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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6988004 - 05/30/07 05:00 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

We're debating on emulation though, we can' t come to a conclusive decision on the basis of the mind till we find out more. Until we at least have a working emulation of a human brain its relatively senseless to argue this further, we can barely utilize a mouse brain in this manner, its far too complex to come to a definitive conclusion.

We could argue from the stanc of data storage that the soul remains with the body just as data does the hard drive when all is said and done (assuming it doesn't get erased) and make all that applicable to the existance of a soul being retained to the degree the hardware is maintained i.e. mummification and various other funeral rituals preserving the framework of the body... altogether that is senseless though as it doesn't resemble the working model to the degree needed to come to a valid conclusion.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineJackenobi
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelive In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #6989264 - 05/30/07 09:54 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
So supposing that the soul is the agent, and the brain is the framework...




if we are supposing then why not the brain the agent and the soul the framework? framework = morals (interweaving pleasure and idea of good) = consciousness = back to the brain again

pleasant narrative = apparence of a soul as understood by the above terms
unpleasant narrative = hellfire, absence of a feeling that could be notioned as soul

narrative = you

infinite possibility available at any given moment

fall, fall back, balance, mind. Go!


--------------------
read books

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelive In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6989345 - 05/30/07 10:06 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
but if there is such a thing as soul it could have just been that he damaged the part of his brain that helped him make desicions.

This is non sequitur. The definition of 'soul' implies that it is the origin of decisions. Otherwise, what's its function? When we die and inhabit only our soul, will we lose the ability to make decisions?




forgive me for not reading the 100 other posts, so if something along the lines of what I am about to say has been said, then ignore it.

But my belief regarding the soul is a few criteria:
1) you are the soul, and you have a body/brain
2) the body is a vehicle for somewhat of a tangible expression of you (your soul).
3) the brain is the "motherboard" or "operator" that directs the rest of your body.
4) you (soul) communicate to the body through the brain and when a part of the brain becomes damaged, that is an avenue of communication that is shut down, or distorted.
5) it works both ways, that you (soul) will get distorted information or lack of info back from the brain.

so, this PC part of your brain, IMO, handles the communication from and to the soul regarding choice and such, and when that is damaged, atleast some part of the information given, recieved, or both is the cause for abberation.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelive In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Jackenobi]
    #6989511 - 05/30/07 10:36 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

The soul is the agent acting in accordance to the framework (experiences, preconcieved notions, etc), so as per the example the brain is messed up (the framework) yet the ability of the soul (the agent that is acting in accordance with the framework) is questioned. The soul is the agent, having the capability to act in accordance with the damaged framework. I dunno if this is any clearer, half of what i say only really makes sense to me :tongue: let me know.

You could easily suggest that the soul is the framework and the brain is the agent but under the guidelines stipulated it doesn't make much sense.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6990282 - 05/31/07 06:01 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
You're conflating a simple linkage (left/right) with a v-e-r-y complex one (behavior).

If a broken wire in a complex computer hard disk interface bus could cause every "A" you type to become a "B", I'd buy your simplistic explanation. What actually happens is that random gibberish gets written to the disk, ruining the data.

And if all the brain was claimed to do was to coordinate left and right movements willed in the soul and expressed in the body, I'd buy your explanation. That's not what was observed in Phineas' behavior. He didn't just go berserk. He became willfully, premeditatingly mean.

What you're saying amounts to believing that rapists are good people because it's just their brain doing the raping, not their soul.




Ahaa! "I've got it!" [to quote Betty Boop's Grampy] Diploid is a computer mavin, whose signature is of a Horta, a silicon-based life form. Diploid, young chap, are you sadly like the Charles Laughton Quasimodo (Hunchback of Notre Dame) who, bemoans to the gargoyle in his anguished, loveless existence, "Oh, why was I not made of stone, like thee?" Here then is is song to ponder. The tune is unforgettable if you haven't heard it.

In a 'Sensing' type such as yourself, the 'Intuitive' grasp of a non-empirical abstraction is certain to be rejected intellectually, but not so vehemently unless fueled by real emotion. I mean, it's more than just your sarcasm (towards me at least) that drives you. A pure phenomenologist with a sensate bent would not demonstrate such scathing feeling tones. I'm just wondering.

Simon and Garfunkel Lyrics
I Am a Rock


A winter's day
In a deep and dark December
I am alone
Gazing from my window
To the streets below
On a freshly fallen silent shroud of snow

I am a rock
I am an island

I've built walls
A fortress deep and mighty
That none may penetrate
I have no need for friendship
Friendship causes pain
It's laughter and it's loving I disdain.

I am a rock
I am an island

Don't talk of love
Well, I've heard the word before
It's sleeping in my memory
I won't disturb the slumber
Of feelings that have died
If I'd never loved,
I never would have cried

I am a rock
I am an island

I have my books
And my poetry to protect me
I am shielded in my armor
Hiding in my room
Safe within my womb
I touch no-one and no-one touches me

I am a rock
I am an island
And the rock feels no pain
And an island never cries

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6990493 - 05/31/07 08:19 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Ahh Markos,

True to form, you derail another thread to discuss Diploid rather than Soul.

Are you that threatened by anonymous words on a computer screen when they question your world view? Are you that attached to your ideas that anyone who undermines them sets you on the offensive?

Take a step back and see that your attitude clouds your view. For example, you overlay sarcasm where I intend none. You erroneously characterize my personality with certainty even though you've never met me (I'm an N not an S). And you derail threads with personalisms that add nothing but distraction to the discussion.

To what end? What do you get out of this except maybe hypertension?

Your clouded view also leads you to think I have certainty in the things I present. Far from it. I defend my point of view vigorously because that invites opposing points of view. It puts my ideas in a crucible to see if they should be abandoned or if they hold up under scrutiny. You don't see this because the only thing that comes through is a threat to your cherished, inviolate world view as if the threat was to you personally.

Chill out man. This thread attacks an idea. It does not attack Markos. Stop clinging to your ideas as if they are the ultimate and only truth that has to be defended as if your personal life is at stake. That's what fundamentalists do, not smart guys like you. Open your mind and accept that your version of the idea may be right... or it may be wrong and considering those possibilities does not threaten you.

You'll live longer and happier that way. :heart:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6990635 - 05/31/07 09:05 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, this forum is not for personalizing discussion in such a manner. Let's keep that in pm's. :smile:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineJackenobi
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelive In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #6990721 - 05/31/07 09:33 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

i see what you are saying i was just trying to use another perspective.

i think this thread amongst a tripping online populace is going to be very subjective to personal experience, given the fantastical nature of perceptions encountered, good or ill.


--------------------
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Invisibledaytripper23
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelive In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Jackenobi]
    #6990776 - 05/31/07 10:03 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

I think its relevant to this debate to discuss the psychology behind both sides of the debate. Really it is the only useful information that can be drawn from this debate, because obviously nobodies going to prove themselves correct on this one. Personally, this is something Ive been wondering about for a little while now.

But maybe the shit would hit the fans. Obviously its not up to me, Im just putting it out there. :sun:

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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6992807 - 05/31/07 07:08 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Ah, fair enough. Actually, I am NOT attached to my "ideas," I am attached to an 'attitude' which views subjective experiences as lenses through which Ultimate Reality can be Known. You're an Intuitive type? Really? I am surprised, but glad I was wrong! I am not threatened in my intellect - that is my strong point typologically. As my Lady says, 'my Mercury is in Leo,' or something to that effect. Actually, INTPs extravert Intuition, and  Introvert Thinking. When I meet someone new, I will get an immediate fix on the person Intuitively, and later be able to Think out a synopsis of their personality makeup, but if were to ask me what the person was wearing, for example, I'd probably be at a complete loss to remember.

Also, since ideas take birth in the personalities of individuals, it is difficult for me NOT to see the personal implications of people who put forth ideas. Sometimes I'm wrong like everyone else, but sometimes I'm aware of dynamics that others are not self-aware of. This is why I took training in Jungian analysis, because of my tendency to do this (as did Jung, the paradigmatic INTP).

BTW, I DO have hypertension, but it is currently controlled quite nicely in the 120/80 range  :smirk:. It does not derive from psychological causes.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6993886 - 05/31/07 10:51 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

You guys might want to invest in my soul. I hear silver is a hot commodity these days.


--------------------

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InvisibleChiefGreenLeaf

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,596
Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: CosmicStorm]
    #6994046 - 05/31/07 11:36 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Who ever said the soul had anything to do with desision making and personality? Of course those are just chemical and electrical process. They are bound to the physical world because they are influenced (or determined) by physical phenomonon. The soul can't really be explained in our language. Smoke some DMT guys...

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
    #6994201 - 06/01/07 12:49 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

so, do you keep your soul in the sock drawer? or is it under the soap?

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OfflineMuppet
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6995003 - 06/01/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
A malfunctioning linkage from soul to body would not manifest as a well-coordinated, intended, and verbally articulate mean behavior. Complicated machines don't break in ways that result in perfect but not-intended behavior.



touche/


--------------------


:craven:  Ravings of a Madman  :craven:

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: ChiefGreenLeaf]
    #6995103 - 06/01/07 10:49 AM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ChiefGreenLeaf said:
Smoke some DMT guys...




This is the about the lamest excuse for evidence around.


Hey what about beer? That will prove you got soul.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelive In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
    #6995992 - 06/01/07 02:57 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
This is different than a compete shift in personality from a nice guy to an asshole. You don't will kissing your wife and your damaged brain beats her with a baseball bat instead.

Edit: I thought of a better analogy. A broken steering column won't make you drive to the grocery store when you intended to drive to your mother's house. That's akin to what happened to poor Phineas.




What if the damage to Phineas' brain wasn't damage to the part that allowed the soul to interface with the body, but rather damage to part of the input device that gave information to the soul.

Phineas' soul could have remained intact, but if the inputs into the decision making entity get considerably befuddled, his entire personality could easily be changed. He's still using the same basic decision-making process, but formerly familiar experiences now seem to include vast quantities of new information to Phineas.

Prior to the accident, Phineas was getting two sources of information before he could make a decision: both the prefrontal cortex and his limbic center gave him input. Post-accident the prefrontal cortex stopped giving him information. It may have even been feeding him completely erratic information, something akin to phantom limb syndrome.

To go to the analogy of a car driving to the grocery store when you intended to drive to your mother's house, no a broken steering column won't do that.

But, someone redrawing the glove-compartment map and painting the windshield a nearly-opaque color might result in you driving to the grocery store when you meant to go to your mother's house, even if the rest of the car is working properly.

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Offlinenolongerinuse
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelive In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Economist]
    #6996048 - 06/01/07 03:17 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Why wouldnt there be a soul? I mean, if life can be taken away so easily, then there must be a continuation of part of oneself.

Alls i know is that it never ends. I think the soul is eternal, and it keeps on going, becuase it has always been, and doesnt know anything other than being; therefore, it cannot stop.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelive In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: nolongerinuse]
    #6996191 - 06/01/07 03:52 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

new2grow said:
Why wouldnt there be a soul? I mean, if life can be taken away so easily, then there must be a continuation of part of oneself.

Alls i know is that it never ends. I think the soul is eternal, and it keeps on going, becuase it has always been, and doesnt know anything other than being; therefore, it cannot stop.




That's quite a post.:lol: 

There wouldn't be a soul for lots of conceivable reasons and just because it's easy to die that's not a logical reason that there is a soul.

All I know

Yeah right. It seems obvious to me that you don't know, from the amazing logic you put forth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (06/01/07 03:53 PM)

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Offlinenolongerinuse
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelive In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Icelander]
    #6996288 - 06/01/07 04:22 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

People who live without a belief in a soul, or in a continuation of existence after 'this' make me feel sad for them.

Alls i know is that, wiat until someone close to you dies. Then just listen....lol just fucking listen! haaaaaaaaaaahahah!

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelive In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: nolongerinuse]
    #6996306 - 06/01/07 04:28 PM (16 years, 9 months ago)

So you assume that no one on this thread has lost someone close to them?  :confused:  Are you claiming that a belief in the soul and the afterlife is based upon coping with grief?

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