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Offlinekadakuda
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Plants and the gods
    #3468030 - 12/09/04 12:52 AM (12 years, 4 days ago)

many many "religions" as we all know use various ethnogenic plants in their rituals, healing and everyday life. for arguments sake lets jsut stick to spiritual plants, peyote for example. now im curious as many of these plants, especially peyote, are a very sacred gem. long history and stories of them and detailed accounts on how they came to be and whatnot.

now some of these plants used in rituals sem to have as much to do with the gathering and journey of teh plant as teh experience itself. but lots of these tribes (im speaking of mainly US indians and the peyote cactus) end up walking somewhere and buying these gems. im just curious how this interferes with the ancestors ways or whatever. having a hard time putting this into words.

if your beliefe system has much to do with ethno plants how important is it to go out and say thanks and praise teh earth and gods for your findings? or is it just as good to go to a store and buy these plants? does buying such things take the meaning out of it and make it just a "high"? or just a vision?

hope that came across readable.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Registered: 10/23/02
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Re: Plants and the gods [Re: kadakuda]
    #3468661 - 12/09/04 03:14 AM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Are you saying that going to the store and buying the plant could be a religous experience in itself?

I personally dont think it could be, but i do think that the experience it self may be somewhat independent. Peyote rituals are meant to be meaningul, hence the whole looking for the plant and really absorbing the "journey" and "Devotion".

Reminds me of christmas... while you can just go to the store and get a tree and put lights on it and put presents beneath it, it doesnt necessarily represent in of itself the ideas of "christianity", or "Christs birth" as a gift to the world.


For ne it would be very hard to find peyote and i could consider it a "long search". Not san pedro, but i guess it depends on what meaning you find in the particular plant.

Either way the combination of the things which the earth is made it, so whether you buy it or not, cant take that away.

What I ask myself is, is

Where's the meaning?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Plants and the gods [Re: kadakuda]
    #3468734 - 12/09/04 03:51 AM (12 years, 3 days ago)

I have gone to the store and drank a beer and flown to Milwaukee and drank a beer. Difference - none.

Many Indians HAD to go on a pilgrimage to find peyote, either because it did not grow or was over-harvested in their area. It was probably a pain in the ass to disrupt normal routine to do do, so they made a ritual out of it.

Lets's ask our Pacific Northwest friends. Now while I would love to go mushroom hunting for the hide & seek, Easter-Egg-hunt thrill of finding a local gem, I doubt the subsequent journey was any different than if they took the "goodies" back home and ingested them vs. purchasing them (the exact same species) from a friend.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleuriahchase
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Re: Plants and the gods [Re: Swami]
    #3468989 - 12/09/04 06:12 AM (12 years, 3 days ago)

hey it doesnt matter whether i find them here in WA or like in june when there's nothing to search for i just buy 'em. no biggy. BUT finding your own saves alot of$$. its fun too.


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Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Plants and the gods [Re: Swami]
    #3469036 - 12/09/04 06:58 AM (12 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
I have gone to the store and drank a beer and flown to Milwaukee and drank a beer. Difference - none.

Many Indians HAD to go on a pilgrimage to find peyote, either because it did not grow or was over-harvested in their area. It was probably a pain in the ass to disrupt normal routine to do do, so they made a ritual out of it.

Lets's ask our Pacific Northwest friends. Now while I would love to go mushroom hunting for the hide & seek, Easter-Egg-hunt thrill of finding a local gem, I doubt the subsequent journey was any different than if they took the "goodies" back home and ingested them vs. purchasing them (the exact same species) from a friend.




beer and peyote are a bit different no?


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Plants and the gods [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3469098 - 12/09/04 07:39 AM (12 years, 3 days ago)

beer and peyote are a bit different no?

Is this a rhetorical question?


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Plants and the gods rhetorical + [Re: Swami]
    #3470750 - 12/09/04 03:36 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

with an incredulously quizzical rising inflection appended


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Plants and the gods rhetorical + [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3470867 - 12/09/04 03:59 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

I think it is important to draw a conceptual distinction between plants, and people's history of association and their relationship with these plants.

To a person who happens to find, say, for example, peyote , growing in the desert, without any knowledge of what the plant is or what people have used it for over the years, it is just a little catcus. One has to identify with the fact that the plant exists beyond any thoughts and previous experiences of the plant, as it always has. The history of its usage in mankind, the attitudes and rituals associated it, are all human ideas existing in the mind, not the plant. The plant simply is what it is. :wink:

This is not to deny the benefits of the experiences on these plants, or the cultivated awareness and history of the plant, but it is a necessity in recognizing the difference of observable reality and our projections onto that reality. These plants do not exist as spiritual plants deserving of ritual, they exist simply as plants.

In the case of peyote, for example, one cannot journey into the desert and seek it out, as they are an endangered species and are extremely limited in location. One can simply go out and buy them if one wishes, there is nothing really wrong with any method of obtainment as long as it doesn't further endanger the species... I'd personally suggest growing one's own peyote, so one can have the oppurtunity to build a prolonged relationship with your catcus, making the experience of injesting it later more meaningful, if you have cultivated a meaningful, personal relationship with it. :laugh:

The spirituality and meaning of plants exist in your own mind, ultimately. This does not, like I said, diminish the importance of holding a personal, spiritual signifigance for these plants, but it is necessary to recognize the source of this spiritual signifigance.  :grin:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Loving every breath of you

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Plants and the gods rhetorical + [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3470935 - 12/09/04 04:06 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

I think it is important to draw a conceptual distinction between plants, and people's history of association and their relationship with these plants.

Exactly. Without prior knowledge not one person would "accidentally" ingest this most bitter of all substances. You would spit it out INSTANTLY and swear it was a deadly poison. Same with Ayahuasca. (People that bitch about the taste of shrooms, or even San Pedro, do not have a clue what is in store for them.)

The same thing with the trip. Some believe peyote leads to the most sacred experience. Give that to someone without their knowledge and they would probably scream and freak-out as the world started shifting.

Prior knowledge and the cactus' rarity definitely "shapes" the experience.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Plants and the gods rhetorical + [Re: Swami]
    #3472329 - 12/09/04 08:47 PM (12 years, 3 days ago)

think i messed up explaining it. im not talking about the majority of us doign these things for fun or "insights" really. lets talk strictly peyote to avoid confucion. many of the tribes made very long travels to gain this (one tribe known for their incredible speed) plant. they talk of the journey to be as spiritual as teh plants experience itself. so im wondering if THEY (or you if your one of these "they's" i speak of) go and buy the peyote from a store, well teh cheif or whoever si appointed, if it is then not apeasign their gods or not doing somthing. seems liek the journey brings the people together and really brings out teh experience. im just wondering whats what in their eyes.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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