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Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Viveka]
#6978297 - 05/28/07 03:42 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Viveka]
#6978337 - 05/28/07 03:57 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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You can call it the animal brain if you want, sure, a product of billions of years of evolution, I won't disagree with that, but it's still such a wonder, such an expansiveness of the mundane, that it defines the mystical.
You'll get no argument from me that it is a wonder. Nature is a wonder. But that wonder does not necessarily require a creator or a soul or mysticism.
There are many things that were once considered so amazing that they just HAD to be a product of a creator. The complex molecular biology required for a pancreas to manufacture insulin in a healthy person, for example.
Today, it's a routine function in pharmaceutical labs around the world.
So the bar was raised. Insulin manufacture is no longer a wondrous, spiritual thing but a technological thing.
One day, all those things the brain does that today are ascribed to a supernatural soul will be done by a man-made machine. And then the bar will be raised again because no matter how many times a magical thing is deflated by a technological advance, believers will demand some new magical thing that technology hasn't done yet in order to keep their beliefs viable.
This refusal to accept what the evidence suggests and changing the definition of what is so wondrous that it MUST be supernatural every time the old definition becomes inconvenient is dogma.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#6978343 - 05/28/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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My memory is only partially gone, so maybe I'll just try gingko or biloba, but not both.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Viveka
refutation bias
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
#6978366 - 05/28/07 04:07 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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I pretty much agree with you, only I wonder, where did the intention of life originate.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Viveka]
#6978387 - 05/28/07 04:12 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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only I wonder, where did the intention of life originate
Intention implies an entity that intended it. A Creator.
Maybe that Creator exists, and maybe not. I think the latter is more likely because if life was intended by a Creator, then it begs the question of what meta-Creator created our Creator, and so on. It seems absurd.
Why can't things just exist without our imposing the anthropomorphic requirement that there has to be an ultimate Creator? In the absence of any evidence for a Creator, this seems the reasonable conclusion.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,441
Loc: Under the C
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
#6978392 - 05/28/07 04:13 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: My memory is only partially gone, so maybe I'll just try gingko or biloba, but not both.
You would only eat the lizard part?
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Viveka
refutation bias
Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
#6979355 - 05/28/07 08:36 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Intention is a human concept, yes, but I do not believe the the drive to mantain life, what i'm refering to as an intention, has to be generated by an entity. This is what I find intriguing, that we develop from a zygote, we grow from a seemingly simple to a very complex biological organism, and the same force that acheived this feat maintains every function necessary to support life, completely automatically. I am completely open to the possibility that life arose spontaneously, in fact I'm fairly certain it did, but the wonder still remains, independent of any anthropomorphic judgement about nature. I don't believe a supernatural hierarchy is required to experience wonder. The marvelous complexity and order of what I could find in my own backyard is enough to inspire it.
I have a lot more to say about this topic but I am short on time at the moment.
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Moonshoe
Blue Mantis
Registered: 05/28/04
Posts: 27,202
Loc: Iceland
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
#6980182 - 05/28/07 11:14 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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You suggest that the change in personality resulting from brain injury provides an argument against the existance of a soul.
If so, the following should be equally convincing:
Ted was a sweet, loving little boy. He always played nicely with others and shared his toys with his little sister.
But when he grew up and turned 26, he just wasnt the same person. He stayed up all night doing drugs, abused his girlfriend and kicked his dog.
His mother and his family said he just wasnt Ted anymore.
Now, this fact, that personality changes naturally throughout our human lives, or dramatically in the case of brain injury, is a strong argument against the existance of a soul only if we define the soul as nescessarily static, unchanging, and fundamentally a personality.
If however, we view the soul as a dynamic, living thing that changes over time, or if we view it as something beyond or different from what is thought of as personality (as most traditions do) then your story and mine have no particular impact on the probability of the souls existance, one way or the other.
-------------------- Everything I post is fiction.
Edited by Moonshoe (05/28/07 11:28 PM)
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kotik
fuckingsuperhero
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
#6980223 - 05/28/07 11:22 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: First some context:
Every time I bring up the topic of the soul, the debate goes off topic into the definition of the soul rather than about the beef of what I'm presenting. So, for this thread, let's stipulate to the definition given by dictionary.com:
the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity separate from the body, and commonly held to be separable in existence from the body; the spiritual part of humans as distinct from the physical part.
ah, but alas - the very attempt at putting the soul into words, or definitions already leads everything of topic.
the soul is something you have to experience, not read or debate. As wishy washy as that sounds.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Moonshoe]
#6980280 - 05/28/07 11:32 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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While I agree with you on the fact that there doesn't has to be a fixed definition for the soul since it's something that is to be transcended and felt (at least in my opinion) and also in my opinion is kind of the same as trying to prove free will (which is also felt but one could come up with different explanations for it's non-existence, and which I believe is the manifestation of the soul, of one's awareness) , I don't exactly understand what your example exactly serves for
This has a pure psychological explanation. One, in this case Ted, is repressing different feelings, thoughts and emotions (time in which he appears the same to his mother) and then BAM... all these repressed feelings explode which determine him to "dramatically" change. Therefore, it looks to me more like a thought product. The entire construct of personality, IMO, is psychological.
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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elbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6980321 - 05/28/07 11:42 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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no soul for you!!!
-------------------- From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: elbisivni]
#6980335 - 05/28/07 11:45 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Heheh... it's ok I got weed Oh and yes... in case you didn't know... Japanese people don't have souls accordingly to South Park... could I be Japanese?
-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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elbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: MushroomTrip]
#6980341 - 05/28/07 11:46 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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no I'm just being a soul nazi
-------------------- From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
#6980750 - 05/29/07 03:39 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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If I say there is a creature living in the Florida Everglades called a Gagalog who no one has ever seen but who many people know about, and when those knowing people are questioned each comes up with a different description contradicting every other knowing person, chances are there is no such thing as a Gagalog.
Gagalogs can't be large and small, white and black, four legged and winged, and vicious and friendly at the same time.
With the same reasoning, I come to the conclusion that a soul with as many different definitions as there are believers likely doesn't exist either.
There are different definitions of the pleasure system in the brain, Muslim, world, table, diploid, tiger, sea lion and even, definition. Is this even less reason to believe in the existence of these? Derrida's deconstruction is built upon these difference definitions.
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dattaswami
Stranger
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
#6981405 - 05/29/07 10:14 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: First some context:
Every time I bring up the topic of the soul, the debate goes off topic into the definition of the soul ........com]dictionary.com:[/url]
the principle of life, feeling, thought, and action in humans, regarded as a distinct entity sep............... The only way the personality could be so affected by brain damage is if personality is wholly produced in the physical brain, and there is no such thing as a soul.
First of all we should analyse the soul. The soul is made of pure awareness. The vibrations of pure awareness are called as feelings or qualities. Therefore all the characteristic qualities are associated with the soul and are made of pure awareness.
What is pure awareness? It is only a special form of inert energy. When we eat the food, it is oxidised by the oxygen received through the respiratory system. When the food is assimilated in the digestive system, it is oxidised by the Oxygen from the respiratory system, which is carried by the blood in dissolved state through Haemoglobin. The oxidation of food is exothermic reaction and liberates inert heat energy. This inert heat energy is converted into a special form of energy called awareness by the nervous system.
The electricity is produced by the generator and enters the tube light. The electrical energy is converted into light, which is another new form of energy. The heat energy produced by the interaction of digestive and respiratory system is called life energy (Pranamaya kosa). When this heat energy is converted into awareness by nervous system the awareness or mind is produced (Manomaya kosa). This awareness which is in the purest state is called as the soul (or Atman). This awareness is propagated in the form of pulses and these pulses as a bundle is called as Jeeva. The bundle of pulses of awareness is called as simply Jeeva from the point of pulses, is called as Atman from the point of awareness and is also called as Jeevatman from the point of both the pulses and awareness.
The constant propagation of pulses is called as mind (manas). The impressions of strong pulses are called as Chittam. The production of strong of pulses by the interaction of several weak pulses is called as intelligence or determination or Buddhi. The strong pulse that keeps the identity of the body is called as Ahamkara or ego. When you say the word Jeeva, it refers only to Manas, Chittam, Buddhi and Ahamkara (Antahkaranams). Therefore the soul and Jeeva together called as Jeevatma is only a special form of energy i.e., generated by the interaction of digestive, respiratory and nervous systems. Thus Jeeva representing the bundle of characteristics and Atman representing the special form of energy or Soul can be only the items of creation and not the creator. You are worried about the generation of Soul but there need not be any worry because Soul is an item of creation. In this creation there is conversion of matter into energy.
There is conversion of one type of matter into another type of matter through a chemical reaction as done by chemists. There is also conversion of one form of energy into another form of energy as done by physicists. There is conversion of matter into energy as done by technologists and engineers. Now if the Soul is generated, what is there to worry? This topic comes under the realm of creation and is within the boundaries of the creation. Gita says that the Soul is Paraprakruti. Prakruti means creation. Para means the finest part of creation. Therefore the transformation of Soul or division of Soul or generation of Soul is only topic of science and is not a topic of spirituality. Spirituality deals with creator who is beyond the creation. Veda says ‘Annat Purushah’, which means that the Soul is produced from the food. It is conversion of matter into Soul, which is energy.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs
Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 3 years, 15 days
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: dattaswami]
#6981418 - 05/29/07 10:23 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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-------------------- All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Diploid]
#6981493 - 05/29/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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If the soul can be defined as universal rather than personal then I can personally make a case for it. Individual souls don't really make sense to me. The watcher who sits behind the individuality and it's programs I could call the soul.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 6,440
Loc: mumuland
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Lakefingers]
#6981560 - 05/29/07 11:23 AM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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P.S. Seems like this thread has the same problems as your other threads. Time for yet another approach?
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: dattaswami]
#6981805 - 05/29/07 12:23 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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The soul is made of pure awareness. The vibrations of pure awareness are called as feelings or qualities. Therefore all the characteristic qualities are associated with the soul and are made of pure awareness.
Oh joy!
Just like I predicted, here we have a fourth definition contradicting Psychoactive1984, Markos, and me.
Who wants to go next?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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elbisivni
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 2,839
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Re: More Reasons To Disbelieve In The Existence Of The Soul [Re: Lakefingers]
#6981837 - 05/29/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 9 months ago) |
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it's like trying to have a conversation about hamburgers while trying to define a hamburger as "a Quarter-Pounder with Cheese from McDonald's" (or a "Royal with Cheese" if you live in Paris)
you're the guy from the hamburger train, right? would you like to have a hamburger?
-------------------- From dust you are made and to dust you shall return.
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