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OfflineRobert6051
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Robert6051]
    #16059863 - 04/08/12 03:56 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

And another point, in your original example on the first page of this forum (I can't remember the guys name): it's impossible to understand his perspective, isn't it? To know what that guy is really thinking? Maybe inside his head everything is working perfectly; maybe he can think perfectly. Like some fucked-up global aphasia that messes with your entire personality, but inside, your still you.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Robert6051]
    #16060279 - 04/08/12 09:02 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

You can't see, can't hear, but you can think and reason.

Ever heard of Locked-in Syncrome?

If there is such a thing as hell, that is it.

One good thing about my parents is that, while irrationally religious, they also are not the type to torture someone they love to keep them alive at every and all expense and by every means available. Even though I've put it in writing in the form of a living will, my parents could legally override my written end-of-life wishes in some instances. One of the few things in life I am grateful for is that they feel the same way as I do about letting go when things get hopeless.

If I ever end up "locked-in", please, please, please!!! pull the plug ASAP.

From the Wiki:

"Locked-in syndrome is a condition in which a patient is aware and awake but cannot move or communicate verbally due to complete paralysis of nearly all voluntary muscles in the body except for the eyes. Total locked-in syndrome is a version of locked-in syndrome where the eyes are paralyzed as well. The term for this disorder was coined by Fred Plum and Jerome Posner in 1966. Locked-in syndrome is also known as cerebromedullospinal disconnection, de-efferented state, pseudocoma, and ventral pontine syndrome.

Locked-in syndrome usually results in quadriplegia and the inability to speak in otherwise cognitively intact individuals. Those with locked-in syndrome may be able to communicate with others through coded messages by blinking or moving their eyes, which are often not affected by the paralysis. The symptoms are similar to those of sleep paralysis. Patients who have locked-in syndrome are conscious and aware with no loss of cognitive function. They can sometimes retain proprioception and sensation throughout their body. Some patients may have the ability to move certain facial muscles, most often some or all of the extraocular eye muscles. Individuals with locked-in syndrome lack coordination between breathing and voice. This restricts them from producing voluntary sounds, even though the vocal cords themselves are not paralysed.
"

Imagine begging to die through coded eye movements and being told by your cheerful, helpful doctor that, sorry, our neurotic society calls that murder and it's illegal. But here, let me roll you over and wipe that shit off your ass so you're more comfortable.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Robert6051]
    #16060296 - 04/08/12 09:10 AM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Also, what do think about the pineal gland

The pineal is a relatively insignificant gland in the big endocrinology picture. It is wholly unremarkable other than it has photosensitive cells. Mystic-heads took it and ran, creating this huge mumbo-jumbo construction over nothing at all.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinemidace12
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #16061157 - 04/08/12 02:10 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The symptoms are similar to those of sleep paralysis. Patients who have locked-in syndrome are conscious and aware with no loss of cognitive function.




I had this all the time when I was younger, seems to happen less frequently as people age. It's been known as "Old Hag Syndrome" for many years, as most people see a horrific old woman crawling up their bed to devour their soul, unable to move. It certainly is hell though, as most occurrences are paired with an intense feeling of horror and vulnerability, usually with an immense pressure on your chest. Can't move, can't scream out....eventually I got to the point where I would literally launch out of the paralysis, because once you break it, it releases you instantly. I even found that if I put my head back down soon after, it would start to overtake me again, even though I had just flailed out of it and was entirely awake. Turns out I would have to sit up in bed for a few minutes until my brain stopped producing whatever chemical it is that causes paralysis, then I could go back to sleep. (sometimes) 

Freaky shit, though I have heard of some people that learn to somewhat control the experience and have Lucid Dreams and OBE's. I tried it a couple times, but being awake yet paralyzed is too horrific for me, I break out of it ASAP every time.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: midace12]
    #16061241 - 04/08/12 02:31 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

That's my ex crawling up there after your soul. I recognize the ugly bitch. (she looks good with her makeup on)  She almost got mine, be careful.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: midace12]
    #16061969 - 04/08/12 05:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Freaky shit, though I have heard of some people that learn to somewhat control the experience and have Lucid Dreams and OBE's.

I used to get sleep paralysis all the time when I was a kid. I still get them now, though not as frequently and I'm pushing 50. The first few FREAKED me out. I imagined I'd entered a coma and would be found like that by my parents waking me for school, then I'd spend the rest of my life like that.

After a few rounds I learned to work it and either wake myself if I wanted, but it's more fun to use it as a bridge into a lucid dream. They can be fun once you realize they're not harmful.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleteknix
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #16061974 - 04/08/12 05:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
First some context:

Every time I bring up the topic of the soul, the debate goes off topic into the definition of the soul rather than about the beef of what I'm presenting. So, for this thread, let's stipulate to the definition given by dictionary.com:

the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.

And some background:

There is a part of the brain known as the prefrontal cortex (PC) which is involved in the acquisition of goals and the mediation of emotions. When a neurologically healthy person decides on a goal, getting lunch for example, it is the prefrontal cortex that decides if considering the weather, it's better to walk or drive, take one route or another, pick restaurant A or B, and so on.

The PC is also involved in planning, taking action based on the future consequences of those actions. And maybe most importantly, it allows us to know right from wrong. It gives us the so-called neurological Executive Function.

Now the beef:

In 1848, a guy named Phineas Gage suffered an industrial accident. A metal rod pierced his head at the left cheek and exited through the top, severing the PC from the rest of the brain. Amazingly, he survived and physically recovered.

According to everyone who knew Phineas, prior to the accident he was a nice guy. After the accident, he became belligerent. He got into fights, argued, cursed, and even began beating his wife.

Indeed, his doctor wrote the following about Phineas:

Gage was fitful, irreverent, indulging at times in the grossest profanity (which was not previously his custom), manifesting but little deference for his fellows, impatient of restraint or advice when it conflicts with his desires, at times pertinaciously obstinate, yet capricious and vacillating, devising many plans of future operations, which are no sooner arranged than they are abandoned in turn for others appearing more feasible. A child in his intellectual capacity and manifestations, he has the animal passions of a strong man. Previous to his injury, although untrained in the schools, he possessed a well-balanced mind, and was looked upon by those who knew him as a shrewd, smart businessman, very energetic and persistent in executing all his plans of operation. In this regard his mind was radically changed, so decidedly that his friends and acquaintances said he was 'no longer Gage.'

No longer Gage. As if to say that the reconfiguration of his brain made him a different person. No soul involved. Just physical brain.

Neurological science today tells us that Phineas began exhibiting this bizarre change in personality as a result of his prefrontal cortex being disconnected from the rest of his brain by the accident.

Before the accident, impulses from the limbic system, the ancient, animalistic part of the brain where emotions originate, were mediated by a  tight coupling to the prefrontal cortex. After the accident, the limbic system was left free to act without the down-regulating action of the PC

What this tells me is that we are 100% a product of our physical brain. If, as claimed by believers, there were a soul somewhere in hyperspace or whatever, and the brain is only a sort of translator connecting our physical existence to our incorporeal one, then damage to the brain might cause some sensory distortion or lack of physical coordination, but not an overt change in basal personality.

The only way the personality could be so affected by brain damage is if personality is wholly produced in the physical brain, and there is no such thing as a soul.




I think that the non-locality seen within the quantum entanglement shows that there is reason to believe that A: matter has memory or B: matter is communicating through some undefined mechanism.

That being said, I have not any evidence that the soul is anything separate, just as the mitochondria is not separate from the cell and the cell is not separate from me.

I do think that there is an awareness that is not "fixed" within the brain or mind,(or even the pre-frontal cortex that you eluded too) that can be taken from autonomous, as most other things. That awareness is the only thing I have ever found that could be a "soul".  As to it's absolute existence or non existence, I would have to be extremely ignorant and arrogant to claim anything about the totality of it.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: midace12]
    #16062026 - 04/08/12 06:03 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Can't move, can't scream out....eventually I got to the point where I would literally launch out of the paralysis, because once you break it, it releases you instantly.

When I want to get out of it (which I usually do not), one trick I use is to try to make a sound. I used to try to thrash around hoping the movements would wake me. Obviously that doesn't work since you're paralyzed. But you can still make sounds!

I start humming as loud as I can and it translates into actual humming. After one or two attempts to hum, the sound wakes me up (and freaks out my cat, but that's another thread.) :grin:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisibleteknix
π“‚€βŸπ“…’π“π“…ƒπ“Š°π“‰‘ 𓁼𓆗⨻
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Posts: 11,953
Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: midace12]
    #16062068 - 04/08/12 06:12 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

midace12 said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
The symptoms are similar to those of sleep paralysis. Patients who have locked-in syndrome are conscious and aware with no loss of cognitive function.




I had this all the time when I was younger, seems to happen less frequently as people age. It's been known as "Old Hag Syndrome" for many years, as most people see a horrific old woman crawling up their bed to devour their soul, unable to move. It certainly is hell though, as most occurrences are paired with an intense feeling of horror and vulnerability, usually with an immense pressure on your chest. Can't move, can't scream out....eventually I got to the point where I would literally launch out of the paralysis, because once you break it, it releases you instantly. I even found that if I put my head back down soon after, it would start to overtake me again, even though I had just flailed out of it and was entirely awake. Turns out I would have to sit up in bed for a few minutes until my brain stopped producing whatever chemical it is that causes paralysis, then I could go back to sleep. (sometimes) 

Freaky shit, though I have heard of some people that learn to somewhat control the experience and have Lucid Dreams and OBE's. I tried it a couple times, but being awake yet paralyzed is too horrific for me, I break out of it ASAP every time.





There is a way to sleep that may help if you want to try it.

You put your right leg straight and your left foot under your right knee, making a sort of a triangle.

Then put your right palm on the area beneath your belly button, and your left palm under your head.

Or you can sleep on your side or belly. I do something similar If feel a sleep paralysis, sit up real fast and through a punch as fast as I can.

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Offlinemidace12
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #16062480 - 04/08/12 07:50 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That's my ex crawling up there after your soul. I recognize the ugly bitch. (she looks good with her makeup on)  She almost got mine, be careful.





I've been keeping her at bay with a few cloves of garlic and a fly swatter. As soon as she finishes putting together my Easy Bake Oven, her ass is on the street.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: midace12]
    #16062556 - 04/08/12 08:04 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

wise man :manofapproval:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineRobert6051
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #16062772 - 04/08/12 08:45 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think there are many, many elements of the universe & existence that we simply don't understand or can't comprehend. Take for example outer space: does it go on forever? It can't, right? Nothing can go on forever. So there has to be an "end" to outer space. Something beyond it. But how far does that go? And what's beyond that? It can't go on forever, but it must. A paradox. Either out brains can't understand such a paradox or we're looking at it the wrong way. Same way with our existense. We can speculate all we want. But we have no perspective to understand if we are just cosmic bacteria or more meaningful.
I think DMT, the Rick Strassman book is very interesting: similar experiences of contact with intelligent entities. Pineal gland as a reciever. Multiple other dimensions intertwined with ours. I don't want to accept that this is all there is. Mainly because that's too boring a reality to accept. It's much "funner" to watch Ancient Aliens and prepare for doomsday on Dec. 21st, 2012.
Hey Diploid, did you ever read Camus' "The Stranger? Your kinda book, I think.

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Offlinestumpme
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Robert6051]
    #16065671 - 04/09/12 02:46 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

I think the thing to point out here is galaxies collide, and the stars within them do not... the fields are forever changed, and blended.


--------------------
just give me a field and a sun ray!

Edited by stumpme (04/09/12 02:47 PM)

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: stumpme]
    #16065691 - 04/09/12 02:51 PM (11 years, 11 months ago)

Most of the stars do not collide.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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