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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248344 - 06/02/05 02:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
The soul has nothing to do with thinking, personality, emotion, or rationality.

Yet another definition. I know many mystics who would disagree with you. But whatever; 100 people each with a different definition of Soul doesn't change any of their minds that they are the ones who are correct and everyone else's definition is wrong. This dogma sounds a lot like Catholics, and Muslims, and Jews, and.... They all insist their version is the correct version.

So, tell me, if the soul has nothing to do with the things you outlined above, what does it have to do with and what's its function?




instead of waiting for a definition, why don't you get into the concept of soul and try to put some order into it, make a logical concept and THEN question it?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Invisiblemoog
Stranger

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248348 - 06/02/05 02:07 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I can't say what it is. I can only say what it isn't. Since those things I listed are functions of the brain, they *probably aren't* functions of a soul. I'm not using some mystic definition here. I can only use reduction to cross off what the soul is not.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4248367 - 06/02/05 02:11 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Any suggestions for closing it?

Yeah, I'll elaborate and rephrase.

If you read "The walls have ears", you understand a meaning that a literal reading of the words does not convey; obviously, walls do not have ears. This is metaphor.

Where do you think this grasping of metaphorical meaning from a set of literal words occurs?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlineajna
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Registered: 01/02/05
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Loc: Qld, AUS
Last seen: 15 years, 9 days
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248375 - 06/02/05 02:12 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"I'm arguing that the entire net sum of a human personality is contained in the physical brain, not in the metaphysical soul."

explain how your proof (that damage to part of the brain can impair the ability to understand metaphorically) supports that arguement at all?

to use the same logic, i could state that damaging one's brain to inable literal thought would cause one to only understand on a metaphorical level, hence proving that the soul is the universe and reality is but one of an infinant number of possiblities.

not convinced? nor am i.


--------------------


what i'm listening to: http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/ajnachakra/

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248379 - 06/02/05 02:13 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

instead of waiting for a definition, why don't you get into the concept of soul and try to put some order into it, make a logical concept

I did. Then four people each told me my definition was wrong and gave me four new, different definitions. What criteria do I use to chose?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248399 - 06/02/05 02:16 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
instead of waiting for a definition, why don't you get into the concept of soul and try to put some order into it, make a logical concept

I did. Then four people each told me my definition was wrong and gave me four new, different definitions. What criteria do I use to chose?




well obviously you haven't considered everything when you were making this concept.

For example, you connect soul to personality, yet it is questionable if there is such a thing as "personality" in the first place (we change all the time)

and even if it were, you should have considered that some soul-related beliefs see personality as passing as the body is (which fits perfectly in your agrument that body makes the personality)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: moog]
    #4248404 - 06/02/05 02:17 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I can't say what it is. I can only say what it isn't.

What criteria do you use to decide what is and what is not part of the soul?

Since those things I listed are functions of the brain, they *probably aren't* functions of a soul.

Same conclusion. When I die, I will lose the ability to discern metaphors because that ability is a function of the brain. The afterlife sounds really boring. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248414 - 06/02/05 02:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

For example, you connect soul to personality, yet it is questionable if there is such a thing as "personality" in the first place (we change all the time)

Where do your thoughts originate? Your brain or elsewhere?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248421 - 06/02/05 02:19 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Any suggestions for closing it?

Yeah, I'll elaborate and rephrase.

If you read "The walls have ears", you understand a meaning that a literal reading of the words does not convey; obviously, walls do not have ears. This is metaphor.

Where do you think this grasping of metaphorical meaning from a set of literal words occurs?




I would need the experience of having ears and hearing first in my memory. I would have to draw from my memory what it is that ears do. I would then have to apply that function to a wall to understand the metaphor.

We know what part of the brain deals with memory. What does neuro science know about how it stores and retrieves memories?

When I envision a place I have been too in the past, with what source of light and eye am I seeing it with? Do I have a light bulb or eye ball in the memory section of the brain for this to take place diploid? And how do the tissues and chemicals and electrical pulses create that image of a past view? Are there paint brushes and canvas's in the memory section of my brain as well.

How does all of that fit in there?


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248426 - 06/02/05 02:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I did. Then four people each told me my definition was wrong and gave me four new, different definitions. What criteria do I use to chose?


This goes DIRECTLY to the heart of my thread: "Undefined objects do not exist".

You cannot challenge an ephemeral, shifting something with no characteristics, no locality and some unknown function.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248428 - 06/02/05 02:20 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
For example, you connect soul to personality, yet it is questionable if there is such a thing as "personality" in the first place (we change all the time)

Where do your thoughts originate? Your brain or elsewhere?




Thoughts are not a defining part of spirit in every one of these beliefs (such as Buddhism)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4248446 - 06/02/05 02:23 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I would need the experience of having ears and hearing first in my memory. I would have to draw from my memory what it is that ears do. I would then have to apply that function to a wall to understand the metaphor.

You see why we can't communicate? I asked a simple question:

Where do you think this grasping of metaphorical meaning from a set of literal words occurs?

that should have been answered starting with the words: "I think the interpretation of metaphor occurs in..." and instead I get everything including the kitchen sink, but no answer to my question.

[sighs]


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 8 months
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248447 - 06/02/05 02:23 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"Where do your thoughts originate? Your brain or elsewhere? "

thoughts are a product of the brain's interaction with it's environment.

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4248452 - 06/02/05 02:24 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Thoughts are not a defining part of spirit in every one of these beliefs (such as Buddhism)

What Swami said.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineajna
Hunter
Male

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 410
Loc: Qld, AUS
Last seen: 15 years, 9 days
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Deviate]
    #4248463 - 06/02/05 02:26 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

"You see why we can't communicate? I asked a simple question:

Where do you think this grasping of metaphorical meaning from a set of literal words occurs?"

i have answered this question yet you fail to address any of the points put forth.


--------------------


what i'm listening to: http://www.audioscrobbler.com/user/ajnachakra/

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
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Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248472 - 06/02/05 02:27 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Thoughts are not a defining part of spirit in every one of these beliefs (such as Buddhism)

What Swami said.




You are trying to chalenge every concept of spirit, I'm just trying to point out your arguments do not har EVERY one of those concepts


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblemoog
Stranger

Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248475 - 06/02/05 02:28 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

If you want to disprove the existence of a soul, my advice to you would be to first start with the least common denominator among ALL the different definitions, which is probably: awareness independent of the brain. This is the only concept I can think of that seems to belong to all the different belief systems regarding a soul.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Swami]
    #4248485 - 06/02/05 02:30 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

I was not referring to "beliefs," I was referring to Experience, 'non-ordinary' states of consciousness that I know you are well-enough aware of both intellectually and experientially (as a user of psychedelics, and a one-time 'seeker' which suggests such experience and a lifestyle [howsoever failed] which sought to realize such states).

The Experience of 'The Witness,' that Experience of a 'Transcendental Ego' that Dick Alpert AKA Ram Dass wrote of in BE HERE NOW to name a fairly recent rendering of The classic Experience of Soul, is what I was referring to. One may refuse to acknowledge the spiritual implications of this class of Experience, but then, that goes hand-in-hand with a disavowal of spirituality, period.

I'll repeat myself: I AM a Soul - I exist. What is more, I experience myself in modes that can be isolated yet never disconnected while yet alive: Physical, Psychical and Spiritual. I will not waste time to elaborate, but you may notice that though I may utilize models to describe experience, I am not particularly dogmatic about any. I am however, very Cartesian when I insist that I actually DO exist, that I exist AS a living Soul which I define primarily as Consciousness, secondarily as embodiedness - the "inner man" experienced in said states of Consciousness being ultimately more defining of my identity than the obvious "natural man." I lay no claim to 'having' an undetectable 'essence' - I lay claim to 'being' a living Soul. You may not like the language which belongs to ancient spiritual traditions, but those traditions consider you to be a living Soul as well, whether you like it or not, or don't care.

My "anger" is at your materialistic prejudice aimed at those of us who prefer to hold spiritual identities of one kind or another. This does not differ from any other type of religious intolerance, and we are on a spirituality and philosophy forum, if that isn't poignant. Even a poorly articulated, contradictory formulation of spiritual ideas is worthy of respect, since the whole of spiritual experience is rife with paradox and unresolved conjunctions of opposing principles. Fledgling spiritual seekers need to be encouraged, not discouraged. Miami is a mecca for materialists and their concommitant selfishness and crime. You're a betting man, and you can bet I'm angry living amongst multitudes of strictly Satyric and Centauric humans, with never a soul in sight who cultivates the sprouting of a winged heart, as unnatural or supernatural as that sounds. You see, I have not given up the 'flight of the alone to the Alone.'


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Deviate]
    #4248504 - 06/02/05 02:33 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

thoughts are a product of the brain's interaction with it's environment.

Another non-answer to my question. I didn't ask what thoughts are the product of, I asked where do they originate.

[sighs again]

I'm hungry. I'm going out for some Soul Food. Talk more later.  :sun:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Neurological Science And Evidence Of The Non-Existence Of A Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #4248532 - 06/02/05 02:41 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I would need the experience of having ears and hearing first in my memory. I would have to draw from my memory what it is that ears do. I would then have to apply that function to a wall to understand the metaphor.

You see why we can't communicate? I asked a simple question:

Where do you think this grasping of metaphorical meaning from a set of literal words occurs?

that should have been answered starting with the words: "I think the interpretation of metaphor occurs in..." and instead I get everything including the kitchen sink, but no answer to my question.

[sighs]




It doesn't occur "in " something. It runs through a multi dimensional processor that goes beyond brain tissues and chemical reactions.

I told you that for me to interpret it, I first have to have experienced hearing with ears and recall the function of an ear to then apply it to a wall. I have to time travel through memory channels into past experience amongst other things to do that as I explained. And you ask me "in" where the metaphorical interpretation happens?

We are back to your circular logic.

If the location of an answer is not "in" something then a question that starts with, What is it found "in", does not make sense nor is it applicable or useful for obtaining the answer.

Thats why neuro scientists don't have the answer yet. The won't find it "in" the brain.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

Edited by gettinjiggywithit (06/02/05 03:07 PM)

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