every hotel room in the world already has a phone book in it as well.  THAT should have been your FIRST clue. 
 
Peace. 
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
  
 
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BlueCoyote
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
#5391123 - 03/12/06 05:13 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Hehe, even if the words in the bible were twisted, misused, malformed, misinterpreted and malintended by many (re-)writers of the text, I propose not to burn ANY book.
I think, some days we will be able to filter out all those human 'interpretations' and wickednesses that tainted that formerly prescious book, what will share light on the human psychology (of that time) and perhaps let the prescious gem of divine truth araise out of the dirt, again.
Even the phone book of New Orleans of 1930 has valuable information in it.
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fivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
#5391138 - 03/12/06 05:43 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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fireworks_god writes:
Biblical quotes do not pertain to anything evidenced in reality.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Satan quotes scripture:
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus answers with scripture:
Mt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Jesus quotes from scripture many times showing that it is indeed the Word of God.
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fireworks_god
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5391147 - 03/12/06 06:08 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
I propose not to burn ANY book.
Certainly. 
Quote:
I think, some days we will be able to filter out all those human 'interpretations' and wickednesses that tainted that formerly prescious book
A. One would have to obtain the original writing.
B. One would need to be capable of understanding the language within the context of those who spoke only that language.
That said, it isn't as if The Bible was a uniform book. Numerous writings from a great variety of times and places.
Quote:
Even the phone book of New Orleans of 1930 has valuable information in it.
But yet, since it did not contain how to prevent the city from being flooded, that information was only half-knowledge, eh?
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391153 - 03/12/06 06:16 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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fivey: But one thing you have to be sure of: Words have to be written by humans, so they always are in danger to be personally and subjectively influenced by author.
The only Holy Book, which needs no writings by humans is nature itself (as seen by every Shaman or Druid or Native 'Spiritist').
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fireworks_god
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
#5391154 - 03/12/06 06:17 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Jesus quotes from scripture many times showing that it is indeed the Word of God.
Scripture refers to more scripture several times to indicate that scripture is The Word Of God?.
Positively fallacious; fallaciously outrageous, unfortunately contagious!
Seriously, the fact that a book states that it is true does not confirm that the book is true. Such a realization is quite elementary. To become ensnared within such a basic loop is evident of... well, you know...
Quote:
Insane Man At Bus Stop: I am the reincarnation of Alexander The Great!
Innocent Bystander: How do you know that?
Insane Man At Bus Stop: Because I proclaim it to be true!
Innocent Bystander: I hereby disengage my rational thought processes and will follow you as you conquer the world once more, and I thus adopt the name Alexandria in your honor.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
#5391163 - 03/12/06 06:28 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
I think, some days we will be able to filter out all those human 'interpretations' and wickednesses that tainted that formerly prescious book
A. One would have to obtain the original writing.
B. One would need to be capable of understanding the language within the context of those who spoke only that language.
Not necessarily. If one understands what leaded people to the interpretations they made, one could 'filter' them out of the text to prevail the 'true' word, which is intended.
The other way round: If ?we know more of God (from other sources), then we are more able to detect the human derivations in the bible, too and mark them as those, getting them out, knowing about them
Quote:
That said, it isn't as if The Bible was a uniform book. Numerous writings from a great variety of times and places.
And persons...yes, right And all about the same concept
Quote:
Quote:
Even the phone book of New Orleans of 1930 has valuable information in it.
But yet, since it did not contain how to prevent the city from being flooded, that information was only half-knowledge, eh?
I didn't think of that, but the new book surely has something inside, which could have made the flood preventable or at least less damaging in its effects (as long as the telephone-network was still working, of course), like local engineers, hospitals, ambulance...
Perhaps in the old book (of1930), we would find much more active engineers, who were concerned with the problem of the city-flooding, so we would have to wonder and recognize, why they ceased concerning it as dangerous...
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fivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391189 - 03/12/06 07:03 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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If Scripture is just the words of men, then how do you explain the fact that all the OT prophesy was EXACTLY fulfilled?
I found below from another site, I have not had time to go through each verse, but just by looking it seems accurate.
SUBJECT OT Prophecy NT Fulfillment
As the Son of God Ps 2:7 Lu 1:32,35
As the seed of the woman Ge 3:15 Ga 4:4
As the seed of Abraham Ge 17:7 22:18 Ga 3:16
As the seed of Isaac Ge 21:12 Heb 11:17-19
As the seed of David Ps 132:11 Jer 23:5 Ac 13:23 Ro 1:3
His coming at a set time Ge 49:10 Da 9:24,25 Lu 2:1
His being born of a virgin Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22,23 Lu 2:7
His being called Immanuel Isa 7:14 Mt 1:22,23
His being born in Bethlehem of Judea Mic 5:2 Mt 2:1 Lu 2:4-6
Great persons coming to adore him Ps 72:10 Mt 2:1-11
The slaying of the children of BethlehemJer 31:15 Mt 2:16-18
His being called out of Egypt Ho 11:1 Mt 2:15
His being preceded by John the Baptist Isa 40:3 Mal 3:1 Mt 3:1,3 Lu 1:17
His being anointed with the Spirit Ps 45:7 Isa 11:2 61:1 Mt 3:16 Joh 3:34 Ac 10:38
His being a Prophet like to Moses De 18:15-18 Ac 3:20-22
His being a Priest like Melchizedek Ps 110:4 Heb 5:5,6
His entering on his public ministry Isa 61:1,2 Lu 4:16-21,43
His ministry commencing in Galilee Isa 9:1,2 Mt 4:12-16,23
His entering publicly into Jerusalem Zec 9:9 Mt 21:1-5
His coming into the temple Hag 2:7,9 Mal 3:1 Mt 21:12 Lu 2:27-32 Joh 2:13-16
His poverty Isa 53:2 Mr 6:3 Lu 9:58
His meekness and want of ostentatious Isa 42:2 Mt 12:15,16,19
His tenderness and compassion Isa 40:11 42:3 Mt 12:15,20 Heb 4:15
His being without guile Isa 53:9 1Pe 2:22
His zeal Ps 69:9 Joh 2:17
His preaching by parables Ps 78:2 Mt 13:34,35
His working miracles Isa 35:5,6 Mt 11:4-6 Joh 11:47
His bearing reproach Ps 22:6 69:7,9,20 Ro 15:3
His being rejected by his brethren Ps 69:8 Isa 63:3 Joh 1:11 7:3
His being a stumbling stone to the Jews Isa 8:14 Ro 9:32 1Pe 2:8
His being hated by the Jews Ps 69:4 Isa 49:7 Joh 15:24,25
His being rejected by the Jewish rulers Ps 118:22 Mt 21:42 Joh 7:48
Jews and Gentiles combine against Him Ps 2:1,2 Lu 23:12 Ac 4:27
His being betrayed by a friend Ps 41:9 55:12-14 Joh 13:18,21
His disciples forsaking him Zec 13:7 Mt 26:31,56
His being sold for thirty pieces silver Zec 11:12 Mt 26:15
His price given for the potter's field Zec 11:13 Mt 27:7
The intensity of his sufferings Ps 22:14,15 Lu 22:42,44
His sufferings being for others Isa 53:4-6,12 Da 9:26 Mt 20:28
His patience and silence while sufferingIsa 53:7 Mt 26:63 27:12-14
His being smitten on the cheek Mic 5:1 Mt 27:30
His visage being marred Isa 52:14 53:3 Joh 19:5
His being spit on and scourged Isa 50:6 Mr 14:65 Joh 19:1
His hands and feet nailed to the cross Ps 22:16 Joh 19:18 20:25
His being forsaken by God Ps 22:1 Mt 27:46
His being mocked Ps 22:7,8 Mt 27:39-44
Gall and vinegar given him to drink Ps 69:21 Mt 27:34
His garments parted, lots for vesture Ps 22:18 Mt 27:35
Being numbered with the transgressors Isa 53:12 Mr 15:28
His intercession for His murderers Isa 53:12 Lu 23:34
His Death Isa 53:12 Mt 27:50
That a bone of him should not be broken Ex 12:46 Ps 34:20 Joh 19:33,36
His being pierced Zec 12:10 Joh 19:34,37
His being buried with the rich Isa 53:9 Mt 27:57-60
His flesh not seeing corruption Ps 16:10 Ac 2:31
His resurrection Ps 16:10 Isa 26:19 Lu 24:6,31,34
His ascension Ps 68:18 Lu 24:51 Ac 1:9
His sitting on the right hand of God Ps 110:1 Heb 1:3
Exercising the priestly office in heavenZec 6:13 Ro 8:34
Chief corner-stone of the Church Isa 28:16 1Pe 2:6,7
His being King in Zion Ps 2:6 Lu 1:32 Joh 18:33-37
The conversion of the Gentiles to him Isa 11:10 42:1 Mt 1:17,21 Joh 10:16 Ac 10:45,47
His righteous government Ps 45:6,7 Joh 5:30 Re 19:11
His universal dominion Ps 72:8 Da 7:14 Php 2:9,11
The perpetuity of his kingdom Isa 9:7 Da 7:14 Lu 1:32,33
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BlueCoyote
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391297 - 03/12/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Ah cool, I waited for such a collection for some time, thanks !
But I more have to disappoint you, that most of these parallels did have enough time to form up some kind of self fulfilling prophecy. There were many 'messiahs' out there who had the time to form up the situation and the context and the behaviors for finally letting one coming up, who gets very near to the predictions (but even those were 'corrected' afterwards).
Let's start the old 'battle of the prophets' again, and the one who will be closest to truth will be given the ancient god's 'crown' ?
No, it is essential to compare concepts with other religions of spiritual 'knowledge', to let everyone reach that goal.
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fireworks_god
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391310 - 03/12/06 08:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
SUBJECT OT Prophecy NT Fulfillment
As the Son of God Ps 2:7 Lu 1:32,35
Ps 2:7:
7 I will proclaim the decree of the LORD :
He said to me, "You are my Son;
today I have become your Father.
Lu 1:32,35
32He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
35The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God..
Quote:
fivepointer said:
SUBJECT OT Prophecy NT Fulfillment
As the seed of the woman Ge 3:15 Ga 4:4
Ge 3:15
15 And I will put enmity
between you and the woman,
and between your offspring and hers;
he will crush your head,
and you will strike his heel."
Ga 4:4
4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law
Same thing. Very vauge quotes that do not specify anything, "fufilled" by more vauge quotations. A simple phrase such as "I am the Lord, and today I have become your father" is not a prophecy. It does not predict an event. It does not identify something that is to happen.
Anyone who can explain the link between the fifteenth verse of the third chapter of Genesis and that of the fourth verse of the fourth chapter of Galatians can step right up and testify. I am completely baffled by this "prophecy". 
I will not persist in providing more verses to illustrate my point as I actually have more important things to do, like breakfast, first and foremost.
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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MarkostheGnostic
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 Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Silversoul]
#5391357 - 03/12/06 09:15 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Recent Biblical scholarship is coming to certain conclusions, including the mythic character of a majority of our beloved Biblical characters. Freke's & Gandy's series of books on Gnostic Christianity cites copious references, which, upon follow-up, refer one to web-cites, books and professional papers. The information has been glossed over for so long because - as is evident from the emotional tenor of your own response - it comes as a shock and with a strong unwillingness to let go of life-long assumptions. Like Neo after he took the Red Pill - "He's gonna pop!" - and then he retched.
One of the issues that I've been aware of goes back to 1974 when Egyptologist Bob Brier (of TLC and Mummy-making fame), then, my professor, told me that there simply was no archeological evidence to support any large scale Hebrew enslavement in, and exodus from Egypt. Hebrew writings of late, subjected to more rigorous scrutiny than ever before, are finally appearing in the same mythic light that say, the Bhagavad Gita appears in. Hindus never expect anyone to believe in a historicity in their stories.
There is no evidence, for example, that there was a town of Nazareth at the time that Jesus was supposed to have been born. There were Nazarenes - a particular religious sect, and there may have been a corruption of terms by the authors. In fact, there seems to be a great deal of ignorance and confusion in geographical descriptions of the wanderings of Jesus according to the Bible. 'Magdalene' may refer to a certain 'tower,' location of which was Ethiopia, according to recent scholarship. Holy s**t Mary called Magdalene might have been an Black woman! Some Ethiopians do have long wavy hair, if that incident with the expensive ointment (parenthetically, 'spikenard,' imported from India where it was used in sacred Tantric sexual practices) comes to mind - wiping Jesus' feet with hair and tears.
Early depictions of Jesus in the Roman catacombs has Him beardless, short-haired and garbed in a Roman tunic. No long-haired hippy. The imagery sometimes fuses with one of the 'other' god-men - Dionysus [god of Nyssus]: grapes, wine, bread, woman followers, dismembered (as was Jesus cloak, symbolically) died, resurrected, born on December 25th - Dionysus. But I wildly digress, sorry about that. Sometimes the new data that I've downloaded into my psyche gives rise to a great need to shout loudly "Awaken!, Awaken! from our unconscious assumptions! We've all been deceived, guilted, shamed, LIED to!!!!" 
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (03/12/06 09:32 AM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391376 - 03/12/06 09:28 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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"...paint those who do not agree with you" ? wtf?
The love in me is the love of Truth, and Truth is synonymous with Reality. I despise the LIE, and I detest being lied to. So do you. So, if and when YOU come to the same type of Realization about the LIE that spawned those doctrines that you are so protective of, you will share my perspective. Truth is Real, and it is One. There is no doubt about that. Try doubting the written formulations of Truth. Be like Neo awakening from The Matrix (a modern Gnostic myth). It'll make you retch too, then you'll become angry, then you'll re-structure your own mind around the One Truth, the One Reality, the One God that gives life to our mind.
Truth=Reality=God
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
#5391472 - 03/12/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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To fireworks_god:
I mentioned that I did not go through each verse that I posted in the list and i found it on a web site, so undoubtedly some probably should have been removed. However the vast majority of the verses appear good. And many are very specific.
The reason you will not accept the truth is that you would have to subject yourself to what it says. Pure hardness of heart is why you reject God's testimony.
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fivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391487 - 03/12/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Marcos,
Swallow the red pill, the Bible is THE WORD OF GOD.
I know this is shocking, let go of life-long assumptions, Marcos.
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Redstorm
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391595 - 03/12/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
fireworks_god writes:
Biblical quotes do not pertain to anything evidenced in reality.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Satan quotes scripture:
Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Jesus answers with scripture:
Mt 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
Mt 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Jesus quotes from scripture many times showing that it is indeed the Word of God.
Using excerpts from the scripture to prove the scripture is the word of God? That's not good form at all. Perhaps I should write a book, and in my reference section, just reference back to certain pages in the book. I'm sure that would fly, right?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391620 - 03/12/06 11:21 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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My present assumptions are correct. I already let go of my life-long assumptions. You are free to call the Bible whatever you wish, but you are suffering under a great lie - more so, in effect, than the Jews-under-the-Law were supposed to be according to the early Christians. It is the same drama being recapitualted in your own life. You will not awaken; have your bubble burst, until you can handle it. Perhaps in your next lifetime, or the one after that .
Have you ever 'awakened' from a dream, only to find yourself in yet another dream, and then believed that you had 'finally' awakened from sleep - but find yourself in a third dream? I have, and this kind of experience on the dream/astral level of life is a teaching. The teaching applies as well to 'waking life.' That which you believe may well apply to you - a 'Psychic' Christian from my perspective. It does not apply to me. I have another interpretation of the same words that you read which apply with 'greater fit' to who (and more importantly) 'what' I am as a human being.
Do you know that among hypnotized individuals, some can be given 'glove anaesthesia' (a simple thing - it numbs the skin of the hand) and then told: 'I will touch your hand with a piece of red-hot metal, but you will feel no pain.' Instead, the hypnotist will touch the subject's hand with a pencil eraser. In about 3% of the hypnotized subjects, the next day, a water blister will appear at the place where the pencil eraser touched the hand! There was never any red hot metal, just a tiny piece of pink rubber, yet belief - a psychic state - manifested the expected result on the body. 'Holy stigmata' works this way too (especially inasmuch as crucifieds were nailed at the base of the hand through the wrist bones, which held the nail, whilst the palm of the hand just rips through. Yet Christian art, based on dissonance between the Biblical word 'palm' [e.g., Mel Gibson's film] and the actual historical practice has led to bleeding palms).
There is much in life to help one toward a truer understanding of Biblical concepts, but IF you are an individual who believes that the Earth and universe is less than 6000 years old by our standard calendar, then I cannot have any further dialogue with you. You immediately become relegated to one suffering delusional thinking on all levels, from the empirical to the spiritual. If that is the case, I am sad because you seem ardent in your search for certainty and meaning in life, and I understand holding unbendingly to certain doctrines, but rest assured - this too shall pass.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fivepointer
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As usual Marcos produces psycho-babble dribble.
You need to repent of your Gnostic heresies and believe God's Word.
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Redstorm
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391728 - 03/12/06 12:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Perhaps you should relax with the personal attacks and attempt to debate the topic at hand.
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fivepointer
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Redstorm]
#5391738 - 03/12/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Perhaps you should relax with the personal attacks and attempt to debate the topic at hand.
Marcos never debates the topic, why don't you admonish him?
I merely state the fact, that in my opinion, he posts psycho-babble laced with damnable heresies of Gnosticism.
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Redstorm
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391743 - 03/12/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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You both need to cut it out. It doesn't impress anyone.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391750 - 03/12/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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His words come from faith in reason. Your reasonings stem from faith in words.
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Silversoul
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Markos, I too have read Freke and Gandy, and find their scholarship to be rather lacking(as do most scholars, apparently). Their references are mostly obscure and impossible to find, and they frequently quote out of context. As for the Hebrews, the earliest known reference to them is an Egyptian wall carving depicting a group of nomads wandering the desert(for 40 years, perhaps?). Do you think it might be possible that they didn't have a recognizable identity before then? The Egyptians obviously would not have recorded them as Hebrews. They would simply be slaves to them. As for Nazareth, there is a historical reference to such a village as early as 200 AD. The fact that the Bible is used by archaeologists to find sites to excavate shows that it is much more than simply mythology.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391867 - 03/12/06 12:49 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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"If Scripture is just the words of men, then how do you explain the fact that all the OT prophesy was EXACTLY fulfilled?"
God LORD man! The New Testament writings were written exactly to that end - to complete the Old Testament prophesies and to ground the New tradition in ancient writings!!!! Has this never dawned on you as a possibility?
"Is it possible that when we stare into the absurdity of some of our common assumptions about the Bible, we might begin to suspect that we have imposed on these sacred texts a strange and foreign agenda? Would it not have seemed obvious to someone ever to ask whether this was the way that the Jewish people wrote or interpreted their sacred stories? Few gentiles there were, however who, in the arrogance of their power and in the dominance of their religious certainty, ever stopped to consider this or any other possibility that might challenge the deeply imposed version of Christian wisdom. So it was that this distorting, prejudiced, unquestioning anti-Jewish attitude that created this gentile captivity of the Gospels went on unchallenged for centuries. The price that Christians paid because of this captivity was the loss of the essential meaning of the Gospels. For the truth found in the Gospels could be revealled only by reading these texts through a Jewish lens. The Jewish lens, however, remained hidden for centuries....
In a deep and significant way, we are now able to see that all of the Gospels are Jewish books, profoundly Jewish books. Recognizing this, we begin to face the realization that we will never understand the Gospels until we learn how to read them as Jewish books. They are written, to a greater or lesser degree, in the midrashic style of the Jewish sacred storyteller, a style that most of us do not begin even now to comprehend. This style is not concerned with historic accuracy. It is concerned with meaning and understanding....
If we are to recover the power present in the scriptures for our time, then this clue to their meaning must be recovered and understood. Ascribing to the Gospels historic accuracy in the style of later historians, or demanding that the narratives of the Gospels be taken literally, or trying to recreate the historical context surrounding each specific event narrated in the Gospels - these are the methods of people who do not realize that they are reading a Jewish book...
But before we can fully address this issue and begin to read the Gospels as Jewish books, we must cast our gaze on the early history of the Christian movement to seek to understand where things went wrong. What were the forces of history that collaborated to tear the Christian church away from its Jewish origins? If we are ever to find our way back to the Jewish perspective that produced our Gospels, then we must understand how that perspective was first broken, then denied, and then lost. It was not an accident."
- from Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible With Jewish Eyes by John Shelby Spong
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391920 - 03/12/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Firstly, stop the juvenile name-calling. Are you a child?
Secondly, "Psycho-babble" in common vernacular, is a term that is supposed to indicate nonsense comprised of techical jargon belonging to psychology.
If your word "dribble" is supossed to mean 'drivel,' which means "to talk or utter stupidly, carelessly, or in an infantile way," then you are simply wrong as well as childlessly name-calling.
My hypnosis example belongs to a research study cited in 'Hypnosis and Psychophysiological Outcomes,' Theodore R. Sarbin and Robert W. Slagle, in the book Hypnosis: Developments in Research and Perspectives, by Erika Fromm and Ronald E. Shore, 1979, p.284
Classical debates in Christian theology were called 'apologias' in the past. Sometimes humor was employed, sometimes sarcasm, but not childish name-calling. Tertullian - the Church Father who first introduced the word 'Trinity' - eventually left his Literalist stance and became a Gnostic in the school of Montanus. He too was called a heretic, and like other so-called declared heretics, he was a brilliant theologian. By including me among those who were condemned for their oftimes superior understanding of things spiritual, I am indeed honored. By assuming that I am 'damned' by God simply tells the readers here that you must somehow 'Be' God - which is exactly what I have been saying as well. Only in your case, you are confusing your own ego with the Presence of God that suffuses all of us.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Disco Cat
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5391930 - 03/12/06 01:15 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Do you have anything else to say on the data I provided you, fivepointer? I don't know if it's going to be worth continuing on the subject here, but if you're going to retort then you have to do so by looking within the information, not running away from the argument by dumping a whole new set of versus down. Those can be thoroughly gone through just like your first set, but finish with one before you go on to the other. As fireworks said, simply providing a list of versus is not the same as showing that your understanding of those versus is correct.
If you care about the truth of these words, then go back to the last data I gave you and tell me what you now think. If you've going to refute then you'll need to do so with reason and evidence that the words mean what you claim. If your theory can't be backed up then it's false. I haven't left any piece unexamined from the Luke passage, so maybe you just need to grow your understanding.
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Silversoul]
#5392002 - 03/12/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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It's a good point you bring up about Hebrew identity from the point of the Egyptians. I am reading Moses and Akhenaton: The Secret History of Egypt at the Time of the Exodus by Ahmed Osman. I haven't gotten very far into it (finishing Jesus and the Lost Goddess and a couple of other books), but the author makes the extravagant claim that Moses WAS Akhenaten - forced to abdicate his throne for the very unpopular doctrine of One God.
"Osman reveals the Egyptian components in the monotheism preached by Moses as well as his use of Egyptian royal ritual and Egyptian religious expression. He shows that even the Ten Commandments reveal the direct influence of Spell 125 in the Egyptian Book of the Dead. Moses and Akhenaton provides a radical challenge to long-standing beliefs concerning the origin of Semitic religion and the puzzle of Akhenaton's deviation from ancient Egyptian tradition. In fact, if Osman's contentions are correct, many of the major Old Testament figures are of Egyptian origin."
- From the back cover
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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fivepointer
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Marcos writes:
By assuming that I am 'damned' by God simply tells the readers here that you must somehow 'Be' God - which is exactly what I have been saying as well.
I am not saying that you are damned by God. For all I know you may be one of God's elect. I am saying you are currently unregenerate. All regenerate people believe the "gospel", which is a term used to describe the essential doctrines of the person and work of Christ.
Christians are called to fellowship with other believers, therefore they know what constitutes what a believer is and is not. Belief always contains doctrine. The doctrines you declare are not doctrines that a Christian would believe. Knowledge of doctrine does not save a person, but doctrine is an immediate fruit shown in conversion. Everyone who is saved believes the same gospel immediately upon conversion. You have been admonished several times and refuse to repent and believe. The only reason I continue to dialog with you is because this is a public forum and others read these postings, so they are being instructed against the heresies you are proclaiming.
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psyka
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5392165 - 03/12/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Does god look like a hairly ape, fivepointer?
If we were created in his image, he must!
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
 
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Disco Cat
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: psyka]
#5392190 - 03/12/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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That dude lives next door, why didn't he ever tell me he was God? Uh oh, I was macking on his wife too! Fire and brimstone fer me
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5392278 - 03/12/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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"Everyone who is saved believes the same gospel immediately upon conversion. You have been admonished several times and refuse to repent and believe."
You are wrong, and what is more, you are ignorant of the history of Christian thought. Early battles were waged for uniformity in doctrine and the battle was won by 'The Holy Roman Empire.' The Nicean Creed was established, and anyone who was disagreed with said doctrine was declared anathema - a heretic. Such individuals became persecuted with increasing ferocity and violence.
Now here you are, a law-and-order type of individual who takes personal affront at an individual who has seen through the falsehoods of long-established 'Christian' imperialism - the same kind of imperialism that characterized the Roman Empire. If you actually 'could' be in charge, with your emotional tenor, you would reinstate persecutions of anyone who disagreed with the byline that you maintain.
Calling me "unregenerate" is again, just name-calling on your part. There is no truth in your self-righteous pontifications and criticisms of my interpretation of scriptures. The interpretations that I hold were supressed and all but eliminated with violence by so-called 'Christians.' Thank God for the lonely monk[s] saw fit to bury their library at Nag Hammadi before their persecutors could find it and burn it along with them! And THIS is the evil mentality that you promulgate! Religious tyranny and control in the name of what? Christ? You obviously do not Know Christ or spiritual freedom would be the banner of your crusade.
Who died and made you boss? I would not have you ignorant, but I can't force MY beliefs on you as you would force your beliefs on me. At your back is a whole history of religious persecution in the name of peace - the peace of those silenced by death for their religious dissidence.
I have been "admonished" by you? Admonished ?! You, lad, are quite mad. You are not in a position to admonish me. Like 'Coco the Clown,' emerging from the ink well of a Max Fleischer cartoon, you may fancy yourself as emerging from the pages of a Holy Bible, a disciple of the LORD, out to dispel false doctrine in the name of the LORD, when in reality you are at the surface of things just another generation of religious bigotry, part of the problem, not part of the solution. It's not about 'us' and 'them,' it's about 'us-ness.' In Christ, there is 'us-ness.' Differences dissolve in the Universal Consciousness of Christ. Wake up - you're living a nightmare.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR
Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5392356 - 03/12/06 03:52 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Knowledge of doctrine does not save a person, but doctrine is an immediate fruit shown in conversion. Everyone who is saved believes the same gospel immediately upon conversion.
Like I said I was at a bible College for a couple years. Every week - two weeks we would have a different instructor come in from around the world to teach us, and these were the "big name" christian authors, muscicians, crusaders, missionaries etc. who are making all the marks in the crowd today. Never, I repeat Never did any two of them teach us an identical theology. More often than not the professor of one week would contradict the professors of the previous weeks. Many times it would be their key points that would be contadicted. Even the school's adminastrations concepts clashed with the teachers, and there would often be debates in the middle of classes over what is the message in the scripture.
The loopier people believed out of unquestioned superstition, like you are doing fivepointer, and had the least sound doctrines to teach. Everyone in that school disagreed with someone about a major issue of the bible's teachings.
There is still a solid truth to what is meant in all verses, but it is never seen by those who are thinking like you, and thus it is rarely seen in a setting such as a bible college.
So now that even you are aware that it is undeniable fact that people are not in harmony with their beliefs once they dogmatically accept Jesus, can you let go of the sinking ship you're holding on to and be "saved" for real?
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psyka
Praetorian
Registered: 06/09/03
Posts: 1,652
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No shit.
Follow your own, path. Drop this baggage and feel the freedom of an unburdened mind. You need to allow yourself to just be, without hindering yourself with such strict opinions.
fivepointer: ask yourself this. How many religions are there, and how many are older than Christianity? What makes Christianity so correct and the others flawed?
One could write a holy book, with a collection of fortune cookies. I spit constellations, btw.
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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.
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fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Disco Cat]
#5392718 - 03/12/06 05:38 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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So now that even you are aware that it is undeniable fact that people are not in harmony with their beliefs once they dogmatically accept Jesus, can you let go of the sinking ship you're holding on to and be "saved" for real?
My ship is not sinking, it is in calm waters.
Just because "big name" or a grand theologian of mighty reputation brings a doctrine does this make it true? Truth is not a function of numbers of people that hold to it or of reputation. One does not arrive at doctrine based on the opinions of men. Any truth must come from above, God Himself teaches His people, they do not hear the voice of strangers. Man can not teach another man what the gospel is, it must come in power and truth and the Spirit.
You are equating salvation with "dogmatic acceptance of Jesus" and conclude that since they "dogmatically accepted" therefore they are saved, and since they are saved and all hold to different doctrines on essential points, this proves that essential doctrine is really not important.
Zeal and reputation does not equate to truth. The gospel is not some vague unknowable mass of jumbled doctrines that no one can figure out. It is clearly defined. The fact that you can not discern what the gospel is and is not exposes that it has never been revealed to you.
What is it that separates the damned from the saved? According to you it is the meritorious act of "dogmatic acceptance". This becomes the ground of why a person is saved or lost. This is a false ground, it is salvation by works, it is damnable. The only ground of salvation is the atoning work and imputed righteousness of Christ ALONE, apart from any works or merits. Christ saved His people and imputes His righteousness to them, and makes them a new creation. All this is done FREELY, without respect to anything they have done. Those ignorant of free grace are lost.
If I have misrepresented your position I am sure you will correct me.
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR
Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5393056 - 03/12/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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fivepointer, you absolutely misrepresented what I said in all ways.
My post had nothing to do with who claims what, or what saves a person, but showed that nobody's doctine is identical once they are, what you call, "saved."
So since your argument, that all people believe the same once they accept salvation through Christ, is a lie, now what will you claim?
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leery11
I Tell You What!
Registered: 06/24/05
Posts: 5,998
Last seen: 8 years, 2 months
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5394930 - 03/13/06 11:35 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
As usual Marcos produces psycho-babble dribble.
You need to repent of your Gnostic heresies and believe God's Word.
You need to repent of your non-Gnostic heresies and believe God's Word.
Don't you see this goes no where? You believe. Others believe. Such things do not change. But by denying the very opportunity to have an intelligent debate with someone, you paint yourself as stubborn, rigid, and narrow-minded to the eyes of all except those who are the same as you.
Someone who HAS spirituality does not go up to someone else who has spirituality and tell them that their form is wrong. The enlightened Buddhist greets warmly the enlightened Christian.... and likewise in reversal.
If you build your beliefs off words, your beliefs will never be accurate. Do you think this sentence .... this compliation of sentences.... means anything? If in 10 thousand years the shroomery is compiled as a holy book do you think people are going to interpret this discussion accurately?
God is NOT words. God CANNOT be words. Symbol is SYMBOL and symbol CANNOT be truth, symbol only POINTS YOU TOWARD truth. Symbol encapsulates truth but in doing so limits the potency and amount of said truth. It is a reference point in a jounrey to true unburdened understanding.
"God" is not God. God is formless, God is beyond description.
This is what the daoists understand... not only do they have a symbol for "god" (Tao) but they assert that this symbol is NOT god and is only a concept encapsulating that which is really true.
If you take ancient text literally while denying any concept of CONTEXT or metaphor, then you are missing the big picture.
Let's assume the Bible is the word of God......... why do you assume that the English version is correct? Do you not think that perhaps the language which it was originally mainly written in would be more accurate? How do you account for the various misinterpretations that result from lingual barriers that say a Hebrew reads the old testament in Hebrew and gets a slightly different picture than one who reads a translation in English?
The word of God is found in the words of any man who is attempting to be truthful and live his life out of complete spirituality and devotion therein to this "God". Jesus was a parable of such a man...... an example. A metaphor of how we are to live.
All these things I say are true for they are the literal truth. If you do not believe me you will endure tremendously heinous sufferings for one millionth of a second. Lo this must be, for I decree it must be. If you disagree you are misled and are committing blasphemy against the truth as according to Leery11.
Do you see a problem with that? The Bible is just as true and untrue as any other holy book, they all tell the SAME STORY with DIFFERENT LANGUAGES and PERSPECTIVES.
If there were only one true path all people would be Christians and have different sects of Christianity.
You are ignoring the source of inspiriation which created this "Bible" (assuming it was not written by oppressive mainpulators) and all spiritual writers draw from the same source.
To claim someone else is wrong is to automatically claim that you are wrong. There are great spiritual people of all faiths, to say that they are misled is to denote that you have not yet seen as much as they have. Words only take you so far.
As the Buddha said, paraphrased terribly, my teachings are only training wheels, once you learn to ride the bike they are to be abandoned.
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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (03/13/06 11:46 AM)
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: leery11]
#5395196 - 03/13/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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ngnyus
the madherbalist
Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: niteowl]
#5457279 - 03/29/06 09:20 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I have stayed at the nyingma institute of Tibetan Buddhism in Berkley, studied the wiccan way, took three years of full time bible college, and read books on every religion I could find, and still believe that we have all been mislead. The Christians state that the bible is perfect, but I read Greek and I can tell you many contradictions that have been hidden by modern translations. If you think I'm a liar read the two accounts of the conversion of Paul in acts. In one it states those who were around him heard a voice (akuo) and the other says they did not (ouk akuo).
Don't want to ramble on in attempt to pop both of your bubbles, but on the other hand the modern day geological theories are being disproven all the time. In the eruption of mount St. Helen layers of strata assumed to take millions of years to form were created in only a couple of years, trees were fossilized, and canyons were created. Also, a few years back,a living horseshoe crab was carbon dated as being dead for 2 million years as a gnostic your search for knowledge must be accompanied by opened mindedness and faith. The title of the Pistus Sophia means faith wisdom, without faith there is knowledge but no wisdom.
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You reap what you sow
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Disco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR
Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: ngnyus]
#5462111 - 03/30/06 11:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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I'd love to hear some of what you've learned in your studies, ngnyus. Modern bible translations are definitely sketchy, can you tell some of the things you've learned from the Greek sources?
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ngnyus
the madherbalist
Registered: 03/27/06
Posts: 519
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Disco Cat]
#5469434 - 04/01/06 10:36 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sure. First of all I don't fully agree with the canon of the new testament as it now stands. The early Church used several books which were not included;
the Revelation of Peter,
the Wisdom of Solomon,
the Shepard of Hermas,
the letter of Barnabas, just to start.
There are a few modern english translations of these, yet these are most often more inaccurate than the translations of the new testament, since they are now considered heretical, and do not have the funding of the christian church. Run a search and I bet you might be able to find some of these english translations if you think it's worth your time. Also, when Paul wrote that all scripture is inspired it is implied in both context, and original wording that he is referring to the Old Testament, (all the books we now read were not even written yet). Therefore the inconsistencies in all four of the gospels accounts of the resurrection are not quite so amazing. I believe that followers of Christ often spend much to much time being irrational, beating our heads against the wall (and sometimes those of others) trying to reconcile the perfection of the Bible that isn't there, than of following His way. If you really want to know the will of the Christ in your life I recommend one thing. For a week leave your father and mother, wife, children, money and property,...take nothing but the clothes on your back, wander the earth, and maybe living as he did will give you more of a spiritual experience than anything we could ingest. I know it worked for me but everyones different.
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You reap what you sow
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
#5470208 - 04/02/06 07:25 AM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here is a lyric snippet from a song which may be appropriate in this context as well, "hell is for children."
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 3 months, 3 days
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 Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: leery11]
#5493026 - 04/08/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
leery11 said:
Quote:
fivepointer said:
As usual Marcos produces psycho-babble dribble.
You need to repent of your Gnostic heresies and believe God's Word.
You need to repent of your non-Gnostic heresies and believe God's Word.
Don't you see this goes no where? You believe. Others believe. Such things do not change. But by denying the very opportunity to have an intelligent debate with someone, you paint yourself as stubborn, rigid, and narrow-minded to the eyes of all except those who are the same as you.
Someone who HAS spirituality does not go up to someone else who has spirituality and tell them that their form is wrong. The enlightened Buddhist greets warmly the enlightened Christian.... and likewise in reversal.
If you build your beliefs off words, your beliefs will never be accurate. Do you think this sentence .... this compliation of sentences.... means anything? If in 10 thousand years the shroomery is compiled as a holy book do you think people are going to interpret this discussion accurately?
God is NOT words. God CANNOT be words. Symbol is SYMBOL and symbol CANNOT be truth, symbol only POINTS YOU TOWARD truth. Symbol encapsulates truth but in doing so limits the potency and amount of said truth. It is a reference point in a jounrey to true unburdened understanding.
"God" is not God. God is formless, God is beyond description.
This is what the daoists understand... not only do they have a symbol for "god" (Tao) but they assert that this symbol is NOT god and is only a concept encapsulating that which is really true.
If you take ancient text literally while denying any concept of CONTEXT or metaphor, then you are missing the big picture.
Let's assume the Bible is the word of God......... why do you assume that the English version is correct? Do you not think that perhaps the language which it was originally mainly written in would be more accurate? How do you account for the various misinterpretations that result from lingual barriers that say a Hebrew reads the old testament in Hebrew and gets a slightly different picture than one who reads a translation in English?
The word of God is found in the words of any man who is attempting to be truthful and live his life out of complete spirituality and devotion therein to this "God". Jesus was a parable of such a man...... an example. A metaphor of how we are to live.
All these things I say are true for they are the literal truth. If you do not believe me you will endure tremendously heinous sufferings for one millionth of a second. Lo this must be, for I decree it must be. If you disagree you are misled and are committing blasphemy against the truth as according to Leery11.
Do you see a problem with that? The Bible is just as true and untrue as any other holy book, they all tell the SAME STORY with DIFFERENT LANGUAGES and PERSPECTIVES.
If there were only one true path all people would be Christians and have different sects of Christianity.
You are ignoring the source of inspiriation which created this "Bible" (assuming it was not written by oppressive mainpulators) and all spiritual writers draw from the same source.
To claim someone else is wrong is to automatically claim that you are wrong. There are great spiritual people of all faiths, to say that they are misled is to denote that you have not yet seen as much as they have. Words only take you so far.
As the Buddha said, paraphrased terribly, my teachings are only training wheels, once you learn to ride the bike they are to be abandoned.
You can say that again! 
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 4 months, 16 days
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
It's not about 'us' and 'them,' it's about 'us-ness.' In Christ, there is 'us-ness.' Differences dissolve in the Universal Consciousness of Christ. Wake up - you're living a nightmare.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 2 years, 4 months
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
#5493344 - 04/08/06 03:05 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
It's not about 'us' and 'them,' it's about 'us-ness.' In Christ, there is 'us-ness.' Differences dissolve in the Universal Consciousness of Christ. Wake up - you're living a nightmare.
Thanks for the fireworks_god, but is just not gonna help me in a debate with a Fundamentalist! 
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mikeownow
Humungus fungus
Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 2,856
Loc: WA,USA
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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I took a crap and out came a bible
--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 4 months, 16 days
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Thanks for the fireworks_god, but is just not gonna help me in a debate with a Fundamentalist!
Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Come on, people, let's wrap this up here. Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on. There is no point in attempting to use logic, reason, and thinking in order to change viewpoints in this, not even for the impressionable youth.
By the way, you seem to have a recurring problem with typing your replies to a quotation within the quotation itself. You're going to Hell in a handbasket for that!
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: mikeownow]
#5493472 - 04/08/06 03:41 PM (17 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
mikeownow said:
I took a crap and out came a bible
When the doctors tell us to add more fiber to our diets, I think they mean for us to eat more, grains, fruits and veggies, not books of fibrous paper.  But hey, what ever works to keep your system running smoothly.
 
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Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 4 months, 16 days
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A bit of papyrus never hurt anyone (unless there was a death sentence writ upon it).
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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