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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: runnerup]
    #3565357 -

America is one of the MOST religious nations in the world.


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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: jux]
    #3565374 -

jux said:
America is one of the MOST religious nations in the world.



Outside of the Middle East, anyway.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: silversoul7]
    #3565505 -

Quote:
silversoul7 said:
Having done a term paper on this subject, I can assure you that America is getting more religious, not less. It's Europe which is becoming rapidly more secular. However, there have always been atheists. Several thinkers during the Age of Enlightenment saw religion as evil, and some even wished to abolish it(Marx, for example). Furthermore, there are some sects of Buddhism which do not recognize the existence of a deity. Also, there are some cultures who worship their ancestors rather than any supreme being.




I am sorry but I would have to strongly disagree. This nation was built under a belief of the christian god. The inhabitants before the newcomers of the New World where strong believers in God(s). The New World was explored under the christian god. Atheism has never been such a popular word until today because of its use. No Pre-Colombian culture has had a word for atheism because there was no doubt of a god.

Today people are loosing a belief.

I strongly believe that America is getting less religious.

Do not be fooled by our president. Look at the people going against him. Just because Christians are getting more active does not mean there are more Christians. Does not mean there are more people that believe in a God. I am not sure how you can come up with the conclusion that American is getting more religious. But I would like to hear it. If America is getting more religious then why are there actual atheism groups spread across the country that were not here before? How do you get scientist proving a theory of god wrong and blowing it off as a myth. People like cb9fl, in Florida that do not believe in a God. Its happening faster now then ever before. America is getting less religious.

"there are some cultures who worship their ancestors rather than any supreme being"

In addition I have heard of some of these cultures, and I am not saying that there are no cultures that worship there ancestors. Although I have heard the cultures that hold customs that pay high respect to there ancestors particularly in Asia, and South America. This may be a confusion. A lot of people get confused with Worship and Respect. For example Catholics do not worship the saints, or the mother Mary, they highly respect them. Just because someone saves there ancestors skull as a bowl to drink out of during religious ceremony doesn't mean they are worshiping the ancestor either.

I'm not trying to attack you I'm just trying to tell you how I perceive this.

Edited by runnerup (12/31/04 01:27 PM)

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: runnerup]
    #3565750 -

runnerup said:
silversoul7 said:
Also, there are some cultures who worship their ancestors rather than any supreme being.



I am sorry but I would have to strongly disagree. This nation was built under a belief of the christian god.



Correct, but it was also built on the idea that anyone may worship any god they want, or not god at all if they are so inclined. I think you are overly concerned with atheists and the idea that America is getting less religious. I know it sounds lame, but:

It doesn't really matter.

Silversoul, I am interested in what you said about "cultures who worship their ancestors". I know someone who is into this and the idea is intruiging. It is fascinating to think of all our ancestors and really how many hundreds (thousands?) of people went into making every one of us. (2 parents + 4 grandparents + 8 great grandparents + 16+32+64+128+etc,etc,etc,etc,16777216,etc,etc. You get the idea.


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"my brain waves travel at half the speed afta we..." -del tha funkee

"Two men looked out through prison bars...one saw the mud, one saw the stars." -anonymous

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: runnerup]
    #3565767 -

runnerup said:
I am sorry but I would have to strongly disagree. This nation was built under a belief of the christian god. The inhabitants before the newcomers of the New World where strong believers in God(s). The New World was explored under the christian god. Atheism has never been such a popular word until today because of its use. No Pre-Colombian culture has had a word for atheism because there was no doubt of a god.



You are seriously misinformed. First of all, many prominent founding fathers, most notably Thomas Jefferson, were not Christians. As for New World exploration, there were missionaries, but there were also several secular explorers who were in it for nothing but wealth and fame. Atheism has been around since Biblical times(which is why there are passages in the Bible condemning it). Also, I think you may be using the word "God" a litte to liberally here. Ancestor worship is not worshipping a deity. Also, I wouldn't exactly consider the animism of many Pre-Columbian tribes to be theism.

Quote:
Today people are loosing a belief.



Not in America. People here are flocking to more conservative, less secular churches in massive numbers.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1010/p12s01-lire.html

Quote:
I strongly believe that America is getting less religious.



And like most beliefs, this is not grounded in empirical evidence.

Quote:
Do not be fooled by our president. Look at the people going against him. Just because Christians are getting more active does not mean there are more Christians. Does not mean there are more people that believe in a God. I am not sure how you can come up with the conclusion that American is getting more religious. But I would like to hear it. If America is getting more religious then why are there actual atheism groups spread across the country that were not here before? How do you get scientist proving a theory of god wrong and blowing it off as a myth. People like cb9fl, in Florida that do not believe in a God. Its happening faster now then ever before. America is getting less religious.



Your anecdotal evidence does not play out in statical evidence. Surveys show that church membership is growing in America, that something like 80% of Americans believe in God, and only about half even believe in evolution.

Quote:
In addition I have heard of some of these cultures, and I am not saying that there are no cultures that worship there ancestors. Although I have heard the cultures that hold customs that pay high respect to there ancestors particularly in Asia, and South America. This may be a confusion. A lot of people get confused with Worship and Respect. For example Catholics do not worship the saints, or the mother Mary, they highly respect them. Just because someone saves there ancestors skull as a bowl to drink out of during religious ceremony doesn't mean they are worshiping the ancestor either.



They have shrines to their ancestors and try to stay in good favor with them, much the way Christians do with their God. In any case, such cultures usually do not worship some supreme being.

Quote:
I'm not trying to attack you I'm just trying to tell you how I perceive this.



Nor am I trying to attack you. I'm only correcting your perceptions with the actual facts.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: runnerup]
    #3566017 -

Quote:
The world has believed of God in every culture until now.




I'm sorry, but I believe that you have been hugely misinformed. Many people, both individuals and cultures, have always been essentially unconcerned with anything similar to a Christian God.


Consider this quote from this essay, The Buddhist Attituted to God :
Quote:
...most Asian religions (with the possible exception of some extremely devotional forms of Hinduism) are essentially non-theistic, in that God does not occupy the central place that is accorded to him in monotheistic religious traditions. But Buddhism goes beyond most of these other religions in that it is positively anti-theistic because the very notion of God conflicts with some principles which are fundamental to the Buddhist view of the world and the role of humans in it.



Consider the Japanese: they don't generally believe in God, and never have.


Holding beliefs, or at least telling stories, about the great mysteries of life is a common human trait. Belief in God is not.

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: phi1618]
    #3566126 -

Do not assume I'm talking about a christian god my friends. I'm talking about gods in general. And there is no right answer to this. Therefore I cannot merit what you are calling "statistical evidence" a fact. I understand Atheism has been around since the days of the Old Testament, I am not saying it did not exist until now. I think that cultures in the world today are Dropping more and more from a belief in a god than ever before.

Pre-Colombian deities are referred to as gods by many.The subject of this post is "god", I do not feel I am using the term Liberally. The Aztecs referred to different worshiped deities as "gods". They are one of the only good historical references we have on Pre-Colombian Cultures. Maya, Toltec, Aztec were not tribes, they had invented and established to many accomplishments to be referred to as a tribe.

Even with statistical "evidence" It does not prove your theory. This Theory clearly has not been proven. So you have no right in calling your theory a fact. And statistics are not always correct. America cannot be analyzed as a whole from a survey taken by 50 people.

I think it is clear more people in America have changed from the beginning of the creation of America and more people in America do not believe in a god.

I know I'm wrong in some statements I don't do alot of research on this, its just my assumptions. but thanks for your replies I'm learning alot and having fun with silversoul =D

Edited by runnerup (12/31/04 05:28 PM)

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: runnerup]
    #3566146 -

Did you read the link I posted? By the way it is as much a fact as evolution, no matter how much the detractors of each may want to believe otherwise. And are you aware that the pre-Columbian Americas were populated by more than just the Aztecs, Maya, and Toltecs?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: phi1618]
    #3566261 -

Someone here said that now everything was explainable and that therefore there is no need for god..

..Why do you think god and all things under it including the christian
concepts of afterlife etc. and unexplainable by science?

If there is afterlife and god, they are perfectly explainable by science, it's just that it is not possible to do that just yet.
1000 years ago science could not explain radiation or existence
of radio wave images or sound. That doesn't mean that these things
are above every law of nature.

Fighting religion with science is veeeeery narowminded.

It is absurd to think that religious principles are somehow "supernatural". If they do exist, they are natural.
If god exists he is natural.

The word "supernatural" is a hollow word, it has no meaning.
Supernatural is same as impossible. And if something is impossible,
then it can not happen, and nothing can be above it.
So if god exists, that means that he is possible, therefore he is
natural because by natural (vs. supernatural) we mean everything that
can exist as it does.

And besides, the existence of god is a rather relative issue.
It depends on what you consider as god. For a mathematician, god
is the law that 1+1=2 ,out of that law the whole mathematics is buit.
For a physicist, god is energy between quarks becuase in a way it is a soul of the universe.
For a spiritist, god is the collection of all souls that form
one big collective consciousness.
For a naturist, god is the life around him and in him, it is that silent moment in nature in which he gets that feeling that everything is connected.

There is the universe, and inside there are endless particles. Our minds connect these particles to larger structures. That is how we
create a glass, a building in our minds. The same way we create
god in our minds. We say, he is this, he is here, he is there, but
the trouth is that "god" is our little limited concept that can not
really tell you anything about the true nature of the universe.
God is everything, we choose our slice of everything to wich we will attribue the name of god.

And if you are thinking of god as some sort of a spirit that is disconnected from us, then such a thing can not be god, but one of
it's creations, that we only think is god. If god is ultimate, then
we are god too, a part of him, not his sheep or anything, but his flesh, our thoughts are god.

Even if science somehow proves that there is no eternal life, there is no spirit, it still can not disproove such a concept of god.
If god is existence (vs. non existence) than how can it be disprooven?


And as for the original question:
People now believe in science more than before. But science for the masses is just another religion. People believe what other people tell them, now isn't that religion?
The belief is still there, just the source of knowledge ha changed.
Rather than relieing on unexplained sources of knowledge, people rather want to find out things for themeselfs. but this is where the illusion starts, they do not find for themselfs, they just pay others to make new dogmas. P.H.D means that you are the high priest, and that you are always right. It is a new form of dogmas.

But this will not go on forever. One day science will go so far,
that it will become too complicated for the common folks, and they
will start to distrust it, just as they did with old religions.
Even now when people hear about quantum physics they turn their heads ways and say it's bullshit.
People have certain expectations from science, those expectations
are based on their limited logic and intelligence and limited will
to really understand without prejudgements.

People exept science because it better suits them for their own
lives and phylosophy. Once science gets "out of hand" and starts sounding more and more like the old religions, then people will once again be confused and will start doubting it too.

It's not awareness, it's not common sense. It's just that
people want to hear certain things and turn to whatever suits them better.

So why people want to hear that there is no god? Well because
it suits capitalism better. There is no god, there is no unity,
that means that a rich man has nothing in common with the poor guy on the street, and since animals do it, I can do the same thing, and let him starve while I have more and more money.

Darvinism is the religion of the capitalistic world.

People turn to those who understand them and support them. Old religion do not support mans urges for power, vilence and greed.
In the old days man was hopeless against the forces of the nature, and had to "obey". Today man lives in a laboratory where everything
is perfect, he is no longer afraid of non-man threats.
And now he doens't need to obey "god".
Before that, the only reason to obey god was for protection through intervention of some devine forces or whatever.
Now that that he doesn't need this protection, there is no reason to stick around and no reason for listening to christiam, muslim and other morality. And he never really liked this morality anyway, he boeyed it out of fear, so he turns to something more free and forgiving, such as darvinism.
Man has never really cared about anything but his urges and emotions.
The hero of modern age is a man who satisfies his emotions regardles of tradition or other forms of supression.
People love their emotions, and like to listen to them becuase emotions are the perfect way of control. It is the way nature controls
animals.
What better way is there to make someone do something than make him WANT to do it..

In other words, the long supressed EGO of modern man has been awakened by alternatives that were not there before modern times.
Furthermore, this ego is influenced by primitive urges and emotions.

People think that if they loose those emotions and urges that they
are not humans any more, that beyond them is only death.
But beyond it is something far more wonderfull than any of those emotions.

The revolution from religion to science is based on emotions and
urges(urge for freedem, the explosion of supressed impules) .The revolution from barbarism to religion was allso based on
emotions and urges (fear from unpredictability in this case).


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"..and suddenly it began to rain"

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: runnerup]
    #3566289 -

The premise is false, the majority of America does believe in God. The majority of Europe in the Middle Ages believed in God. Russia was the one instance that I can remember where there was a time when the majority of the citizens were proclaimed atheists, but Russia has always been quite odd. Some other religions, and their cultures, did/ do not believe in one ultimate god, or do not care if a god exists.

Belief in God may remain, but the intensity of religion over the past centuries seems to be declining in favor of science and logic. Who knows how long that will last though, the world always seems to be a wavering balance between the left brain and the right brain, the yin and yang, or logic and spirituality. Perhaps a new type of spirituality will appear, and these petty statistics over belief in god will fade.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: runnerup]
    #3566610 -

I think what you're implying is very subjective, because from my understanding the United States is the most religiously wired nation in the First World. In the last election, for the first time ever voters voted someone into office in-spite of the issues in favor of religious values.

If God is dead anywhere, it's in Europe. Everywhere else in the world seems to adhere to some form of traditional spirituality, be it Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, or other Eastern spiritual practices.

Progress is nearly impossible in Jesusland? these days.


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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: zahudulallah]
    #3566671 -

God exist,God does not exist..blaa,blaa,blaa.
some believe,some dont,notin to be scared of were gonna find out anyway.


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Got to bag em up!

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: thedman]
    #3566717 -

"And besides, the existence of god is a rather relative issue.
It depends on what you consider as god. For a mathematician, god
is the law that 1+1=2 ,out of that law the whole mathematics is buit.
For a physicist, god is energy between quarks becuase in a way it is a soul of the universe.
For a spiritist, god is the collection of all souls that form
one big collective consciousness.
For a naturist, god is the life around him and in him, it is that silent moment in nature in which he gets that feeling that everything is connected."

Very well said.

To debate whether "God" exists, there first needs to be a definition. I see many of you have different definitions but are still arguing, maybe you should state what you consider "God".


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Eat psilocybes, listen to A Silver Mt. Zion, read Howard Bloom and Tom Brown Jr, walk into the forest.

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Re: The world has believed of God in every culture until now. [Re: H_Wrabbit]
    #3566894 -

I like this one.

"God is that than which nothing greater can be thought"(St. Anselm).

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