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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6977917 - 05/28/07 01:48 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, soul refers to the mind-body, the psychosomatic whole which included all the components of mind - those which regulate autonomic processes and those which constitue higher cortical functioning, to which the prefrontal lobes belong. This is modern terminology. Old Testament prayer show us one way in which the person was regarded:

"Thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul and with all thy might."

Here, heart is regarded as the center of one's inner life, or 'spirit,' the soul refers to the complex called 'personality,' and might refers to the physical body. In Greece, some time later, Plato wrote (gleaned from his teacher Scrates) divided the soul into three aspects:

"In order to make the case that individual justice parallels political justice, Socrates must claim that there are precisely three parts of the soul. By cataloging the various human desires, he identifies a rational part of the soul that lusts after truth, a spirited part of the soul that lusts after honor, and an appetitive part of the soul that lusts after everything else, including food, drink, sex, and especially money. These three parts of the soul correspond to the three classes in the just city. The appetite, or money-loving part, is the aspect of the soul most prominent among the producing class; the spirit or honor-loving part is most prominent among the auxiliaries; and reason, or the knowledge-loving part, is dominant in the guardians.

Just relations between the three parts of the soul mirror just relations among the classes of society. In a just person the rational part of the soul rules the other parts, with the spirited part acting as helper to keep the appetitive in line. Compare this to the city where the truth-loving guardians rule, with the honor-loving auxiliaries acting as their helpers to keep the money-loving producers in line. What it means for one part of the soul to “rule” the others is for the entire soul to pursue the desires of that part. In a soul ruled by spirit, for instance, the entire soul aims at achieving honor. In a soul ruled by appetite, the entire soul aims at fulfilling these appetites, whether these be for food, drink, sex, fine material goods, or hordes of wealth. In a just soul, the soul is geared entirely toward fulfilling whatever knowledge-loving desires reason produces." (From B&N, Sparknotes on The Republic)

During the writing of New Testament books, the authors drew upon ancient Hebrew thought, and upon contemporary Hellenistic Jewish thought (The author of the Gospel of John seems to have drawn directly from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria who wrote lots on the Logos). Through Philo, Platonic metaphysics entered the New Testament ideas on the inner life, or in Paul's words, "the inner man."

The inner man of Paul is both the 'soul' [psyche] and the 'spirit' [pneuma]- the spirit represents the aspect of one's inner life which is supposed to be closest to the Logos, the creative, immanent and conscious 'Presence' which suffuses the world [cosmos]. Logos co-exists with cosmos and 'interfaces with one's 'spirit.' These two concepts derive ultimately from ancient Egyptian thought: the 'Ba' and the 'Ka' respectively. When, in the Egyptian Book of [the Dead] Coming Forth By Day, one's 'heart' is weighed against the goddess Maat's feather of Truth on 'Judgement Day,' and one's heart is found to be lighter than the feather, one is admitted into Eternal Life by entering into the god Osirus, and becoming the god. One's 'Ba' (soul) and one's 'Ka' (spirit) are reunited into a 'resurrection body' called the 'Akh' (not Ankh, which means Life or Eternal Life). One can see where Christianity derived its doctrines from.

Nevertheless, with regards to your statement. First it is necessary to obtain a more comprehensive definition than the one you quoted, which paraphrases the uncritical, not to mention erroneous view of the word soul by the common person. Once one establishes a more precise definition, one can make assertions for or against the existence of these inner realities. Such realities are either objects of belief, or they are objects of experience. That we 'are' a living soul, I have already established definitionally. We 'are' a psychosomatic being. What you question is not psychophysical reality, what you question is psychospiritual reality, "whether in the body or out of the body...," to quote St. Paul. Once again, these are either objects of transcendental experience (Gnosis), or they are objects of faith (pistis) in which one not having experienced Gnosis, believes another who has claimed to, and lives one's life based on that faith. The existence of one's psychospiritual existence after the death of the physical body is a further discussion, but as we all know is not able to be demonstrated because it is a reality that transcends space-time and sensate empiricism.

That you yourself experience neither of these categories of apperception is clear, but citing the unfortunate case of Phineas Gage (cited in practically every undergraduate textbook on abnormal psychology) has no bearing on the transcendental aspect of his human makeup. Whereas personality is a major aspect of one's psychosomatic whole, or soul, the soul being "psychoid" - partaking of psychical and physical aspects, and as such interactive and able to be effected,'spirit' is described as being indivisible and impassive - untouched by the vissisitudes of space and time, owing to its transcendental nature. Objecting to the existence of spirit is concommitant to objecting to the existence of the 'Great Spirit,' to wit, God. Nothing new is being said here. You do not believe in or Know God. And your point is, what, because you neither believe or Know, Ultimate Reality doesn't exist? I feel for your cosmic alienation, really...not to experience one's Ultimate Identity grounded in the One; to experience transiency alone without the corresponding transcendent?!! Personally, I don't think I could've endured this existence as long as I have. What would be the point?


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

Edited by MarkostheGnostic (05/28/07 02:08 PM)

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Invisibleelbisivni
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Veritas]
    #6977927 - 05/28/07 01:49 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

what if his original personality was nothing more than the creation of his ego and the damage left him at the will of his id, perhaps a closer relation of soul?

soul..eh...


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From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Veritas]
    #6977933 - 05/28/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

He consistently steered to the left, so how is this invalid?

It has to do with the complexity and coherence of the behavior.

A broken steering column (steering wheel to tire translation device) causes some random steering. A broken brain (soul to physical body translation device) causes some random behavior. That would the the correct analogy.

This isn't what we see in Phineas. His behavior was a seemingly-unbroken mean behavior. He doesn't twitch randomly as would happen if the soul to body translation was broken. He is specifically well coordinated and mean as fuck to the point of planning mean behavior. That doesn't sound like a broken brain-body linkage but rather a base shift in personality, something the soul, absent damage, shouldn't be able to do.

Extending this to the broken steering column analogy means you steer toward the grocery store but the car goes to your mother's house, making every turn and missing every obstacle along the way. It's not likely and neither is well-coordinated mean behavior arising after the injury if the brain is simply a soul-body translator.

BTW, who said that our souls have to be "nice"?

It doesn't. I'm talking about Phineas Gage. He was nice before the brain damage, and mean but well coordinated and articulate after. To me, that behaviour doesn't follow from a nice soul who's actions are being randomly distorted by a damaged translator brain.

These habits would be laid down as neurological pathways, and the destruction of those pathways would eliminate the habits.

Well, the destruction of neurological pathways as happens in the demyelination of multiple sclerosis, for example, manifests as a RANDOM interference with movement, sensation, visual perception, and even emotion. If there is a soul and if the outward manifestation of that soul occurs along established neurological pathways, then it's reasonable to believe that behavior originating in the soul would be randomly affected. In Phineas' case, that's not what happened. He just became consistently and coherently mean. There was nothing random about it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: CosmicStorm]
    #6977947 - 05/28/07 01:55 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I think that arguing about the existence of such a thing is futile, there is absolutely NO way to prove if it exists or not, until you die...and when your dead you cannot tell anyone what happens, if anything happens at all.

All philosophical discussions are futile from that point of view because in the end, Solipsism can't be refuted.

I still think it's worthwhile to talk about these things because even if absolute knowledge of the soul is beyond us, some reasonable conclusions can be drawn, especially as neurological science gets closer and closer to understanding the brain.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6977972 - 05/28/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Hey Diploid I grew up in the 70s and there is no doubt that "I GOT SOUL". :froman:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6977976 - 05/28/07 02:05 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Nevertheless, with regards to your statement. First it is necessary to obtain a more comprehensive definition than the one you quoted, which paraphrases the uncritical, not to mention erroneous view of the word soul by the common person.

You see, this is the Gagalog problem all over again which pops up every time I try to discuss the soul.

You very matter-of-factly state that my definition is erroneous and provide the definitive definition.

A few posts back, Psychoactive1984 did the same thing, contradicting both you and me.

A few posts from now no doubt a fourth person will post yet another definition, contradicting all three of us.

With so many definitions of a Gagalog and a soul, how can I know which, if any, is correct or that Gagalogs and souls even exist at all?

Would people be willing to eat something called Meatloaf served at a restaurant if every restaurant had a different definition for the word Meat? Probably not. Yet so many are so willing to buy into the soul concept lock, stock, and barrel without any critical thought and despite myriad contradicting definitions.

This is funny to me. :wink:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #6977981 - 05/28/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

"I GOT SOUL". :froman:

Yeah, brutha! And I was raised on my grandmother's SOUL FOOD!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6977990 - 05/28/07 02:11 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah Dude, and I got souls on the bottom of my feets. So get with the soul train program and you will be FREE


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #6977994 - 05/28/07 02:13 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Ice's theme song perhaps:
Quote:

Comin to ya on a dusty road
Good lovin I got a truck load
And when you get it you got something
So dont worry cause Im coming

Im a soul man
Im a soul man
Im a soul man
Im a soul man

Got what I got the hard way
And Ill make it better each and every day
So honey dont you fret
Cause you aint seen nothing yet

Im a soul man
Im a soul man
Play it steve!
Im a soul man
Im a soul man

Listen
I was brought up on a side street
I learned how to love before I could eat
I was educated from good stock
When I start lovin I just cant stop

Im a soul man
Im a soul man
Im a soul man
Im a soul man

Well grab the rope and Ill pull you in
Give you hope and be your only boyfriend
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Im a soul man
Im a soul man




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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #6977998 - 05/28/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

My grandma makes a mean pan fried soul, and I'm not talkin 'bout shoes eethu.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6978011 - 05/28/07 02:19 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

There's nothing funny about your impatience, lack of research into the historical creation of a concept, or willingness to base an argument about a substantial topic on a superficial definition of said topic.

Yes, you will have to specify whose concept of soul you are referring to which is why I spread out Egyptian, Jewish and Christian references. Otherwise, we are like four year olds talking our own autistic little monologues in one another's presence - never once having real communication - everyone in their own isolated world. See, I 'am' a soul, I don't 'have' a soul. That would be definitional square one for me.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6978034 - 05/28/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

There's nothing funny about your impatience, lack of research into the historical creation of a concept, or willingness to base an argument about a substantial topic on a superficial definition of said topic.

Right. This is the "my definition is better than yours" argument.

Yes, you will have to specify whose concept of soul you are referring to

I did.

which is why I spread out Egyptian, Jewish and Christian references

As if those are the only valid ones.

never once having real communication - everyone in their own isolated world

That's one of my points. There are too many different, contradictory definitions of soul for it to be a real thing. Hell, we can't even agree on a definition enough to discuss it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6978046 - 05/28/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Edit: I thought of a better analogy. A broken steering column won't make you drive to the grocery store when you intended to drive to your mother's house.




No, but smoking a bowl first will. :laugh:

I can actually accept the definition of 'soul' as given in the first post.  When I'm deep in thought, I 'feel' the thoughts as coming from my chest area, not my head/brain.

In addition, I've long considered the brain to be a tool that our soul(self) uses to process thoughts into movements, speech, actions, etc., but not the source of the thoughts themselves.  This would also help to understand the 19th century case cited, in that the guy became frustrated over loosing a part of his ability to process thoughts into action.  However, science is not based on a single diagnosis from a century and a half ago.  In the 19th century, many doctors also considered black and white people to be of different species, not races.

The brain acting alone does not explain psychic occurrences, such as thinking of someone just before the phone rings and it's them, or thinking of a long-lost friend, and then a few days later, a letter arrives from that person.  These things happen to everyone, whether or not they wish to chalk it up to psychic awareness or simply coincidence.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6978059 - 05/28/07 02:33 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The brain acting alone does not explain psychic occurrences, such as thinking of someone just before the phone rings and it's them

But probability does.

With countless billions of events going on all the time, some are bound to be interesting coincidences. Meanwhile, you remember the friend calling just as you thought of them, but forget thousands of times you thought of a friend and they didn't call.

This is a well-known phenomenon in statistics. It's called selective sampling. It's nothing new.

Now, predict something in a controlled test and I'll sit up and listen. Of course, at this point most believers will claim that the effect doesn't work when being tested, but it works fine the rest of the time. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6978081 - 05/28/07 02:41 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

This is a well-known phenomenon in statistics. It's called selective sampling. It's nothing new.





I knew you were going to write that.


--------------------

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OfflineRogerRabbitV
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #6978218 - 05/28/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Actually, I've had long lost friends that I hadn't thought of in years, who suddenly made contact just after I had thought of them. And no, I hadn't thought of them at all in years.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, but the odds of these events happening even once in our lifetime is very remote, but for them to happen time and time again points to something else. I just have a hard time with the idea that my brain is aware. After all, is my big toe aware? Are my eyes aware? Of course, these are the things of philosophy that have been discoursed about, talked about, and argued over for years, yet we're still no closer to the answer.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #6978257 - 05/28/07 03:28 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

If you thought of that friend over the years and later forgot you had thought of them (an entirely plausible scenario) you would ascribe special significance to the one time they happened to call because it would be the only time you stored in long term memory that you'd thought of them over the ears... even though you'd thought of them many times.

I have many times COMPLETELY forgotten about something only to find a wrinkled note that jogged my memory in a shirt pocket that was washed and not worn for years.

This happens all the time. Realizing that yes, it happens to you too, is the first step from irrational belief in an implausible explanation to the likely truth that fallible humans use selective sampling ALL THE TIME and don't even know it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Posts: 45,441
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6978271 - 05/28/07 03:35 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You miss the point.

RR had some really good friends, so good in fact that he NEVER ONCE EVER thought of them in the intervening years bewteen saying good-bye until seconds before the phone call.

Hope that clairifies.


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OfflineViveka
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6978284 - 05/28/07 03:39 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I don't believe the common notion of a soul. What I do know is that the force that creates our bodies from 2 gametes and continually renews and sustains our bodies every moment without need for any input from our conscious minds is something awesome and wonderful. It is an intelligence that is far more comprehensive, aware, and willfull than our own mind and awareness are even capable of imagining. You can call it the animal brain if you want, sure, a product of billions of years of evolution, I won't disagree with that, but it's still such a wonder, such an expansiveness of the mundane, that it defines the mystical.

What component of ourselves is it that creates and sustains our body and its millions of biological events taking place each moment? These are not orchestrated of the brain entirely. They are a different sort of consciousness. One, as I said before, that is unfathomably more impressive than the machinations or the frontal lobe, or even the more ancient parts of brain that appear to be running the life processes. The part of us that is immutable is not the self. The self is only an expression of the life force. The "soul" notion is an invention of the ego that is generated from such a vastly smaller intelligence than the one that allows ego to exist in the first place--it's this one that is seemingly invincible, though it ultimately doesn't seem concerned with you or I. What is this wondrous force? From where does its vastly capable, pure and unshakable intention originate.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6978296 - 05/28/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I have many times COMPLETELY forgotten about something only to find a wrinkled note that jogged my memory in a shirt pocket that was washed and not worn for years.





1. Try gingko biloba for that memory problem.

2. You seriously need to update your wardrobe. And no - floral print tropical shirts do NOT count!


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