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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5392278 - 03/12/06 05:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"Everyone who is saved believes the same gospel immediately upon conversion. You have been admonished several times and refuse to repent and believe."

You are wrong, and what is more, you are ignorant of the history of Christian thought. Early battles were waged for uniformity in doctrine and the battle was won by 'The Holy Roman Empire.' The Nicean Creed was established, and anyone who was disagreed with said doctrine was declared anathema - a heretic. Such individuals became persecuted with increasing ferocity and violence.

Now here you are, a law-and-order type of individual who takes personal affront at an individual who has seen through the falsehoods of long-established 'Christian' imperialism - the same kind of imperialism that characterized the Roman Empire. If you actually 'could' be in charge, with your emotional tenor, you would reinstate persecutions of anyone who disagreed with the byline that you maintain.

Calling me "unregenerate" is again, just name-calling on your part. There is no truth in your self-righteous pontifications and criticisms of my interpretation of scriptures. The interpretations that I hold were supressed and all but eliminated with violence by so-called 'Christians.' Thank God for the lonely monk[s] saw fit to bury their library at Nag Hammadi before their persecutors could find it and burn it along with them! And THIS is the evil mentality that you promulgate! Religious tyranny and control in the name of what? Christ? You obviously do not Know Christ or spiritual freedom would be the banner of your crusade.

Who died and made you boss? I would not have you ignorant, but I can't force MY beliefs on you as you would force your beliefs on me. At your back is a whole history of religious persecution in the name of peace - the peace of those silenced by death for their religious dissidence.

I have been "admonished" by you? Admonished ?! You, lad, are quite mad. You are not in a position to admonish me. Like 'Coco the Clown,' emerging from the ink well of a Max Fleischer cartoon, you may fancy yourself as emerging from the pages of a Holy Bible, a disciple of the LORD, out to dispel false doctrine in the name of the LORD, when in reality you are at the surface of things just another generation of religious bigotry, part of the problem, not part of the solution. It's not about 'us' and 'them,' it's about 'us-ness.' In Christ, there is 'us-ness.' Differences dissolve in the Universal Consciousness of Christ. Wake up - you're living a nightmare.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/16/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5392356 - 03/12/06 05:52 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
Knowledge of doctrine does not save a person, but doctrine is an immediate fruit shown in conversion. Everyone who is saved believes the same gospel immediately upon conversion.




Like I said I was at a bible College for a couple years. Every week - two weeks we would have a different instructor come in from around the world to teach us, and these were the "big name" christian authors, muscicians, crusaders, missionaries etc. who are making all the marks in the crowd today. Never, I repeat Never did any two of them teach us an identical theology. More often than not the professor of one week would contradict the professors of the previous weeks. Many times it would be their key points that would be contadicted. Even the school's adminastrations concepts clashed with the teachers, and there would often be debates in the middle of classes over what is the message in the scripture.

The loopier people believed out of unquestioned superstition, like you are doing fivepointer, and had the least sound doctrines to teach. Everyone in that school disagreed with someone about a major issue of the bible's teachings.
There is still a solid truth to what is meant in all verses, but it is never seen by those who are thinking like you, and thus it is rarely seen in a setting such as a bible college.

So now that even you are aware that it is undeniable fact that people are not in harmony with their beliefs once they dogmatically accept Jesus, can you let go of the sinking ship you're holding on to and be "saved" for real?


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5392389 - 03/12/06 06:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

No shit.

Follow your own, path. Drop this baggage and feel the freedom of an unburdened mind. You need to allow yourself to just be, without hindering yourself with such strict opinions.

fivepointer: ask yourself this. How many religions are there, and how many are older than Christianity? What makes Christianity so correct and the others flawed?

One could write a holy book, with a collection of fortune cookies. I spit constellations, btw.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Offlinefivepointer
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Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5392718 - 03/12/06 07:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

So now that even you are aware that it is undeniable fact that people are not in harmony with their beliefs once they dogmatically accept Jesus, can you let go of the sinking ship you're holding on to and be "saved" for real?

My ship is not sinking, it is in calm waters.

Just because "big name" or a grand theologian of mighty reputation brings a doctrine does this make it true? Truth is not a function of numbers of people that hold to it or of reputation. One does not arrive at doctrine based on the opinions of men. Any truth must come from above, God Himself teaches His people, they do not hear the voice of strangers. Man can not teach another man what the gospel is, it must come in power and truth and the Spirit.

You are equating salvation with "dogmatic acceptance of Jesus" and conclude that since they "dogmatically accepted" therefore they are saved, and since they are saved and all hold to different doctrines on essential points, this proves that essential doctrine is really not important.

Zeal and reputation does not equate to truth. The gospel is not some vague unknowable mass of jumbled doctrines that no one can figure out. It is clearly defined. The fact that you can not discern what the gospel is and is not exposes that it has never been revealed to you.

What is it that separates the damned from the saved? According to you it is the meritorious act of "dogmatic acceptance". This becomes the ground of why a person is saved or lost. This is a false ground, it is salvation by works, it is damnable. The only ground of salvation is the atoning work and imputed righteousness of Christ ALONE, apart from any works or merits. Christ saved His people and imputes His righteousness to them, and makes them a new creation. All this is done FREELY, without respect to anything they have done. Those ignorant of free grace are lost.

If I have misrepresented your position I am sure you will correct me.


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Registered: 09/16/00
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5393056 - 03/12/06 09:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

fivepointer, you absolutely misrepresented what I said in all ways.

My post had nothing to do with who claims what, or what saves a person, but showed that nobody's doctine is identical once they are, what you call, "saved."

So since your argument, that all people believe the same once they accept salvation through Christ, is a lie, now what will you claim?


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/25/05
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5394930 - 03/13/06 01:35 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

fivepointer said:
As usual Marcos produces psycho-babble dribble.

You need to repent of your Gnostic heresies and believe God's Word.



You need to repent of your non-Gnostic heresies and believe God's Word.

Don't you see this goes no where? You believe. Others believe. Such things do not change. But by denying the very opportunity to have an intelligent debate with someone, you paint yourself as stubborn, rigid, and narrow-minded to the eyes of all except those who are the same as you.

Someone who HAS spirituality does not go up to someone else who has spirituality and tell them that their form is wrong. The enlightened Buddhist greets warmly the enlightened Christian.... and likewise in reversal.

If you build your beliefs off words, your beliefs will never be accurate. Do you think this sentence .... this compliation of sentences.... means anything? If in 10 thousand years the shroomery is compiled as a holy book do you think people are going to interpret this discussion accurately?

God is NOT words. God CANNOT be words. Symbol is SYMBOL and symbol CANNOT be truth, symbol only POINTS YOU TOWARD truth. Symbol encapsulates truth but in doing so limits the potency and amount of said truth. It is a reference point in a jounrey to true unburdened understanding.

"God" is not God. God is formless, God is beyond description.

This is what the daoists understand... not only do they have a symbol for "god" (Tao) but they assert that this symbol is NOT god and is only a concept encapsulating that which is really true.

If you take ancient text literally while denying any concept of CONTEXT or metaphor, then you are missing the big picture.

Let's assume the Bible is the word of God......... why do you assume that the English version is correct? Do you not think that perhaps the language which it was originally mainly written in would be more accurate? How do you account for the various misinterpretations that result from lingual barriers that say a Hebrew reads the old testament in Hebrew and gets a slightly different picture than one who reads a translation in English?

The word of God is found in the words of any man who is attempting to be truthful and live his life out of complete spirituality and devotion therein to this "God". Jesus was a parable of such a man...... an example. A metaphor of how we are to live.

All these things I say are true for they are the literal truth. If you do not believe me you will endure tremendously heinous sufferings for one millionth of a second. Lo this must be, for I decree it must be. If you disagree you are misled and are committing blasphemy against the truth as according to Leery11.

Do you see a problem with that? The Bible is just as true and untrue as any other holy book, they all tell the SAME STORY with DIFFERENT LANGUAGES and PERSPECTIVES.

If there were only one true path all people would be Christians and have different sects of Christianity.

You are ignoring the source of inspiriation which created this "Bible" (assuming it was not written by oppressive mainpulators) and all spiritual writers draw from the same source.

To claim someone else is wrong is to automatically claim that you are wrong. There are great spiritual people of all faiths, to say that they are misled is to denote that you have not yet seen as much as they have. Words only take you so far.

As the Buddha said, paraphrased terribly, my teachings are only training wheels, once you learn to ride the bike they are to be abandoned.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (03/13/06 01:46 PM)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: leery11]
    #5395196 - 03/13/06 03:06 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:congrats::congrats::congrats::congrats:
:congrats::congrats::congrats::congrats:
:congrats::congrats::congrats::congrats:
:congrats::congrats::congrats::congrats:


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Offlinengnyus
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: niteowl]
    #5457279 - 03/29/06 11:20 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have stayed at the nyingma institute of Tibetan Buddhism in Berkley, studied the wiccan way, took three years of full time bible college, and read books on every religion I could find, and still believe that we have all been mislead. The Christians state that the bible is perfect, but I read Greek and I can tell you many contradictions that have been hidden by modern translations. If you think I'm a liar read the two accounts of the conversion of Paul in acts. In one it states those who were around him heard a voice (akuo) and the other says they did not (ouk akuo).
Don't want to ramble on in attempt to pop both of your bubbles, but on the other hand the modern day geological theories are being disproven all the time. In the eruption of mount St. Helen layers of strata assumed to take millions of years to form were created in only a couple of years, trees were fossilized, and canyons were created. Also, a few years back,a living horseshoe crab was carbon dated as being dead for 2 million years as a gnostic your search for knowledge must be accompanied by opened mindedness and faith. The title of the Pistus Sophia means faith wisdom, without faith there is knowledge but no wisdom.


--------------------

You reap what you sow


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InvisibleDisco Cat
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: ngnyus]
    #5462111 - 03/31/06 01:13 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'd love to hear some of what you've learned in your studies, ngnyus. Modern bible translations are definitely sketchy, can you tell some of the things you've learned from the Greek sources?


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Offlinengnyus
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5469434 - 04/02/06 12:36 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Sure. First of all I don't fully agree with the canon of the new testament as it now stands. The early Church used several books which were not included;
the Revelation of Peter,
the Wisdom of Solomon,
the Shepard of Hermas,
the letter of Barnabas, just to start.
There are a few modern english translations of these, yet these are most often more inaccurate than the translations of the new testament, since they are now considered heretical, and do not have the funding of the christian church. Run a search and I bet you might be able to find some of these english translations if you think it's worth your time. Also, when Paul wrote that all scripture is inspired it is implied in both context, and original wording that he is referring to the Old Testament, (all the books we now read were not even written yet). Therefore the inconsistencies in all four of the gospels accounts of the resurrection are not quite so amazing. I believe that followers of Christ often spend much to much time being irrational, beating our heads against the wall (and sometimes those of others) trying to reconcile the perfection of the Bible that isn't there, than of following His way. If you really want to know the will of the Christ in your life I recommend one thing. For a week leave your father and mother, wife, children, money and property,...take nothing but the clothes on your back, wander the earth, and maybe living as he did will give you more of a spiritual experience than anything we could ingest. I know it worked for me but everyones different.


--------------------

You reap what you sow


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InvisibleAutonomous
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Registered: 05/10/02
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fivepointer]
    #5470208 - 04/02/06 09:25 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Here is a lyric snippet from a song which may be appropriate in this context as well, "hell is for children."


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain


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OfflineGomp
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: leery11]
    #5493026 - 04/08/06 03:18 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
Quote:

fivepointer said:
As usual Marcos produces psycho-babble dribble.

You need to repent of your Gnostic heresies and believe God's Word.



You need to repent of your non-Gnostic heresies and believe God's Word.

Don't you see this goes no where? You believe. Others believe. Such things do not change. But by denying the very opportunity to have an intelligent debate with someone, you paint yourself as stubborn, rigid, and narrow-minded to the eyes of all except those who are the same as you.

Someone who HAS spirituality does not go up to someone else who has spirituality and tell them that their form is wrong. The enlightened Buddhist greets warmly the enlightened Christian.... and likewise in reversal.

If you build your beliefs off words, your beliefs will never be accurate. Do you think this sentence .... this compliation of sentences.... means anything? If in 10 thousand years the shroomery is compiled as a holy book do you think people are going to interpret this discussion accurately?

God is NOT words. God CANNOT be words. Symbol is SYMBOL and symbol CANNOT be truth, symbol only POINTS YOU TOWARD truth. Symbol encapsulates truth but in doing so limits the potency and amount of said truth. It is a reference point in a jounrey to true unburdened understanding.

"God" is not God. God is formless, God is beyond description.

This is what the daoists understand... not only do they have a symbol for "god" (Tao) but they assert that this symbol is NOT god and is only a concept encapsulating that which is really true.

If you take ancient text literally while denying any concept of CONTEXT or metaphor, then you are missing the big picture.

Let's assume the Bible is the word of God......... why do you assume that the English version is correct? Do you not think that perhaps the language which it was originally mainly written in would be more accurate? How do you account for the various misinterpretations that result from lingual barriers that say a Hebrew reads the old testament in Hebrew and gets a slightly different picture than one who reads a translation in English?

The word of God is found in the words of any man who is attempting to be truthful and live his life out of complete spirituality and devotion therein to this "God". Jesus was a parable of such a man...... an example. A metaphor of how we are to live.

All these things I say are true for they are the literal truth. If you do not believe me you will endure tremendously heinous sufferings for one millionth of a second. Lo this must be, for I decree it must be. If you disagree you are misled and are committing blasphemy against the truth as according to Leery11.

Do you see a problem with that? The Bible is just as true and untrue as any other holy book, they all tell the SAME STORY with DIFFERENT LANGUAGES and PERSPECTIVES.

If there were only one true path all people would be Christians and have different sects of Christianity.

You are ignoring the source of inspiriation which created this "Bible" (assuming it was not written by oppressive mainpulators) and all spiritual writers draw from the same source.

To claim someone else is wrong is to automatically claim that you are wrong. There are great spiritual people of all faiths, to say that they are misled is to denote that you have not yet seen as much as they have. Words only take you so far.

As the Buddha said, paraphrased terribly, my teachings are only training wheels, once you learn to ride the bike they are to be abandoned.




You can say that again!  :grin: :thumbup:




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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5493084 - 04/08/06 03:31 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
It's not about 'us' and 'them,' it's about 'us-ness.' In Christ, there is 'us-ness.' Differences dissolve in the Universal Consciousness of Christ. Wake up - you're living a nightmare.




:thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5493344 - 04/08/06 05:05 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
It's not about 'us' and 'them,' it's about 'us-ness.' In Christ, there is 'us-ness.' Differences dissolve in the Universal Consciousness of Christ. Wake up - you're living a nightmare.




:thumbup:

Thanks for the :thumbup: fireworks_god, but :satansmoking: is just not gonna help me in a debate with a Fundamentalist!  :smile:


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Offlinemikeownow
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Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 2,856
Loc: WA,USA
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5493396 - 04/08/06 05:18 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

I took a crap and out came a bible


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #5493417 - 04/08/06 05:25 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MarkostheGnostic said:
Thanks for the :thumbup: fireworks_god, but :satansmoking: is just not gonna help me in a debate with a Fundamentalist!  :smile:




Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Come on, people, let's wrap this up here. Fivepointer returns from the mountain every few months with some assemblage of Biblical quotes and it all goes a lot smoother if you just let him get it over with and move on. There is no point in attempting to use logic, reason, and thinking in order to change viewpoints in this, not even for the impressionable youth.







:wink:

By the way, you seem to have a recurring problem with typing your replies to a quotation within the quotation itself. :grin: You're going to Hell in a handbasket for that!  :tongue:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: mikeownow]
    #5493472 - 04/08/06 05:41 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

mikeownow said:
I took a crap and out came a bible




When the doctors tell us to add more fiber to our diets, I think they mean for us to eat more, grains, fruits and veggies, not books of fibrous paper. :crazy: But hey, what ever works to keep your system running smoothly.  :wink:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Male

Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: The Biblical doctrine of Hell [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5493528 - 04/08/06 06:00 PM (15 years, 7 months ago)

A bit of papyrus never hurt anyone (unless there was a death sentence writ upon it). :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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