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InvisibleautomanM
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fundamental question on the existence of motion
    #1944140 - 09/23/03 01:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

what are your thoughts on whether or not there is such a thing as a static moment in time, where an object in motion's exact location in space can be determined?


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: automan]
    #1944171 - 09/23/03 01:57 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think you should look at it like this:

Is it possible to exactly locate an object in spacetime?


--------------------
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You've felt it your entire life.
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You don't know what it is, but it's there....
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: trendal]
    #1944188 - 09/23/03 02:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

trendal said:
I think you should look at it like this:

Is it possible to exactly locate an object in spacetime?




What about timespace? Or is that what we are in now? heh
Peace.


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Loving every breath of you

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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: trendal]
    #1944189 - 09/23/03 02:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The answer is no.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: automan]
    #1944197 - 09/23/03 02:02 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Bingo  :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: trendal]
    #1944215 - 09/23/03 02:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

lets go back to your 300 year old calculus. is it possible to determine the exact relative location of an object in motion?
(you may use the x, y, z, coordinate system)


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: automan]
    #1944230 - 09/23/03 02:09 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Yes.

And the difference is, of course, time.

It is quite possible to exactly locate a moving object in the classical view of "space".

The addition of 20th century physics, and especially the realization of "spacetime", are what change this.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: trendal]
    #1944236 - 09/23/03 02:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

it isnt possobly to exactly locate an object in time, because if you did the object wouldnt be moving.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: automan]
    #1944239 - 09/23/03 02:12 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Bingo again :wink:


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: trendal]
    #1944248 - 09/23/03 02:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

expound


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: automan]
    #1944265 - 09/23/03 02:17 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think it might also be wise to think about the definition of motion and distance.

I would define distance as the separation between two points in spacetime.

"Time" is just a different word for distance, as time can be defined as the "distance" between two points in the temporal dimension.

Motion then can be defined as a change in the distance between two or more objects in spacetime.

I say two or more here, because if there is only ONE object then motion in any direction is not possible because there is nothing to move relative to. Motion is entirely relative between objects/events.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: trendal]
    #1944266 - 09/23/03 02:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

do you think time is just a series of moments?


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: automan]
    #1944276 - 09/23/03 02:21 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

No, I think time is a stable dimension just like the other three spatial dimensions.

Time does not move. Time does not flow either in moments or continuously. It is we who are moving through time, in exactly the same way that we move through the spatial dimensions.

Except, for some odd reason, we have no or at least VERY little concious control over our movement through the temporal dimension...


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: trendal]
    #1944299 - 09/23/03 02:27 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

what do you think of rhizoids statement:
This is the well-known Zeno's Paradox. It was resolved with the invention of differential calculus more than 300 years ago.

The root of the paradox is this: what we identify as a ball at a particular moment in time is not the same thing as the entire life history from creation to destruction of a certain inflatable piece of rubber. They are different (but related) abstractions, in the same way as the human being that I was last tuesday isn't quite the same thing as the human life-process that spans my whole life from my birth until now.

A ball frozen at a moment of time has no motion. But when this ball is replicated at another moment of time, now frozen in a different location in space, we deduce that there is a ball-process that has the property of motion. No paradox.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: automan]
    #1944313 - 09/23/03 02:30 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

it is my contention that there is no such thing as a "frozen moment of time"


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No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: automan]
    #1944334 - 09/23/03 02:34 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I'll just rephrase what I wrote in the other thread:

The phrase "an object" can refer to a specific arrangement of molecules, which is observed at some specific place at some specific time. But it can also refer to a collection of such observations where each one occurred at a different time, and in such a way that they form a causal sequence.

One of the properties of such a sequence is motion, and in fact that is how motion is defined. One moment the thing is here, another moment it is somewhere else, so it has moved. A single momentary observation on the other hand, does not have motion since it does not have extent in time.

That's why the concept of momentary velocity needs to be defined by limits that use two data points separated in time.


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: automan]
    #1944345 - 09/23/03 02:38 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I see no paradox there.


Something else: saying a ball is "frozen at a moment of time" may not be accurate. Without the ability to move through the temporal dimension at will, we are stuck moving at a constant velocity through spacetime.

As is, this velocity is equal to the speed of light in the vacuume. All matter and energy travels at this velocity through spacetime. Energy travels at 100% of this velocity in the spatial dimensions only, thus it has no "room" left to move in the temporal dimension - thus energy does not "move" through time, only space. Matter, on the other hand, moves through both time and space. This can be seen in the fact that matter does not and NEVER CAN travel at the speed of light. If our velocity through spacetime is fixed, and matter travels at LESS than the speed of light through any spatial extent, then the matter is also traveling through time.

The closer the matter's velocity through any SPATIAL extent gets to the speed of light, the slower the matter travels through the TEMPORAL extent. This is time dilation as seen in moving objects.


--------------------
You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1944348 - 09/23/03 02:39 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

rhizoid, are you saying that time is a series of static moments, by which an object in motion's exact location can be marked along a trojectory?


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: automan]
    #1944607 - 09/23/03 03:56 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

rhizoid, are you saying that time is a series of static moments, by which an object in motion's exact location can be marked along a trojectory?



The moments need not be static in the sense of being completely determined in order to exist. But motion implies a trajectory of some kind, yes. I see time as a kind of organizing principle for observations. We experience things and have memories of other experiences, and all this can be organized into a sequence where the sequencing parameter is the coordinate we call "time".

The reason why time is different from the space dimensions has to do with the special connection between time and causality. Exactly why causality treats the time dimension the way it does is still a mystery to me.


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InvisibleautomanM
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Re: fundamental question on the existence of motion [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1944917 - 09/23/03 05:18 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

i need to think on this for a while. it is the first time that i have ever truely tried to wrap my brain around it.
thanks to everyone for helping me on my voyage to better understanding the universe.


--------------------
No, no, you're not thinking, you're just being logical. ~ Niels Bohr


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