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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423737 -

Fucknuckle said:
OK now that you are getting rude

In fact I am part of the economy.....er was

Until 2 weeks ago I employed over 70 people on 2 shifts.

I think I have a much better understanding of the subject than some College class

Now on to your post

I fully understand the fact of supply and demand. I understand how markets work. I have survived them for 15 years and turned my company into a cash powerhouse competing in the most competitive market I know of. The Automotive market

But you said that people can live with 1.50 an hour. Or that a company could survive offering such a low wage.

You are not thinking clearly.

Like many people here you are just trying to say something silly and expect us to buy it.

Like I said your statement was way out of touch with reality

But Your point has some truth even though is was stretched beyond what is real.

So points to you :smile:


Well first of all sorry be rude i do that often and i don't mean it.

And second of all you completely missed my point. You said if there were no min wage laws some company might offer 1.50
Quote:
Oh yeah that would be a good idea Then the bastards could just pay people 1.50 an hour

I disagreed with this point so i made my post.

If workers cannot survive off that wage no one will work there and the company would have to raise its wage. My point was that since a company cannot survive offering a wage so low why are the laws in place.  If a person can survive off a wage and they are willing to work for that i dont see why the government won't allow that.

I myself believe in no minimum wage laws but if i did own a company with workers would pay them quite a bit because i believe a happier well paid workforce works better. I have seen this to be very evident in my father's business who pays his workers crazy wages. The government needs to stay the fuck out of the economy is all I'm saying.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3423827 -

Well I never had a college class on economics

But I think that the Government is the economy.

I just don't understand your logic and I see no basis for it in my experience dealing with business.


But I am trying


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423908 -

Fucknuckle said:
Well I never had a college class on economics

But I think that the Government is the economy.

I just don't understand your logic and I see no basis for it in my experience dealing with business.


But I am trying


Well since i understand my own logic, can you try and explain my own logic to me. I don't see what you are not able to understand. Please im serious. Since you misunderstood my first post, im wondering if you are doing to same or if i am just being to vague.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3423932 -

I think maybe this is a pointless discussion don't you?

I mean when will we ever see anyone try to pay anyone a 1.50 an hour?

If I answer you I will somehow be wrong and if I don't answer you I am going to excused of not understanding?

So.....................

Lets us leave it here and you can think what ever you like

I think our life's experiences are far to different to carry on

Peace friend


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3423962 -

How many jobs today actually pay minimum wage? I would have a hard time finding one locally. Even the corner gas station pays around $8/hour for a completely mindless job.

Quote:
If people choose to work for 1.50 an hour why shouldn't they be able to.


Quote:
But you said that people can live with 1.50 an hour. Or that a company could survive offering such a low wage.


If a company was allowed to offer $1.50/hour no one would work there. The company would go out of business or have to raise it's wages without intervention by the government. It's not like there is a giant conspiracy of every company in the world that would allow something like that to happen. There is competition in the marketplace. This competition benefits employees as well as consumers. As an employee I can approach my company and show them that another company down the street is willing to pay more. If the company I work for can't pay more then I can choose to work somewhere else for more money.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3423974 -

We are in agreement(although one of your previous statements does not coincide with this) that a company could not sustain itself paying out a wage of $1.50/hour. Are you even misunderstanding that?

My view is that the market sets its own wage minimums and maximums.

Your view is that this does not work so the government must enforce minimum wages.

You have offered no support for your view. I didn't ever think there was a discussion.

Also i don't understand how you can completely disregard the huge effects(mostly negative) that would result from raising the minimum wage very high.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: RebelSteve33]
    #3423983 -

an effective minimum wage law will result in unemployment. that is the trade-off.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3424007 -

Oh, now I see the problem. You have made up a view for me.

No wonder we are going in circles

It will be very hard for me to conform to your image of me.

Sorry but you have me wrong.


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3424014 -

cb9fl said:
How many jobs today actually pay minimum wage? I would have a hard time finding one locally. Even the corner gas station pays around $8/hour for a completely mindless job.

Quote:
If people choose to work for 1.50 an hour why shouldn't they be able to.


Quote:
But you said that people can live with 1.50 an hour. Or that a company could survive offering such a low wage.


If a company was allowed to offer $1.50/hour no one would work there. The company would go out of business or have to raise it's wages without intervention by the government. It's not like there is a giant conspiracy of every company in the world that would allow something like that to happen. There is competition in the marketplace. This competition benefits employees as well as consumers. As an employee I can approach my company and show them that another company down the street is willing to pay more. If the company I work for can't pay more then I can choose to work somewhere else for more money.


Are you just backing me up or what? This has been my point throughout this entire thread........


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: d33p]
    #3424090 -

I was trying to explain what you said in simpler terms. Yes I am backing you up. I oppose a federal minimum wage.

I really don't see how having a minimum wage helps. If there was no federal minimum wage I feel that the market would adjust and probably stay about the same. If the federal minimum wage was increased beyond the rate on inflation I believe the cost of living would increase accordingly. The owner of the local Subway isn't going to dip into his pocket when he has to pay his workers more. He is going to increase the cost of a sandwich.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3424112 -

This a very intresting article on the economy. Here's a part: Decline of the White-Collar Workforce
Both sides of the political spectrum have confused the dawn of the service economy with the Second Coming. Swept away by the glamour of the transition to a service economy, they have failed to look carefully at the downside. And there is a downside: Millions of workers will be trapped in low-wage positions with no hope of upward mobility, and?despite the conventional wisdom that sees the service economy as a white-collar bonanza?automation will devastate the earnings of many white-collar workers and consign whole professions to the dustbin of history.

Decline of the White-Collar Workforce
Both sides of the political spectrum have confused the dawn of the service economy with the Second Coming. Swept away by the glamour of the transition to a service economy, they have failed to look carefully at the downside. And there is a downside: Millions of workers will be trapped in low-wage positions with no hope of upward mobility, and?despite the conventional wisdom that sees the service economy as a white-collar bonanza?automation will devastate the earnings of many white-collar workers and consign whole professions to the dustbin of history.

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/1998/03/mead.html

Anyone think it's possible that the white collar worker will be paid less? Oh I hope not, that's what I'm going to do. FUCK


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3424160 -

He is going to increase the cost of a sandwich.

his workers are going to be making less sandwiches. there will be a reduction in both employment and production. sure, some people may be paid more, but that is more than offset by the increased price and scarcity of sandwiches and anything else produced by labor. then there are the people who are put out of work altogether.

not a sane economic policy. one cannot create economic prosperity through an act of legislation.

the irony of the whole thing is that the people hit hardest by the unemployment caused by a minimum wage are the ones least qualified for employment. so much for helping the little guy.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: silversoul7]
    #3424198 -

Quote:
ss7 said:
but it usually tends to be high school and college students getting these jobs anyway


even if that is the case (which i doubt) a lot of college students don't have mommy and daddy to rely on. judging by this statement i assume you have yet to fend for yourself on a realistic level. I'm a student and have tons of bills with rent and all that comes with it, tution, car maintence ect. I have to work two jobs and I'm still on a ramen diet half the month. I work for my school at $5.15 an hour (soon to be $6.15 in jan due to florida raising minimun wage) and we get a raise after working there for one year of a whopping 35cents! I also work as an independant contractor for many upperscale restaurants in the area on commission ($2.60 a delivery) plus tips which comes out to like $8.00 an hour. While it's true there are (very few) places i can make more than minimum wage like I did at my old job (was $5.15 + tips, came out to about $10-15/hr depending) those jobs require all of your time. My old job had me working until 4am when I had school at 9 the next morning. If you combine my jobs pay I make $13.15/hr. and don't have any money left after bills to save for emergencys. What happens when my 10 year old POS car breaks down? I'm pretty fucked as that's how I make my money and I don't have backup money in the bank for things like that. You're not entitled to an opinion if you're still living off mommy and daddy (and correct me if I'm wrong in my assumption) That extra dollar an hour will really be noticable to people like me, maybe i can actually buy some meat!


--------------------
There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424226 -

John do you think your college job will lose hours due to the increase? I can imagine a college having fewer workers on a shift and simply making them work harder. If you're making $1 more per hour but working less hours the increase doesn't really benefit you.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424244 -

John, the problem is that increasing minimum wage does not just simply put more money in your pocket and thats it. It is not that simple. The implications of minimum wages are very complicated and extensive and when examined many of them are negative. Somebody has just implanted the idea in your head that raising the minimum wage will help the poor and people like you. It won't, you've been lied to.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: Fucknuckle]
    #3424274 -

Fucknuckle said:
Well I never had a college class on economics

But I think that the Government is the economy.

I just don't understand your logic and I see no basis for it in my experience dealing with business.


But I am trying



The government is most certainly NOT the economy. And the minimum wage discussion is utter drivel. It is set at a very low level and there is actually no reason for it to exist. I owned a company too. The illegals wouldn't work for minimum wage. With the current level of unemployment at around 5% nobody will take those wages and if you're stupid enough to you shouldn't reproduce, for sure. Minimum wage should most certainly not be set at a level that would support a family. It should be set at a level that would discourage the starting of a family, if that's all you can make. It's essentially a device to protect children and retards.

I doubt that anyone willing to work for minimum wage is unemployed. I also doubt that anyone who is working for minimum wage isn't looking for another job. The whole argument is a straw man.
There are plenty of jobs in construction labor that go begging around here for $10 an hour, cash, plus lunch.


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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: newuser1492]
    #3424312 -

they have a set number of hours they HAVE to let me work a week so no. they actually just hired two more employees which we absolutly do not need in fact we were already over staffed before that, i really don't get it and it pisses me off as now we have to train these kids (mind you i work in a lab with very caustic/dangerous chems ect.) and with the money they're paying these fucks they could have raised our pay. the school has a lot of money to throw away i guess? the student government at my school has access to money in the millions. :shocked:

d33p
I know with raised minimum wage it makes it harder on small business owners and there might be job outsourcing to state that haven't enacted the dollar wage ect. nobody told me anything, in fact i had no idea about the raising of m/w until i went to vote and saw it on the ballot and haven't heard much since except that it passed. all I know is that me and the people I'm surrounded by the raise of m/w will be a positive and human are by nature self-serving.


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There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: John]
    #3424334 -

Quote:
With the current level of unemployment at around 5% nobody will take those wages and if you're stupid enough to you shouldn't reproduce, for sure.


ala ignorance. sorry not all of us have nothing better to do than lug around a hammer all day. some have more important obligations (aka school) but still need to be able to survive. mind you most entry level college students such as myself have absolutly nothing going for them in terms of good paying, flexible hour jobs.


--------------------
There's a thin line between sanity and insanity... and I just snorted it.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3424380 -


There are plenty of jobs in construction labor that go begging around here for $10 an hour, cash, plus lunch.

Where do you live? The economy in my area is SHIT. When the local WalMart opened, I think almost a thousand people showed up for six-seven dollar an hour jobs.

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Re: Should minimum wage be raised? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3424391 -

Quote:
zappaisgod said:
. " It should be set at a level that would discourage the starting of a family, if that's all you can make. It's essentially a device to protect children and retards. "

THIS IS THE WILDEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD WOW WOW WOW :shocked:fucknickle

"I doubt that anyone willing to work for minimum wage is unemployed."

AND THIS IS SO FAR FROM THE REAL WORLD I THINK YOU OWN A VERY VERY SMALL COMPANY WITH 1 EMPLOYEE fucknuckle


  "I also doubt that anyone who is working for minimum wage isn't looking for another job.  The whole argument is a straw man.
There are plenty of jobs in construction labor that go begging around here for $10 an hour, cash, plus lunch. "

WHAT DO YOU THINK JUST ANYONE CAN DO CONSTRUCTION? THINK AGAIN fucknuckle






The complete lack of real experience in here is killing me :frown: fucknuckle


--------------------
What it is, is what it is my Brother.
It is as it is, so suffer thru it.

Edited by Fucknuckle (11/29/04 06:32 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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