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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement
    #3964741 - 03/24/05 02:21 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

free will is a rope ladder to God.

But many chose to hang themselves with this rope instead of climbing it.

To them I say, "Que Lastima"- What a shame, what a waste.

Though their fates are not mine, I pity them, even as I use them as a rung in my climb to the top.

For he who does not redeem himself by his own free will shall be judged despite it.


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 93,974
Loc: underbelly
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3964753 - 03/24/05 02:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

And who exactally is this who will be doing the judgement. Besides you I mean.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Icelander]
    #3964781 - 03/24/05 02:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

yo mamma


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3964829 - 03/24/05 02:38 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

free will is a rope ladder to God.

If God knows everything, then he already knows what choices someone with free will will make, thus negating free will.

So, either God is omniscient, OR there is free will, but not both.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Stranger
 Arcade Champion: Frogger

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,451
Loc: space
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3964871 - 03/24/05 02:46 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

wow, I've never heard that before

:lol:

why do you assume that the universe is a logical place?


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3964888 - 03/24/05 02:50 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

why do you assume that the universe is a logical place?

It might not be, but so far, I haven't found any reason to believe it's not logical.

Why do you assume that the universe is illogical?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 230
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3964908 - 03/24/05 02:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I don't see how your "logical" assumption makes sense. Can you explain a bit more?


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


Edited by Delusion_of_Self (03/24/05 02:57 PM)


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OfflineKungFu_Shaman
naive and lovingit

Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 191
Loc: noitacaol cihpargoeg
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3964912 - 03/24/05 02:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry DoctorJ - If God exists, then Free Will cannot exist, it is logically inconsistent for there to be both Free Will and God


--------------------
Feel the wrath of Skeletor's breakfast burrito!


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: DoctorJ]
    #3964922 - 03/24/05 02:59 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Free Will is both a great gift and a great curse that God has bestowed upon Mankind.

It is a gift because it means that we have freedom.

It is a curse because we are so imperfect that we cannot be expected to live up to His expectations and hopes. He made a world that is so vile and removed from His perfection. How can any man (no matter how strong) consistently strive for God and His Will?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: KungFu_Shaman]
    #3964938 - 03/24/05 03:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)


If God exists, then Free Will cannot exist, it is logically inconsistent for there to be both Free Will and God

That is not true. It is in the realm of possibility that God exists and that he allows us freedom of thought and action.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3964958 - 03/24/05 03:08 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I don't see how your "logical" assumption makes sense. Can you explain a bit more?

Sure.

Let's say a traveler with free will arrives at a fork in the road. He has a choice to go left or go right. Let's also say that God is omniscient and knows ahead of time that the traveler will go left.

Well, if God knows the traveler will go left, then either the traveler has no choice but to go left by virtue of God foreknowledge, or the traveler goes right by his free will choice, thus rendering God wrong.

If God is right, the traveler has no free will and must go left as predicted. If the traveler has the possibility of going right and does, then God is wrong and not omniscient.

Now, if the universe is not logical, then all bets are off. But I've never found any reason to think that the universe is not logical, and the fact that you are reading and understanding this, using a computer, and discussing these points of philosophy all support the idea that the universe is logical or none of these activities, which rely on logic, would be taking place.

So, if you don't believe the universe operates logically, give me a concrete example of an illogical real-world thing.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 230
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Diploid]
    #3965118 - 03/24/05 03:50 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You assume that if "he" is omniscient somehow that contradicts free will. I still cannot see what you see because you still made the decision, in either case "he" just knew "beforehand" which one was. It's not like "he" decided for you.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965146 - 03/24/05 03:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

You assume that if "he" is omniscient somehow that contradicts free will.

No, there are no assumptions made except that God is omniscient and that the traveler has free will. Those are the only assumptions. What follows is just the necessary consequence of those two assumptions: a contradiction.

I still cannot see what you see because you still made the decision, in either case "he" just knew "beforehand" which one was. It's not like "he" decided for you.

Alright, let's say that God knows the traveler will go left. Now, is it possible for the traveler to choose to go right? And if it is, then what happens to God's omniscience if the traveler goes right?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (03/24/05 04:37 PM)


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 230
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965167 - 03/24/05 04:01 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What you cannot see is that it doesn't matter... the choice is one.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


Edited by Delusion_of_Self (03/24/05 04:06 PM)


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 230
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965184 - 03/24/05 04:04 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I should use the spelling checker :smile:


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965191 - 03/24/05 04:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What you cannot see it's that it doesn't matter the choice, the choice is one.

Well, if there is only one choice, then you're discussing a different scenario than I am and since there is only one choice, there is no free will involved.

My question, which you haven't answered, is:

Let's say that God knows the traveler will go left. Is it then possible for the traveler to go right? And if it is possible for the traveler to go right, then what happens to God's omniscience if the traveler does go right?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDelusion_of_Self
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 230
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965193 - 03/24/05 04:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

my engrish sucks


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


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OfflineKungFu_Shaman
naive and lovingit

Registered: 02/23/05
Posts: 191
Loc: noitacaol cihpargoeg
Last seen: 9 years, 4 months
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965196 - 03/24/05 04:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Diploid, you proved my point exactly. It, cannot logically work. God, being a perfect being is omniscient. Omniscience means that God knows all things, and therefore holds no false beliefs. It is therefore logically necessary for God to hold no false beliefs.

You come to a fork in the road. You can go one way (x) or the other (y). God knows beforehand (let's say 80 years ago) that you will take x. You must logically take route x, because taking route y would prove God's beliefs wrong,as you said. Since it is impossible for God to hold false beliefs, you cannot take y and must take x.

This proves to be a downfall of Free Will in the face of God. Divine Foreknowledge makes it IMPOSSIBLE for God not to know your actions ahead of time (i.e. it is necessary that he knows your actions ahead of time). Since this is so, if one has a "choice" between paths x and y, one must take what God has already foreseen (for reason stated above), there is no choice. Divine Foreknowledge cancels out any notion of Free Will.


--------------------
Feel the wrath of Skeletor's breakfast burrito!


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OfflineDelusion_of_Self
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 230
Last seen: 11 years, 9 months
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965212 - 03/24/05 04:11 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What you can't see is that it doesn't matter if he knows the eventual outcome that was your eventual choice.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Free Will, Redemption, and Judgement [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3965216 - 03/24/05 04:12 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

What you can't see is that it doesn't matter if he knows the eventual outcome that was your eventual choice.

Why won't you answer my question?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
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