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Perpetual Motion................
    #7634436 -

It is said that perpetual motion is not possible - as we know it....
At least, no one has been able to demonstrate it.....

Would/could an atom be considered a perpetual motion machine with inherent mutable properties....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Perpetual Motion................ [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7634534 -

How are you viewing the atom, as a bunch of particles interacting or as a bunch of probabilities?


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Perpetual Motion................ [Re: Seuss]
    #7635241 -

I think the only thing that can be perpetual is existance itself. All the dimensions and fearthest reaches of the universe and tiniest atom will work in synch and exhibit perpetual motion. Thing will be moved and transfered but never created. Perpetual motion is like = 1. To create another form of perpetual motion inside of that.. i dunno? Can you? like 1 + 1 = 2. 2 would be something else. Like the universe would collapse on itself or something.


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Flowing through beginningless time since time without beginning...

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Re: Perpetual Motion................ [Re: Seuss]
    #7635973 -

Seuss said:
How are you viewing the atom, as a bunch of particles interacting or as a bunch of probabilities?


I honestly don't know how to view an atom myself - nor have I seen an actual slice of an atom....
....but I understand the very basic visual model, and understand that it is just a model for demonstrational purposes....

Can a bunch of probabilities be considered a perpetual motion machine....?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Perpetual Motion................ [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7636094 -

Atoms aren't like wheels on bearings.

A bearing slowly dissipates the energy of the wheel by converting it's kinetic energy to heat through friction in the bearing. That heat energy then moves to the air and support structure around the bearing and the wheel looses it forever.

The electrons near an atom's nucleus do not have bearings or experience friction. That's why they're not examples of perpetual motion. They're at equilibrium.

A perpetual motion machine would have to PRODUCE energy ex nihilo because of the requirement to compensate for bearing losses.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Perpetual Motion................ [Re: Diploid]
    #7636265 -

Yeah, I know all of that....    :thumbup:    I understand that the atomic model isn't the way things really are, maybe.... 
Maybe my misunderstanding was the definition of a "perpetual motion machine".... 

This is what I way pondering.....
In my mind I was constructing a "super atom" (in theory only - it most likely isn't possible),
by clumping a large amount of protons and neutrons together,
then clumping a bunch of electrons together - orbiting the rather large nucleus....
In essence, making a Super-sized Mc-Atom - like the size of a marble or something....    :grin:

OR, the way I see it, if we make a room that disables the universes expansion properties, and sit in it for a while,
a few hours later, atoms would be the size of basketballs...!    :lol:
Then we could see what the hell they actually look like - IF there is anything to see at all....
I figured that once I get all of that accomplished, I could say that I invented a perpetual motion machine, and show the large atom....!    :muppet:

OK, maybe not....    :tongue:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Perpetual Motion................ [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7636362 -

Well, the problem is that you're thinking of subatomic 'particles' as if they were very tiny billiard balls. They don't work that way.

If you could enlarge an electron using your hypothetical expansion room, you would still be unable to demonstrate perpetual motion because electrons do not have positions until they're observed. There is only a probability for every point in space that when you do make the observation, it will be found at that point.

Once you finally do observe them, then they have no momentum. This is due to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Since your observations can give you only the position OR the momentum, you can't demonstrate perpetual motion. Both are required to satisfy the demonstration.

If subatomic 'particles' were like tiny billiard balls, then yes, your thought experiment would work. Unfortunately, they're not.

The word 'particle' is really an unfortunate happenstance of history. It's lead many people into misunderstanding them. A better name for them might be 'subatomic likelihoods'.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Perpetual Motion................ [Re: Diploid]
    #7636373 -

'subatomic likelihood'.
 That's about as much chance as I have of getting rich.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Perpetual Motion................ [Re: Diploid]
    #7636529 -

It is difficult to think that way (without there being solid particles) - because when you look at something solid like a tabletop, you think of it as being solid to the core....
I KNOW particles don't work that way, I hear the words, I say I understand, and then off I go explaining billiard balls again....!    :lol:

I should finish that subatomic particles lectures, I only got 1/4 the way thru before switching over the the general relativity course....    :smirk:
My bad....  :grin:


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: Perpetual Motion................ [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7636622 -

It is difficult to think that way (without there being solid particles) - because when you look at something solid like a tabletop, you think of it as being solid to the core....

Yeah. This works in our macro world because the bigger something is, the more all the likelihoods sum to a near-certainty. You see a table and it seems to certainly be there.

But the smaller things get, the less and less this certainty is true because instead if a huge conglomeration of likelihoods with most of them pointing the same way summing to near certainty, you're looking at a smaller and smaller piece of the total pie.

Think of it this way:

If you flip a coin 100 times, the total will be close to 50 head and 50 tail. Say that in your particular set of flips, you end up with 51 head and 49 tail.

That's well within normal variation and the result is about what you would expect, only a 1% shift from the theoretical expectation.

Now in a new experiment flip the coin only twice. Say that it landed heads both times. WOW! That's a 200% variation from theoretical expectation! AMAZING!

Not really. The smaller the sample size the more likely you'll have large variation. The larger the sample size, the more likely your result will align with expectations.

This works the same way for matter. The bigger the chunk, the more confidence you can have that it is where you think it is. The smaller the chunk, the more likely it is that the small sample size will give you a large variation in its position.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Perpetual Motion................ [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #7636907 -

Perpetual motion will require zero gravity and magnets. Use solar energy to power a magnetically charged field that oscillates polarities to push a turbine that powers the oscillation.

But I think a prereq to perpetual motion is that there can't be any initial energy expenditures.


--------------------
Give me silence, water, hope;
Give me struggle, iron, volcanoes...

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