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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be?
    #8104800 -

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23471625/

A women gave birth to identical triplets. This is one zygote that split, and then one of the daughter zygotes split again.

When did the souls of the babies come to exist?

By soul I mean whatever quality makes one a moral being, a person with those qualities we accept as a person. Such that it would be wrong to treat the life as if it were not a person, i.e. throw it in the incinerator.

This has to do with a major problem I see with the life begins at conception crowd's argument (by life they mean a moral person).

What are your thoughts on this? I'm not interested in talking about when its justified to abort, accept that if its helpful we may assume that it is wrong to cause the death of a person.

So when did these people get their souls? When can we rule out them having souls?


Lets not equivocate on the meaning of soul, I think I've explained what I mean here, that which distinguishes human beings from a human ear grown in a culture. If you do not believe human's have a soul, this probably isn't a fruitful conversation since it would be moot, I think.


So what do you say?

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: johnm214]
    #8104809 -

I think you are the first person I have seen properly use the term moot, without saying "Mute".

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: johnm214]
    #8104871 -

It's probably from reading Dr. Rick Strassman and the Tibetan Book of the Dead

but it's believed the soul enters the body after 49 days
which is ironically the same time that that DMT is said to be produced in the brain

:shrug:

that's interesting though.
3 identical triplets
wow


--------------------

“You've got as many lives as you like, and more, even ones you don't want.” - George Harrison

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: johnm214]
    #8105035 -

johnm214 said:
When did the souls of the babies come to exist?



Yesterday.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8105037 -

Yup, you could  start writing fortune cookies :smirk:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #8105041 -

You know fully well I hate fortune cookies that don't predict the future. :nono:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8105045 -

I can predict the future however :yesnod:
I'll let you know what will happen to you :naughty:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: johnm214]
    #8108968 -

johnm214 said:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23471625/

A women gave birth to identical triplets.  This is one zygote that split, and then one of the daughter zygotes split again.

When did the souls of the babies come to exist?

By soul I mean whatever quality makes one a moral being, a person with those qualities we accept as a person.  Such that it would be wrong to treat the life as if it were not a person, i.e. throw it in the incinerator.

This has to do with a major problem I see with the life begins at conception crowd's argument (by life they mean  a moral person).

What are your thoughts on this?  I'm not interested in talking about when its justified to abort, accept that if its helpful we may assume that it is wrong to cause the death of a person.

So when did these people get their souls?  When can we rule out them having souls?


Lets not equivocate on the meaning of soul, I think I've explained what I mean here, that which distinguishes human beings from a human ear grown in a culture.  If you do not believe human's have a soul, this probably isn't a fruitful conversation since it would be moot, I think.


So what do you say?



49 Days after conception, when the Pineal Gland is formed, which is also the day that the gender in a fetus can be determined.  Dr. Rick Strassman hypothesized that the Pineal Gland was the link to the soul, and that DMT which he believed was perhaps produced by the Pineal Gland (it IS found in our brains, but where it comes from we're not exactly sure) was somewhat of a gateway for the soul to connect with entities of another plane/dimension/hyperspace/insert whatever you want here to describe what he was talking about.

It's been a long time since I read the book (DMT: The Spirit Molecule), but it was an interesting (short) read about studies in I beleive New Mexico about what he thought was up.  I recommend it, if not for the eye opener.

A Soul / Free Will / The Ability to Self-Perceive  - - It's all relative to the model of your belief system.  You have to go with what YOU feel is right.  Do YOU Believe in souls?  If so, when do you intuitively KNOW them to be created?  Doesn't religion cover this?! :wink:

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: zer0ne]
    #8109618 -

So no one believes the soul is present from conception?

I myself believe the soul probably comes to be after totipotency ceases, around two weeks from what I've read.  For that reason, I think any sort of abortion law targeting abortion at less than two weeks is indefensible.


And Yawning, thanks for the props on 'moot'.  :smile:

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: johnm214]
    #8110474 -

The "soul", for what I think its worth, appears when an individual is conscious of experience.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: zer0ne]
    #8110493 -

Do you have a link supporting this stuff? I find it unlikely that exactly 49 days after conception all of this shit happens for everyone.

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: TheCow]
    #8110653 -

It's in the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
Tibetan Book of the Dead

It all boils down to...
:shrug:
whatever you have Faith in


--------------------

“You've got as many lives as you like, and more, even ones you don't want.” - George Harrison

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: dirtworshipper]
    #8110689 -

Yeah Cow, knowledge is overrated. :razz:


--------------------

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: dirtworshipper]
    #8110726 -

dirtworshipper said:
It's probably from reading Dr. Rick Strassman and the Tibetan Book of the Dead

but it's believed the soul enters the body after 49 days
which is ironically the same time that that DMT is said to be produced in the brain

:shrug:

that's interesting though.
3 identical triplets
wow


so does that mean that the roe v wade limit should be shortened to 49 days??...i dont have a problem with a time limit on abortions but thats prolly not enough...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: dirtworshipper]
    #8111143 -

dirtworshipper said:
It all boils down to...
:shrug:
whatever you have Faith in


Which is to say, of course, no one knows one way or another so people just decide to believe whatever they want, regardless. :hehehe:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8111275 -

Quote:
so does that mean that the roe v wade limit should be shortened to 49 days??...i dont have a problem with a time limit on abortions but thats prolly not enough...



Maybe, but should law and morals be identical?  Enforcement concerns are another matter.

--
Quote:
Which is to say, of course, no one knows one way or another so people just decide to believe whatever they want, regardless. :hehehe:


I think you can say that in some instances you can demonstrate there is not a human present, such as when their is one zygot (prior to the splits).

At that point there were not any souls.  I refuse to believe that god would create a soul in a mass of cells, then remove it from half those cells when we split it, then add another soul.  Then repeat.  It binds god to our whims, whatever you decide god to be, even nature.

And it doesn't make any sense that there would be a point in time that a soul would be created, yet you could produce another soul by splitting that person in half.  Doesn't work for us, why would it work for a zygote?  It goes against the notion of souls being unique and permanently attached to the host for its life, which most of us would agree upon.


I think claiming life starts before totipotency ends is hard to defend.

Afterwards, I think at some point a soul develops.  It may be even after birth, who knows.

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: johnm214]
    #8111284 -

johnm214 said:
I think you can say that in some instances you can demonstrate there is not a human present, such as when their is one zygot (prior to the splits).


What does that have to do with a soul? :shrug:

Quote:
Afterwards, I think at some point a soul develops.  It may be even after birth, who knows.


What is a soul, and why do you think it develops at some point?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8111529 -

Quote:
What is a soul, and why do you think it develops at some point?


I define a soul as that which sepperates the person from the living body.  I'd think that has the personality along with it.  What sepperates a living body without brain function, by many views on the subject, from the living person who's interacting with their world.

From my line of thinking, dualism is the only philosophy of body vs. 'mind' that is possible to comport with our feelings and observations.  This whole argument is somewhat moot if you buy a notion that the 'soul' is a consequence and one with the body.

But from the perspective of the religious objection to abortion, they are all dualists, so the 'life begins at conception' argument can be argued against as follows:

---
Quote:
What does that have to do with a soul? :shrug:


For a soul to exist with respect to a body, it has to have come to be at some point.

To claim gametes have souls is possible, and unprovable, but it doesn't fit with the view that the soul is only present in living people, gametes are not living people, and their sheer numbers, and the liklihood that they will die, makes them unlikely to have a soul in my mind.

So at some point the soul must be bestowed.  If it is at conception ,their is a problem.


You have one mass of cells, with one soul.  What happens when you split them into two beings, each able to mature and live a normal life?  Who gets the original soul?  How is this determined?  How does the second soul form?  If its not at conception, then their must be a second point in time that soul's can form, such as when they split.  If the souls were bestowed by the twos when the egg was fertilized, as god forsaw your interference, that reduces us to predestined lives, which isn't comforting, and it allows one being to have two soules, which doesn't fit with the definition of the soul.

And with regards to teh suggestion that the soul may embody the split zygote, or the fertilized egg, what sepperates these cells from a blood cell?  Or from a stem cell?  Each has a complete genome, and all the machinery necessary to give rise to life, why does the zygote alone get a soul?  To say its because it will give rise to life is again to reduce us to a predestined path, as god would have to either know that this is the case, or simply bestow souls on the basis of probability... the zygot is more likely to give rise to the person than the umbilicus is.  Is a probability distribution really how we imagine the macroscopic world to work, and how god would work?

So it is hard to accept one egg holds three souls, it is hard to accept that one egg's progeny splits and the soul likewise sequesters in one mass of cells, and another appears from somewhere, so that the two masses will have souls when they develop into people.  It is likewise hard to imagine that the skin cells we have contain souls, and how do we differentiate them from the zygote, except through probability assesments that they will develop into 'people.'

It seems the earliest a soul could be bestowed upon a 'person' would be after the cells diferentiate and cease totipotency.  This would eliminate two souls for one body, splitting souls, and gods who simply follow us around granting souls at our bequest.

And since I don't believe my skin cells have a soul, or that the person who is 'alive' in the legal sense, but without a head, has a soul, I think the period during which the soul arises must be after totipotency ceases and before an obvious individual personality manifests itself... when,  I don't know.

I'm sure I left out some points, so I welcome your critique.  Additionally, I realize this discussion begs the question of 'do we have a soul' for which I presume yes, this being the reason it is wrong to kill a person, but not to kill a mosquito.  To a certain extent, this philosophy can be reduced to unproven presumptions on this ground.

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #8111594 -

fireworks_god said:
You know fully well I ate fortune cookies that don't predict the future. :nono:



--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: Women gives birth to identical triplets, when did their souls come to be? [Re: Lion]
    #8111599 -

Lion said:
fireworks_god said:
You know fully well I ate fortune cookies that don't predict the future. :nono:




:rofl2:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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