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Invisibleniteowl
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Perpetual Motion
    #5710465 - 06/04/06 08:20 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

While reading Huehuecoyotls post, One River, I was reminded of an idea I've had, for some time now.

Bear with me.

From what we know about galaxy formation, some galaxies have black holes at their core.

This is M51, The Whirlpool Galaxy.

It's a spiral galaxy, seen face on.. One of the kind of galaxys, they are finding black holes in.


Some black holes "jet" material out their poles.

This is a spiral galaxy seen edge on.

The blue streaks show x-rays

What if these black holes, are jetting basic sub atomic particles, (galactic stem cells) back into space, to settle into the galaxy, to start the whole system over again.

That could be why some galaxies have very dark dust lanes. Ones whose central singularity recently vented, and the dust is starting to settle down into the galaxy.

The ones that appear relatively dust free, are the ones that are getting ready to vent.

Gods own perpetual motion/energy/life system????


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5710468 - 06/04/06 08:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"

:lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5714086 - 06/05/06 07:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
"In this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!"




So, since we understand how things work around this star system, we instantly assume that these laws are universal.

These may only be local laws.

Systems with radically different star and planet systems may not act the way you expect them too.

Black holes are one of the biggest mysteries.

What are they?
Why do some seem to eject material?
How long have they been around?
What causes them?

Virtually every thing, we think we know, is based on assumptions.

Do we know what temperature water freezes at here.....:yesnod:
Do we know how water freezes around some vastly different solar system....:noway:

It is just an assumption based on very limited knowledge.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5714118 - 06/05/06 07:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

That assumption - that the laws of physics are universal - is a fundamental requirement of modern physics.

Further, nothing we have detected in the way of EM radiation has lead us to believe that the laws of physics should be any different at different points in the universe. The light coming from distant stars behaves exactly the same way as the light coming from our sun (or from a light source here on Earth). If the laws of physics were different at other points in the universe, we would expect to see it as such by the light coming from those areas.

We don't, so it is a safe assumption that the laws of physics are the same everywhere.

As for black holes...they are actually understood a lot better than you seem to think.

What are they?

Stars that have collapsed beyond their Schwarzschild radius.

Why do some seem to eject material?

The material isn't ejected from within the black hole itself. It is shot away at incredible speeds from the area surrounding the black hole. Essentially, the material being drawn into the black hole can be accelerated so fast that it will "miss" the black hole and be flung off into space.

How long have they been around?

The first black holes could have formed after the first generation of stars began to near the end of their lives.

What causes them?

Collapsing stars.


--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5714124 - 06/05/06 07:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Do we know what temperature water freezes at here.....:yesnod:
Do we know how water freezes around some vastly different solar system....:noway:




So you claim that the basic physical laws of entropy and thermodynamics are different depending upon geographic (in a universal sense) location?  Newton has gotta be rolling grave...


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Seuss]
    #5714136 - 06/05/06 07:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

All I'm really saying is, we can never truly know what is happening, on a cosmic scale.

Virtually every time we turn around, we are discovering things, that make us re-think how our world works.

And that is, really, all we can do.
Understand this world.

Everything else is speculation.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5714274 - 06/05/06 09:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> All I'm really saying is, we can never truly know what is happening, on a cosmic scale.

That, I can accept. It is amazing how much we think we know versus how much we really have no clue about.

Edit: We being mankind in general.


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Just another spore in the wind.


Edited by Seuss (06/05/06 09:26 AM)


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Seuss]
    #5715058 - 06/05/06 01:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

makes perfect sense nightowl

also, the singularity itself is basically the exact same force in the universe as Christ.


as for ideas of entropy and thermodynamics-
it means nothing

it is true in this House we must obey the law of thermodynamics.
but there are other dimensions you can move through to pass by any law, like breaking the speed of light, or anything you can think of

by nature the universe is not so rigid
if it were, it would break


you can look at that picture of the galaxy with the blue x rays spewing out.
that is also what the tiniest sub-atomic field looks like.
the fabric of the universe is like endless tiny black hole lookin' thingys

when did Newton live? man it had to be 1500 or earlier wasn't it?
i think it's about time he does some rollin' in his grave.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5715739 - 06/05/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I was simply referring to an episode of the Simpsons. :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
    #5716159 - 06/05/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
also, the singularity itself is basically the exact same force in the universe as Christ.




Nope. The singularity is the point at which the neutron degenerancy pressure is at such a point that, due to the Pauli exclusion principle, the neutrons would have to be moving at a speed in excess of the speed of light. Since such a thing is not possible by our standard models of physics, we are unable to predict what happens to the object, only define its properties as it relates to the "outside" universe.

So far as I am aware, when the pressure increases to such a point, and neutron degenerancy pressure is no longer enough to hold the star together, there is no barrier to infinite collapse, and all the matter contracts into a singular non-dimensional point, thus creating a space in which the mass/volume is essentially a place where the universe is trying to divide by zero. Such makes the singularity mathematically impossible, and weird as hell.

Quote:

Telepylus said:
as for ideas of entropy and thermodynamics-
it means nothing

it is true in this House we must obey the law of thermodynamics.
but there are other dimensions you can move through to pass by any law, like breaking the speed of light, or anything you can think of

by nature the universe is not so rigid
if it were, it would break




Wrong, unfounded and meaningless.

At least, if you trust any human knowledge that has been found to be more reliable then Brownian motion.

Wrong-> Entropy and thermodynamics are statistical laws. Violation is possible, but, by definition, really^very^12^19 improbable.

Unfounded-> Quite simply, your concept of dimensional travel relies upon fantasy notions of dimension.

Meaningless-> Who says the universe would break? The laws we have created are mathematical models of the behavior of the universe. We may amend our math, but there's never been any suggestion that the universe behaves in a manner other then the way the universe behaves. In fact, such a concept is rather nonsensical. (I do believe I wrote universe a lot in that sentence. Universe.)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
you can look at that picture of the galaxy with the blue x rays spewing out.
that is also what the tiniest sub-atomic field looks like.
the fabric of the universe is like endless tiny black hole lookin' thingys




Nope(sub)1, nope(sub)2 and (wtf?)

Nope(sub)1-> That pic is a false-color photograph. Human eyes cannot see x-rays, and therefore cannot see blue x-rays. Blue is a property of the portion of the EM spectrum with a wavelength twixt 420–490 nanometers.

Nope(sub)2-> A sub-atomic field has something to do with quantum field theory, which neither you, nor I, understand. I do, however, know this much: One cannot look at a sub-atomic field, and saying, even that is has a "look" as it corresponds to our existence is at the least misleading, and at the most completely ignorant garbage.

(wtf?)->
Quote:

Telepylus said:the fabric of the universe is like endless tiny black hole lookin' thingys




Quote:

Telepylus said:
when did Newton live? man it had to be 1500 or earlier wasn't it?
i think it's about time he does some rollin' in his grave.




4 January 1643 – 31 March 1727

Roll dead genius, roll.


Edited by Xanthas (06/05/06 06:55 PM)


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5716184 - 06/05/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
I was simply referring to an episode of the Simpsons. :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Quote:

Lisa Simpson said:
Grade me, GRADE ME!




Edited by Xanthas (06/05/06 07:03 PM)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: trendal]
    #5716341 - 06/05/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
As for black holes...they are actually understood a lot better than you seem to think.

What are they?

Stars that have collapsed beyond their Schwarzschild radius.




So these black holes could not be primal. A part of the universe that has been here since the big bang. Driving the formation of galaxies.

I guess we have actually studied them up close and seen a star actually collapse into a singularity......or is it just speculation?


Quote:

Why do some seem to eject material?

The material isn't ejected from within the black hole itself. It is shot away at incredible speeds from the area surrounding the black hole. Essentially, the material being drawn into the black hole can be accelerated so fast that it will "miss" the black hole and be flung off into space.




More speculation


Quote:

How long have they been around?

The first black holes could have formed after the first generation of stars began to near the end of their lives.




Speculation

Quote:

What causes them?

Collapsing stars.




Please prove.....beyond a shadow of a doubt, all these things you believe.

You cant. I cant. No one can.

We are just shooting in the dark, guessing about these things.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5716442 - 06/05/06 08:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Please prove.....beyond a shadow of a doubt, all these things you believe.

You cant. I cant. No one can.

We are just shooting in the dark, guessing about these things.




Please prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you exist.

You can't. I can't. No one can.

We are just shooting in the dark, guessing about these things.




However, we can make logical conclusions based upon the universe we observe, if we assign the existence of the universe itself primacy. From that point on, we can 1)observe, 2)hypothesize, 3)predict, 4)test, and 5)conclude, repeating any/all steps as necessary.

From that process, which is the same process which brought you your house, electricity, this forum, all of life-as-we-know-it, we can conclude the existence of an object which corresponds with our present understanding of the universe, which we call a black hole.




On another point- The radiation "emitted" from a black hole actually takes two forms. The first is UV radiation, usually in the form of x-rays, which are radiated due to the massive increase in heat from the contraction of gas around a black hole. The second, so-called hawking radiation, is given off when virtual particle-antiparticle pairs are formed near a black hole. As one particle may fall into a black hole, it would gain negative energy due to its loss of gravitational potential energy, while the other particle would be flung out with positive energy.

The negative energy would be combined with the black hole's total energy, and thus total mass, decreasing it.



Quote:

niteowl said:
So these black holes could not be primal. A part of the universe that has been here since the big bang. Driving the formation of galaxies.




A possibility, but not one which detracts from the theory of black hole formation due to collapsing supermassive stars.


Edited by Xanthas (06/05/06 08:08 PM)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Xanthas]
    #5716516 - 06/05/06 08:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
So these black holes could not be primal. A part of the universe that has been here since the big bang. Driving the formation of galaxies.




A possibility, but not one which detracts from the theory of black hole formation due to collapsing supermassive stars.




There is no evidence that stars collapse into black holes.......only speculation.

"We think thats the way it is.....so it must be true"  :rolleyes:


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5716544 - 06/05/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

lol xanthas


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
    #5716701 - 06/05/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

Xanthas said:
Quote:

niteowl said:
So these black holes could not be primal. A part of the universe that has been here since the big bang. Driving the formation of galaxies.




A possibility, but not one which detracts from the theory of black hole formation due to collapsing supermassive stars.




There is no evidence that stars collapse into black holes.......only speculation.

"We think thats the way it is.....so it must be true"  :rolleyes:




There is no evidence that stars exist outside our solar system. Or, for that matter, inside our solar system. Only speculation based upon logical conjecture.

My, and my guess is, your, grounds for believing that there is an external reality are even shakier. Hell, the principle of induction is self-referential.

Quote:

Telepylus said:
lol xanthas




Why?


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Offlinesparks8
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Xanthas]
    #5717498 - 06/06/06 12:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yea we dont know shit. i read somewhere once that most of the universe is made up of shit we cant see or messure, dark matter or some shit. its basicly just a theroy to support our current beliefs of why the universe is expanding. seems a vicious circle.


Edited by sparks8 (06/06/06 12:03 AM)


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Invisibledorkus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: sparks8]
    #5717516 - 06/06/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I read in New Scientist a couple days back where they were reviewing this book presenting a theory of the whole system being just one big fractal. :wink: Think the issue was from 03 or something, but can't remember the edition. Anyway they claimed that this theory could explain the whole dark matter stuff if it was right.

Also the same magazine had more information on dark matter. They claimed that due to our current gravitational laws galaxies would collapse, they couldn't possibly be held together as they are now.

They seemed to speculate in black holes as some sort of interdimensional birthing channels.

Heheh. I don't remember much of it, but interesting stuff nontheless.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: dorkus]
    #5717651 - 06/06/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Very interesting ideas.

I think that any and all ideas should be looked at rationally.

As we understand, the universe will either fade into nothing, or collapse into a big crunch........depending on how we work the numbers.

If we are guessing at the starting numbers, and continue to tweek the equation, to make it fit our POV.......the equation works.

Math is strange that way.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
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OfflineFospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Xanthas]
    #5717774 - 06/06/06 01:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:

Quote:

niteowl said:
So these black holes could not be primal. A part of the universe that has been here since the big bang. Driving the formation of galaxies.




A possibility, but not one which detracts from the theory of black hole formation due to collapsing supermassive stars.

There is no evidence that stars collapse into black holes.......only speculation.

There is no evidence that stars exist outside our solar system. Or, for that matter, inside our solar system. Only speculation based upon logical conjecture.




Are you saying the existence of the sun is a mere speculation?

:lol:

The fact that we know it's speed of rotation, it's chemical makeup, the effects of it's solar flares on aurora borealis aren't just shots in the dark, they are proven facts.

In fact, not only do we know our sun, we have information on stars millions of light years away, and not on just their position, but their age, their temperature, and their makeup.

Think about this: You are studying the makeup of the human race. Instead of studying a baby grow old into an old man, you could instead go to, New York, a large collection of humans in a small spot, and study babies, adolescents, adults, and the elderly, putting together a report of how a baby turns into an old man.

Think of a star cluster as "New York". And in our case, we do not only have "New York", but plenty of other cities, and even clusters of galaxies to make these observations. And while we may not know what is happening inside the singularity point of a black hole, we've got the general grasp on the universe.

And whoever said that the universe is made up of millions of "black hole thingies", might not have had the literal knowledge on Astronomy, but had the general idea. There's a fine line between the Subatomic Realm and the Astronomic.


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