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Invisibledistortopia
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Registered: 04/01/04
Posts: 37
The approaching revolution in particle physics
    #2762679 - 06/04/04 11:05 AM (13 years, 3 months ago)

An approaching revolution in the understanding of the most basic physical laws governing the Universe will bring some 600 physicists and engineers to an intensive two-week workshop in Snowmass, Colorado, US from 14 to 27 August. The global particle physics community has proposed designing and building a new particle accelerator, the International Linear Collider (ILC). The ILC would have the potential to address such fundamental scientific issues as the origin of mass, the nature of dark matter and dark energy, the existence of extra dimensions, and the joining of nature's disparate forces into a single unified force. At the '2005 International Linear Collider (ILC) physics and detectors workshop and the second ILC accelerator workshop', scientists from Asia, Europe and North America will collaborate on the science and technology behind the proposed next-generation particle accelerator. 'Discoveries at the next generation of particle accelerators will fundamentally change our current picture of the universe,' said physicist Barry Barish, director of the Global Design Effort (GDE) for the ILC.

'The Snowmass workshop will focus the combined efforts of hundreds of scientists from around the world on all aspects of the proposed ILC. It will be a key step in forging the worldwide effort to design a machine that will address the greatest mysteries of the Universe at a cost the world can afford.' The proposed ILC and the Large Hadron Collider (LHC), an accelerator now under construction at CERN, the European Centre for Nuclear Research, in Geneva, Switzerland, would create particle collisions at Tera-electron-volt energies, beyond the reach of today's accelerators.

http://dbs.cordis.lu/cgi-bin/srchidadb?C...EN_RCN_ID:24269


Edited by theabstraction (08/12/05 04:29 PM)


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Offlinedismahshitznigga
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: distortopia]
    #4653813 - 09/13/05 04:04 AM (12 years, 14 days ago)

Edit: If you have nothing constructive to add to the thread, then say nothing at all. -Seuss


Edited by Seuss (09/13/05 07:00 AM)


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: distortopia]
    #4655199 - 09/13/05 03:34 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

And here I am, still excited about the particle accelerator being built at CERN.

If I don't die, this may be an interesting next few decades for science.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Ravus]
    #4655241 - 09/13/05 03:49 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

If I don't die, this may be an interesting next few decades for science.

How will your death affect particle physics research?  :tongue:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Swami]
    #4655252 - 09/13/05 03:52 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Because my mind is the only thing that exists, so of course you must simply be a figment of my imagination, along with everything else. Without the mind to perceive them, are there any quantum particles to study?


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Ravus]
    #4655290 - 09/13/05 04:02 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

*Swami starts to wink out*

Wait Ravus, don't take a nap now, I have work to do!


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePuppet1
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Ravus]
    #4655418 - 09/13/05 04:34 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
Because my mind is the only thing that exists, so of course you must simply be a figment of my imagination, along with everything else. Without the mind to perceive them, are there any quantum particles to study?




see, what your speaking of is philosophy. If you try to speak philosophy to a scientist, he'll think your saying some sort of voodoo spell. you see, scientists dont believe, much less understand, philosophy. So its best not to make their little science brains explode, and leave them to their quarks, strings, and particle accelerators.

"what, only six dimensions?"

hahahahahahaa.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Puppet1]
    #4655452 - 09/13/05 04:42 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Pure scientists empty their mind for everything but science, but a pure scientist is extremely rare among humans. Many of them have families, some even have religions, and many have non-scientifically verified beliefs, such as believing in extra terrestrials. Scientists are usually just normal people with vast amounts of knowledge about a certain scientific subject; the human machine who puts himself fully into his study with the exception of all other pleasures and thoughts is a rare treasure indeed.

Anyway, I was simply trying to justify my writing, since I wrote it wrong and felt it was easier to debate Swami than to go back and edit it. :wink:


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Puppet1]
    #4655513 - 09/13/05 04:57 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

But it's still funny when scientists start trying to catch up to the rest of the thinking world.
Mr. Science: "Hey, everything's relative and objectivity's a joke! Two different things can exist in the same space and time, one thing can be two different places at the same time and something can contradict itself, can both be and not be in the same way at the same time! Aaah!"
The rest of us: "Yup. Pass the peas, please."

They can just be so darned cute! Credible philosophers have been saying that for centuries, millenia even in some parts of the world.


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Panoramix]
    #4655540 - 09/13/05 05:03 PM (12 years, 13 days ago)

And credible philosophers have also been contradicting each other for centures, even millenia. Because philosophers require only rhetoric and debate, they don't need evidence, and therefore two philosophers with completely opposite viewpoints can both use the same human logic to arrive at opposite ends of the spectrum.

The beauty of science is in the evidence and the proof; humans have evolved beyond simply debating and rhetoric, which philosophy revolves around. Scientists don't need to argue really, because they can just point to the evidence and observations to help reveal the true nature of the universe (so we think).


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflinePuppet1
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Ravus]
    #4657707 - 09/14/05 01:41 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Ravus said:
And credible philosophers have also been contradicting each other for centures, even millenia. Because philosophers require only rhetoric and debate, they don't need evidence, and therefore two philosophers with completely opposite viewpoints can both use the same human logic to arrive at opposite ends of the spectrum.

The beauty of science is in the evidence and the proof; humans have evolved beyond simply debating and rhetoric, which philosophy revolves around. Scientists don't need to argue really, because they can just point to the evidence and observations to help reveal the true nature of the universe (so we think).




You see, this is the strength of philosophy, and the weakness of science. Science sees one thing happen and says "this is what is, and will ever be", philosophy arrives at two opposite conclusions off of the same rehetoric, because philosophers understand that their is no "one conclusion" or any one single truth, reguardless of what we sense.

"Just because you see it, doesnt mean its there. " -radiohead.

science as far as im concerned, is no less ingnorant and arrogant than the religous zealots that say earth was created in 6 days.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Puppet1]
    #4657929 - 09/14/05 02:39 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

science as far as im concerned, is no less ingnorant and arrogant than the religous zealots that say earth was created in 6 days.

And your concerns mean what to us? Try communicating that thought to the forum without using science.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Swami]
    #4658062 - 09/14/05 03:26 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

I hope a half-life like scenerio occurs and I get sent to clean up the mess. lol


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http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
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Can't fuck with me again"


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OfflineFospher
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Puppet1]
    #4658140 - 09/14/05 03:57 AM (12 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

Puppet1 said:

You see, this is the strength of philosophy, and the weakness of science. Science sees one thing happen and says "this is what is, and will ever be", philosophy arrives at two opposite conclusions off of the same rehetoric, because philosophers understand that their is no "one conclusion" or any one single truth, reguardless of what we sense.

"Just because you see it, doesnt mean its there. " -radiohead.

science as far as im concerned, is no less ingnorant and arrogant than the religous zealots that say earth was created in 6 days.




Wrong. A "fact" or a "law" in science means a repeatable hypothesis and tested experiment that has not been yet proven otherwise. This leaves a lot of room for future interpertation.

And please stop pointing out ignorance in others and look in the mirror.


--------------------
010001100100001001000101!


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OfflinePuppet1
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Fospher]
    #4659613 - 09/14/05 02:01 PM (12 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:

Puppet1 said:

You see, this is the strength of philosophy, and the weakness of science. Science sees one thing happen and says "this is what is, and will ever be", philosophy arrives at two opposite conclusions off of the same rehetoric, because philosophers understand that their is no "one conclusion" or any one single truth, reguardless of what we sense.

"Just because you see it, doesnt mean its there. " -radiohead.

science as far as im concerned, is no less ingnorant and arrogant than the religous zealots that say earth was created in 6 days.




Wrong. A "fact" or a "law" in science means a repeatable hypothesis and tested experiment that has not been yet proven otherwise. This leaves a lot of room for future interpertation.

And please stop pointing out ignorance in others and look in the mirror.




see this fosphor? its a red ball, go play with the red ball. its fun a fun ball isnt it? peek-a-boo, peek-a-boo.


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Fospher]
    #4660076 - 09/14/05 03:15 PM (12 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Fospher said:
Quote:

Puppet1 said:

You see, this is the strength of philosophy, and the weakness of science. Science sees one thing happen and says "this is what is, and will ever be", philosophy arrives at two opposite conclusions off of the same rehetoric, because philosophers understand that their is no "one conclusion" or any one single truth, reguardless of what we sense.

"Just because you see it, doesnt mean its there. " -radiohead.

science as far as im concerned, is no less ingnorant and arrogant than the religous zealots that say earth was created in 6 days.




Wrong. A "fact" or a "law" in science means a repeatable hypothesis and tested experiment that has not been yet proven otherwise. This leaves a lot of room for future interpertation.

And please stop pointing out ignorance in others and look in the mirror.




Not to pick over meaningless details, but what you describe is a theory.

For simplification purposes, I'll use Wikipedia's criteria for a physical law:

* true. By definition, there have never been repeatable contradicting observations.
* universal. They appear to apply everywhere in the universe. (Davies)
* simple. They are typically expressed in terms of a single mathematical equation. (Davies)
* absolute. Nothing in the universe appears to affect them. (Davies)
* eternal. Unchanged since first discovered (although they may have been shown to be approximations of more accurate laws?see "Laws as approximations" below), they appear to be unchanged since the beginning of the universe. It is thus presumed that they will remain unchanged in the future. (Davies)
* omnipotent. Everything in the universe apparently must comply with them. (Davies)
* "omniscient" (loosely speaking). The behavior of everything in the universe is automatically and immediately "known" to the laws. (Davies)
* generally conservative of quantity. (Feynman)
* often examples of symmetry. (Feynman)
* typically theoretically reversible in time (if non-quantum), although time itself is irreversible. (Feynman)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_law

Is it possible that density is not mass over volume? I don't really see this as a theory, but a law, because the nature of density is mass over volume; it needs no further explanations, since that is density's mathematical definition.

A theory, on the other hand, has many aspects to it and is constantly changing. Theories cannot be expressed in a simple mathematical formula that is intristic to the term, such as density, but some may even require thousands of pages to fully explore, such as the atomic or cellular theories. Theories exist to unify all the observations and evidence.

Just a clarification, as many people confuse laws and theories in science. If you argue that everything is subjective, perhaps density = mass/ volume is simply a persistent delusion, but that would nevertheless make it a law to our subjective experience.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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OfflineIgnatiusJReilly
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Re: The approaching revolution in particle physics [Re: Ravus]
    #4660600 - 09/14/05 04:55 PM (12 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

If you argue that everything is subjective, perhaps density = mass/ volume is simply a persistent delusion, but that would nevertheless make it a law to our subjective experience.




A lot is said in this forum about how nobody ever changes their beliefs.  I don't necessarily have many firm beliefs, but you managed to clarify something very basic that has been rattling around in my mind.  In effect, this statement is directly reponsible for my desire never to nit-pick about this crap again.  And I thank you for it.
:thumbup:


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"A Bad Day for Pants"


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