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Fospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
#5717796 - 06/06/06 02:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said: As we understand, the universe will either fade into nothing, or collapse into a big crunch........depending on how we work the numbers.
It's doing neither. If you follow Newton's Laws, the inertia of our universe will eventually slow down to a halt and our universe will run out of energy that it has gotten from the Big Bang.
However! While Newton's Laws work great for on Earth, they don't apply in cosmological sizes of the universe. Everything instead is actually speeding up away from each other, with greater and greater speed.
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Telepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
#5717812 - 06/06/06 02:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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if you take a telescope and aim it outward into space you're going to see spiral galaxy thingys. and if you aim the telescope at your hand (microscope) eventually you will see little tiny galaxy lookin' thingys inside there too.
i don't think it's that hard to understand what is happening at the singularity, or the zero point. and i don't think it's hard to make a correlation to christ either.
you can see it like this. a whirlpool of water going down a drain. on the surface of the water is a bunch of ink, colors, like in the pattern of the world, all blue and green and brown, with white clouds.
it will swirl and swirl and mix up into spirals and mix together and get sucked down the hole into the singularity, where everything is sort of basically destroyed, or forced into ONE and nothing.
then what happens? well, if the ink has some virtue of love or integrity to remain whole, this means that when the ink comes spiraling out the otherside of the drain, it's going to reform the EXACT same patterns of blue and green and brown and white that we set in the beginning.
(ok, so it's not a drain, it's a centrifugal whirlpool created in outerspace, you get the idea)
that is what the christ/eternity machine works and that is what a black hole singularity thingy does
it doesn't take an astrophysicist to understand what the singularity is, it's something a little child can understand. alot like ABC's.
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Fospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
#5717826 - 06/06/06 02:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
if you take a telescope and aim it outward into space you're going to see spiral galaxy thingys. and if you aim the telescope at your hand (microscope) eventually you will see little tiny galaxy lookin' thingys inside there too.

Hahaha, well, no. Like I said, you've got an 'idea', but really don't know what's going on at all.
Reading's your friend!
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niteowl
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
#5717856 - 06/06/06 02:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fospher said:
Quote:
niteowl said: As we understand, the universe will either fade into nothing, or collapse into a big crunch........depending on how we work the numbers.
It's doing neither. If you follow Newton's Laws, the inertia of our universe will eventually slow down to a halt and our universe will run out of energy that it has gotten from the Big Bang.
That is the "fade into nothing" ending of our galaxy.
Quote:
However! While Newton's Laws work great for on Earth, they don't apply in cosmological sizes of the universe. Everything instead is actually speeding up away from each other, with greater and greater speed.
Not all galaxies are running away from each other. Galaxy collision is said to occur. The Milky Way and the Andromeda galaxy are supposed to collide in the distant future.
We dont know enuf about our own planet, to think we have the whole of creation figured out.........virtually ANYTHING is possible.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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fireworks_god
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
#5718276 - 06/06/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said: I think that any and all ideas should be looked at rationally.
How could we do that, when any tested ideas and concepts arrived at through application of rational thought are entirely dismissed by you as "speculation", "speculation", "speculation", "speculation"?

 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
#5718285 - 06/06/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said: We dont know enuf about our own planet, to think we have the whole of creation figured out.........virtually ANYTHING is possible.
If we are rooted in that much unknowing, then we have no means by which to come to the conclusion that "virtually ANYTHING is possible". I'm afraid you can't have it both ways...
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Seuss
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
#5718330 - 06/06/06 09:35 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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> If you follow Newton's Laws, the inertia of our universe will eventually slow down to a halt
Ah yes, Newton's 1st law... an object in motion tends to stay in motion, but a universe in motion tends to eventually slow down and halt.
> and our universe will run out of energy
I keep forgetting that energy can be created and destroyed. Silly me.
> While Newton's Laws work great for on Earth, they don't apply in cosmological sizes of the universe.
They don't? Guess we need to go out and rewrite all the physic books. By definition, a physical law, such as Newton's laws, are "universal". They appear to apply everywhere in the universe. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_laws
> Everything instead is actually speeding up away from each other, with greater and greater speed.
This is known as acceleration.
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dblaney
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Seuss]
#5718358 - 06/06/06 09:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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They don't? Guess we need to go out and rewrite all the physic books. By definition, a physical law, such as Newton's laws, are "universal". They appear to apply everywhere in the universe
I know Einstein's General Theory of Relativity doesn't apply on a quantum scale, do you know if Newton's laws do?
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Fospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Seuss]
#5718750 - 06/06/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Please, sir, can I have some more sarcasm?
Quote:
Seuss said:
> and our universe will run out of energy
I keep forgetting that energy can be created and destroyed. Silly me.
Kinetic will convert into potential energy, and once the universe has no more inertia, it will freeze over and come to a halt. According to Newton, all the Galaxies will eventually come together pulled by gravity, eventually having all of it's movement converted into PE. Sorry I forgot to include a textbook defintion with every description.
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> While Newton's Laws work great for on Earth, they don't apply in cosmological sizes of the universe.
They don't? Guess we need to go out and rewrite all the physic books. By definition, a physical law, such as Newton's laws, are "universal". They appear to apply everywhere in the universe. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_laws
Oh, everywhere? They even take into account dark matter and dark energy, and the fact that this unseen substance makes up for 90% of the universe? Oops, guess it doesn't work there. How about quantum mechanics, where almost no laws of Newton apply, and can also break the law of casualty? Or the acceleration (boy, thanks for the vocabulary help!!!1) of the universe noted by the Doppler redshift?
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Telepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
#5718811 - 06/06/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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the ultimate solution unifying all phenomenon is already documented and available to anyone ready to receive it. the only real mystery remaining is how and why it keeps itself so well concealed from the world.
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Xanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
#5719712 - 06/06/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fospher said: Oh, everywhere? They even take into account dark matter and dark energy, and the fact that this unseen substance makes up for 90% of the universe? Oops, guess it doesn't work there. How about quantum mechanics, where almost no laws of Newton apply, and can also break the law of casualty? Or the acceleration (boy, thanks for the vocabulary help!!!1) of the universe noted by the Doppler redshift?
(Newtons laws were modified by relativity, and are not directly used without such modifications any more.)
Firstly, dark matter and dark energy are vastly different things. Secondly, yes, General relativity affects (or rather, interacts with) them. General relativity affects (interacts with) everything. Thirdly, quantum mechanics is affected by general relativity, we just don't know how yet. The scientific world is hard at work trying to figure just that out. How does the red shifting of objects in space have anything to do with violating universal laws?
(Ever have something to say that is needed, but a bit too close to being a flame?
All I can say is, this discussion needs to be educated. It would take way too long to point out all the flaws in nearly every post. I suggest that everyone buy and read a bunch of high school textbooks. Namely, physics, biology, astronomy, and possibly chemistry. If nothing else, Wikipedia is your friend.)
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
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Xanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
#5719715 - 06/06/06 04:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Telepylus said: the ultimate solution unifying all phenomenon is already documented and available to anyone ready to receive it. the only real mystery remaining is how and why it keeps itself so well concealed from the world.
...What?
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
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Fospher
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Xanthas]
#5719809 - 06/06/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Xanthas said: (Newtons laws were modified by relativity, and are not directly used without such modifications any more.)
Newton's laws weren't modified, however the laws of universal gravitation were replaced by Einstein's GR. On a macroscopic level, all of Newton's laws apply to this Earth. On a cosmological and quantum level, however, the laws don't apply, modified or not. Einstein's laws, for the most part, do.
Quote:
Firstly, dark matter and dark energy are vastly different things.
They both apply to my post, your point being?
Quote:
Secondly, yes, General relativity affects (or rather0, interacts with) them. General relativity affects (interacts with) everything.
Yes! ...but I wasn't saying that GR doesn't.
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Thirdly, quantum mechanics is affected by general relativity, we just don't know how yet. The scientific world is hard at work trying to figure just that out.
That may be, but how can you accept something as proof which hasn't even been proven yet? 
Quote:
How does the red shifting of objects in space have anything to do with violating universal laws?
(Ever have something to say that is needed, but a bit too close to being a flame?
Chill the fuck out, first of all. 
The redshift of an object can tell us the velocity, such as the direction of travel of a receeding galaxy. If galaxies move farther and farther from each other, something is definetly haywire in Newton's law of universal gravitation.
Quote:
All I can say is, this discussion needs to be educated. It would take way too long to point out all the flaws in nearly every post
Such as your brand spanking new, modified laws of Newton?
Edited by Fospher (06/06/06 05:27 PM)
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trendal
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Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
#5719976 - 06/06/06 05:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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On a macroscopic level, all of Newton's laws apply to this Earth. On a cosmological and quantum level, however, the laws don't apply, modified or not.
Actually they do apply - it is only in cases of extreme gravity that we have to use GR. Newton's Laws are a nearly perfect approximation and work quite well even on cosmological scales.
Newtons Laws work fine for everything other than black holes and, to some extent, neutron stars.
If galaxies move farther and farther from each other, something is definitely haywire in Newton's law of universal gravitation.
Why would something be wrong?
Newton said that all objects attract all other objects...but he also said that "an object in motion will remain in motion". Galaxies that are moving apart don't just stop and start moving together due to gravity...they have an enormous momentum to overcome first
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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niteowl
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
niteowl said: I think that any and all ideas should be looked at rationally.
How could we do that, when any tested ideas and concepts arrived at through application of rational thought are entirely dismissed by you as "speculation", "speculation", "speculation", "speculation"?
All we can really be sure of is how things work here, on planet Earth.
To believe that things work the same way all over creation is somewhat arrogant. We have only explored reality here, how can you be sure things will work the same way out there.......you cant.........that is the speculation that I am referring to.
We don't know how things work on a cosmic scale
Can we see things moving thru space and predict their movements  Can we explain...fully explain...how they came into being or what will happen to them in the distant future 
Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
niteowl said: We don't know enuf about our own planet, to think we have the whole of creation figured out.........virtually ANYTHING is possible.
If we are rooted in that much unknowing, then we have no means by which to come to the conclusion that "virtually ANYTHING is possible". I'm afraid you can't have it both ways...
Being so rooted in our ignorance, of how the universe as a system works, how can you claim that my original idea......or any idea that falls outside your world view, ie: interstellar travel, aliens visiting earth......can not be true??????
Since we have no idea, what is going on with black holes.....my original idea has as much chance of being true as it does being false.
That is the point I keep trying to make.
We have only been studying our reality for a few thousand years. The universe has been around for so much longer, than what we have observed. To think that we have it all figured out is arrogance.
When people claim to know if something can or can not happen, based on the smallest glimpse of reality.....they have fooled themselves into believing their own lie.
I try to see the possibility in the unknown. That is how true knowledge comes to be. I try not to dismiss radical ideas as being foolish ignorance.
Just because I have never been visited by aliens.....doesn't mean that they haven't been here.
We don't know what is going on with black holes....therefore virtually ANYTHING is possible where they are concerned.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Xanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Fospher]
#5721158 - 06/06/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Fospher said:
Quote:
Xanthas said: (Newtons laws were modified by relativity, and are not directly used without such modifications any more.)
Newton's laws weren't modified, however the laws of universal gravitation were replaced by Einstein's GR. On a macroscopic level, all of Newton's laws apply to this Earth. On a cosmological and quantum level, however, the laws don't apply, modified or not. Einstein's laws, for the most part, do.
My apologies. His laws of motion were not modified. I was only speaking about relativity in relation to cosmological movements. Secondly, yes, his laws of motion apply on a cosmological level. Thirdly, neither of us knows what the fuck we're talking about when we start to speak of quantum mechanics. I'm just knowledgeable enough to know that we both, if trying to speak on QM, speak BS.
Quote:
Fospher said:
Quote:
Firstly, dark matter and dark energy are vastly different things.
They both apply to my post, your point being?
Nope. Firstly, dark matter is either composed of MACHO's or WIMP's (likely both). In both cases, the laws of motion apply. Dark energy is a force with seemingly negative pressure. It does not violate any known laws.
Quote:
Fospher said:
Quote:
Thirdly, quantum mechanics is affected by general relativity, we just don't know how yet. The scientific world is hard at work trying to figure just that out.
That may be, but how can you accept something as proof which hasn't even been proven yet? 
Proof of what?
Quote:
Fospher said:
Quote:
How does the red shifting of objects in space have anything to do with violating universal laws?
(Ever have something to say that is needed, but a bit too close to being a flame?
Chill the fuck out, first of all. 
The redshift of an object can tell us the velocity, such as the direction of travel of a receeding galaxy. If galaxies move farther and farther from each other, something is definetly haywire in Newton's law of universal gravitation.
Quote:
Newton said: Lex I: Corpus omne perseverare in statu suo quiescendi vel movendi uniformiter in directum, nisi quatenus a viribus impressis cogitur statum illum mutare.
"An object at rest or traveling in uniform motion will remain at rest or traveling in uniform motion unless acted upon by a net force."
Matter has inertia. Matter expands. Matter has gravity. Matter collapses. Inertia>gravity, matter expands.
What's haywire?
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
#5721209 - 06/06/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
niteowl said: To believe that things work the same way all over creation is somewhat arrogant. We have only explored reality here, how can you be sure things will work the same way out there.......you cant.........that is the speculation that I am referring to.
From my understanding, nothing, as it pertains to science, is "assumed to be true" unless it is repeatedly tested and demonstrated to be "true". It seems as though a lot of this "speculation" concerning gravity, thermodynamics, etc. etc. etc. falls into that category. 
I mean, if reality "over there" is to a different configuration than reality "over here", I don't understand how they could interact in any way. Unless we are to actually assume that light travels at different speeds in different zones of the universe.... 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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niteowl
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Light (like sound) does travel at different speeds, depending on the medium it is traveling thru.
There are no absolutes........therefore we can never be 100% certain of anything.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Telepylus
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: niteowl]
#5721538 - 06/07/06 12:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Imagine there was an Absolute Truth. A model which you could apply to all things to extract True & False, without experimentation, just by simply applying the equation. What then?
Well we'd be omniscient then wouldn't we?
Now what is stopping this from happening one day? What if we found somekind of universal unifying theory that connected everything into a perfect harmony or chaos or whatever...
It is happening, all the time. And what the Truth (or God) does to compensate for it, is he shifts the Absolute Truth. Which is to say that the Absolute Truth of All Things is actually something which is permeable or mutable, and in a state of transformation all the time. Although we aren't going to notice that because we loop around the Sun about 100 times and that's it. Our history is so insignificant in the universe that you cannot notice any sort of change in any variables whatsoever, but that doesn't mean it's not happening.
It is possible for a person to "travel" at the speed of light without any sort of space ship at all, just their body. and when i say "travel" i don't mean moving from point A to point B, because at the core of reality there is no distance or direction at all. also, there is no speed limit to light.
we can be 100% certain of things, but only for a certain amount of time. the way human beings are with sleeping patterns, and psychic interference, it is sort of impossible to be 100% certain all the time. i think only God or the Son of God can do that. Faith & Certainty seem like two proponents of each other.
Edited by Telepylus (06/07/06 12:54 AM)
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Xanthas
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Re: Perpetual Motion [Re: Telepylus]
#5721663 - 06/07/06 01:20 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Telepylus said: Faith & Certainty seem like two proponents of each other.
Faith is belief without justification. Faith and certainty are polar opposites.
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
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