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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death)
    #1884327 - 09/05/03 10:10 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The main purpose of this post is to get you guys thoughts on hunting. Is it morally wrong? Is it wrong some other way? Is it only wrong if you don't eat what you kill?

Other animals hunt and kill, but they have no other means of survival. We have a choice (and probably a superior one) to able to live without killing other animals.

There are also many other good reasons for hunting such as populaton control, and ensuring a their numbers remain in a ratio condusive to their health. Are these suffcient justifications? Or simply excuses we to delude ourselves or others?

I still eat meat, and don't have any plans on stopping, although I have toyed with the idea. I am just trying to figure out my position on it.

I didn't intend to keep going with this post, but it made me remember some important events in my childhood relating to my fathers death and my experiences hunting. If anyone is inclined, I would love to hear some psychoanalysis on my problems with this.




When I was younger, I was an avid hunter.

I grew up around family that hunted, and they often brought me along.

When I was 8-9 years old, I remember the first animal I ever shot, a small finch. I had just gotten my first BB gun, a lever action Daisy , and had been target practicing all day. Although I had been on many hunts prior to that, I had never shot anything.

I'm still not sure of my motivation then, but as I was sitting at the picnic table, I saw yellow and grey finch light on a branch above me. I slowly raised the gun, took aim, and fired. The bird fell on top of the table in front of me.

I was suddenly stricken with horror. I picked the bird up, and realized it was still alive. It didn't fight or stuggle, it just seemed to look deep into my eyes. I looked it over, and found no wound. I didn't understand what had happened, so I went and found my dad.

I told him the story of what I did, and he also looked the bird over, and concluded that the low powered gun must have only dealt a glancing blow. He told me I must have only stunned him.

I felt so relieved that I hadn't killed him, and repeatedly thanked God for protecting the small creature.

I was going to watch him until he got the nerve to fly again, and vowed to never do it again.

A short time passed, and the condition of the bird had not changed as my father said it would. I begin to look over him again, and this time I found it. A small amount of blood had begun to seep from an invisible wound in his chest. I held him until he finally died, then went and buried him under a tree.

I don't remember exactly, but I think I told my father that he was ok, and had flown off.

I didn't hunt anymore after that until my father died at age 12.

Then, I suddenly took it up again, and it became an escape for me. As soon as I got home from school, I grabbed my (previously my fathers) shotgun and hit the woods. I wouldn't usually return until dark, or if I was rabbit hunting, not until early in the morning. Sometimes I would go alone, sometimes I had a friend or two I would hunt with.

Except for a couple of more transgressions though, which I still don't understand the motivation behind, I never killed anything I didn't eat.

During those times, I never felt bad or guilty for killing the animals. I continued to hunt until around 17, then found other interests.

I was recently over at a friends house, and was invited to go deer hunting with them this season. I was contemplating it, and while I was there, a squirrel was running through the tree tops. My friend ran to get his pellet gun, and killed the squirrel.

It was like I was 8-9 again. I didn't really react to my friend, but inside I just felt horrible to watch that animal die.

My father did hunt occasionaly, but wasn't a really avid hunter like I was. I guess I am just trying to figure out what that meant to me, and means to me now.

Any ideas?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineOook
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1884375 - 09/05/03 10:28 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I think hunting is ok as long as you eat what you kill and dont take the piss, eg. take a minigun out into the forest and kill anything living within a ten mile radius. It's poor that some hunters use invalid excuses like population control, I know it is sometimes true but not always and nature will sort out the animal levels anyway. Unless its something like the cane toads in australia but that was your own fault.

What do you mean to live without killing animals, do you mean buy them from a supermarket or wherever or not eat meat? If you buy them someone has to kill them and just because its not you doesnt make the possible morals of it any better(im not being trying to pick holes in what your saying im just asking).


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Invisibletak
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with deat [Re: Oook]
    #1884431 - 09/05/03 10:44 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Kill because you need to. Its a survival thing. You dont have to eat them, but dont do it unless they are gonna kill you. If you life is in danger, I think its okay...but even there who says your life is worth more than anyone elses. But with that said, they are pretty much equal, and its survival of the fittest.

I do not mean to attack you, or anything you believe/do, this is only my opinion, but I dont like alot of hunters personally. I think its some kinda of ego thing, that if you can kill more than anyone else, you are the best. It has nothing to do with skill level, because if it did people would be playing video games, it has to do with taking the most valuble thing to any living organism, its life.

I eat meat, i would really like not to, but i live in such a way thats its hard to stop. It sucks. You said it right, we do have a choice. It is possible.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1884442 - 09/05/03 10:49 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

My personal fantasy is to throw Pink into a small room with Ted Nugent and a weapon or two and lock the door. I would have a hidden camera installed and watch the fur fly baby!!


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1884474 - 09/05/03 10:59 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Seriously though, I think you probably felt like you did about the bird because you intuitively realized that that which is in you is in that bird and all life- consciousness. We like to fool ourselves into thinking that certain animals, like fish, can't feel pain. What baloney. Of course they feel pain! When I hear someone claim fish don't I just want to scream in their ear, "If I took a barbed hook and shoved it down your damn throat and started pulling on it do you think you'd feel pain?!"

Just because animals can't express their pain or prevent it doesn't mean they don't feel.



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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinedjd586
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: Jellric]
    #1884491 - 09/05/03 11:04 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I am a wildlife biolgist and part of my job managing wildlife populations in my state. Issuing hunting permits to the general public is an essential part in maintaining healthly wildlife populations. Without hunting, populatins exceed their carrying capacity, and over eat the required amount of food needed to sustain a healthy population. Soon after, the population crashes and enters a critical state. Disease and death run rampant and spread like wild fire through neighboring wildlife communities. The populations would then be left to go through a several year period of unatural and unhealthy population fluxuation.

As long as man and animal coexsist, hunting is essential for us to live side by side. If we didn't encroach on the wildlife's environment, hunting would not be nessicary. When it comes down to that, hunting to sustain a human population is completly moral and justified.


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: djd586]
    #1884604 - 09/05/03 11:29 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I agree. I didn't want to leave the impression from my post that I disapprove of hunting; I'm for it in certain cases as long as its done as humanely as possible. It is necessary in certain cases because some animals have no natural predators. They had them at one time, but man killed them off because occasionlly they attacked man. Btw some areas of the country are experimenting with reintroducing wolves into the wild. Now that's putting the wild back in wildlife!

Deer are a good example of animals that need to be hunted for population control. In this part of the country deer are running rampant. They're in your garden, on your lawn, in the road, and on your windshield. They carry lyme disease and other nasty critters.

In my state hunting is part of the culture, but it's slowly declining. The numbers with hunting licenses are going down and it's not enough anyway to check the deer population. We could have about 10,000 Ted Nugents flown in and it wouldn't make a dent in the deer population.



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Offlinedjd586
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: Jellric]
    #1885191 - 09/05/03 02:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I actually spent this summer following one of the few newly introduced grey wolf packs in my state. Very exciting work. They are very interesting animals to work close with.


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InvisibleMystical_Craven
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1885248 - 09/05/03 02:29 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Well, I'm certainly not one of those gung-ho types that's gonna run around telling everyone else what that should or shouldn't do...cause quite frankly, I have no real objections to hunting...I just don't personally want to have anything to do with it myself. I'll admit I used to blast the crap out of pigeons with my pellet gun all the time back in the day, and I never once thought twice about it...but then one day (a few years back) I had an experience that changed my entire perception about these sorts of things. I was hanging out with a cousin of mine that has always been an avid hunter himself, and he was talking about this hunting trip he had recently been on and was telling all of his stories about what happened and how many animals he shot, and so on and so forth...when I suddenly started fading away from the conversation and kinda blanked out for a minute or so.

I found myself cruisin around in the forest (just as I've done many other times in the past) and I wasn't really going anywhere or doing anything, just takin in the scenery and enjoying the cool crisp morning air. And as I'm walking along I hear these strange sounds off in the distance that I had never heard before (as well as a lot of rustling in the underbrush and what have you) and, oddly enough, I also noticed a very peculiar scent in the air...again, something I wasn't familiar with. So I start looking over in the area that the noises were commin from in an attempt to find out what the hell it was, when all of the sudden I hear this loud ass thunderous clap kinda sound imediately followed by an eerie ass 'sshhhhhwoooom' sorta noise, and then a quick thud as a near-by tree suddenly burst out with little tiny shards of wood flying all over the place. I had absolutely no idea what was going on, but it scared the fuck outa me...so I took off running as fast as I possibly could - not caring about where I was going, or what it was that I was running from - I just ran like there was no tomorrow. I heard a whole lot more rustling comming from behind me as I ran, and the noises I heard earlier were now getting lowder...it was clear that *something* was after me. SSHHHHHWOOOOM! Another noise, just like the last...this time louder, this time closer. I could tell now that these shooshing noises were actually some sort of insects or something that were flying towards me at incredible speeds...much faster then I could run I still didn't know what it was that was behind me though. I thought perhaps it was wolf, or a mountain lion...though the sounds it was making were far different from any wolf or mountain lion I had ever heard. Perhaps it was a new animal all together? Sssshhhhhhwwwoooooom!!! Oh crap! That was way too damn close...that one almost got me. I gotta do something quick! Vhip...I slid to the right. Voop...i stumbled to the left. I was trying to move my legs faster then I could control them...I was stubmbling all over myself. I had to get to a river, or a mountain, or any place other then the forest - I just didn't have a chance where I was at...*it* was too good. SSSSHHHHHHHOOOOOOOOMMMPP! THUWAMPAH! Oh FUCK!!! God damnit!...what the hell was that?!?

It felt as if something had just rammed into me with so much force it literally tore apart my insides. In a split second I felt an incredible pain unlike anything I had ever even thought possible, and all of the sudden my legs gave way and my entire body was flung to the ground. I was so scared I couldn't move, I couldn't cry out for help, I could do anything...I just laid there choking on my own breath, strugling to make sense of the situation. I felt a strange wet sensation on my side (just behind my front legs) which quickly turned cold and began slowing speading throughout my entire body. When I couldn't feel my legs, or my tail, or anything else anymore: I suddenly understood what was going on. It was just then that I realized I was a deer...one of the ones my cousin had just recently killed to be more specific. I distinctly remember seeing him and his old man aproach 'me' as I was lying there nearing my death, and hearing the two of them patting eachother on the back and all that other nice stuff. I also remember feeling the absolute confusion and overall 'broken-ness' of the deer as it cried it's last tear. I couldn't help but feel sorry for the poor gal. The whole ordeal just seemed so tragic, and unneccessary.





Anywho - my point is: after experiencing something like that I just can't bring myself to kill *anything* really (with the one minor exception of certain insects that creep the fuck out of me...and therefore, deserve to die for being the evil evil nasty filthy pesky ass no good fricken evil ass bastards they are)

mubles to self: stupid bugs  :mad2: 


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"Only those who risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go..." T.S. Eliot


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #1885950 - 09/05/03 06:17 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

We have eliminated most of the predators that take care of the population and health of the creatures hunted and therefore keeping the vegetation they consume balanced as well.. we need a way to keep it under control, for THEIR species benefit. And we have exactly that, hunting.

To those who say it isn't humane, it is a lot better than letting them overpopulate, destroy the habitat, catch diseases that could possibly be passed to other species, and ruin their own chance at survival, as nature's balance to keep everything running smoothly has been upsetted greatly by us and we should have to assume the responsibility of doing that work ourselves..

Regulated Hunting = Good for Mother Nature and ourselves. And deer taste pretty fucking good, too. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: Mystical_Craven]
    #1885952 - 09/05/03 06:18 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

after experiencing something like that I just can't bring myself to kill *anything* really (




I know what you mean. Even though I'm in favor of hunting in certain cases I still don't want to be the one doing it. I had a nice hamburger the other day. Someone killed that cow and it sure wasn't me.

As for the hunting aspect, I think it can be justified if its done as needed if in a respectful manner. The North American Indians had the right idea in the way they revered and honored the buffalo who after all provided them with a means of living. I think that there are some deer hunters today who are nearly the same way, even though there are other means of sustenence available, and they would just choose other animals.

There are some hunters though who have that macho mentality and get some kind of deluded ego rush from the process. This is the same mentality that would drill for oil in the Artic wildlife preserve. If they could stick an oil drill directly into the endangered animal itself I think they would get off on that.

Speaking of respect, I heard a story once that was pretty funny. Back in the 1960's in the West there was an Indian reservation where the white man was not respecting the boundaries of the reservation and going in and hunting with impunity while drinking heavily. They were leaving beer cans everywhere, yelling and screaming, and nearly shooting each other. The backdrop was an environment where the federal government was allowing companies to come in and clear cut the trees. If you're not familiar with the process it means they take a chain stretching yards and mow down acres of trees- both young and old. They never asked for permission- they did it because they could.

Anyway, the Indians were led by their shaman, a wise man named Rolling Thunder. He had warned the white men, but they wouldn't stop. He gathered about a dozen of his men, and they painted their faces as their forefathers did before going into battle. As the drunk hunters came crashing onto their land they made their move. They stealthily encircled them with bows drawn down. The white men gradually became aware of their presence and most turned even whiter, some began shaking violently, some were heard to issue strange low moaning noises, others lost control of their bodily functions. They never ventured on that land again.


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I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: Jellric]
    #1885995 - 09/05/03 06:28 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Native Americans, in general, realized their place in Mother Nature's circle, and decided to stay in that position instead of "advancing" any further to disrupt the balance. I really admire the Native Americans and their beliefs held. I recognize that there were thousands of tribes and a lot of different beliefs were held, but the main ideas are what I am talking about.

Christianity has many different facets and they all have a lot of beliefs that even contradict the others at time, but they are all still centered around a core belief (I am not saying anything about Christianity here except for pointing out the similarity). It really applies to every related situation.

Native Americans = Deep Respect from me.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibletak
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with deat [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1886251 - 09/05/03 07:53 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

If we didnt steal thier land we would not have to hunt them. But because we are killing the world, it is natural to kill them in order to preserve thier species. MAKES SENSE TO ME ;]


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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1886317 - 09/05/03 08:13 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks for all the responses!  :laugh:

Oook - I did mean not eating meat at all.  We now know that we can live very healthy lives without it.

In case any of you missed it in my earlier post, I don't hunt anymore.  And I don't think it was ever an ego thing for me.  To tell you the truth, I really don't know what my motivation was, except to eat what I killed.

I do believe hunting is neccesary to maintain healthy populations, but likely because of our enchroachment into their territory as someone mentioned before.

I don't really have a problem with anyone else doing it, I just don't think it is for me anymore.  I don't like the feeling bad about it.  I just don't understand what happened that made me be able to do it before, but not now.  That is why I told the story of my childhood and my father. 

In a way, I want to go again, I enjoy being outdoors, and the time spent with friends.  But I think what I miss the most is the hunt, not the kill.  I really don't think I will be able to do it.   


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with deat [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1888335 - 09/06/03 01:52 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

The way I see your story is that hunting was an important rite of passage. To hunt effectively you need skill with a weapon, stealth, stillness over long periods of time, and a working knowledge of the game you seek and the terrain you're in, in other words woodcraft. To hunt successfully is an accomplishment. Some of the best days of my life was spent afield with my father hunting squirrel and grouse, I wouldn't trade those days for anything. My dad passed on a lot of easy shots too because to him the kill was not paramount, but the skills involved and passing them along to me was. In the end the time my father spent teaching me was all that mattered really, I knew it then but couldn't find the words for it. Now we go out fishing sometimes and hiking as well but we no longer hunt, we stopped after my 19th birthday. We agreed that wild game just doesn't taste that damn good.

My experience is very similar to yours, when I was growing up hunting was a big part of my life. I no longer hunt with a gun but I do hunt with a camera from time to time, I go into the woods and use the same skills to get close to game and I've taken some excellent pictures. Try it a couple of times and see what you think.


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"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with deat [Re: tak]
    #1888345 - 09/06/03 01:59 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I know this is mentioned, but I'll just give a first-hand account...

I live in Wisconsin...I live in the city now, used to live in a rural area. The deer population is so high, every winter thousands and thousands of deer starve to death. We would literally have these rail thin, pathetic looking poking around the snow in our backyard. Its the saddest thing you've ever seen...

The next couple years, they had an increased hunting season, and the problem was gone. I know it seems very illogical, and it IS illogical to say, "We killed them so that they could live better." But its the truth. I hate the killing of animals...with a passion. I've never hunted a day in my life, but I understand the need for it. Not as a food source, because humanity is way past that...I hate hunting for trophies...But hunting as a way to effectively better the lives of wild animals is an actual, factual way of life.

I wish there was some way that one could feasibly steralize large numbers of deer or other problem wild animals. I just use deer as the example that I'm familiar with. Maybe its crocodiles or elephants, or water buffalo where your at.  Yes...Its terribly sad, and trust me, I DO lose sleep over it at hunting season. But its necessary...  :frown:


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #1888349 - 09/06/03 02:00 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

According to Universal Law, it is not immoral to kill a creature, if you are eating it for survival. Generally we would look for lesser evolved creatures such as rabbits. To kill for sport, is just wrong, no way around it.

Oh yes, I almost forgot.. the human desire to kill animals comes from a deep, unconscious issue where we see animals as superior and therefore our ego gets scared, so we kill it and eat it's flesh, to try and feel superior. That is not the way. Needless to say, there is a lot of karmic debt that needs balancing between the animal realm and the human. Start getting humble.


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: Shroomism]
    #1890691 - 09/07/03 12:48 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

This and every year I can, I will humbly climb into my deer stand and take my place as a hunter. I just think about what my mother always told me, "Don't play with your food". It seems that people just don't understand that there is no need to feel guilty over killing an animal to eat it. Do you think that a tiger gets all emotional when it takes down prey? Do piranha later feel remorse for the other fish that they devour? The reason why is because it is only natural for one thing to die in order for another to live.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: Ekstaza]
    #1891276 - 09/07/03 04:12 PM (13 years, 3 months ago)

Perhaps you didn't understand.

Hunt for food/survival - fine
Hunt for "fun" - not


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Re: Hunting, is it wrong? (Small tangent - dealing with death) [Re: Shroomism]
    #1893491 - 09/08/03 11:15 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

I have to agree here. Hunting for sport is wrong (sport = an activity involving physical exertion and skill that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often undertaken competitively. An active pastime or recreation).

Could one of you hunters please enlighten me on your reasons hunting for sport is a good thing? Why do you do it? I do not mean for food, population control, good of species, etc. I mean SPECIFICALLY for sport. What is the attraction? I am not skewing anyone, I am actually rather curious as to why.


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"Those sweet excesses I do adore."



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