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Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul
    #4247258 -

The brain is composed of two hemispheres. Each is good at processing information in different ways, and most people preferentially exhibit the personality characteristics of one side or the other. The left brain controls the right half of the body, and right brain controls the left.

The left brain is described using words as: logical, sequential, rational, analytical, objective, looks at parts. The right brain is described using words as: random, intuitive, holistic, synthesizing, subjective, looks at wholes.

There is a structure in the center of the brain (see pic below) called the Corpus Callosum. It is a broad, thick mass of nerves connecting the cerebral hemispheres. This is the 'ethernet' connection between the two sides of the brain. The CC integrates the two hemispheres into one unit of personality, memory, and stimulus/response behavior.

Click to enlarge:


Severing the CC is a controversial surgery used to control violent, medically intractable, multifocal epilepsy. During the procedure, the surgeon opens the skull, lays back the brain's coverings and, with a tool called a cerebral retractor, exposes the corpus callosum. He then snips the structure in two and completes the procedure.

When the patient recovers, his personality is dissociated into two distinct psyches. The controversy around this procedure stems from the Jekyll and Hyde aura surrounding this side effect which is called the "Split Brain" syndrome.

The brain houses two separate realms of conscious awareness; two sensing, perceiving, thinking and remembering systems.  If a patient whose CC has been severed holds up something like a comb or a coffee cup in his left hand, he cannot speak its name. Transferred to the right hand -- no trouble at all. If a card with a printed word is held up in the patient's left field of view, he cannot read it, but when it's in his right field of view, he can.

If a person's psyche springs forth from a founding, ethereal soul, then why the drastic two-personality results of a severed CC?

Other symptoms include competitive movement between the two hands. When the patient holds something in the left hand, the right exhibits un-willed, but well-coordinated, repetitive reaching and groping at the hand holding the object.

Also seen in such patients is a loss of spontaneous speech since the manual dominance and speech centers are in opposite hemispheres. That's to say, when the mind in one hemisphere thinks of something to say, it has no way to communicate it to the other mind to cause the utterance.

The inability of right-handers to name or describe an object in the left hand, even when it is being appropriately manipulated (like holding a pencil properly) is another symptom.

Split brain subjects progressively acquire a variety of strategies for circumventing their interhemispheric transfer deficits. A common example is for the patient to speak out loud the name of an object palpated in the right hand; because the right hemisphere can recognize many individual words, the object can then be retrieved with the left hand.

Additional unrelated evidence for the idea that the brain is only a very powerful symbol processing machine is the fact that patients with damage to a structure called the Angular Gyrus cannot interpret metaphors; they can only comprehend the literal meaning of the words even when the metaphor is explained to them. All other language skills remain intact. If language was being communicated to a soul by the brain, then why the loss of only metaphors when the AG is damaged? The AG is also credited with the classical Out Of Body Experience.

More and more neurological evidence is found every day that the brain, the psyche, and consciousness are not mystical or metaphysical phenomena, but are actually just emergent properties of complex biology. How much more evidence must be provided by medical science before people will stop clinging to mystical or metaphysical explanations for consciousness that are not supported by the evidence?  :mushroom2:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/02/05 10:45 AM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247268 -

I don't understand why the left and right hand correlate to the left and right brain. That seems odd to me. Interesting post though. More and more we seem to be the result of complex physical interactions.

Neurology is the way to understand the human brain, and subsequently our mind and actions, NOT psychology.. but that a different thread I guess.


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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: looner2]
    #4247274 -

I don't understand why the left and right hand correlate to the left and right brain.

The nerves that drive right-body motor functions come only from the left hemisphere, and the other way around for the other side.

This is why people who experience a stroke are paralized on only one side of the body.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247277 -

Oh yeah didn't think of that.

For an experiment I held up my right hand and said first thing in my mind, "coffee cup" , and then put it in my left hand and held it up and said, "beautiful floral design". This proves that article correct! I'm such the scientist.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: looner2]
    #4247285 -

I think this co-relates to:

NLP

n : the branch of information science that deals with natural language information [syn: natural language processing, NLP, human language technology]


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247307 -

Thats a very nice thread diploid,especially for the ones versed in sciences that do not think that "shroud of mystery" covers every scientific set of data,but its product of studying,examining and pure logic.

Personally im not yet discrediting the presence of "soul" ,soul could be something more vital (read :what makes us tick) than a proccessing center such as the brain.After all what people name "soul" might not be the carrier of our intellectual properties ,since the brain is ,or an even more far fetched theory the brain could simply be the organ that somehow soul uses to declare its actions. IF we break the receiving/controlling apparatus ,malfunction is observed.

For the moment being though i fully trust the data you present because i have done my research on it and ended with the same info! SO why people continue this "paranormal" "metaphysical" explanations? Simply ,its a matter of emotion! However many evidence you will procure people will continue their "metaphysical journeys". They find it more "sacred" more "cool" more "real" if their OOBE is a matter of the "etheral" "immaterial" plane than one of purely biological origin.People believe in soul,after all they are gonna die,its cooler for them to think that something continues living after biological ceasation!

Personally i dont think that a biological explanation of OOBE dims the quality of what i am experiencing when im experiencing it.It makes me even more thrilled to find out that such phenomena are hardwired in my brain,that my perception and proccessing organ can produce such a magnificent array of effects! I think ,whatever the explanation,those sensations are one of a kind...Does it matter if they dont stem from etherial soul ?

As a snack:

Once in a forum dealing with Esoteric,Metaphysical and supernatural phenomena the subject of "astral projection" was discussed.Everyone of course jumped straight to metaphysical theories on it.I entered the thread and pinpointed data about the brain,which many felt that they treatened their "sacred hard-to-earn experience" and dismissed them.One of the best comments one gave me was a quotation from Nicolai Tesla that says "When science starts investigating the paranormal and the metaphysical,it would make progress of centuries within decades!"

To thich i responded : "Nicolai Tesla though was immensly knowledgable on Physics and on normal phenomena BEFORE he started investigating the unknown. So lets take his example : Before studying the meta-physics,the extra sensory perception and the para-normal lets first be masters of physics, sensory perception and the 'normal".

Needless to say,noone commented on my answer.


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Entheomation's SEED Ethical Vendor Project.Please support it if you value your plants!

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Psiloman]
    #4247329 -

I will venture a comment. ---Beatiful, right on, Yes!! :thumbup: :cool: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #4247441 -

Sorry, but I don't get it... just because we can show that the brain has structures and those structures control different aspects of our behavior and perception does not mean that a person does or does not have a soul. It seems shallow at best to claim that something doesn't exist before defining what that something is. The author is assuming that if a soul exists, that it somehow imparts itself into our behavior and perception independently of the brain. What happens if the soul actually interfaces to the body through the brain... by tearing up the brain we mess with the interface between the soul and the body... and *gasp* we see the effects described above.

I see this type of horrid "pseudo-science" spouted by the creationists all the time. I guess it shouldn't surprise me to see such drivel spouted by the wanna-be scientists as well.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Seuss]
    #4247459 -

The author is assuming

I am the author.

It seems shallow at best to claim that something doesn't exist before defining what that something is.

I defined it in a roundabout way in the opening post, but more precisely, I define it, for purposes of this thread, as the metaphysical, incorporeal, ethereal origin of a person's psyche. How's that?

just because we can show that the brain has structures and those structures control different aspects of our behavior and perception does not mean that a person does or does not have a soul

My reasoning goes like this.

If the soul is where we exist, then it is where incoming language is interpreted and from where outgoing language is originated. Why, then, would damage to the Angular Gyrus cause the soul to lose ONLY the ability to interpret metaphors while all other language generating and interpreting abilities remain intact?

This tells me that the processing of metaphors is IN THE BRAIN, not in a soul because the words themselves, and the literal meaning of those words can still be interpreted by someone with damage to the AG. In other words, the words themselves must be making it ungarbled to the soul, so why the difficulty with the interpretation of metaphors? By extension of this, I conclude that the processing of language is also in the brain, and not in a soul, and if this is true, then why invent a soul to explain what, from all evidence, is simply a neurological function?

This doesn't prove there is no soul, but it sure gives the open mind something to think about...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/02/05 10:33 AM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247473 -

I knew all about that, did it all in Psychology!

Anyway, in response to your question...

Nothing can be proven, "there are no facts, only interpretations."


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"Whatever you do, you need to keep moving.  Because when you stop moving you die (physically and emotionally).

Good luck and blessings of happiness and fortune." ~ RandalFlagg RIP


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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #4247508 -

I have stated this before, which is much like what Psiloman had to say: The brain is merely a communication device between soul and body. If we were to damage or rearrange any parts of the brain, we would inevitably have a communication problem. Many computers nowadays have dual caches and processing units which cooperate much like the two regions of our brain do (compared to your example). If we were to remove the ability for one cpu to communicate with its other cpu i am willing to bet some very similar problems would arise. more often than not, only one cpu would function at one time, instead of having the overlapping power and symbiotic function of both.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #4247519 -

The Truth is really inside each of you, amongst the chaos mentioned. Its odd that nobody has mentioned that a soul, the existence of a soul, could be the culminating energy that arises from living biology. Your consciousness! We have all let some one else define SOUL for us. I question their intentions. Confusion!? Now, if we inherently have two halves, as mentioned, then the joining of these as ONE could be called atonement. At-ONE-MENT. GOD. The holy trinity. The father, the son, the holy spirit. The other, or Truth, you and your truth, and the joining of the tow hemispheres or entities (holy spirit). AT ONE! Science still has a long way to come, in my opinion, to explain GOD. Like apples and oranges. Fruit anyway though, good try. haha. Just ideas.

Psyilly

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Seuss]
    #4247531 -

To thich i responded : "Nicolai Tesla though was immensly knowledgable on Physics and on normal phenomena BEFORE he started investigating the unknown. So lets take his example : Before studying the meta-physics,the extra sensory perception and the para-normal lets first be masters of physics, sensory perception and the 'normal".
____________________________________________________________________

Sorry for the confusion. :confused: I was saying yes to this part in particular.

I agree that we no nothing for sure, but we make a best guess on the best evidence we have. Scientific expermentation is one of the best tools we have. Still I'm not absolutely sure it can answer all questions?  :mushrooms


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247583 -

Quote:
If the soul is where we exist, then it is where incoming speech is interpreted and from where outgoing speech is originated. Why, then, would damage to the Angular Gyrus cause the soul to lose ONLY the ability to interpret metaphors while all other speech generating and interpreting abilities remain intact?


Diploid, when I read that, all it tells me is that the soul psyche no longer has the ability to express that aspect through the human physical form.

It doesn't mean the soul "lost" it.

We know you through your typed words. If your computer processor had a glitch that did not allow for the typed word "the" to process and it was missing from all of your posts, does it mean you lost the ability to use it when forming your sentence structures in your mind, or that that the medium you express yourself to us through lost its ability to process it and bring it through to us in your sentences?

Your logic is circular if you equate the soul psyche with originating in the brain itself.

Your assumption says the soul is where we exist yet your example is based on the brain being where we exist. If you kept with the assumption that soul is where we exist then you will not find proof for or against it in the brain.

Thats like trying to prove France doesn't exist working with a map of mars. France didn't originate from the planet mars and you won't find evidence of it there. Or a more accurate analogy would be like saying Bachs Piano concerto doesn't exist because you only have drums and guitars to bring the sound of a piano through. The sound of a piano doesn't originate from a drum or a guitar and you won't find evidence of it there.

In my view, brain is seen as a proccessor/medium for the soul to express itself through in this physical plane of existance.

If you think physical existance feeds the idea of soul then start to help neuro scientists explain savanat genious's. There is a man who can not tie his own shoes, but he can tell you what the day of the week any date on the calander will fall on. If he was asked, what day of the week is June 15th 3056, he could tell you on spot and be correct.

Thats not proof of a soul either.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (06/02/05 11:06 AM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4247592 -

psilocyberin said:
If we were to remove the ability for one cpu to communicate with its other cpu i am willing to bet some very similar problems would arise. more often than not, only one cpu would function at one time, instead of having the overlapping power and symbiotic function of both.


None of which says anything of the existance of the fat-assed person sitting in a leather chair in front of the monitor of said computer. :grin: :lol: :thumbup:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Gomp]
    #4247596 -

""More and more neurological evidence is found every day that the brain, the psyche, and consciousness are not mystical or metaphysical phenomena, but are actually just emergent properties of complex biology.""

what would be the difference exactly?


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4247597 -

gettinjiggywithit said:
....there is way to much we still do not understand about the brain and "mind" to start jumping to huge conclusions.


"Chasm jumping", if you will. :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247598 -

Diploid:

What you're doing here is pulling out the straw man argument. You've pulled the notion of what a soul is out of your ass and then proven your ass wrong. If I were to claim that a soul was kind of a wispy sort of see-through version of whoever it inhabited and was in control of all cognitive functions independant of any biological material (brain) then you might have some kind of argument, but as your little write-up stands, all you've done is negated the argument of some invented hyper-naive fantasy version of an imaginary idiot. Here's a condensed version of your post:

Definition of soul: Some kind of magical thing that overrides brain function. <----- remember this is your silly definition

+

Function of brain as proven through scientific method

= My silly definition of a soul (as something magical and mystical) is totally false! YAY!

It's like your shadowboxing against a semi-retarded version of yourself. Have I made myself clear? <---- Not rhetorical

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4247601 -

We know you through your typed words. If your computer processor had a glitch that did not allow for the typed word "the"

This analogy is not appropriate.

An appropriate analogy would be that, if you are the soul, and I'm and the external world, then all my words arrive at your computer intact (this is evidenced by the fact that people with damage to the AG understand all non-metaphorical language perfectly) but you can only read, understand, and reply to me as long as I don't use metaphors.

In other words, if I email you that my refrigerator is running... down the street, you will not be able to grasp the joke even though all the words arrived intact.

I don't buy the explanation that if the brain is damaged, then such a selective deficit in communication from the real world to the soul would occur, leaving all other language skills unaffected.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: rogue_pixie]
    #4247609 -

rogue_pixie said:
I knew all about that, did it all in Psychology!

Anyway, in response to your question...

Nothing can be proven, "there are no facts, only interpretations."


Nothing 'is True', Everything is Permissible.
~~ Hasan bin Sabbah


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4247610 -

I will delete that part from the reply as it is irrelevent to the considerations in the rest of my reply.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #4247627 -

You've pulled the notion of what a soul is out of your ass

Please point out someone who has pulled the notion of what a soul is from elsewhere.  :wink:

Definition of soul

Since every mystic has their own favorite definition, often conflicting, of a soul, I have to start somewhere, so I chose one. If you know of a universal definition, let me know and I'll adopt it.

Some kind of magical thing that overrides brain function. <----- remember this is your silly definition

That's not my definition. My definition of soul is the seat of consciousness; the place/thing from which a person's psyche originates and which manifests itself in the physical world through the brain. This is also many mystics' definition, so it isn't original to me.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4247632 -

Quote:
The brain is merely a communication device between soul and body.


The most complex thing in the known universe (I heard that somewhere im sure) is MERELY a communication device between soul and body?

I like the way you state it as if its an empirical fact rather than a fairly flaky belief system!

Im not saying the "soul" doesnt exist just that with out some more convincing proof than "I can feel it" or "Guru wotsisname said it is so" it remains firmly in the realms of vague probability as opposed to something that definitely IS and something that supercededes a "mere brain" in terms of significance.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247636 -

Diploid said:
I don't buy the explanation that if the brain is damaged, then such a selective deficit in communication from the real world to the soul would occur, leaving all other language skills unaffected.


Then maybe you spent all of your money on drugs and can't afford to purcahse it. :lol:

If an entity sent signals through various wires, and if one of the receivers attached to a specific wire was broken, so that it became incapable of receiving the signal sent through that wire by an entity, but yet all of the other receivers and attached wires continued to exist as intended, capable of receiving signals, then, obviously, it is still possible for other, functional receivers to receive the signals sent through the wire by the entity. The fact that a signal receiver is damaged and incapable of receiving signals doesn't negate the fact that other receivers continue to receive their signals. :shocked: :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: GazzBut]
    #4247650 -

GazzBut said:
Quote:
The brain is merely a communication device between soul and body.


The most complex thing in the known universe (I heard that somewhere im sure) is MERELY a communication device between soul and body?

I like the way you state it as if its an empirical fact rather than a fairly flaky belief system!

Im not saying the "soul" doesnt exist just that with out some more convincing proof than "I can feel it" or "Guru wotsisname said it is so" it remains firmly in the realms of vague probability as opposed to something that definitely IS and something that supercededes a "mere brain" in terms of significance.


Yeah, didnt really mean it to be a fact. I just Know it to myself. Sorry for the fact stating in a forum that constantly proves that nothing is true or has an intrinsic nature.
I was also misspoken by saying it was merely a communication device ebtween the body and soul, IMO it is a communication device between the universe and the soul also, which is a pretty complex function.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4247651 -

If an entity sent signals through various wires, and if one of the receivers attached to a specific wire was broken, so that it became incapable of receiving the signal sent through that wire by an entity, but yet all of the other receivers and attached wires continued to exist as intended, capable of receiving signals, then, obviously, it is still possible for other, functional receivers to receive the signals sent through the wire by the entity.

Your analogy, like Jiggy's, doesn't apply.

There is no damage to any wires as evidenced by the fact that all other language skills remain unaffected. All the words get to the destination. We know this because the literal meaning is understood; it is only the interpretation of non-literal meaning, the metaphors, which are lost.

The data arrives undamaged at the hypothetical soul. Why can't the soul then interpret the meta-data, the metaphor, in the language? This has nothing to do with the 'wires'.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/02/05 11:32 AM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247658 -

Diploid said:
[That's not my definition. My definition of soul is the seat of consciousness; the place/thing from which a person's psyche originates and which manifests itself in the physical world through the brain. This is also many mystics' definition, so it isn't original to me.



It seems that the definition of the psyche itself and a seperate definition of the psyche as simply the soul would be responsible for this whole "thing". :grin: I would not personally define the soul as the "psyche".

If I was feeling frisky enough to even use the word "soul", it would be in the manner that the soul would be defined as a source for consciousness itself, pure awareness, and would not be defined in the manner that a seperate, biological (and subsequent mental system) uses their access to that consciousness, awareness.

Also note that using the term "soul' in this context would not necessarily imply any connotation of the origin or force responsible for such a consciousness or awareness, it would be used simply as a term to represent exactly the definition of it.

:stoned: :stoned:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4247687 -

It seems that the definition of the psyche itself and a seperate definition of the psyche as simply the soul would be responsible for this whole "thing". I would not personally define the soul as the "psyche".

This is exactly why I had to draw a line on the ground and go from there. I could spend all night looking up different definitions for soul and psyche, but then I'd never get this thread started.

None of this definition talk address the question of why, if a person is more than a brain, can they interpret a set of words literally and metaphorically, but if their AG is damage, they lose ONLY the metaphor and all the words can still be literally processed.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247702 -

Quote:
I don't buy the explanation that if the brain is damaged, then such a selective deficit in communication from the real world to the soul would occur, leaving all other language skills unaffected.




Guess what? I don't buy it either. Who says the soul isn't laughing it's ass off? The person that thinks it is its brain or exists in its brain has no way of knowing it either.

The only reason that my analogy didn't "fit" to you is because your initial assumption is flawed and circular.

The idea of an eternal soul self is that it exists independently from the brain and the body and uses the brain and body as a vehicle/medium/tool of expression in this physical plane.

That is the assumption you are looking to take on. If you take it on assuming the soul is the brain, you already started out with the soul not existing independently from the brain and therefor must not exist beyond it.

:lol: Can't you see how NOT incredible that is to do and where the logic is flawed?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4247706 -

Main Entry: Psy?che
Pronunciation: 'sI-kE
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin, from Greek psychE soul
1 : a princess loved by Cupid
2 not capitalized [Greek psychE] a : SOUL, SELF b : MIND

I have read the same argument several times in this thread:

The function of the brain proves the non-existence of the soul

No, it doesn't!

This seems a bit pointless to me. We can study the function of the brain, and cannot scientifically study the function/existence of the soul. Why assert that the two are correlated?

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247710 -

Diploid said:
The data arrives undamaged at the hypothetical soul. Why can't the soul then interpret the meta-data, the metaphor, in the language? This has nothing to do with the 'wires'.


.....

Diploid said:
Additional unrelated evidence for the idea that the brain is only a very powerful symbol processing machine is the fact that patients with damage to a structure called the Angular Gyrus cannot interpret metaphors




It sounds to me as though damage to this structure would negate the possibility of communication of any evidence of metaphorical value in the rest of the data arriving at the hypothetical soul, as though the specific structure was responsible for communicating that evidence.

If I say to you, "The walls have ears", and all of your structures responsible for communicating specific collections of data of one's experience to some hypothetical soul are functional, but the specific structure that is responsible for comprehension of ontological levels of meaning in words that do not, on their own, carry that meaning at face-value, then, quite obviously, the words at face-value will arrive at this proposed, hypothetical soul, while any possible metahporical and ontological levels of meaning associated with these words will not arrive, as a result of the structure specifically responsible for the task of delivering that data being damaged. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4247732 -

If you take it on assuming the soul is the brain, you already started out with the soul not existing independently from the brain and therefor must not exist beyond it.

I'm not making any assumptions. I'm only drawing a conclusion from the available data.

But let's play your game. Let's assume the soul exists. (Defined roughly as the place where your incorporeal self exists and which will continue to exist after your body dies).

Now, it follows that when I speak to you metaphorically, the words eventually make it to your soul where you grasp the literal meaning as well as the metaphorical one.

If the AG in your brain is damaged and I again speak to you metaphorically, the words still make their way to your soul as evidenced by your perfect literal interpretation of the words; but try as you may, you cannot grasp the metaphor in those words.

How would you explain this observation using the soul paradigm?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/02/05 11:51 AM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Veritas]
    #4247740 -

The function of the brain proves the non-existence of the soul

No one has claimed proof, only persuasive evidence.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247748 -

Diploid said:
If the AG in your brain is damaged and I again speak to you metaphorically, the words still make their way to your soul as evidenced by your literal interpretation of the words; but try as you may, you cannot grasp the metaphor in those words.

How would you explain this observation using the soul paradigm?


As I already have, the simple fact that your brain is also responsible for creating the metaphor in those words. :lol:

The words themselves do not carry the metaphor, nor any meaning at all. It is obvious that different structures in the brain are responsible for different levels of meaning, as damaging a specific structure only results in the disapperance of the ability to think through on a more metaphorical, ontological level.

If you are implying that the soul itself is what "does the thinking", then your implication is baseless and not congruent with my understanding of the mechanics of the mind. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4247751 -

It sounds to me as though damage to this structure would negate the possibility of communication of any evidence of metaphorical value in the rest of the data arriving at the hypothetical soul

Why do you use the words "the rest of the data"? The data consists ONLY of the words. ALL of them arrive at the destination as evidenced by the patient's ability to interpret the words literally.

You keep suggesting that a damaged AG prevents some of the data from getting through. The net sum of the data is the words and they all arrive or the literal meaning would be lost.

ONLY the ability to interpret beyond the literal words, the metaphor, is lost.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247766 -

As I learned in neuropsychological assessment class long ago, there are people who are born without a corpus callosum and the brain seems to adapt.

The unrelated part to your inquiry is the identification of the word "soul" with personality and neuroanatomy. The word 'soul,' despite its derivation from the Greek 'psyche,' with mythic, metaphysical as well as empirical meanings, tends to have a strictly metaphysical meaning in English. That being the case, one must use 'the right tool for the job,' and neuroscience is not the right tool for handling metaphysics. Metaphysics is best handled with metaphors and symbols.

That subjective psychological experiences have corresponding physical loci in the brain is fascinating, but the point here is in the word 'corresponding.' There is no proof, only theories - materialistic theories - that consciousness is an epiphenomenon of neural processes. If the very fabric of space-time turns out to be 'psychoid' (to use the Jungian term), then the universe will turn out to be as psychic as it is physical, and the ancients who spoke to the notion of 'soul' as being 'psychosomatic' will have recognized that humans are indeed Microcosms of the Macrocosmic universe, because spacetime is psychosomatic and we are one-with the fabric of space-time. Jung died before he and physicist Wolfgang Pauli could put this idea into a full theory, but the idea has been around a long time. It undercuts all the materialistic thinkers who seek to reduce consciousness to a collection of physical reactions.

This argument eventually harkens back to the act of creation - to a point before physics, as we understand it, existed. The word that means 'before physics' is metaphysics and at that point one has to enjoin the thoughts of metaphysicians for insights, not physicists or physical scientists. In the Kabbala, for example, Soul exists in a 'world' which is 'before' the world of Personality, but here 'before' means 'ontologically prior to,' not 'temporally prior to.' It means that like you said, Personality emerges from Soul in the Tree that symbolizes both the human being (Microcosm) and the universe (Macrocosm). The Personality, as a psychic component is 'conjoined to' the Physical, whereas in the Kabbalist system, the Soul includes but transcends the physical Body and psychic Personality, and exists independently of the body and personality.

Spiritual development means crossing the 'Veil of Paroketh' from Personality to Soul, and identifying oneself with the latter so that one does not think of oneself as a Body and a Personality with a Soul, but rather, as a Soul that is clothed with a Body and corresponding Personality. OOBE's and profound Psychedelic Experience can often catalyze this development. One has then entered the sphere of Tiphereth, and from there alone can further development in higher spheres and Union with GOD take place. Of course, as you can see, all of this is entirely metaphysical, yet said to occur while still quite alive and psychophysical.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Peace.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4247774 -

As I already have, the simple fact that your brain is also responsible for creating the metaphor in those words.

So, when I die, my soul will no longer be able to understand metaphors? Alright...


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247775 -

Diploid said:
[Why do you use the words "the rest of the data"? The data consists ONLY of the words. ALL of them arrive at the destination as evidenced by the patient's ability to interpret the words literally.


The data doesn't only consist of the words, it also consists of all of the processing of those words that has been done by the mind, which is responsible for the meaning and the interpretation of those words. One structure responsible for a certain level of interpretation of those words is damaged, that is not transferred to the hypothetical soul, nice and simple. :grin:

Quote:
You keep suggesting that a damaged AG prevents some of the data from getting through. The net sum of the data is the words and they all arrive or the literal meaning would be lost.


The literal interpretation of those words is also part of the data, which is why it is not lost (it resulted from a seperate structure of the brain).

Quote:
ONLY the ability to interpret beyond the literal words, the metaphor, is lost.


Because of the fact that the structure from which that ability stems is damaged. :lol:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247787 -

Diploid said:
So, when I die, my soul will no longer be able to understand metaphors? Alright...


If such a hypothetical soul is capable of thinking for its own, then why would it be associated with a brain and its programming, the mind, which exists to think and process, in the first place? :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4247820 -

If such a hypothetical soul is capable of thinking for its own, then why would it be associated with a brain

I dunno; this is your assertion, not mine. You claim metaphors are processed in the brain. If so, by logical extension, when I die, my soul, without the benefit of a brain, will be unable to grasp metaphors.

I don't buy this. You're making things up to explain the neurological evidence rather than taking an honest look at that evidence and the likely consequences it represents.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247843 -

Diploid said:
I dunno; this is your assertion, not mine. You claim metaphors are processed in the brain. If so, by logical extension, when I die, my soul, without the benefit of a brain, will be unable to grasp metaphors.... I don't buy this.


I do not understand how your statement is by logical extension. Who has defined that a soul was ever able to "grasp" anything? According to your logic, a soul doesn't even exist, so I do not understand how you attempt to refute my claim that the brain is responsible for understanding on a metaphorical level by not buying that your soul will be incapable of "understanding metaphor" after your physical death. :wtf: :lol:

If only logic was something you could ingest, eh? :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247875 -

Diploid said:
If you take it on assuming the soul is the brain, you already started out with the soul not existing independently from the brain and therefor must not exist beyond it.

I'm not making any assumptions. I'm only drawing a conclusion from the available data.

But let's play your game. Let's assume the soul exists. (Defined roughly as the place where your incorporeal self exists and which will continue to exist after your body dies).

Now, it follows that when I speak to you metaphorically, the words eventually make it to your soul where you grasp the literal meaning as well as the metaphorical one.

If the AG in your brain is damaged and I again speak to you metaphorically, the words still make their way to your soul as evidenced by your perfect literal interpretation of the words; but try as you may, you cannot grasp the metaphor in those words.

How would you explain this observation using the soul paradigm?


Easy. The damage in the brain won't allow for the soul that understood the humor to express that it did through the same brain that could not process the humor in the first place.

It's like what Markos said. The tools of neuro science can help us to understand the functions of the brain. The tools of the meta physician can help us understand how the functions of the non physical corresponds with the physical.

If you want to understand the non physical soul, you must use the tools of the meta physician. Neuro scientific tools will not be able to detect it. That's why you can't find evidence for it.

It's like you're trying to say that fish do not exists because you have searched high and low with your binoculars in the orange grove and they are not there, case closed.

Of course not. You have to go out of the orange grove and into the water with your scuba gear to find the fish.

A neuro scientist will only find tissues and chemical reactions and electrical impulses. Of course he will never find evidence of a soul there.

Your brain will find the brain in another. Your soul will find the soul in another.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4247878 -

If I say to you, "The walls have ears"...

You are really scaring me! How can that be? Whose ears are they?

*Swami whips head back and forth in a paranoiac frenzy* :shiftyeyes: :oogle:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4247889 -

Of course he will never find evidence of a soul there.

Of course, there is no evidence of a soul anywhere. It is a millenia-old superstition based soley (no pun intended) on ignorance.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4247891 -

Easy. The damage in the brain won't allow for the soul that understood the humor to express that it did through the same brain that could not process the humor in the first place.

So, when I die, my soul, absent a brain, will be unable to understand humor.  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4247906 -

exactly! which is one of the reasons i keep coming back to this corporeal world!

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4247990 -

As I said, some people realize that they are a soul, and if you're not one of 'em, then check your name-calling. If you want to experience yourself as meat-with-mentation then go right ahead, but those of us whose Work is to identify our essential self with consciousness do not appreciate being called "ignorant" by meat-heads.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4248022 -

Swami - what if soul is defined in terms of something that does exist? i've seen many definitions for soul so which ones are you talking about when you say it is based in ignorance?

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4248053 -

That reminds me of a Soviet cosmonaut, early in the space-race, who laughingly reported back to his Communist comrades that he saw no god through his capsule's window as he entered space. And for those equally concrete [headed] people who heard this and were disappointed !...they were all equally deceived. GOD IS Real for those of us who call Ultimate Reality GOD, and GOD IS nowhere to be found becuse, like Consciousness, GOD does not occupy space!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Deviate]
    #4248067 -

"So, when I die, my soul, absent a brain, will be unable to understand humor."

this has been the hole in your arguement all along, and it's quite a big one. the abilty to understand metaphor and humour is a function of the brain that comes with language and communication, not a function of the soul. when you die your soul will no longer require the abilty to interperet these things, just as before you were born.


--------------------


what i'm listening to: http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/ajnachakra/

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248089 -

Diploid said:
Easy. The damage in the brain won't allow for the soul that understood the humor to express that it did through the same brain that could not process the humor in the first place.

So, when I die, my soul, absent a brain, will be unable to understand humor.  :tongue:


Where did you get that conclusion from? That's the opposite of what I said.


Diploid, you have the idea of yourself so tied to your body and brain that it seems you can't even theorize or conceive with imagination for discussions sake that the soul is not your brain or body. I don't know what else to say to help point out that, that's where the flaw in your original post is.

The only way to perceive soul is with the eyes of the soul, not your physical eyeballs. They are not equipped to detect the non physical.
Your inner eye is.

To explore in this area you have to shift from being a physician to a meta-physician. The tools are different and the inner eye is used. What ones sees with it can only be described in metaphors for the purpose of relating essence and energetic structures beyond the physical. That's why you see so many here using metaphors to relate to you that the idea of the soul self is that it is not the body or brain.

I don't care to prove that a soul self exists. Just wanted to point out that your post only proved a physical body can detect physical bodies.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4248091 -

GOD IS Real

How can you be so sure in the absence of any evidence other than your subjective and necessarily biased feeling?

Sometimes I wish I could have absolute faith like that but every time I go there, I'm convinced that I'm just kidding myself.

GOD IS nowhere to be found becuse, like Consciousness, GOD does not occupy space

Music doesn't occupy space either. I believe music exists because it can be detected objectively.

If God is real, why does he play these games? Why not just show up and remove all doubt? What benefit is there to making people struggle with these issues all their life when an omnipotent being could easily alleviate the struggle for truth by simply providing it?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/02/05 01:16 PM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: ajna]
    #4248098 -

when you die your soul will no longer require the abilty to interperet these things

Hmm... sounds kinda boring.  :crazy:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4248102 -

The existence of a soul was posited at around the same time as many other mystical beliefs - ALL of those that could be directly examined turned out to be WRONG, unless one still believes that thunder is God's anger and not colliding super-heated air molecules. This is ignorance.

Let me repeat as this is important: ALL EARLY BELIEFS and EXPLANATIONS concerning the nature of the world that could be empirically challenged WERE IN ERROR; yet some hold the ancients in high-regard as if they were superior beings.

The beliefs that could not be not be directly examined still persist, but with no more basis than the early explanation of thunder.

Take umbrage if you so choose, but anger is not a salient point nor a counter-argument.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/02/05 01:20 PM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4248117 -

Where did you get that conclusion from?

OK, let me take through how I get that conclusion with some questions:

Do you think the interpretation of metaphor occurs in the brain or in the soul?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248138 -

Diploid said:
Sometimes I wish I could have absolute faith like that but every time I go there, I'm convinced that I'm just kidding myself.


It sounds like you have absolute faith in that fact that you are just kidding yourself. :smirk:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

:wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248140 -

LOL @ this post

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4248144 -

fireworks_god said:
I do not understand how your statement is by logical extension. Who has defined that a soul was ever able to "grasp" anything? According to your logic, a soul doesn't even exist, so I do not understand how you attempt to refute my claim that the brain is responsible for understanding on a metaphorical level by not buying that your soul will be incapable of "understanding metaphor" after your physical death. :wtf: :lol:



:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4248153 -

It sounds like you have absolute faith in that fact that you are just kidding yourself.

I have no faith in anything. Don't you see? If it can't be detected, I don't believe it. That's not faith, that's neutrality.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248160 -

I fail to see how any of this has anything to do with existence of spirit/soul


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248170 -

none of diploids threads ever stay on topic.... you start out arguing about frogs and end up arguing about glaucoma.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4248195 -

"OK, let me take through how I get that conclusion with some questions:

Do you think the interpretation of metaphor occurs in the brain or in the soul?"

BRAIN. the very act of interpretation happens in the brain. you do realise the soul doesn't 'think', don't you?


--------------------


what i'm listening to: http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/ajnachakra/

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #4248217 -

Diploid said:
I have no faith in anything. Don't you see?


You stated that everytime you go there, you are convinced you are just kidding yourself. A state of being convinced equates into a state of absolute faith. :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248226 -

I fail to see how any of this has anything to do with existence of spirit/soul

You don't see a relationship between the soul concept and God?  :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248231 -

i dont make any link between God and a soul. not in the sense that one is indicitive of the other.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4248238 -

You stated that everytime you go there, you are convinced you are just kidding yourself. A state of being convinced equates into a state of absolute faith.

Eh, poor choice of words. Perhaps I should have said that every time I go there, I see subjectivity rather than objectivity, and I reject subjectivity on the basis that it can't be distinguished from me kidding myself.  :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248246 -

Diploid said:
I fail to see how any of this has anything to do with existence of spirit/soul

You don't see a relationship between the soul concept and God?  :confused:


I was refering to your original post about brain, memory, personality etc.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248248 -

Diploid said:
Poor choice of words. Perhaps I should have said that every time I go there, I see subjectivity rather than objectivity, and I reject subjectivity on the basis that it can't be distinguished from me kidding myself.  :tongue:


Explain for us how you are ever capable of seeing "objectively". :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248254 -

I was refering to your original post about brain, memory, personality etc.

The main thrust of the original post was a critique of the concept of a soul. Did you not catch the title of this thread?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248258 -

it wasnt really a title that indicated critique, it said "the evidence against a soul"

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248262 -

oh dear, yea, I know that you ARE trying to disprove the concept of a soul, but what I failed to se is how is your analise of human brain a good argument for it


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4248265 -

Swami said:
The existence of a soul was posited at around the same time as many other mystical beliefs - ALL of those that could be directly examined turned out to be WRONG, unless one still believes that thunder is God's anger and not colliding super-heated air molecules. This is ignorance.

Let me repeat as this is important: ALL EARLY BELIEFS and EXPLANATIONS concerning the nature of the world that could be empirically challenged WERE IN ERROR; yet some hold the ancients in high-regard as if they were superior beings.

The beliefs that could not be not be directly examined still persist, but with no more basis than the early explanation of thunder.

Take umbrage if you so choose, but anger is not a salient point nor a counter-argument.


The cultures that developed those myths of a zeus and other etiological mysteries didn't use their beliefs as a reference to truth, in fact they didn't even question them. The birthplace of reason was remarkable without any questioning of the gods that everyone worshipped, the myths were simply ways of understanding, not solving. I would wager someone could apply this same method to their own god in this era.


--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth


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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: fireworks_god]
    #4248275 -

Explain for us how you are ever capable of seeing "objectively".

You're picking nits.

At the bottom of it all, nothing outside your head can be known with absolute objectivity. Some persuasive philosophical arguments say that you can't even objectively know what's in your head either.

Be that as it may, there are reasonable conclusions that can be drawn from our experience of the world and my posts represent mine. That absolute objectivity is impossible doesn't invalidate them.

NOW we're getting off topic, but it's my thread, so there!  :grin:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248283 -

but what I failed to se is how is your analise of human brain a good argument for it

I'm arguing that the entire net sum of a human personality is contained in the physical brain, not in the metaphysical soul.

Please read the entire thread, then get back to me. [sigh]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248297 -

The soul has nothing to do with thinking, personality, emotion, or rationality. Thus your attempt here is irrelevant. That's what OWS is talking about.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248306 -

Diploid said:
Where did you get that conclusion from?

OK, let me take through how I get that conclusion with some questions:

Do you think the interpretation of metaphor occurs in the brain or in the soul?


We have a huge communication gap going on here in fundamental understanding. if you can be patient and if I can, we may close the gap a bit.

To start, that question tells me you think the souls mind functions like the brain. If I could explain to you in a way you would understand how the soul mind functions then you would understand why your question makes no sense to me. It can't be answered as in one or the other.

It reads to me like asking you, does your car run on gas fuel or does your rocket run on rocket fuel? They are two different vehicles with two different modes of functioning but they can both take you places in their own way.

I am working to understand where you are coming from so I can walk you into another understanding. I can't do it from where I am at. I can't take you to see the Great Wall if I am standing in China and you are in Dallas Texas. I have to either give you directions on how to get to China first or come to dallas and take you there myself.

Your first question can not be answered as in one or the other. Thats how huge this fundamental understanding and communication gap is right now. Any suggestions for closing it?

I can say this now. The soul mind becomes very attached to the body over time and starts beleiving it is it. Its only when you start detaching your sense of self from your body and the physical identifications that you begin to see and experience the difference.

Okay, I went back to your question. The brain is just a bunch of tissue, chemical reactions and electrical pulses. Within that you are looking for the source of conscious interpretation. Diploid, you are confusing the fuck out of me.:lol: The conscious mind is not the brain and I can't talk as if it is and not be in fantasy land.

From a neuro science view, you will not know how consciousness works, you will only know how the brain works.

try some other questions and will see if we can crack through a barrier here.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: moog]
    #4248325 -

The soul has nothing to do with thinking, personality, emotion, or rationality.

Yet another definition. I know many mystics who would disagree with you. But whatever; 100 people each with a different definition of Soul doesn't change any of their minds that they are the ones who are correct and everyone else's definition is wrong. This dogma sounds a lot like Catholics, and Muslims, and Jews, and.... They all insist their version is the correct version.

So, tell me, if the soul has nothing to do with the things you outlined above, what does it have to do with and what's its function?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248327 -

Diploid said:
but what I failed to se is how is your analise of human brain a good argument for it

I'm arguing that the entire net sum of a human personality is contained in the physical brain, not in the metaphysical soul.

Please read the entire thread, then get back to me. [sigh]


yes, but when it comes to religions and beliefs which accept the concept of soul, reincarnation and all that stuff, personality and memory are passing things and do not make a soul.
when you reincarnate you don't remember anything and you reincarnated into a romantic painter after being a passionate butcher in your last life. And besides, our personality changes in life, our memories fade, yet we are still who we are because we share the same flow of consciousness with all the little subpersons (that we were in different parts of our lives)

Now you are loving and cool about things, the next second you are impatient, nervous, and prefer oranges instead of apples, but it is still you who experiences this change.

Untill science defines consciousness, you can not even begin to try and prove non-existence of a soul (immaterial consciousness)

So far, science can only explain everything that your consciousness experiences (the contents of life) but not the consciousness itself


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (06/02/05 02:05 PM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248334 -

Quote:
Swami said:
The existence of a soul was posited at around the same time as many other mystical beliefs - ALL of those that could be directly examined turned out to be WRONG, unless one still believes that thunder is God's anger and not colliding super-heated air molecules. This is ignorance.

Let me repeat as this is important: ALL EARLY BELIEFS and EXPLANATIONS concerning the nature of the world that could be empirically challenged WERE IN ERROR; yet some hold the ancients in high-regard as if they were superior beings.

The beliefs that could not be not be directly examined still persist, but with no more basis than the early explanation of thunder.

Take umbrage if you so choose, but anger is not a salient point nor a counter-argu


regardless of when it was originally posited, there have been many different definitions of soul that have been used since. until it is agreed what exactly the soul is i don't see how it can be decided whether or not it exists, which is why i hate the word soul. i certainly don't believe in a soul that can think or hear apart from the brain but i think the word soul could be used to describe conciousness.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248336 -

to be....

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248344 -

Diploid said:
The soul has nothing to do with thinking, personality, emotion, or rationality.

Yet another definition. I know many mystics who would disagree with you. But whatever; 100 people each with a different definition of Soul doesn't change any of their minds that they are the ones who are correct and everyone else's definition is wrong. This dogma sounds a lot like Catholics, and Muslims, and Jews, and.... They all insist their version is the correct version.

So, tell me, if the soul has nothing to do with the things you outlined above, what does it have to do with and what's its function?


instead of waiting for a definition, why don't you get into the concept of soul and try to put some order into it, make a logical concept and THEN question it?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248348 -

I can't say what it is. I can only say what it isn't. Since those things I listed are functions of the brain, they *probably aren't* functions of a soul. I'm not using some mystic definition here. I can only use reduction to cross off what the soul is not.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4248367 -

Any suggestions for closing it?

Yeah, I'll elaborate and rephrase.

If you read "The walls have ears", you understand a meaning that a literal reading of the words does not convey; obviously, walls do not have ears. This is metaphor.

Where do you think this grasping of metaphorical meaning from a set of literal words occurs?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248375 -

"I'm arguing that the entire net sum of a human personality is contained in the physical brain, not in the metaphysical soul."

explain how your proof (that damage to part of the brain can impair the ability to understand metaphorically) supports that arguement at all?

to use the same logic, i could state that damaging one's brain to inable literal thought would cause one to only understand on a metaphorical level, hence proving that the soul is the universe and reality is but one of an infinant number of possiblities.

not convinced? nor am i.


--------------------


what i'm listening to: http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/ajnachakra/

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248379 -

instead of waiting for a definition, why don't you get into the concept of soul and try to put some order into it, make a logical concept

I did. Then four people each told me my definition was wrong and gave me four new, different definitions. What criteria do I use to chose?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248399 -

Diploid said:
instead of waiting for a definition, why don't you get into the concept of soul and try to put some order into it, make a logical concept

I did. Then four people each told me my definition was wrong and gave me four new, different definitions. What criteria do I use to chose?


well obviously you haven't considered everything when you were making this concept.

For example, you connect soul to personality, yet it is questionable if there is such a thing as "personality" in the first place (we change all the time)

and even if it were, you should have considered that some soul-related beliefs see personality as passing as the body is (which fits perfectly in your agrument that body makes the personality)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: moog]
    #4248404 -

I can't say what it is. I can only say what it isn't.

What criteria do you use to decide what is and what is not part of the soul?

Since those things I listed are functions of the brain, they *probably aren't* functions of a soul.

Same conclusion. When I die, I will lose the ability to discern metaphors because that ability is a function of the brain. The afterlife sounds really boring. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248414 -

For example, you connect soul to personality, yet it is questionable if there is such a thing as "personality" in the first place (we change all the time)

Where do your thoughts originate? Your brain or elsewhere?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248421 -

Diploid said:
Any suggestions for closing it?

Yeah, I'll elaborate and rephrase.

If you read "The walls have ears", you understand a meaning that a literal reading of the words does not convey; obviously, walls do not have ears. This is metaphor.

Where do you think this grasping of metaphorical meaning from a set of literal words occurs?


I would need the experience of having ears and hearing first in my memory. I would have to draw from my memory what it is that ears do. I would then have to apply that function to a wall to understand the metaphor.

We know what part of the brain deals with memory. What does neuro science know about how it stores and retrieves memories?

When I envision a place I have been too in the past, with what source of light and eye am I seeing it with? Do I have a light bulb or eye ball in the memory section of the brain for this to take place diploid? And how do the tissues and chemicals and electrical pulses create that image of a past view? Are there paint brushes and canvas's in the memory section of my brain as well.

How does all of that fit in there?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248426 -

I did. Then four people each told me my definition was wrong and gave me four new, different definitions. What criteria do I use to chose?


This goes DIRECTLY to the heart of my thread: "Undefined objects do not exist".

You cannot challenge an ephemeral, shifting something with no characteristics, no locality and some unknown function.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248428 -

Diploid said:
For example, you connect soul to personality, yet it is questionable if there is such a thing as "personality" in the first place (we change all the time)

Where do your thoughts originate? Your brain or elsewhere?


Thoughts are not a defining part of spirit in every one of these beliefs (such as Buddhism)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4248446 -

I would need the experience of having ears and hearing first in my memory. I would have to draw from my memory what it is that ears do. I would then have to apply that function to a wall to understand the metaphor.

You see why we can't communicate? I asked a simple question:

Where do you think this grasping of metaphorical meaning from a set of literal words occurs?

that should have been answered starting with the words: "I think the interpretation of metaphor occurs in..." and instead I get everything including the kitchen sink, but no answer to my question.

[sighs]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248447 -

"Where do your thoughts originate? Your brain or elsewhere? "

thoughts are a product of the brain's interaction with it's environment.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248452 -

Thoughts are not a defining part of spirit in every one of these beliefs (such as Buddhism)

What Swami said.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Deviate]
    #4248463 -

"You see why we can't communicate? I asked a simple question:

Where do you think this grasping of metaphorical meaning from a set of literal words occurs?"

i have answered this question yet you fail to address any of the points put forth.


--------------------


what i'm listening to: http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/ajnachakra/

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248472 -

Diploid said:
Thoughts are not a defining part of spirit in every one of these beliefs (such as Buddhism)

What Swami said.


You are trying to chalenge every concept of spirit, I'm just trying to point out your arguments do not har EVERY one of those concepts


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248475 -

If you want to disprove the existence of a soul, my advice to you would be to first start with the least common denominator among ALL the different definitions, which is probably: awareness independent of the brain. This is the only concept I can think of that seems to belong to all the different belief systems regarding a soul.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4248485 -

I was not referring to "beliefs," I was referring to Experience, 'non-ordinary' states of consciousness that I know you are well-enough aware of both intellectually and experientially (as a user of psychedelics, and a one-time 'seeker' which suggests such experience and a lifestyle [howsoever failed] which sought to realize such states).

The Experience of 'The Witness,' that Experience of a 'Transcendental Ego' that Dick Alpert AKA Ram Dass wrote of in BE HERE NOW to name a fairly recent rendering of The classic Experience of Soul, is what I was referring to. One may refuse to acknowledge the spiritual implications of this class of Experience, but then, that goes hand-in-hand with a disavowal of spirituality, period.

I'll repeat myself: I AM a Soul - I exist. What is more, I experience myself in modes that can be isolated yet never disconnected while yet alive: Physical, Psychical and Spiritual. I will not waste time to elaborate, but you may notice that though I may utilize models to describe experience, I am not particularly dogmatic about any. I am however, very Cartesian when I insist that I actually DO exist, that I exist AS a living Soul which I define primarily as Consciousness, secondarily as embodiedness - the "inner man" experienced in said states of Consciousness being ultimately more defining of my identity than the obvious "natural man." I lay no claim to 'having' an undetectable 'essence' - I lay claim to 'being' a living Soul. You may not like the language which belongs to ancient spiritual traditions, but those traditions consider you to be a living Soul as well, whether you like it or not, or don't care.

My "anger" is at your materialistic prejudice aimed at those of us who prefer to hold spiritual identities of one kind or another. This does not differ from any other type of religious intolerance, and we are on a spirituality and philosophy forum, if that isn't poignant. Even a poorly articulated, contradictory formulation of spiritual ideas is worthy of respect, since the whole of spiritual experience is rife with paradox and unresolved conjunctions of opposing principles. Fledgling spiritual seekers need to be encouraged, not discouraged. Miami is a mecca for materialists and their concommitant selfishness and crime. You're a betting man, and you can bet I'm angry living amongst multitudes of strictly Satyric and Centauric humans, with never a soul in sight who cultivates the sprouting of a winged heart, as unnatural or supernatural as that sounds. You see, I have not given up the 'flight of the alone to the Alone.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Deviate]
    #4248504 -

thoughts are a product of the brain's interaction with it's environment.

Another non-answer to my question. I didn't ask what thoughts are the product of, I asked where do they originate.

[sighs again]

I'm hungry. I'm going out for some Soul Food. Talk more later.  :sun:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248532 -

Diploid said:
I would need the experience of having ears and hearing first in my memory. I would have to draw from my memory what it is that ears do. I would then have to apply that function to a wall to understand the metaphor.

You see why we can't communicate? I asked a simple question:

Where do you think this grasping of metaphorical meaning from a set of literal words occurs?

that should have been answered starting with the words: "I think the interpretation of metaphor occurs in..." and instead I get everything including the kitchen sink, but no answer to my question.

[sighs]


It doesn't occur "in " something. It runs through a multi dimensional processor that goes beyond brain tissues and chemical reactions.

I told you that for me to interpret it, I first have to have experienced hearing with ears and recall the function of an ear to then apply it to a wall. I have to time travel through memory channels into past experience amongst other things to do that as I explained. And you ask me "in" where the metaphorical interpretation happens?

We are back to your circular logic.

If the location of an answer is not "in" something then a question that starts with, What is it found "in", does not make sense nor is it applicable or useful for obtaining the answer.

Thats why neuro scientists don't have the answer yet. The won't find it "in" the brain.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (06/02/05 03:07 PM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248559 -

Diploid, at least I am attempting to answer your questions. You made no attempt to answer these. If you do, you make breakthrough, and see as others do what can not be put within a container.

When I envision a place I have been too in the past, with what source of light and eye am I seeing it with? Do I have a light bulb or eye ball in the memory section of the brain for this to take place diploid? And how do the tissues and chemicals and electrical pulses create that image of a past view? Are there paint brushes and canvas's in the memory section of my brain as well.

How does all of that fit in there?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248570 -

When faced with a concept that cannot possibly be "nailed down" to hard facts and hard scientific evidence, I decide to investigate possibilities. After I have investigated all the possibilities I can dream up or seek out, I choose the one that I call my "best guess."

My best guess is that our bodies (brains included) are complex vehicles for our souls. The function of the vehicle certainly affects the driver's ability to navigate their life. When we leave our "vehicles," they cease driving.

As to the location of the soul...I am intrigued by what I am learning about mitochondria. It is still far too early in my studies to even attempt a "best guess," but I like the possibilities!

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4248612 -

The Experience of 'The Witness,' that Experience of a 'Transcendental Ego' that Dick Alpert AKA Ram Dass wrote of in BE HERE NOW to name a fairly recent rendering of The classic Experience of Soul, is what I was referring to.

Alpert's Witness was somehow unable to notice when he had a stroke, that he was immobile on the floor for 6 hours.

The Witness can be as easily explained by brain function as it can be by some mystical, separate indefinable "something".

Fledgling spiritual seekers need to be encouraged, not discouraged.
R-I-G-H-T! So should I encourage telekinesis, 2012, crop circles, UFOs, physical immortality, etc. ?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4248836 -

Alpert's stroke, or any psychophysical malady should theoretically have no influence on the Consciousness which he called The Witness. It is impassive ["indifferent" : Webster]. It is THE Consciousness that one's identity must become, and The Witness 'witnesses' the whole drama (i.e., of the stroke) "...with Unbearable Compassion," because Compassion is the identity of The Witness. It remains, if it is Eternal. We and our psychophysical drama perish. Why then 'blame' The Witness, or even say that it was "unable to notice?" Do you not 'get' this description of the Transcendental Ego or do you merely insist that it is a brain-created state?

Telekinesis (a purportedly PSI Function), 2012, crop circles, UFO's, physical immortality should ALL be discouraged. I do not consider any of them to fall into the category of 'spiritual.' Telekinesis is parapsychological, physical immortality is mythological; 2012 is supposed to be astrological, crop circles can be man-made, but like the helicopter-ploy in 'Close Encounters,' perhaps the man-made are cover-ups for the UFO's - however, neither real or imagined, constitute 'spiritual.' Spiritus, Pneuma, Ruach, - Latin, Greek and Hebrew words which are archaic and unfortunately of the same meaning as 'wind,' are best left behind and replaced with the word Consciousness (which can be the umbrella-term under which can range Unconsciousness, Subconsciousness, Consciousness and Superconsciousness, and which can encompass human experiences from the instinctual to the insightful - root chakra to crown chakra - whatever.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4248842 -

swami, that would be because the witness only functions through the brain. of course you can say conciousness is only created by the brain but i have 2 responses. first of all the brain is not something seperate that exists on it's own, it's really the brains interaction with its evironment (the whole universe) that creates conciousness so it can be said that the universe itself is conciouss (if only through brains) and secondly, there is a lot of evidence that conciousness is a property of matter/energy and not something that magically appears when matter is arranged in a certain way. your arguments are indicative of someone who doesn't understand the spiritual theories being presented rather than an actual rebuttle. we already know about the examples you use and they pose no contradiction to what we believe. in fact we would expect things to be that way.

Edited by Deviate (06/02/05 03:45 PM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4248971 -

Telekinesis (a purportedly PSI Function), 2012, crop circles, UFO's, physical immortality should ALL be discouraged. I do not consider any of them to fall into the category of 'spiritual.'

This is exactly the reply I expected.

So should I only encourage that which you deem encourageable and discourage that which you deem discourageable?

Markos, I put the flame to every idea to see what goes up in smoke and that which remains. I challenge everything. Nothing is off-limits to scrutiny in my world.

Sorry you took offense to my earlier post. I think you took it in a way I did not intend.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4249012 -


Markos, I put the flame to every idea to see what goes up in smoke and that which remains. I challenge everything. Nothing is off-limits to scrutiny in my world.
____________________________________________________________________

That's a bold statement. Is this an aspiration or a totality? Being human and all I mean. :grin:

Anyway I admire your statement. I can respect it. :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4249023 -

my god, for a forum visited by "enlightened" people, I've never seen a bigger congregation of people who are more sure about their beliefs

UFO's should be discouraged, regardless of wheather they are real or not

This redefines the truth itself. Truth is then, that which we decide to be and all evidence that might be founrd one days should be selected acoarding to the decided truth.

You shroomers just can't for a second step outside of your beliefs and believe in the oposite, not for a second. All of you, UFO-ers, antiUFO-ers, whatever.

So if you decide that UFO's exist, any evidence that might suggest it is an illusion is not valid and should be canceled, or vice versa, If you believe in UFO's as being illusions, any future evidence of the contrary is to be dismissed. What kind of logic is that?

I'm really tired of this place


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Edited by OldWoodSpecter (06/02/05 04:13 PM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #4249036 -

Hence my new nick-name: "The Burning Man".  :tongue2:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4249045 -

No wait, I had that name 30 years ago when I got my first (and last!) case of gonorrhea.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4249172 -

TMI!!

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4249246 -

:lol: :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4249441 -

I agree that the brain is mostly responsible for the outward appearance of "personality"...however this fact does not mean a "soul" cannot exist. It could be that the "soul" has no effect whatsoever on the outward appearance of personality.

Trying to prove a negative is always, always, tricky :wink:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: trendal]
    #4249707 -

Not a response?? Even after all that BS. Thanks for including me y'all. Soul... Silly. Buddy, eat 10.5g of potent fruit. That'll disconnect ya from your conditioning. Don't panic. Let it empty out onto the table. Once you see yourself for the first time... There you are. Soul, unbiased, disconnected from who you thought you were. A duality really. "As above so below"

Psyilly

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4249723 -

Buddy, eat 10.5g of potent fruit.

Yeah...I do all my neuroscience while tripping  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: trendal]
    #4249759 -

neuroscience?? I thought we were talking altered states, which have always been accessed with mushrooms. You think they just popped up in the sixties??

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4249777 -

I don't expect you to encourage anything that you're not behind yourself. Nothing is outside of scrutiny in my world either, but there are some people - and YOU know which posts - that it would be beneficial to cease and desist from a bloodbath.

Apology heartily accepted.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4249795 -

apology? bloodbath? I don't follow. If someone wants to experience their own soul there is a way. Didn't say it would be fun or pretty. Especially for this guy, especially. Judgment?? I am behind that dose. I would like to meet up and prove it to you. I speak from experience. Your experience??

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4249836 -

Unidentified Flying Objects belong to the empirical world, not the spiritual world, unless you take Jung's idea that they are projections of archetypal images, i.e., mandalas, in which case UFO's would belong to the psychical world.

I don't know how you processed my response to Swami, but the only spiritual aspect of UFO's that I find pertinent is their veracity, the Truth of their psychophysical existence in our space-time locus, not mere psychical projections. In this sense, Truth = Reality, but UFO's do not represent Ultimate Truth, so like everything else in the empirical world, they are not equivalent to Ultimate Reality, which is a philosophical way of saying 'GOD.'

I have affirmed no belief, just categories of existence: physical, psychical, spiritual.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4249851 -

no responses. ever.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4249900 -

I have done some very committed tripping, I don't know if I saw a soul. I saw many different things including a watcher that seems to be a part of me. Was it my soul? The psychedelic realm was too vast for me to get a clear message. I witnessed the chaos of everything and the order that came from that. To this day understanding some of my trips is like deciphering dreams. In fact I feel like I am plunged into my subconscious mind and I am there with some small part of my waking consciousness. That's my subjective experience of it. :mushroom2: I have theorys but that's all.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #4249980 -

You don't really see the soul. If you stayed in the vast realm and couldn't 'cross the bridge', practice meditation. Let go of the ideas that pop up curiously like mushrooms. In the absence of effort is when you make the shift. It happens suddenly, but don't panic. Keep your mind clear and positive. The vastness and the watcher become One. You experience a duality of your being much like schizophrenia. If you hold on to this world's false truth, disaster. If you accept GOD... Ultimate Truth. Love. Light. Life... You will join your subconscious as a conscious dialog with your Self. Or God if you prefer. God or Mortal??

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4250010 -

It helps to learn that Psychosis is accepting a different reality than the one that is taught to us. One that is really completely fake. The reality in your head, your subconscious, the running tape, it doesn't miss a beat, who would you rather believe? The Serpent in the Garden told the Truth. Christ. Where are the weapons of mass distruction?? Who is lying?? Are you a liar?? God is not who anyone thinks he is. The majority is in a State of Psychosis. You are God, believe it. Be Truth.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4250017 -

diploid loves controversy


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4250018 -

i better just say that this is all my opinion for safe measure. don't anyone try this at home unless they are up on their shit, bitch.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4250061 -

psyillyazul said:
i better just say that this is all my opinion for safe measure.  don't anyone try this at home unless they are up on their shit, bitch.


Then your statement is subjective; all of a sudden playing it safe. What you describe as soul, I do not. I have been in a pure love bliss state for 6 hours. I don't need to know more for me subjectively because it meets my test for my truth. I also believe that this is the pure state of chaos. Yet once again my subjective interpetation of events. We may be talking about the same thing. You call it soul and I call it Tao. Still these are just words and we can't be sure what each other means when we say words to each other. You interpet it from your subjective view and I mine.  :mushroom2: :heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #4250084 -

safety for the nonobjective. those ideas are up for anyone. they are my objective reality that I am sharing with you. the safety is for Markos. He was pissed cause I suggested that. He expected an apology. I will meet you, some day, and we will make the subjective ONE. There is really only ONE. Really. Tao is perfect. If everyone could start from that...

Psyilly

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4250111 -

Maybe we will meet one day. I will try to find the common ground with you. :mushroom2: :heart: Then we can have another conversation.  :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: psyillyazul]
    #4250491 -

psylly,

It's about time someone told you that Markos's reply was to swami not you. If you go back and "read their discussion within this thread, you will see that as well as Markos, reply being made to swami" it just went up after yours.

Relaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaax


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4251097 -

Good post. I've spent some time studying brain biology in my courses, and everything you said is true.

This also echoes of Bertrand Russel's "Why I am Not a Christian" papers.

Everything in you can be changed by altering your brain, so how can "you" survive the decomposition of your brain?


--------------------
Thinking of opening and reusing or trying to save that contaminated jar? READ THIS FIRST and then decide if you want to or not.

Are you a visual learner? Is it easier to SEE than READ how to grow? Order this video then.

My MUST read information on Salvia. I have been a student of Her since 2001.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4251419 -

Quote:
if a person is more than a brain, can they interpret a set of words literally and metaphorically, but if their AG is damage, they lose ONLY the metaphor and all the words can still be literally processed.


I dont see how this proves the non-existence of the soul.

Take a computer where the Hardware represents the body and the software represents the soul. If you damage the hardware the software will not work correctly.


--------------------
Always Smi2le

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: myndreach]
    #4251427 -

And you tag yourself a philosopher? Never read the Vedas, Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita, Bible, Prajnaparamita, Tao Te Ching, Meister Eckhardt, Ramana Maharishi, Jacob Boehme, John of the Cross, Dionysus the Areopagite, Teresa of Avila, Shankara, Patanjali, Lao Tzu, Pir Vilayat, Neem Karolie Baba, Swami Satchidananda, Swami Muktananda, Ken Wilber, Aldous Huxley, Lama Anagarika Govinda, Alexandra David-Neel, Ram Dass, Huston Smith, Jacob Needleman....have you? Clearly, you haven't left your own 'accounts with Reality' open for The Experience which would still the question of the ontological priority of pure consciousness.

I'll end with this and 'brain-produced' consciousness: orient a bar of iron North-South, and bang it good a few times with a steel hammer. The magnetism that the bar now manifests is not 'produced' by the iron.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: GazzBut]
    #4251430 -

I dont see how this proves the non-existence of the soul.

Why does everyone keep assuming that I'm claiming proof? Scientists never claim proof, only evidence to support a given conclusion.

Take a computer where the Hardware represents the body and the software represents the soul. If you damage the hardware the software will not work correctly.

Your analogy is similar to several before you (read the thread). Like all the others it is flawed and doesn't represent what is happening in the case of a person with damage to the Angular Gyrus.

In the World/Soul paradigm the person with the damaged AG comprehends "the walls have ears" perfectly. All four words reached the conscious awareness of the person but the person is puzzled and states that it doesn't makes sense for walls to have ears since ears are properties of animals and walls are not animals.

In other words, the literal words all arrived perfectly intact, but the intellectual jump from literal words that mean nonsense to the metaphorical meaning that makes sense is the only thing lost when the Angular Gyrus in the brain is damaged.

This tells me that interpretation of metaphorical meaning from literal words occurs in the brain because the entire net sum of the words, all four of them, arrive intact or the person would be unable to wonder what ears have to do with walls. What are the implications of this for the hypothetical soul when the brain dies (100% brain damage) if the soul is so dependent on a brain function to make sense of something as simple as metaphor.

Can a ghost without a brain get anything out of a comedy club? :tongue:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Edited by Diploid (06/03/05 06:40 AM)

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4251441 -

Can a ghost without a brain to get anything out of a comedy club?


Yes, and I have evidence. Lots of it.


Where will I be sending my stacks-upon-stacks of Casper the Friendly Ghost comic books to, for research purposes?

Might I add a few Archie episodes as well? I could use the extra closet space..






--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #4257533 -

relaxed. I'm Found. How bout Pure consciousness = Soul. However, consciousness can be conditioned to have not a soul, apparently. That's interesting. I wonder how Bush and his buddies get away with all this shit. Soul-less people. I get it now. Blind leading the blind. I wouldn't admit that. Open your eyes or have them forced open, those are the only two choices. The latter may prove even more disorienting than the worst 'bad trip'. You have been severed from yourself. A 'bad trip' is a trip back, people are scared! They have no idea who they are, or the extent of their being. Our Selves have become the UFOs and aliens that we fear.

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