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Offlinedr0mni Happy Birthday!
My Own Messiah
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Registered: 08/21/04
Posts: 2,921
Loc: USF Tampa, Fl
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Soul [Re: slaphappy]
    #3923804 - 03/15/05 11:28 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

good post slaphappy! You know what it all about, man...

it's dangerous to put good ideas into words. Once they are written down they are no longer dynamic. But it's obvious that there is a good idea behind those words.

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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Soul [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3924403 - 03/16/05 04:45 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


please refer to the part where I proposed a process, which I then explained.




for me to accept that, you'd have to explain exactly how taoist training can chainge one's appearance. simply saying that it does isn't good enough.

the taoist training is an undefined factor in your argument. there are no such factors in my argument, which is why mine is more logical.

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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
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Re: Soul [Re: dr0mni]
    #3924405 - 03/16/05 04:49 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


again, how do we define "soul"? This question can never be answered and this thread is about to fall apart into nitpicking and irreconcilable differences in opinion...




that's my whole point. in this case, 'soul' is an undefined factor. in my proposition, there is no need for an undefined factor.

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OfflinePsilocinSam
Jester To TheHall Of TheMushroom King

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 87
Loc: Cambridge, UK
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Soul [Re: alsey]
    #3924475 - 03/16/05 05:48 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

As I said, Soul is simply a virtual entity - construct - made by the human mind to separate itself from the full nature of the reality around it and allow it to dynamically process only portions of it. It is much like a gel on a stage light, which only lets through what colour light is required, be that green, blue, or red. In the same way the Soul is as much part of the mind, and separate from it, as the gel on the light is, and acts as a filter to the outside world.

Soul is what separates consciousness from the true nature of reality (some people on here might call it an Ego).

That's my 50 cent bandage! :stoned::mushroom2:


--------------------
We ultimately live in a fractal universe, all parts reflect the infinity of the whole. So why do we maintain that time be any different?

Welcome to 4 my dimensional thoughts!

(Turkish Delight is neither Turkish, nor delightful. So where's the name from?!)

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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Soul [Re: PsilocinSam]
    #3924536 - 03/16/05 06:34 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

i still don't see why a soul is necessary. is it not enough to say that the mind itself filters reality?

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OfflineThe_Walrus
Stranger
Registered: 03/03/05
Posts: 79
Loc: Cambridge, Britain
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: Soul [Re: CJay]
    #3924699 - 03/16/05 08:32 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
Quote:

The_Walrus: the whole is greater than the sum of its parts... believe that this 'soul' if you will, is basically the difference between the sum of our constituent parts and the actual value of our 'whole'.




Before 'soul' comes consciousness - or is our soul exactly that? Consciousness. Consciousness is the emergent factor of the systems we call biology, the factor that is greater than the sum of the parts. Will consciousness persist without the sum of the parts, when the equation breaks down and the sum can no longer be reached....when entropy results in death?

Perhaps there is another layer below/above consciousness. Is that 'soul' or 'God'? Is consciousness one of the parts of the 'soul' and if so is the whole of the 'soul' greater than the sum of its parts? Or is it just hyper-consciousness?




I believe that the soul is core component of the self which will remain unchanged throughout life (or might be changed, but very rarely so), the extent of this soul depends on your level of consciousness. I believe that my dogs have 'soul', in that it is the fundamental core of their personality, yet its magnitude/complexity, if you will is determined by the level of consciousness. I'm not sure if that makes sense, I'll expand on it later if you want.


--------------------
'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein

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Offlineslaphappy
Its just me
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Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 1,188
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Re: Soul [Re: The_Walrus]
    #3924754 - 03/16/05 08:56 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Its dynamic in its fundament.

Reality is dynamic, hence my words cannot be otherwise.

I'll write something totally different tomorrow, about the same thing, or something exactly the same, about something totally different.
Quote:


Well then Fido got up off the floor an' he rolled over
An' he looked me straight in the eye
An' you know what he said?
Once upon a time
Somebody say to me
(This is a dog talkin' now)
What is your Conceptual Continuity?
Well, I told him right then
(Fido said)
It should be easy to see
The crux of the biscuit
Is the Apostrophe(')
Well, you know
The man who was talkin' to the dog
Looked at the dog an' he said: (sort of staring in desbelief)
"You can't say that!"
He said:
"IT DOESN'T, 'n YOU CAN'T!
I WON'T, 'n IT DON'T!
IT HASN'T, IT ISN'T, IT EVEN AIN'T
'N IT SHOULDN'T . . .
IT COULDN'T!"
He told me NO NO NO!
I told him YES YES YES!
I said: "I do it all the time . . .
Ain't this boogie a mess!"
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES
THE POODLE CHEWS IT
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES
THE POODLE CHEWS IT
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES
THE POODLE CHEWS IT
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES
THE POODLE CHEWS IT
(POO-DLE . . . )
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES
( . . . BITES)
THE POODLE CHEWS IT
(POO-DLE . . . )
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES
( . . . BITES)
THE POODLE CHEWS IT
(POO-DLE . . . )
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES
( . . . BITES)
THE POODLE CHEWS IT
(POO-DLE . . . )
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES
( . . . BITES)
THE POODLE CHEWS IT
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES
THE POODLE CHEWS IT
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES
THE POODLE CHEWS IT
THE POODLE BY-EE-ITES





--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,888
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Re: Soul [Re: slaphappy]
    #3924778 - 03/16/05 09:06 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

soul.. a dog, does he know he is a dog?
animals, need not think of who/what they are, they are.. (spirit?)
humans, think they think who/what they are, they are what they are.. (soul?)

again, i talk to much, ... (but it wont refrain me from posting this)
:wink:

what is now and here, here and now, nowhere, is truth. what it is, is fiction.. :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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Offlineslaphappy
Its just me
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Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 1,188
Loc: Norway, Eidsvoll, Råholt...
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Soul [Re: slaphappy]
    #3924827 - 03/16/05 09:29 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

A dog knows that he is a dog better than I know I'm a motherfucking human being y0


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Posts: 10,888
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Re: Soul [Re: slaphappy]
    #3924908 - 03/16/05 10:06 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

why cant a dog say: " I am  a dog" then, can it? :P
hehe :wink:


(OK, I see, i should newer had said it, been felling it all day, ill go shut up in my bathroom, under some water) (shower, offcourse I'm not gonna drown myself.. I wont kill myself, but if I do, its gonna be someone else's body, that does it to me, and ill defend myself to death! hahah )


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

Edited by Gomp (03/16/05 10:10 AM)

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OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
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Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
SouL -- The Spirit Carries ON..... [Re: slaphappy]
    #3925093 - 03/16/05 11:10 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

slaphappy said:
A dog knows that he is a dog better than I know I'm a motherfucking human being y0




Dogs are happy enough not to care to know that they are dogs because they can lick their nutz....!    :lol:

The only thing they wish to find, is other nuts....  That is why they smell everyone's crotch....!    :rotfl:

And a shower does sound in order....  :wink:    Spreading and sharing light can become "stinky"....  Heehee

ME....


:heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineZekebomb
sociophagus

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: anything but 'soul' [Re: alsey]
    #3925144 - 03/16/05 11:26 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

for me to accept that, you'd have to explain exactly how taoist training can chainge one's appearance.

okay, what I said was: the Frog immortal, for example. Apparently the guy looked like a frog. This is because his Taoist training allowed him to gain a measure of conscious control over his blueprint, and exert subtle changes to it over the course of years.

in a nutshell, that means the Taoist amazing magical training over the course of a hundred years or more (according to legend) lent people amazing magical abilities, and one such ability could have been a measure of conscious control over the physical appearance of their bodies. Please bear in mind I don't necessarily believe this is true. nor do I care whether or not you 'accept' it, as you'll see in a moment:

the taoist training is an undefined factor in your argument.

it's not a 'factor' in my 'argument', and indeed I don't really have an 'argument'. Just an idea. seems like you're thinking of this as some high-stakes debate or something. I said at the outset it's poorly thought-out, I'm not writing my university thesis here. While I appreciate anyone's input, you're not exactly adding anything to the idea, which is what I secretly hoped everyone would do. please guys, I'm fragile, bolster me at all costs!

there are no such factors in my argument, which is why mine is more logical.

what is your argument? that souls don't exist? that whatever I say is wrong? that legendary taoist immortal masters aren't really immortal?

* * *

Here's the important part, friends: let's pretend that when I first posted this thread, instead of the word 'soul' I had put the word 'blueprint'. Wouldn't everyone have been a lot more comfortable? well too bad suckers. The blueprint thing that I defined (or tried my damndest to) is just itself, and nothing more, but I thought it was similar in some respects to some ideas about what the Soul is, so I formed a tenuous bridge in order (ideally) to spark some exchanges. which I guess I did. congratulations, me. /eats lollipop

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OfflineZekebomb
sociophagus

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Soul [Re: alsey]
    #3925175 - 03/16/05 11:35 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

in my proposition, there is no need for an undefined factor.

you do realize it's impossible to define every term we use, of course? pointless too, because every definition wil include previously undefined words which we'll then need to define...

so we could concentrate on the key words in this idea, such as 'soul', but come on, I challenge anyone in the world to come up with a universally satisfactory definition of that word. I'll give you a cool $1000 if you can do it.

basically when I post shit like this, I either define terms at the outset or I assume that everyone will sort of be flexible enough to know what I'm talking about. I know, I know, assumptions are the dumbest things ever. Too bad, everything is an assumption, and nothing is defined.

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Offlineslaphappy
Its just me
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Posts: 1,188
Loc: Norway, Eidsvoll, Råholt...
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: SouL -- The Spirit Carries ON..... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3925441 - 03/16/05 12:52 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
Quote:

slaphappy said:
A dog knows that he is a dog better than I know I'm a motherfucking human being y0




Dogs are happy enough not to care to know that they are dogs because they can lick their nutz....!    :lol:

The only thing they wish to find, is other nuts....  That is why they smell everyone's crotch....!    :rotfl:

And a shower does sound in order....  :wink:    Spreading and sharing light can become "stinky"....  Heehee

ME....


:heartpump:




Hehehe! I love you, me!

We've advanced, we cover it up. Our minds are way more powerful so we metamorphozize (or whatever) roses out of the ground when we bend down.

Bend over, rose come up in your face, sniff sniff - yeaaaaaaaaaa - my fackin' universe ASS smells fackin' rosy! :laugh:

JEG :p

:crazy2:(I've started signing my pictures with the three letters JEG which means "me" or "I" in norwegian, didn't really know that other people did it - but I guess its kinda au de natural)


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,619
Re: SouL -- The Spirit Carries ON..... [Re: slaphappy]
    #3925582 - 03/16/05 01:30 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

where are the signed pictures?


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:

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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: anything but 'soul' [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3926032 - 03/16/05 03:02 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


in a nutshell, that means the Taoist amazing magical training over the course of a hundred years or more (according to legend) lent people amazing magical abilities, and one such ability could have been a measure of conscious control over the physical appearance of their bodies.




all you've said is that the taoist can change his appearance through some ability. you havn't explained how. its the 'magical ability' bit which is undefined. i can offer an alternative suggestion that doesn't involve anything magical or unexplainable, which is why my suggestion is more logical. put it this way: i can fully explain my idea, while you cannot fully explain yours.

if you could come up with a feasible mechanism for how this ability works, then your idea would be just as logical as mine.

Quote:


the taoist training is an undefined factor in your argument.

it's not a 'factor' in my 'argument', and indeed I don't really have an 'argument'. Just an idea. seems like you're thinking of this as some high-stakes debate or something. I said at the outset it's poorly thought-out, I'm not writing my university thesis here. While I appreciate anyone's input, you're not exactly adding anything to the idea, which is what I secretly hoped everyone would do. please guys, I'm fragile, bolster me at all costs!




argument, idea, proposition, whatever you want to call it. i'm not contributing to your idea because, to be honest, i think its a bad idea. i mean no offence: that's just my opinion and i'm just giving reasons to back up my opinion. i think if you post an idea on this forum you have to accept that some people are going to disagree with it. its nothing personal.

Quote:


what is your argument? that souls don't exist? that whatever I say is wrong? that legendary taoist immortal masters aren't really immortal?




i'm saying that the most logical explanation for these taoist masters being described as animal-like in apperaance is because their appearances have been exaggerated in legend.

i'm not saying that your idea is wrong or impossible, just that mine is more logical.

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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Soul [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3926047 - 03/16/05 03:05 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:


you do realize it's impossible to define every term we use, of course? pointless too, because every definition wil include previously undefined words which we'll then need to define...




i'm not talking about definitions of words. what i mean is that this 'magical ability' you talk of is just something you have put into your idea without explaining how it works, i.e. without defining it.

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OfflineZekebomb
sociophagus

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Soul [Re: alsey]
    #3927912 - 03/16/05 08:48 PM (19 years, 2 months ago)

i'm not saying that your idea is wrong or impossible, just that mine is more logical.

cool, that's fine, I make no claims about being the most logical or anything.

put it this way: i can fully explain my idea, while you cannot fully explain yours.

aren't you just trying to prove a negative though? Here's me: "maybe ancient taoists used their skills to gain control over their bodily appearances." here's you: "No."

i'm not talking about definitions of words.

no? here's what you said: in my proposition, there is no need for an undefined factor. ahh, not definitions of words, definitions of factors. okay.

i'm not contributing to your idea because, to be honest, i think its a bad idea. i mean no offence

yeah, I acknowledge the fact that it's a pretty crummy idea. no of fence taken, I just had to cling to my faulty idea because I gave birth to it. You know, like people who have retarded kids still raise them and do their best to support them in the face of adversity, etc. You don't drown your kid just because it's retarded! But ideas aren't kids, and it's more acceptable for you to attack my retarded ideas than my retarded kids.

in my defense, I was stoned when I posted the original thread. You know, after all that, after admitting the idea is flawed, I still think there's something to it. IMO. but whatever. even as I was posting it, I predicted most of the points you raised, mainly the one about how scars represent damage to the arrangement of cells, and not to the cells themselves. well played, old chap.

I'm trying my damnedest to tie this post up into a devastating, satisfying conclusion which will act like a huge fist, pummeling all readers into silence, but ... I can't. sorry.

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Offlineslaphappy
Its just me
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Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 1,188
Loc: Norway, Eidsvoll, Råholt...
Last seen: 14 years, 8 months
Re: Soul [Re: slaphappy]
    #3928817 - 03/17/05 12:48 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

The logic thing is that you're all wrong, and I'm the only one getting it right. As it should be, because I'm the only one who created this universe.

Other than that, I don't think you should put your trust in logic.


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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Offlinealsey
meet me in thedreamtimewater...

Registered: 02/17/05
Posts: 1,203
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: Soul [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3929782 - 03/17/05 09:38 AM (19 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
aren't you just trying to prove a negative though? Here's me: "maybe ancient taoists used their skills to gain control over their bodily appearances." here's you: "No."




yes, maybe ancient taoists used their skills to change their appearance. maybe aliens landed and gave them plastic surgery.

i'm only trying to prove that my explanation for the taoist legends is more logical than yours, and we seem to be in agreement on that now.

Quote:


i'm not talking about definitions of words.

no? here's what you said: in my proposition, there is no need for an undefined factor. ahh, not definitions of words, definitions of factors. okay.




yes, exactly. the factor, or whatever you want to call it, that i'm talking about is this magical ability. you havn't explained how it works, i.e. you havn't defined exactly what it is.

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