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InvisibleRavus
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Motion is Impossible
    #3827801 - 02/24/05 04:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Imagine you shoot an arrow off into the air. At every moment in the arrow's path, there is a point of time, and at every point in time, the arrow is one place, that is, the place that it is in that point of time. There is no movement in a single point of time obviously, just like freezing everything in the current moment.

Now to get movement, the arrow has to go from one point of time to another, and at both points in time the arrow is still. Since points take up no space, whether it be on a plane or in time, and you can always go into smaller points of time, then there must be a point of time between the two points of time for the arrow to travel, but again, at all points in time the arrow is always still. If you freeze time, there is no motion, and since time is just continuous points, motion is impossible.

For example, at 1 second, the arrow is frozen at point A, at 1.1 seconds, the arrow is frozen at point B, but between 1 and 1.1 seconds, there is an infinite number of points, in which the arrow is always frozen in that point of time, so how can the arrow go from point A to point B?


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Ravus]
    #3828084 - 02/24/05 05:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Frames.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Ravus]
    #3828132 - 02/24/05 05:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Time cannot be frozen. Too much reductionism will lead to impasses like that one.

Let's assume it IS possible to freeze time. Then photons woudln't be able to move either, and we wouldn't be able to see what happened.

Okay, let's assume only the arrow is frozen in time. If it is not in the same place at point A on the time axis as it is at point B, then one must logically conclude movement exists.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Gomp]
    #3828267 - 02/24/05 05:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

??how can the arrow go from point A to point B???

The arrow at point B connects to the arrow at point A, by common intention, ? (that was not, flowing so)?

The arrow gets from point A to point B, by being, at none of the points.
The arrow you see is the possible positions of the arrow, applied to the most immediate ?reality?.  Meaning it could be anywhere.

Our vision is composed of the reflecting light, no light, imagination, and such?
 
Seeing this arrow, means you know it is there, know it could be there, think its there, and/or so on?

Moving from A to B is perception combined.

Change, something changes. Something in everything, went something to A from B, would start stop, stop start. Continuing, still, motion, in spirit. , ...

We are at the same place at the same ?time?, so the same arrow, would be in each position, A and B, like drawn in a cartoon, an arrow, is newer the same. Yet it is.. ..seen as one.

:wink:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Gomp]
    #3828304 - 02/24/05 05:49 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Movement exist in our minds.

Motion in a cartoon, comes from combined still matter.. .. see motion, as imageinaction, on the same page of Hiawatha in Donald duck, ... The arrow, is more than one, .. as One.


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Edited by Gomp (02/24/05 05:49 PM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3828345 - 02/24/05 06:02 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Time doesn't even need to be frozen for motion to be impossible. All that we know is that, by our knowledge, time is a linear line, from 1 second to 2 seconds, and between 1 and 2 seconds there are obvious points of time, and at each point time is not in motion simply because the definition of being a point is that it is set at that time. Time doesn't freeze, but it is made up of an infinite number of points, so therefore how does anything move? The only way it would work is if there is a smallest unit of time, say if .000001 seconds was the smallest possible unit of time, then there would just be skips inbetween where the arrow jumps in motion, but personally I think it's ridiculous to say there's a smallest unit of time.

This is not entirely theoretical either, paradoxes like this are common in the quantum world, where you see an photon either in the place it's in (that moment of time) or where it's going as a wave, but you cannot see a photon particle moving through points of time. Perhaps at our scale we just overlook it.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Ravus]
    #3828492 - 02/24/05 06:41 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The only way it would work is if there is a smallest unit of time, say if .000001 seconds was the smallest possible unit of time, then there would just be skips inbetween where the arrow jumps in motion, but personally I think it's ridiculous to say there's a smallest unit of time.



Well, that would actually make sense, as there is a limit to how many still frames we can see in a second, like Gomp said.

Quote:

This is not entirely theoretical either, paradoxes like this are common in the quantum world, where you see a photon either in the place it's in (that moment of time) or where it's going as a wave, but you cannot see a photon particle moving through points of time. Perhaps at our scale we just overlook it.



For the sake of pragmatism, it is not even an issue on our scale.
On a side note, I thought one couldn't calculate the position and speed of a photon at the same time. I've never heard of an individual photon being seen (but that might very well be ignorance on my part).


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3828506 - 02/24/05 06:44 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

congratulations, you found the definition of analog.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3828515 - 02/24/05 06:46 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Which of the six defintions?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3828534 - 02/24/05 06:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

pretty much all of them. Especially the one ravus posted.


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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Ravus]
    #3830058 - 02/24/05 10:58 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)



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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: shroomydan]
    #3830336 - 02/24/05 11:35 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

I know it is one of Zeno's paradoxes, I want to see how people on the Shroomery would respond to it using the simple logic and reasoning of their own minds, as all of his paradoxes are really quite thought-provoking.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Ravus]
    #3830756 - 02/25/05 12:38 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

time is a man-made concept.

i really couldn't agree with the fact that there is one point in time, if we referring to time as being linear.

time itself is a function of distance, not the other way around (in a physics and calculus sense anyway)

going back to your analogy...arrow goes from point A to point B because it glides through the air. there is space for the arrow to travel through. when you shoot the arrow, you give it energy to move.

note: energy doesn't exist either, it too is a concept

everything on this planet has inertia, since it has mass. when you put energy into an object, it can move. and that's how arrow goes from A to B.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: kaiowas]
    #3831841 - 02/25/05 08:23 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

time itself is a function of distance, not the other way around (in a physics and calculus sense anyway



Would you like to see our age expressed in an amount of atoms that have moved?


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


Edited by Alan Stone (02/25/05 08:27 AM)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Ravus]
    #3831858 - 02/25/05 08:45 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Their is no arrow, Neo.

:laugh:


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Ravus]
    #3833966 - 02/25/05 07:07 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Ravus, movement is time!

When I move I am time travelling!


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3834875 - 02/25/05 11:14 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

"Would you like to see our age expressed in an amount of atoms that have moved? "

in the physics and calculus sense it cannot.

there is the prime meridian, which is where london is located (or real close to it anyway).

lets say we can "freeze time" (that is the movement of earth), and you go to california. then you let the earth move again, the time is different, but it is still the same "point in time" that is what I mean by time is a function of distance, and is what I meant by physics and calculus sense anyway.

your age doesn't depend on where you are located.

again though, it's all a concept.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Ravus]
    #3834881 - 02/25/05 11:17 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

how can the arrow go from point A to point B?

as far as I'm concerned, the simple answer is "take a friggin look around. stuff is moving."


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3835879 - 02/26/05 07:27 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

image in action :smile:


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Motion is Impossible [Re: Ravus]
    #3836155 - 02/26/05 10:58 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

This assumes that time is discrete in nature, which it may not be.


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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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