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OfflineSir Tokes-A-Lot
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 3,084
Loc: San Francisco Bay Area
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
death and dying
    #396461 - 09/17/01 06:39 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

in light of the recent tragedies and deaths in dc/nyc, i have started thinking again about death. many religions and peoples believe in life after death, with good reason. i believe and know that death is impossible to comprehend, not being alive anymore, not having any thoughts at all, i cant even begin to understand that, it is so frightening. we need to make up excuses for this, we have to say "oh, you dont actually die, you exist through your soul in heaven, as an angel or whatever." some others say "oh you dont actually die, you return to earth reincarnated as an animal or another person or something."

i dont believe in this, and because i dont my brain goes insane trying to understand not existing, not having thoughts or anything like that. being dead. whenever i try to think about it, i get scared and try to stop thinking, because it is a horrible thing that i know will happen to me and everyone someday, whether it be tomorrow or in 70 years. How could you not be a conscious being? I don?t think the soul/mind can live without the functioning body. How does it all jus "stop" when you die? How could everything we have achieved and done in our lives just stop once we die? It scares me shitless. So from this, I believe that death is THE WORST MOST EVIL HEINOUS THING YOU COULD EVER DO TO ANYONE. It isnt just "oh, they are dead. one person, big deal" with that one person dying, all of their thoughts, everything they have ever done, is gone. because they are dead. I don?t think its like people can still think about it and watch over the earth when they are dead, because they are dead. oh jesus I cant even finish this post


God Bless America


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"If god liked midgets, he woulda made 'em come on stilts." - ChemicalMonkey


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"If god liked midgets, he woulda made 'em come on stilts."- ChemicalMonkey (The Early Years)


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InvisibleIshmael
enthusiast

Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: death and dying [Re: Sir Tokes-A-Lot]
    #396479 - 09/17/01 07:52 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

In the wake of what has happened death is on the mind of everyone in America. And not suprisingly, so is fear. Fear generated by what you Feel, S T-A-L. Our distant relatives, grandparents and great grandparents lived through experiences which were as close to analogous to this tragedy as you will find, but the one thing they had that most American do not have in our time is faith. Now I'm not advocating the faith of the past (or faith in anything but oneself), quite the opposite, but when confronting issues of death it is helpful to at least be honest with yourself in so much as concerning your own mental framework. You utilize words in the context of Consciousness such as Soul and Mind, Jesus... so you may want to reevaluate exactly /what/ it is you feel in reality - you may not be as atheistic as you think you are. Don't feel like I'm attacking you, it is merely a thought.

On the concept of death, I've long been convinced that the more fanciful notions about it that get passed around are alot of shit, to be blunt. People seem to experience exactly what they want to at the moment of death - projecting their own mental framework over the entire experience. In this context, death is exactly like life, in that the Mind distorts reality with its own special kind of gravity. And in this state of mental collapse, it would be quite easy for the mind to distort the concept of time (we do it quite readily when we sleep each night) so that the universe seems to become infinite and eternity becomes a very real piece of existence. Perhaps then the ten minutes or so after death where the brain still functions is only 10 minutes on the outside, while inside, it is eternity, god, heaven, unity, oneness...ect ect. It's just speculation, but in the state of death, in that very special piece of existence where reality finally breaks, cracks and shatters, it wouldn't make any difference. Subjectivity and Objectivtiy would be masterbatorial concepts at that point. Then after ten minutes of eternity, you slowly fade to void. It probably wouldn't be painful or scary, as you would have an eternity to sort everything out from your side of the experience. Then there simply would be nothing. Void, perfect unmitigated peace. No turbulence, no regret, no thought, just water in the depth of an ocean.

But what could this void be? It's the void that existed before you, the one you came /out/ of in birth and return to in death. In the native american tradition, life is just a glimmer between this state of void (though they refer to it more as a state of unity or oneness; though oneness and void can be considered the same); between states of non-being. This gives rise to phrases such as: 'We are all dead-men, it merely takes some of us longer to figure it out'. In a very real sense (not just speaking allegorically) everyone is already dead, not dying, but dead. We exist on the threshold of non-thought, non-existence...balanced perpetually on the precipice. A razor bridge with an infinitely deep pit on both sides. Console yourself on the fact that the people that died will likely not regret the fact that they did (though from a religious standpoint, it can be argued quite to the contrary). It is up to the living to regret their deaths, for us to carry that pain with us - or choose not to.

Ishmael



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InvisibleKid
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 07/22/00
Posts: 2,365
Re: death and dying [Re: Sir Tokes-A-Lot]
    #396515 - 09/17/01 09:32 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

> i have started thinking again about death.

Heh, I try and think about it once a day. Usually it's more.


> whenever i try to think about it, i get scared and try to stop thinking, because it is a horrible thing that i know will happen to me and everyone someday, whether it be tomorrow or in 70 years

It happens. One day you just ain't gonna be there no more. You won't matter to yourself. Lights out. Unconsciousness forever. Though, perhaps consciousness does carry on, but I'm highly skeptical of that.

> I don?t think the soul/mind can live without the functioning body. How does it all jus "stop" when you die?

If the mind is a functional aspect of the human nervous system, then it simply stops working. Much like shutting a computer off.

> death is THE WORST MOST EVIL HEINOUS THING YOU COULD EVER DO TO ANYONE.

Most people think like that. Not me. I'm a little curious to kill people just to see what it's like. To be responsible for taking a human's life. Just to get a glimpse of what it looks like. I don't think it's right or wrong.




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Offlineholographic mind
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Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 387
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: death and dying [Re: Sir Tokes-A-Lot]
    #396752 - 09/17/01 03:16 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Mushrooms have answered this question for me. you know it too tokes alot heh. there is no end.



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Offlinejonnyshaggs420
Pooh-Bah

Registered: 08/09/00
Posts: 1,965
Loc: Mid-West
Last seen: 11 years, 2 months
Re: death and dying [Re: Ishmael]
    #396783 - 09/17/01 03:48 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

That is honestly the best rendition of "death" that I've ever read. Thank you for posting your thoughts.

It doesn't worry me that I will die one day. I'll always be around in one way or another. After all energy cannot be created or destroyed. Hell, before I was human I was just random particles cruising through space, and thats what I'll become again someday. I don't think concsiousness ends but it is drastically altered upon death. I mean complete change here.

{Sporeman ripped me off}
For supplies: Dr Bluethumb
For spores: FSR


--------------------
Vote Jonnyshaggs in the next election for GOD...Its the responsible choice


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InvisibleHydro
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Registered: 03/31/01
Posts: 402
Loc: In your closet..
Re: death and dying [Re: Sir Tokes-A-Lot]
    #396898 - 09/17/01 06:05 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I used to feel that when you die, there is no more. Your entire reality is created and interpreted by your brain. When your brain no longer functions, neither does your reality. So there can?t be anything after life. So what does it matter.

I started asking myself the question, if there is nothing after death, then why am I here. Why is there life? There is no need for life if it all ends one day. Right? Though, the universe is chaos. So who is to say that life isn't just another form of meaningless chaos? We just get a short ride for no reason.

Eventually I started to feel I was answering some of these questions. Though, it will never be any more then a philosophy for anyone. At least for now. One day, science may be able to answer these questions with fact, but until that day we only speculate, and imagine. Here is my imagination run wild...

I feel energy is the key. I believe there is a form of energy ever present in all living things. Plants, animals, one-celled organisms, etc. When you die, your energy is released. If you are eaten by another animal in the wild, most of your energy would be passed on to that animal. Say we die and are berried in the ground. Then our energy would be released into the earth and into the organisms that feed on our dead carcass. This would in turn help those organisms live and create more life. I don't feel that your memories are kept anywhere. There is no need for that. Now, the question is... do we experience the rebirth, or do we just cease to exist? Do we have a connection with this energy? Time will only tell, or not. :-/ So, what I'm saying is I don't believe in an afterlife, only life. Though, I have a feeling this one isn't the only one we will experience. Eternity is a long, long time. I?d like to experience that eternity. ;-)

Hydro has spoken!
Please! Tell me about the fucking golf shoes!


--------------------
Hydro has spoken!
Please! Tell me about the fucking golf shoes!


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Offlineholographic mind
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Registered: 11/22/00
Posts: 387
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: death and dying [Re: Sir Tokes-A-Lot]
    #397123 - 09/17/01 10:43 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I wish death was the end. We are just a figment of an infinitely imaginitive mind. There is no escape from consciousness in one hellish form or another.



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Offlinegribochek
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Registered: 04/19/99
Posts: 286
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: death and dying [Re: Ishmael]
    #399321 - 09/20/01 06:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

When people say "Death is nothing to fear" for __whatever__ reason, whether it is because one gets reincarnated, or because we go to heaven or because we are already dead, doesn't matter, it occurs to me that this is like saying "Pain is nothing to fear because it will pass" or it is like saying "This explosive device is nothing to fear because it may miss you", in other words useless to those who fear death.

It occurs to me that when someone says "I am afraid of death" this is a starting point for him on the way of truth, it is time for him to stop and say "Why am I afraid of death?". I think death has been created exactly so this question could be asked. Assuming death is simply, __simply___, disappearence of all experiences and feelings and objects and everything that comes with disappearence of _yourself_ (indeed, at this time this _is_ our best guess), why fear it? What is it you are afraid of loosing? What is it you are attached to? If you can truthfully answer this question (no other question is more frightening, I swear!) you can stop being afraid of death, ideed of anything, ___anything___, and start being one happy and truthful and compassionate and shining and kind and strong and unpredictable and amazing motherfucker.

-------
just another attempt of a finger to point at itself


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InvisibleJared
Stranger
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 8,783
Re: death and dying [Re: Ishmael]
    #399375 - 09/20/01 07:40 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Ishmael: On your idea of the 10 minutes of thought after a person dies seeming infinte.. I've thought what if a person were to have a dream, where seconds took infinite time to pass? They would infact have an eternity to exist, they would never die because they would be alive for this eternity.. I beleive deeply about time being an illusion, a 3rd density concept, that we will one day (kind of contradictory here) be freed from. When on shrooms I've experienced single evenings which have seemed like days. What if there were such a drug that made time pass more even more slowly? To the point of where time would seem standstill. Would this drug infact be the drug of imortality? Supper time.. Fajita's... Mmm

Namaste


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InvisibleIshmael
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Registered: 10/29/99
Posts: 224
Re: death and dying [Re: Jared]
    #399924 - 09/21/01 02:03 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think of this much like I think of modern medicine. Modern medicine treats disease through the alleviation of symptoms (especially mental dis-ease). The time distortion of mushrooms is almost the opposite, but the reason I mention medicine is because the two thoughts (treating disease through elimination of symptoms and mushrooms /producing/ time distortion) rise from the same way of looking at things. I'll elaborate by answering the question...

Mushrooms /cause/ time distortion indirectly. Mushrooms do /very little/ directly, they give one the opportunity to experience the internal depths of mind but only the opportnity (People get the most out of mushrooms when they're /willing/. People who use them recreationally often relate their experiences in the blase' manner of half-boredom). What mushrooms have the potential for doing is allowing one to experience the sensation of ego-death. Ego and the human process of time regulation are wound up tightly together like DNA. The concept of 'time' as we think of it is a cultural artifact, one that is fairly easily exposed. I have a native american friend who lived on a reservation for a while. I visited him on several occasions, and one of the things I noticed most was that those that lived 'on the rez' and had grown up there usually didn't have a real good concept of time. I remember a couple occasions where I had dinner at eleven and cousins of my friend would show up at three in the morning wondering why we were sleeping. And this isn't uncommon, anthropologists (those from our collective culture who document others) notice this too, a 'primitive' unfamiliarity with time in the scales we think of it in. This doesn't mean that their version is /better/ or /worse/ than ours, just that they don't have the /same/ understanding of it as us and it positions them to have a totally different experience. Time is a phenomena which is relative to culture. Mushrooms have the potential to effect the region of ego that controls our constant awareness of the passage of time - causing it to disolve or falter (imagine your concept of time as being like your heartbeat - timebeat - mushrooms can make your timebeat slow, speed up or disappear completely). But what is important is that mushrooms arn't neccesarily doing this through mere chemical interactions, but are really causing a region of ego, of your cultural values and self identification, to dissolve revealing the true nature which has always been obscured. Which is in this case, that time doesn't exist without an observer any more than reality. Now for your theoretical drug...if you had a drug that caused time to 'stand still' what it would really be doing is revealing that time does not exist independent of an observer, and that with the loss of the observer time is lost as well. Mushrooms /can/ do what your theoretical 'timeless' drug does, they do it by causing ego-death. Immortaility is non-existance.

Ish



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