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OfflineZekebomb
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Soul
    #3919322 - 03/15/05 03:22 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

the following will, I assure you, be very poorly thought-out:

okay, every 7 years all your cells (except brain cells, I'm told) are recycled, more or less, right? Then why do scars last for more than 7 years? Why do problems with posture, badly-set broken bones, etc, persist for entire lifetimes?

even though the cells are new every 7 years, they are arranged in the same way. According to the same blueprint, if you will. this bluepriint is totally immaterial, noncorporeal, like a ghost. perhaps this blueprint is like a magnetic field generated by the nerve cells that run throughout the body (which I'm told don't recycle like all the other cells). Perhaps not.

So, the blueprint is the Soul. Of course, there's nothing saying this version of the Soul persists after the death of the body, but I sort of get the feeling that maybe this Soulish thing I've defined leaves a lasting imprint on spacetime or something. Depending on certain factors, maybe. you don't have to respond to that last part.


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OfflineThe_Walrus
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Re: Soul [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3919799 - 03/15/05 07:14 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I can see what you are getting at. I believe that in answer to you question, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Fundamentally we are just a load of amino acids and water, but if you just got a load of water and amino acids and threw them together, you would not get a human being. I believe that this 'soul' if you will, is basically the difference between the sum of our constituent parts and the actual value of our 'whole'.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Soul [Re: The_Walrus]
    #3919817 - 03/15/05 07:22 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Some people are born, and start dying...
Some people are borm, and live...
...

take a bunch of 90 yearold's.. line them up.. find a neutral jury, make them line them up by age.. my guess is you get 2 groups.. hehe pure guessing of no base.. :wink: one that look like old people, and one that look like grownups.. :P haha blab bla...



Great thread, grand idea :P

we regenreate, look at nature. cut the leg of a gekko lizzard. :P

i again think of beliefe.. if you believe you can not regenerate, then over time, so you may forget that you infact can, and loos the abilyt, supressing it..

anyways.. if i made this post when im 246years and just had mys first child... i guess my point would be possible to be..

:wink:


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Soul [Re: Gomp]
    #3919829 - 03/15/05 07:29 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

oh, and btw.. :smile:

blueprint, in the DNA?
DNA in a cell like, Each bit of a hologram contains all the information that the rest of hologram does, all that happens if you break the hologram into several physically separate chunks is that each chunk has more error in it, it gets more blurred? (like seperated humans? :P)


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Soul [Re: Gomp]
    #3919921 - 03/15/05 08:27 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb: perhaps this blueprint is like a magnetic field generated by the nerve cells that run throughout the body




A morphogenetic field?

Quote:

The_Walrus: the whole is greater than the sum of its parts... believe that this 'soul' if you will, is basically the difference between the sum of our constituent parts and the actual value of our 'whole'.




Before 'soul' comes consciousness - or is our soul exactly that? Consciousness. Consciousness is the emergent factor of the systems we call biology, the factor that is greater than the sum of the parts. Will consciousness persist without the sum of the parts, when the equation breaks down and the sum can no longer be reached....when entropy results in death?

Perhaps there is another layer below/above consciousness. Is that 'soul' or 'God'? Is consciousness one of the parts of the 'soul' and if so is the whole of the 'soul' greater than the sum of its parts? Or is it just hyper-consciousness?


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Soul [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3919951 - 03/15/05 08:56 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

a scar is not a result of damaged cells, it is essentially a result of damage to the way the cells are arranged. even if you replace the individual cells, the way they are arranged is still 'wrong'. same with broken bones. when you break a bone, you don't break the cells, but separate them from eachother at the point of the break. the cells are replaced, but there is still a break between them.

the blueprint you talk about is DNA; a chemical control of how your cells grow. magnetism has nothing to do with it.

your body is more than just a lump of proteins because the proteins are arranged in a very specific way. in the same way, a watch is more than a pile of cogs and wheels because it is arranged in a very particular way.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Soul [Re: alsey]
    #3920111 - 03/15/05 09:50 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

a scar is not a result of damaged cells, it is essentially a result of damage to the way the cells are arranged




memory

Quote:

DNA; a chemical control of how your cells grow




faults in the endless copying....incorrect equations....the sum eventually no longer matches the equation. The whole begins to decline.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Soul [Re: CJay]
    #3920413 - 03/15/05 11:56 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

(edit: sorry meant to respond to alsey, not CJay)

alsey: magnetism has nothing to do with it.

zekebomb: perhaps this blueprint is like a magnetic field

ok. alsey: a scar is not a result of damaged cells, it is essentially a result of damage to the way the cells are arranged. even if you replace the individual cells, the way they are arranged is still 'wrong'.

that's true, and I see your point. however, as CJay pointed out, that implies memory. the tricky part is coming right up:

the blueprint you talk about is DNA; a chemical control of how your cells grow.

if DNA is the same as the blueprint I defined, then why don't scars disappear in 7 years? Scars aren't written in DNA. DNA contains a different blueprint, a static, read-once-then-forget blueprint. Every time a cell divides, it reads the DNA in order to make a copy of it, but the DNA isn't telling it where to go. The blueprint I defined, on the other hand, is active and dynamic, and constantly being referred to as cells replace each other.

This soul paradigm also explains why people can have a nice set of features, a fit body, straight teeth etc, yet be somehow uglier than some other person who may be overweight, snaggletoothed, crosseyed, etc. (maybe. actually now that I think about it, I'm not sure how that explains it. But I'll leave it here anyways for your enjoyment.)

But slightly more concretely, it does explain those Taoist legends about the old immortal masters who lived up in the mountains who looked like the animals they emulated. Like the Frog immortal, for example. Apparently the guy looked like a frog. This is because his Taoist training allowed him to gain a measure of conscious control over his blueprint, and exert subtle changes to it over the course of years.


Edited by Zekebomb (03/15/05 11:57 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Soul [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3920452 - 03/15/05 12:04 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

what you are talking about is trauma and attitude

we build attitude to help us navigate through the world
the attitude includes postures and habits, it is plastic but we treat it like metal or diamond due to the egodreamofreality

that is the framework that the new cells grow on
that and the healings from damages which can be just physical trauma.


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OfflinePsilocinSam
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Re: Soul [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3920514 - 03/15/05 12:18 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Soul is the interface between conciousness and body. It is that which allows us to hold our physical form as we please (I'm not implying consciousness is seperate from the body here).

The Soul is a virtual entity, created by the mind to allow conciousness to exert it's control over the whole.

Well that's my packet of polo ponies! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Soul [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3920529 - 03/15/05 12:23 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I go with that - virtual entity - construct, you may say as well - you could even call it an ally - whatever gets you through the night, alright?


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Soul [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3920792 - 03/15/05 01:47 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


ok. alsey: a scar is not a result of damaged cells, it is essentially a result of damage to the way the cells are arranged. even if you replace the individual cells, the way they are arranged is still 'wrong'.

that's true, and I see your point. however, as CJay pointed out, that implies memory.




it is simply the fact that the damage to the arrangement of your cells is so severe that your body is incapable of putting the new cells back in the right places.


Quote:


if DNA is the same as the blueprint I defined, then why don't scars disappear in 7 years? Scars aren't written in DNA. DNA contains a different blueprint, a static, read-once-then-forget blueprint. Every time a cell divides, it reads the DNA in order to make a copy of it, but the DNA isn't telling it where to go. The blueprint I defined, on the other hand, is active and dynamic, and constantly being referred to as cells replace each other.




a scar is not cell damage. when you get cut, your cells are never damaged in the first place, they are just separated from eachother. if the cut is bad enough, the cells will not return to their original position by the time they are replaced. the replacements will then still be in the same incorrect positions that their predecessors occupied.

Quote:


But slightly more concretely, it does explain those Taoist legends about the old immortal masters who lived up in the mountains who looked like the animals they emulated. Like the Frog immortal, for example. Apparently the guy looked like a frog. This is because his Taoist training allowed him to gain a measure of conscious control over his blueprint, and exert subtle changes to it over the course of years.




they are legends and are most likely wildly exagerated. the frog dude may have had some frog like features but i'm pretty sure he looked quite human. my nickname in real life is alsey because my friends say i look like an alsatian. i may have features that are somewhat reminicent of an alsation, but i don't actually look like one.


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Soul [Re: alsey]
    #3920912 - 03/15/05 02:27 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

ribbit


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Soul [Re: alsey]
    #3921004 - 03/15/05 02:49 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

they are legends and are most likely wildly exagerated. the frog dude may have had some frog like features but i'm pretty sure he looked quite human.

hey, I have just as much of a claim to knowing what the hell I'm talking about when it comes to ancient Taoist immortals as you have. which is to say, not very much of a claim at all.

a scar is not cell damage.

I didn't say it was. I may have implied that though.. sorry if so

your body is more than just a lump of proteins because the proteins are arranged in a very specific way. in the same way, a watch is more than a pile of cogs and wheels because it is arranged in a very particular way.

here it seems like you're either saying watches have souls, or human bodies don't have souls. clarify?

CJay: ribbit

I'll say.

***

However, after all that blah blah, reading over this thread, I come to realize my thesis can be minutely adjusted to mean the opposite of itself!

For example, let's say scars did disappear after 7 years. I could just as easily declare "aha! Proof that there's an immaterial, noncorporeal blueprint keeping the human body in its natural scarless state!"

ahh, whatever.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Soul [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3921095 - 03/15/05 03:13 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PsilocinSam said:
Soul is the interface between conciousness and body.




That's a good way to put it. The nature of the reactions between matter and energy determine their outcomes. People's individual definitions of "soul" will vary, but I get what you are saying, Zeke. The blueprint is the rules of reactions. The rules of physics will never change, just like the soul, but they also react dynamically, like the soul.

Everything has a soul in this sense. A watch behaves according to these rules just as much as an organic being does. But these things were not just thrown together. There were specific events and natural laws that lead up to their formation. Order out of chaos.

The reason that our scars dont go away is simply cause and effect. There was damage to the body that redefined the physical structure of the cellular lattice. When they regrew, they had to do so around this this damage and form a new lattice. Scars do fade as time goes on, as the new lattice is incorporated into the rest of the old lattice after many generations of cellular reproduction, but there will always be a trace of them there.

There is evidence of the past everywhere you look. The reason is simple. The present is simply a culmination of the past. This is the effect, and the past is the cause. You can always tell where you've been by looking at where you are.

I once went to my college algebra class tripping. When my teacher erased the numbers on the dry erase board there were little lines of marker dust where his eraser went back and forth. Eventually these lines cluttered the board and stood out to me more than the numbers and equations that he was writing. I was like "what the fuck are those!!" and then I realized "those were numbers once!" Then I looked at the back of the chair in front of me. The orange paint was beginning to crack and the old yellow paint underneath was showing through. The two were connected in my mind. It was quite obvious that these were simply evidence of the past. Every mark, scratch, peice of dust, and ink stain around me told a story that lead up that moment.

We are eternal, we are ephemeral. Time is not real, and we shall transcend this reality of moments...

sorry if I took this thread off topic a bit.


Edited by dr0mni (03/15/05 03:17 PM)


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Offlinealsey
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Re: Soul [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3921701 - 03/15/05 05:53 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


hey, I have just as much of a claim to knowing what the hell I'm talking about when it comes to ancient Taoist immortals as you have. which is to say, not very much of a claim at all.




you are claiming that by some unexplainable process the taoists managed to change their appearance. i am claiming that their appearance has been exaggerated in legend. apply occam's razor - my claim is more logical.

Quote:


here it seems like you're either saying watches have souls, or human bodies don't have souls. clarify?




i'm saying that even though a human body is more than the sum of its component parts, it doesn't necessarily have a soul.


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Offlinedr0mni
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Re: Soul [Re: alsey]
    #3922277 - 03/15/05 08:22 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

alsey said:
i'm saying that even though a human body is more than the sum of its component parts, it doesn't necessarily have a soul.




again, how do we define "soul"? This question can never be answered and this thread is about to fall apart into nitpicking and irreconcilable differences in opinion...


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Soul [Re: dr0mni]
    #3922895 - 03/15/05 10:32 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

The body is a fake construction made up by the imagination also known as our soul.

We are all different kinds of souls coexisting in an environment consisting of about 0.00000001% of the real reality.

What I'm trying to say is that with our feeble brain we percieve like a tiny percentage of whats really "out there".

The real boggle is that its not really "out there" at all...

Its "in there".

My soul was metamorphosed into this existance by my fathers agile sperm entering my mothers ready and steady egg. That chemical reaction created a "separate" living being from the universe, but it is still 'the universe'. (Or as much a part of it as anything else.)

When I (the new being) exited my mothers womb, I (the new being) entered my own mind(the universe) and created light, so I could see and create objects, people, and all the other shit floating around in the cosmos.

At birth, I (the new being) walked backwards into myself(the universe) and created and became the doctors and nurses, and my mother and my father, and everybody around me (the new being), and talked (communicated) to myself (the universe, at the same time the new being) through them (the other people, and the universe) - because I (the new being) was designed to design its own life/reality, as a soul in this universe. As this universe.

Reflections.

At first, I (the new being) could only create reality, and real beings(you for instance), very close to my face, because my brain and eyes were not capable of looking deeper inside my soul, because my soul hadn't made them complete yet.

To make myself complete, I had to stimulate myself, by becoming the world around me, which until now didn't exist to me - or rather - I didn't exist like this until now.

I (the new being) am still the universe. And so is my mother.

So I, the new being, came out of my mother and into myself - but at the same time I actually came into my mother by coming into existance in this universe she exists in. Exists in, and in actuality *is*.

Say ... from my mothers perspective; When I (the new being) was born, she (the universe, and my mother) felt touched, or moved in a very perticular and powerful kind of way.

What she really felt was that I (the new being) entered her universe and reflected the universe back at her as a new universe - a new universe ready to suck up information - ready for building.

A project.

Reflections.

Progression.

Because until that point, I was her - I was inside her, I came from her.

Now my soul/body/seed had to separate her from me, and create "my mother" "momma" "mommy",- all this is necessary because I was forced to become a new being. (damn my parents)

I go backwards into my own mind, from which I was born and create my mother to myself. (a.k.a beginning to understand my surroundings)

From there it all expanded,

(I was already separated from the universe, because my mother was - is that the inherited sin?:P)

and I continue to separate myself further from the universe - as I create it inside my mind - I expand the universe.

Atleast, I play a part in expanding the universe.

And so is every other soul or body in there. In here.

And the further we progress into your, our, my, mind, through science, and think about shit, and discover the universe - the further we push ourselves away from what we really was - and force ourselves to become something new.

Its life. Its one damned thing after another.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: Soul [Re: dr0mni]
    #3922960 - 03/15/05 10:42 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

This question can never be answered and this thread is about to fall apart into nitpicking and irreconcilable differences in opinion...

what, you expected this thread to be any different from all other S&P threads?

alsey, congratulations, you brought all the bristling guns of your logic to bear on the weakly-defended coastal city of my thesis. Who's got the lollipop for alsey?

It's okay really, I don't mind, I wasn't very attached to the idea anyways, and please pretend that I used lots of little cute emoticons to convey how mellow about everything I am. allow me one final dig:

you are claiming that by some unexplainable process the taoists managed to change their appearance.

no, please refer to the part where I proposed a process, which I then explained.


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Offlineslaphappy
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Re: Soul [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3923054 - 03/15/05 10:56 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Stop bickering about the bickering, and read what I wrote.


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