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Invisibleniteowl
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Perpetual Motion
    #5710465 - 06/04/06 08:20 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

While reading Huehuecoyotls post, One River, I was reminded of an idea I've had, for some time now.

Bear with me.

From what we know about galaxy formation, some galaxies have black holes at their core.

This is M51, The Whirlpool Galaxy.

It's a spiral galaxy, seen face on.. One of the kind of galaxys, they are finding black holes in.


Some black holes "jet" material out their poles.

This is a spiral galaxy seen edge on.

The blue streaks show x-rays

What if these black holes, are jetting basic sub atomic particles, (galactic stem cells) back into space, to settle into the galaxy, to start the whole system over again.

That could be why some galaxies have very dark dust lanes. Ones whose central singularity recently vented, and the dust is starting to settle down into the galaxy.

The ones that appear relatively dust free, are the ones that are getting ready to vent.

Gods own perpetual motion/energy/life system????


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5710468 - 06/04/06 08:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

:lol:

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5714086 - 06/05/06 07:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
"In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"




So, since we understand how things work around this star system, we instantly assume that these laws are universal.

These may only be local laws.

Systems with radically different star and planet systems may not act the way you expect them too.

Black holes are one of the biggest mysteries.

What are they?
Why do some seem to eject material?
How long have they been around?
What causes them?

Virtually every thing, we think we know, is based on assumptions.

Do we know what temperature water freezes at here.....:yesnod:
Do we know how water freezes around some vastly different solar system....:noway:

It is just an assumption based on very limited knowledge.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5714118 - 06/05/06 07:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

That assumption - that the laws of physics are universal - is a fundamental requirement of modern physics.

Further, nothing we have detected in the way of EM radiation has lead us to believe that the laws of physics should be any different at different points in the universe. The light coming from distant stars behaves exactly the same way as the light coming from our sun (or from a light source here on Earth). If the laws of physics were different at other points in the universe, we would expect to see it as such by the light coming from those areas.

We don't, so it is a safe assumption that the laws of physics are the same everywhere.

As for black holes...they are actually understood a lot better than you seem to think.

What are they?

Stars that have collapsed beyond their Schwarzschild radius.

Why do some seem to eject material?

The material isn't ejected from within the black hole itself. It is shot away at incredible speeds from the area surrounding the black hole. Essentially, the material being drawn into the black hole can be accelerated so fast that it will "miss" the black hole and be flung off into space.

How long have they been around?

The first black holes could have formed after the first generation of stars began to near the end of their lives.

What causes them?

Collapsing stars.


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5714124 - 06/05/06 07:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Do we know what temperature water freezes at here.....:yesnod:
Do we know how water freezes around some vastly different solar system....:noway:




So you claim that the basic physical laws of entropy and thermodynamics are different depending upon geographic (in a universal sense) location?  Newton has gotta be rolling grave...


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Seuss]
    #5714136 - 06/05/06 07:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

All I'm really saying is, we can never truly know what is happening, on a cosmic scale.

Virtually every time we turn around, we are discovering things, that make us re-think how our world works.

And that is, really, all we can do.
Understand this world.

Everything else is speculation.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5714274 - 06/05/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> All I'm really saying is, we can never truly know what is happening, on a cosmic scale.

That, I can accept. It is amazing how much we think we know versus how much we really have no clue about.

Edit: We being mankind in general.


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Edited by Seuss (06/05/06 09:26 AM)


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Seuss]
    #5715058 - 06/05/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

makes perfect sense nightowl

also, the singularity itself is basically the exact same force in the universe as Christ.


as for ideas of entropy and thermodynamics-
it means nothing

it is true in this House we must obey the law of thermodynamics.
but there are other dimensions you can move through to pass by any law, like breaking the speed of light, or anything you can think of

by nature the universe is not so rigid
if it were, it would break


you can look at that picture of the galaxy with the blue x rays spewing out.
that is also what the tiniest sub-atomic field looks like.
the fabric of the universe is like endless tiny black hole lookin' thingys

when did Newton live? man it had to be 1500 or earlier wasn't it?
i think it's about time he does some rollin' in his grave.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5715739 - 06/05/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I was simply referring to an episode of the Simpsons. :smirk:

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--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
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For I've never known completeness
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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
    #5716159 - 06/05/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
also, the singularity itself is basically the exact same force in the universe as Christ.




Nope. The singularity is the point at which the neutron degenerancy pressure is at such a point that, due to the Pauli exclusion principle, the neutrons would have to be moving at a speed in excess of the speed of light. Since such a thing is not possible by our standard models of physics, we are unable to predict what happens to the object, only define its properties as it relates to the "outside" universe.

So far as I am aware, when the pressure increases to such a point, and neutron degenerancy pressure is no longer enough to hold the star together, there is no barrier to infinite collapse, and all the matter contracts into a singular non-dimensional point, thus creating a space in which the mass/volume is essentially a place where the universe is trying to divide by zero. Such makes the singularity mathematically impossible, and weird as hell.

Quote:

Telepylus said:
as for ideas of entropy and thermodynamics-
it means nothing

it is true in this House we must obey the law of thermodynamics.
but there are other dimensions you can move through to pass by any law, like breaking the speed of light, or anything you can think of

by nature the universe is not so rigid
if it were, it would break




Wrong, unfounded and meaningless.

At least, if you trust any human knowledge that has been found to be more reliable then Brownian motion.

Wrong-> Entropy and thermodynamics are statistical laws. Violation is possible, but, by definition, really^very^12^19 improbable.

Unfounded-> Quite simply, your concept of dimensional travel relies upon fantasy notions of dimension.

Meaningless-> Who says the universe would break? The laws we have created are mathematical models of the behavior of the universe. We may amend our math, but there's never been any suggestion that the universe behaves in a manner other then the way the universe behaves. In fact, such a concept is rather nonsensical. (I do believe I wrote universe a lot in that sentence. Universe.)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
you can look at that picture of the galaxy with the blue x rays spewing out.
that is also what the tiniest sub-atomic field looks like.
the fabric of the universe is like endless tiny black hole lookin' thingys




Nope(sub)1, nope(sub)2 and (wtf?)

Nope(sub)1-> That pic is a false-color photograph. Human eyes cannot see x-rays, and therefore cannot see blue x-rays. Blue is a property of the portion of the EM spectrum with a wavelength twixt 420–490 nanometers.

Nope(sub)2-> A sub-atomic field has something to do with quantum field theory, which neither you, nor I, understand. I do, however, know this much: One cannot look at a sub-atomic field, and saying, even that is has a "look" as it corresponds to our existence is at the least misleading, and at the most completely ignorant garbage.

(wtf?)->
Quote:

Telepylus said:the fabric of the universe is like endless tiny black hole lookin' thingys




Quote:

Telepylus said:
when did Newton live? man it had to be 1500 or earlier wasn't it?
i think it's about time he does some rollin' in his grave.




4 January 1643 – 31 March 1727

Roll dead genius, roll.


Edited by Xanthas (06/05/06 06:55 PM)


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5716184 - 06/05/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I was simply referring to an episode of the Simpsons. :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Quote:

Lisa Simpson said:
Grade me, GRADE ME!




Edited by Xanthas (06/05/06 07:03 PM)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: trendal]
    #5716341 - 06/05/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
As for black holes...they are actually understood a lot better than you seem to think.

What are they?

Stars that have collapsed beyond their Schwarzschild radius.




So these black holes could not be primal. A part of the universe that has been here since the big bang. Driving the formation of galaxies.

I guess we have actually studied them up close and seen a star actually collapse into a singularity......or is it just speculation?


Quote:

Why do some seem to eject material?

The material isn't ejected from within the black hole itself. It is shot away at incredible speeds from the area surrounding the black hole. Essentially, the material being drawn into the black hole can be accelerated so fast that it will "miss" the black hole and be flung off into space.




More speculation


Quote:

How long have they been around?

The first black holes could have formed after the first generation of stars began to near the end of their lives.




Speculation

Quote:

What causes them?

Collapsing stars.




Please prove.....beyond a shadow of a doubt, all these things you believe.

You cant. I cant. No one can.

We are just shooting in the dark, guessing about these things.


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5716442 - 06/05/06 08:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Please prove.....beyond a shadow of a doubt, all these things you believe.

You cant. I cant. No one can.

We are just shooting in the dark, guessing about these things.




Please prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you exist.

You can't. I can't. No one can.

We are just shooting in the dark, guessing about these things.




However, we can make logical conclusions based upon the universe we observe, if we assign the existence of the universe itself primacy. From that point on, we can 1)observe, 2)hypothesize, 3)predict, 4)test, and 5)conclude, repeating any/all steps as necessary.

From that process, which is the same process which brought you your house, electricity, this forum, all of life-as-we-know-it, we can conclude the existence of an object which corresponds with our present understanding of the universe, which we call a black hole.




On another point- The radiation "emitted" from a black hole actually takes two forms. The first is UV radiation, usually in the form of x-rays, which are radiated due to the massive increase in heat from the contraction of gas around a black hole. The second, so-called hawking radiation, is given off when virtual particle-antiparticle pairs are formed near a black hole. As one particle may fall into a black hole, it would gain negative energy due to its loss of gravitational potential energy, while the other particle would be flung out with positive energy.

The negative energy would be combined with the black hole's total energy, and thus total mass, decreasing it.



Quote:

niteowl said:
So these black holes could not be primal. A part of the universe that has been here since the big bang. Driving the formation of galaxies.




A possibility, but not one which detracts from the theory of black hole formation due to collapsing supermassive stars.


Edited by Xanthas (06/05/06 08:08 PM)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Xanthas]
    #5716516 - 06/05/06 08:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
So these black holes could not be primal. A part of the universe that has been here since the big bang. Driving the formation of galaxies.




A possibility, but not one which detracts from the theory of black hole formation due to collapsing supermassive stars.




There is no evidence that stars collapse into black holes.......only speculation.

"We think thats the way it is.....so it must be true"  :rolleyes:


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5716544 - 06/05/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

lol xanthas


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5716701 - 06/05/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Xanthas said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
So these black holes could not be primal. A part of the universe that has been here since the big bang. Driving the formation of galaxies.




A possibility, but not one which detracts from the theory of black hole formation due to collapsing supermassive stars.




There is no evidence that stars collapse into black holes.......only speculation.

"We think thats the way it is.....so it must be true"  :rolleyes:




There is no evidence that stars exist outside our solar system. Or, for that matter, inside our solar system. Only speculation based upon logical conjecture.

My, and my guess is, your, grounds for believing that there is an external reality are even shakier. Hell, the principle of induction is self-referential.

Quote:

Telepylus said:
lol xanthas




Why?


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Offlinesparks8
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Xanthas]
    #5717498 - 06/06/06 12:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yea we dont know shit. i read somewhere once that most of the universe is made up of shit we cant see or messure, dark matter or some shit. its basicly just a theroy to support our current beliefs of why the universe is expanding. seems a vicious circle.


Edited by sparks8 (06/06/06 12:03 AM)


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: sparks8]
    #5717516 - 06/06/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I read in New Scientist a couple days back where they were reviewing this book presenting a theory of the whole system being just one big fractal. :wink: Think the issue was from 03 or something, but can't remember the edition. Anyway they claimed that this theory could explain the whole dark matter stuff if it was right.

Also the same magazine had more information on dark matter. They claimed that due to our current gravitational laws galaxies would collapse, they couldn't possibly be held together as they are now.

They seemed to speculate in black holes as some sort of interdimensional birthing channels.

Heheh. I don't remember much of it, but interesting stuff nontheless.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: dorkus]
    #5717651 - 06/06/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Very interesting ideas.

I think that any and all ideas should be looked at rationally.

As we understand, the universe will either fade into nothing, or collapse into a big crunch........depending on how we work the numbers.

If we are guessing at the starting numbers, and continue to tweek the equation, to make it fit our POV.......the equation works.

Math is strange that way.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Xanthas]
    #5717774 - 06/06/06 01:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:

Quote:

niteowl said:
So these black holes could not be primal. A part of the universe that has been here since the big bang. Driving the formation of galaxies.




A possibility, but not one which detracts from the theory of black hole formation due to collapsing supermassive stars.

There is no evidence that stars collapse into black holes.......only speculation.

There is no evidence that stars exist outside our solar system. Or, for that matter, inside our solar system. Only speculation based upon logical conjecture.




Are you saying the existence of the sun is a mere speculation?

:lol:

The fact that we know it's speed of rotation, it's chemical makeup, the effects of it's solar flares on aurora borealis aren't just shots in the dark, they are proven facts.

In fact, not only do we know our sun, we have information on stars millions of light years away, and not on just their position, but their age, their temperature, and their makeup.

Think about this: You are studying the makeup of the human race. Instead of studying a baby grow old into an old man, you could instead go to, New York, a large collection of humans in a small spot, and study babies, adolescents, adults, and the elderly, putting together a report of how a baby turns into an old man.

Think of a star cluster as "New York". And in our case, we do not only have "New York", but plenty of other cities, and even clusters of galaxies to make these observations. And while we may not know what is happening inside the singularity point of a black hole, we've got the general grasp on the universe.

And whoever said that the universe is made up of millions of "black hole thingies", might not have had the literal knowledge on Astronomy, but had the general idea. There's a fine line between the Subatomic Realm and the Astronomic.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5717796 - 06/06/06 02:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
As we understand, the universe will either fade into nothing, or collapse into a big crunch........depending on how we work the numbers.




It's doing neither. If you follow Newton's Laws, the inertia of our universe will eventually slow down to a halt and our universe will run out of energy that it has gotten from the Big Bang.

However! While Newton's Laws work great for on Earth, they don't apply in cosmological sizes of the universe. Everything instead is actually speeding up away from each other, with greater and greater speed.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
    #5717812 - 06/06/06 02:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

if you take a telescope and aim it outward into space you're going to see spiral galaxy thingys.
and if you aim the telescope at your hand (microscope) eventually you will see little tiny galaxy lookin' thingys inside there too.

i don't think it's that hard to understand what is happening at the singularity, or the zero point.
and i don't think it's hard to make a correlation to christ either.

you can see it like this.
a whirlpool of water going down a drain.
on the surface of the water is a bunch of ink, colors, like in the pattern of the world, all blue and green and brown, with white clouds.

it will swirl and swirl and mix up into spirals
and mix together and get sucked down the hole into the singularity, where everything is sort of basically destroyed, or forced into ONE and nothing.

then what happens?
well, if the ink has some virtue of love or integrity to remain whole, this means that when the ink comes spiraling out the otherside of the drain, it's going to reform the EXACT same patterns of blue and green and brown and white that we set in the beginning.

(ok, so it's not a drain, it's a centrifugal whirlpool created in outerspace, you get the idea)

that is what the christ/eternity machine works
and that is what a black hole singularity thingy does

it doesn't take an astrophysicist to understand what the singularity is, it's something a little child can understand. alot like ABC's.


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
    #5717826 - 06/06/06 02:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


if you take a telescope and aim it outward into space you're going to see spiral galaxy thingys.
and if you aim the telescope at your hand (microscope) eventually you will see little tiny galaxy lookin' thingys inside there too.





:lol:

Hahaha, well, no. Like I said, you've got an 'idea', but really don't know what's going on at all.

Reading's your friend!  :wink:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
    #5717856 - 06/06/06 02:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
As we understand, the universe will either fade into nothing, or collapse into a big crunch........depending on how we work the numbers.




It's doing neither. If you follow Newton's Laws, the inertia of our universe will eventually slow down to a halt and our universe will run out of energy that it has gotten from the Big Bang.




That is the "fade into nothing" ending of our galaxy.

Quote:

However! While Newton's Laws work great for on Earth, they don't apply in cosmological sizes of the universe. Everything instead is actually speeding up away from each other, with greater and greater speed.




Not all galaxies are running away from each other. Galaxy collision is said to occur. The Milky Way and the Andromeda galaxy are supposed to collide in the distant future.

We dont know enuf about our own planet, to think we have the whole of creation figured out.........virtually ANYTHING is possible.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5718276 - 06/06/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
I think that any and all ideas should be looked at rationally.




How could we do that, when any tested ideas and concepts arrived at through application of rational thought are entirely dismissed by you as "speculation", "speculation", "speculation", "speculation"?

:rolleyes:

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--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5718285 - 06/06/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
We dont know enuf about our own planet, to think we have the whole of creation figured out.........virtually ANYTHING is possible.




If we are rooted in that much unknowing, then we have no means by which to come to the conclusion that "virtually ANYTHING is possible". I'm afraid you can't have it both ways...

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
    #5718330 - 06/06/06 09:35 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> If you follow Newton's Laws, the inertia of our universe will eventually slow down to a halt

Ah yes, Newton's 1st law... an object in motion tends to stay in motion, but a universe in motion tends to eventually slow down and halt.

> and our universe will run out of energy

I keep forgetting that energy can be created and destroyed. Silly me.

> While Newton's Laws work great for on Earth, they don't apply in cosmological sizes of the universe.

They don't? Guess we need to go out and rewrite all the physic books. By definition, a physical law, such as Newton's laws, are "universal". They appear to apply everywhere in the universe. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_laws

> Everything instead is actually speeding up away from each other, with greater and greater speed.

This is known as acceleration.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Seuss]
    #5718358 - 06/06/06 09:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

They don't? Guess we need to go out and rewrite all the physic books. By definition, a physical law, such as Newton's laws, are "universal". They appear to apply everywhere in the universe

I know Einstein's General Theory of Relativity doesn't apply on a quantum scale, do you know if Newton's laws do?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

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OfflineFospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Seuss]
    #5718750 - 06/06/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Please, sir, can I have some more sarcasm?




Quote:

Seuss said:

> and our universe will run out of energy

I keep forgetting that energy can be created and destroyed. Silly me.





Kinetic will convert into potential energy, and once the universe has no more inertia, it will freeze over and come to a halt. According to Newton, all the Galaxies will eventually come together pulled by gravity, eventually having all of it's movement converted into PE. Sorry I forgot to include a textbook defintion with every description.

Quote:


> While Newton's Laws work great for on Earth, they don't apply in cosmological sizes of the universe.

They don't? Guess we need to go out and rewrite all the physic books. By definition, a physical law, such as Newton's laws, are "universal". They appear to apply everywhere in the universe. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_laws





Oh, everywhere? They even take into account dark matter and dark energy, and the fact that this unseen substance makes up for 90% of the universe? Oops, guess it doesn't work there. How about quantum mechanics, where almost no laws of Newton apply, and can also break the law of casualty? Or the acceleration (boy, thanks for the vocabulary help!!!1) of the universe noted by the Doppler redshift?


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
    #5718811 - 06/06/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

the ultimate solution unifying all phenomenon is already documented and available to anyone ready to receive it.
the only real mystery remaining is how and why it keeps itself so well concealed from the world.


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
    #5719712 - 06/06/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Oh, everywhere? They even take into account dark matter and dark energy, and the fact that this unseen substance makes up for 90% of the universe? Oops, guess it doesn't work there. How about quantum mechanics, where almost no laws of Newton apply, and can also break the law of casualty? Or the acceleration (boy, thanks for the vocabulary help!!!1) of the universe noted by the Doppler redshift?




(Newtons laws were modified by relativity, and are not directly used without such modifications any more.)

Firstly, dark matter and dark energy are vastly different things.
Secondly, yes, General relativity affects (or rather, interacts with) them. General relativity affects (interacts with) everything.
Thirdly, quantum mechanics is affected by general relativity, we just don't know how yet. The scientific world is hard at work trying to figure just that out.
How does the red shifting of objects in space have anything to do with violating universal laws?

(Ever have something to say that is needed, but a bit too close to being a flame?

All I can say is, this discussion needs to be educated. It would take way too long to point out all the flaws in nearly every post. I suggest that everyone buy and read a bunch of high school textbooks. Namely, physics, biology, astronomy, and possibly chemistry. If nothing else, Wikipedia is your friend.)


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
    #5719715 - 06/06/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
the ultimate solution unifying all phenomenon is already documented and available to anyone ready to receive it.
the only real mystery remaining is how and why it keeps itself so well concealed from the world.




...What?


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Xanthas]
    #5719809 - 06/06/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:
(Newtons laws were modified by relativity, and are not directly used without such modifications any more.)





Newton's laws weren't modified, however the laws of universal gravitation were replaced by Einstein's GR. On a macroscopic level, all of Newton's laws apply to this Earth. On a cosmological and quantum level, however, the laws don't apply, modified or not. Einstein's laws, for the most part, do.

Quote:


Firstly, dark matter and dark energy are vastly different things.





They both apply to my post, your point being?

Quote:


Secondly, yes, General relativity affects (or rather0, interacts with) them. General relativity affects (interacts with) everything.




Yes! ...but I wasn't saying that GR doesn't. 

Quote:


Thirdly, quantum mechanics is affected by general relativity, we just don't know how yet. The scientific world is hard at work trying to figure just that out.




That may be, but how can you accept something as proof which hasn't even been proven yet? :crazy:

Quote:


How does the red shifting of objects in space have anything to do with violating universal laws?

(Ever have something to say that is needed, but a bit too close to being a flame?




Chill the fuck out, first of all.  :smirk:

The redshift of an object can tell us the velocity, such as the direction of travel of a receeding galaxy. If galaxies move farther and farther from each other, something is definetly haywire in Newton's law of universal gravitation.

Quote:


All I can say is, this discussion needs to be educated. It would take way too long to point out all the flaws in nearly every post


 

Such as your brand spanking new, modified laws of Newton? :lol:


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Edited by Fospher (06/06/06 05:27 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
    #5719976 - 06/06/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

On a macroscopic level, all of Newton's laws apply to this Earth. On a cosmological and quantum level, however, the laws don't apply, modified or not.

Actually they do apply - it is only in cases of extreme gravity that we have to use GR. Newton's Laws are a nearly perfect approximation and work quite well even on cosmological scales.

Newtons Laws work fine for everything other than black holes and, to some extent, neutron stars.

If galaxies move farther and farther from each other, something is definitely haywire in Newton's law of universal gravitation.

Why would something be wrong?

Newton said that all objects attract all other objects...but he also said that "an object in motion will remain in motion". Galaxies that are moving apart don't just stop and start moving together due to gravity...they have an enormous momentum to overcome first :wink:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5720858 - 06/06/06 09:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
I think that any and all ideas should be looked at rationally.




How could we do that, when any tested ideas and concepts arrived at through application of rational thought are entirely dismissed by you as "speculation", "speculation", "speculation", "speculation"?




All we can really be sure of is how things work here, on planet Earth.

To believe that things work the same way all over creation is somewhat arrogant. We have only explored reality here, how can you be sure things will work the same way out there.......you cant.........that is the speculation that I am referring to.

We don't know how things work on a cosmic scale

Can we see things moving thru space and predict their movements :yesnod:
Can we explain...fully explain...how they came into being or what will happen to them in the distant future :noway:

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
We don't know enuf about our own planet, to think we have the whole of creation figured out.........virtually ANYTHING is possible.




If we are rooted in that much unknowing, then we have no means by which to come to the conclusion that "virtually ANYTHING is possible". I'm afraid you can't have it both ways...




Being so rooted in our ignorance, of how the universe as a system works, how can you claim that my original idea......or any idea that falls outside your world view,  ie: interstellar travel, aliens visiting earth......can not be true??????

Since we have no idea, what is going on with black holes.....my original idea has as much chance of being true as it does being false.

That is the point I keep trying to make.

We have only been studying our reality for a few thousand years. The universe has been around for so much longer, than what we have observed. To think that we have it all figured out is arrogance.

When people claim to know if something can or can not happen, based on the smallest glimpse of reality.....they have fooled themselves into believing their own lie.

I try to see the possibility in the unknown. That is how true knowledge comes to be. I try not to dismiss radical ideas as being foolish ignorance.

Just because I have never been visited by aliens.....doesn't mean that they haven't been here.

We don't know what is going on with black holes....therefore virtually ANYTHING is possible where they are concerned.


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
    #5721158 - 06/06/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:

Xanthas said:
(Newtons laws were modified by relativity, and are not directly used without such modifications any more.)





Newton's laws weren't modified, however the laws of universal gravitation were replaced by Einstein's GR. On a macroscopic level, all of Newton's laws apply to this Earth. On a cosmological and quantum level, however, the laws don't apply, modified or not. Einstein's laws, for the most part, do.




My apologies. His laws of motion were not modified. I was only speaking about relativity in relation to cosmological movements. Secondly, yes, his laws of motion apply on a cosmological level. Thirdly, neither of us knows what the fuck we're talking about when we start to speak of quantum mechanics. I'm just knowledgeable enough to know that we both, if trying to speak on QM, speak BS.

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:


Firstly, dark matter and dark energy are vastly different things.





They both apply to my post, your point being?




Nope. Firstly, dark matter is either composed of MACHO's or WIMP's (likely both). In both cases, the laws of motion apply. Dark energy is a force with seemingly negative pressure. It does not violate any known laws.

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:


Thirdly, quantum mechanics is affected by general relativity, we just don't know how yet. The scientific world is hard at work trying to figure just that out.




That may be, but how can you accept something as proof which hasn't even been proven yet? :crazy:




Proof of what?

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:


How does the red shifting of objects in space have anything to do with violating universal laws?

(Ever have something to say that is needed, but a bit too close to being a flame?




Chill the fuck out, first of all.  :smirk:

The redshift of an object can tell us the velocity, such as the direction of travel of a receeding galaxy. If galaxies move farther and farther from each other, something is definetly haywire in Newton's law of universal gravitation.




Quote:

Newton said:
Lex I: Corpus omne perseverare in statu suo quiescendi vel movendi uniformiter in directum, nisi quatenus a viribus impressis cogitur statum illum mutare.




"An object at rest or traveling in uniform motion will remain at rest or traveling in uniform motion unless acted upon by a net force."

Matter has inertia. Matter expands.
Matter has gravity. Matter collapses.
Inertia>gravity, matter expands.

What's haywire?


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5721209 - 06/06/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
To believe that things work the same way all over creation is somewhat arrogant. We have only explored reality here, how can you be sure things will work the same way out there.......you cant.........that is the speculation that I am referring to.




From my understanding, nothing, as it pertains to science, is "assumed to be true" unless it is repeatedly tested and demonstrated to be "true". It seems as though a lot of this "speculation" concerning gravity, thermodynamics, etc. etc. etc. falls into that category. :shrug:

I mean, if reality "over there" is to a different configuration than reality "over here", I don't understand how they could interact in any way. Unless we are to actually assume that light travels at different speeds in different zones of the universe....  :eek:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5721264 - 06/06/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Light (like sound) does travel at different speeds, depending on the medium it is traveling thru.

There are no absolutes........therefore we can never be 100% certain of anything.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5721538 - 06/07/06 12:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Imagine there was an Absolute Truth.
A model which you could apply to all things to extract True & False, without experimentation, just by simply applying the equation.
What then?

Well we'd be omniscient then wouldn't we?

Now what is stopping this from happening one day?
What if we found somekind of universal unifying theory that connected everything into a perfect harmony or chaos or whatever...

It is happening, all the time.
And what the Truth (or God) does to compensate for it, is he shifts the Absolute Truth. Which is to say that the Absolute Truth of All Things is actually something which is permeable or mutable, and in a state of transformation all the time.
Although we aren't going to notice that because we loop around the Sun about 100 times and that's it.
Our history is so insignificant in the universe that you cannot notice any sort of change in any variables whatsoever, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.

It is possible for a person to "travel" at the speed of light without any sort of space ship at all, just their body.
and when i say "travel" i don't mean moving from point A to point B, because at the core of reality there is no distance or direction at all.
also, there is no speed limit to light.

we can be 100% certain of things, but only for a certain amount of time. the way human beings are with sleeping patterns, and psychic interference, it is sort of impossible to be 100% certain all the time.
i think only God or the Son of God can do that.
Faith & Certainty seem like two proponents of each other.


Edited by Telepylus (06/07/06 12:54 AM)


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
    #5721663 - 06/07/06 01:20 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
Faith & Certainty seem like two proponents of each other.




Faith is belief without justification. Faith and certainty are polar opposites.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Xanthas]
    #5721721 - 06/07/06 01:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Faith turns into Certainty though.
And vice versa sometimes.
Faith can waiver.
And Certainty can turn to incertainty over time becoming another belief without justification.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5721900 - 06/07/06 03:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

great thread!

yes, black holes are a source of great power.

soon humanity will learn to harness this power for purposes of space travel, matter and energy generation, and a whole host of other cool crap.

personally, I can't wait. I just hope they are careful when they take the steps to get there, because generating a miniature black hole without being able to contain it properly would spell real bad news for the planet earth and most of the solar system. Kind of like absolute zero, this is not ground to be tread upon lightly or without care!


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
    #5722455 - 06/07/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:

It is possible for a person to "travel" at the speed of light without any sort of space ship at all, just their body.
and when i say "travel" i don't mean moving from point A to point B, because at the core of reality there is no distance or direction at all.
also, there is no speed limit to light.




Can you expanciate on this? I understand it relative to what I can to do in lucid dream time, speed of thought exceeds speed of light. I can think of a location and snap, I am there. Travel was much slower when I first started lucid dreaming. Now it's at snap speed.  How ever, you said its possible with the physical body too. What more do you know that can shed some light?

I think its possible. I don't think it will be a matter of breaking the laws of physics, more a matter of discovering laws that override them, or ways to slip out of this space/time fabric and into another where the laws are different and then you pop back in. This would be even faster then using worm holes.


Just ramble away on it or send it to my PM if you feel inspired to share more. I'm really interested to hear more of what you know. Thanks!

I'm open to listening to any ideas no matter how crazy they sound.

Hey Seuss or Tren,

Have either of you done any reading into white hole theories related to the post topic. I wish I still had some neat links I had saved on my old hard drive.

:peace: :heart:


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OfflineFospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Xanthas]
    #5722944 - 06/07/06 02:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:


Thirdly, quantum mechanics is affected by general relativity, we just don't know how yet. The scientific world is hard at work trying to figure just that out.




That may be, but how can you accept something as proof which hasn't even been proven yet? :crazy:




Proof of what?




Let me rephrase that. How can you say that QM is affected by GR without that being an actual fact? It's like using String Theory as an argument against something. Sure, it may be a general consensus, but in the end, that's all it is, a theory.

Quote:


Quote:

Fospher said:
The redshift of an object can tell us the velocity, such as the direction of travel of a receeding galaxy. If galaxies move farther and farther from each other, something is definetly haywire in Newton's law of universal gravitation.




Quote:

Newton said:
Lex I: Corpus omne perseverare in statu suo quiescendi vel movendi uniformiter in directum, nisi quatenus a viribus impressis cogitur statum illum mutare.




"An object at rest or traveling in uniform motion will remain at rest or traveling in uniform motion unless acted upon by a net force."

Matter has inertia. Matter expands.
Matter has gravity. Matter collapses.
Inertia>gravity, matter expands.

What's haywire?




The constant acceleration of an object with no net force acting on it.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
    #5723197 - 06/07/06 03:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'll try to elaborate in a way that is simple to understand.
Think about the Big Bang of Creation, or if you prefer, think about a Black Hole, that is sucking in Light into its tremendous gravity.
Or you can think of simply shrinking down a marble in the palm of your hand until it gets so small that it is a point, then you press it one step further so that the object turns Inside-Out.
This action spawns the Primordial Trinity of Force which is responsible for consciousness, on all levels.
And consciousness is built of nothing more than alternating Phi Ratio patterns.

Now it must be understood that our human ideas of time are mostly illusionary, like a dream.
We are floating motionless in space drifting through eternities.
Like you're motionless in bed dreaming you're running & turning.
The way this works is, we are connected to everything, since the Point of the Big Bang of Creation, or the Point you passed through the singularity, or the point where the atoms of the molecules of the cells of your body cling together upon your frame of Alternating Phi Ratio patterns.
U/R still connected to the Beginning & Ending of Time.

What this means is you have the power to transcend the entire known universe by virtue of the physical geometries of your own body.
And all that is required to operate this vehical is to understand it's shapes.
And the only way to comprehend the understanding fully is through tuning your heart to love all living things unconditionally.
God made it that way.
Love is that most tenuous force which works as a sort of gravity, but not a gravity produced by matter, it's a gravity that is produced by integrating specialized patterns of consciousness into your everyday life over time.

When it comes to highly advanced technologies like the atom bomb or perpetual motion machines, or activating the living MerKaBa, our ability to use these things is something ordained from above.
Wisdom has this way of protecting itself.

Free Energy machines are the perfect example.
Many have been invented, and you know what happens to the people who invent them?
They are threatened by other factions which are indeed too powerful to try to fight against.


Edited by Telepylus (06/07/06 05:06 PM)


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
    #5723307 - 06/07/06 03:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Let me rephrase that. How can you say that QM is affected by GR without that being an actual fact? It's like using String Theory as an argument against something. Sure, it may be a general consensus, but in the end, that's all it is, a theory.




Ahh, mayhap. I guess I'm simply biased against there being multiple rule sets for the universe, without a meta-rule set existing to be the rule as to when which is used. One must admit, though, that given the history of scientific development, it's not the worst bias one can have.

Quote:

Fospher said:
The constant acceleration of an object with no net force acting on it.




Cosmological constant would be a net force. Or Quintessence. Both are candidates for what is usually called "dark energy"


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5723586 - 06/07/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I just hope they are careful when they take the steps to get there, because generating a miniature black hole without being able to contain it properly would spell real bad news for the planet earth and most of the solar system.




DOOOOOOOD, I made a black hole two years ago, they only get stronger if you feed them.... 
The universe I created it in contains it quite nicely....!    :thumbup:


>^;;^<


--------------------
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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #5723698 - 06/07/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

A point of trivia: Russian scientists use the term Frozen Star rather than Black Hole. The reason is because, in Russian, the phrase "black hole" is an obscenity.

I'll leave the rest to your imagination.  :tongue:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
Female User Gallery

Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
    #5723800 - 06/07/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for replying! Good light body vehicle stuff.  :thumbup: Wish it was in MR&P. I was wondering more what you had on , oh never mind.  :smile:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 13 days
Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Diploid]
    #5723808 - 06/07/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Stars drink too much vodka and suffer from rot? :shocked:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibledorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
Posts: 1,511
Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
    #5723957 - 06/07/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'll try to elaborate in a way that is simple to understand.
Think about the Big Bang of Creation, or if you prefer, think about a Black Hole, that is sucking in Light into its tremendous gravity.
Or you can think of simply shrinking down a marble in the palm of your hand until it gets so small that it is a point, then you press it one step further so that the object turns Inside-Out.
This action spawns the Primordial Trinity of Force which is responsible for consciousness, on all levels.
And consciousness is built of nothing more than alternating Phi Ratio patterns.

Now it must be understood that our human ideas of time are mostly illusionary, like a dream.
We are floating motionless in space drifting through eternities.
Like you're motionless in bed dreaming you're running & turning.
The way this works is, we are connected to everything, since the Point of the Big Bang of Creation, or the Point you passed through the singularity, or the point where the atoms of the molecules of the cells of your body cling together upon your frame of Alternating Phi Ratio patterns.
U/R still connected to the Beginning & Ending of Time.


That is pure gold, man. I actually had to paste it into my own journal. You worded it so well. I've been thinking alot about this stuff this year.

Excellente.


Edited by dr_mandelbrot (06/07/06 07:00 PM)


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InvisibletrendalM
J♠
Male User Gallery

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada Flag
Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5754072 - 06/15/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Have either of you done any reading into white hole theories related to the post topic. I wish I still had some neat links I had saved on my old hard drive.




I read about the white-hole theories a long time ago, and my understanding is that they are not accepted as fact (or anything approaching fact) any longer.

The idea, as I recall, was that matter falling into a black hole has to go somewhere as the Laws of Thermodynamics prevent it from simply "disappearing".

The confusion came from our ideas of what matter is, as well as our entire concept of location and movement. The matter falling into a black hole does not have to "go" anywhere at all - it's already somewhere (inside the black hole). The motion bit is a little harder to explain, but suffice it to say that matter doesn't have to "move" inside a black hole - once it reaches the event horizon "movement" ceases to make any logical sense.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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