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Offlinelonestar2004
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Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd
    #5858772 - 07/14/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd

July 14, 2006

BY FRAN SPIELMAN City Hall Reporter


Target is putting plans to build three South Side stores "on hold" -- and making veiled threats to close existing Chicago stores -- if the City Council mandates wage and benefit standards for "big-box" retailers, African-American aldermen warned Thursday.

The saber-rattling is intensifying as the clock winds down toward a July 26 showdown vote on plans to make Chicago the nation's first major city to establish a "living wage" for stores with at least 90,000 square feet of space operated by retailers with $1 billion in sales.

Minneapolis-based Target becomes the second retailing giant to threaten to pull out of the lucrative Chicago market in a last-ditch effort to stop an ordinance championed by organized labor that breezed through the City Council's Finance Committee 15-6 and has attracted support from 33 aldermen.








WAGE WAR

The current federal minimum wage is $5.15 an hour. Illinois' minimum wage is $6.50


Most Chicago area Wal-Mart employees average $10.99 an hour, with just a few making the starting wage of $7.25 an hour, Wal-Mart spokesman John Bisio recently said.


As of 2004, Target in many cities had a starting salary of about $7 an hour, published reports said. A few Target workers outside Illinois said they recently started with salaries as low as $6.25 an hour, according to postings on the Target Union! (www.targetunion.org) Web site for store employees.
Rummana Hussain


Wal-Mart has threatened to cancel plans to build as many as 20 Chicago stores over the next five years if retailers are required to pay employees at least $10 an hour and $3 in benefits by July 1, 2010.

'It would be devastation for us'



Mayor Daley is taking the threat seriously. He has challenged aldermen who oppose Wal-Mart's 20-store expansion to describe how they would replace the 8,000 lost jobs.

Target failed to return calls on the admonition communicated to aldermen of the 5th, 9th and 34th wards in recent days. Target real estate executive Chris Case was scheduled to meet with African-American aldermen Thursday, but the meeting was canceled because of scheduling conflicts.

Ald. Carrie Austin (34th) said a Target pullout would be devastating to the 32-acre shopping mall at 119th and Marshfield that developers had hoped to build, with help from a $23 million city subsidy. Home Depot would likely follow Target out the door. As many as 1,000 jobs would be lost, Austin said.

"It would be devastation for us. Our largest employer in the 34th Ward is the Police Department. The second-largest for us would be Jewel. We have no other resources," Austin said.

Referring to the anti-Wal-Mart movement that gave birth to the big-box ordinance, Austin said, "If you want to bully up on Wal-Mart, you've got to bring in the other ones, and damned if you do on them. If they suffer from it, too bad. If you want to control Wal-Mart, you should go about that a different way."

Accused of 'bullying tactics'



Ald. Leslie Hairston (5th) said she has a letter of intent from Target to build a new store at Marquette and Stony Island in her ward. But the developer has told her the store is "on hold" and that Target may close existing Chicago stores if the big-box ordinance goes through.

Hairston called it little more than a scare tactic. And even if the threat turns out to be real, she's standing firm in support of organized labor.

"Wal-Mart and Target could pay their people a living wage. Then we wouldn't have this problem, and people could actually live on the money they made," Hairston said.

Ald. Joe Moore (49th), chief sponsor of the big-box ordinance, accused Target and Wal-Mart of using "bullying tactics" to stop a train that has already left the station.

"It's an idle threat. ... They're clearly trying to ... intimidate members of the City Council. I am very hopeful that members will hold firm. ... The votes are still there," Moore said. He predicted 33 votes for the ordinance, "maybe more," even though Daley has been buttonholing aldermen to try to stop it.

Ald. Howard Brookins (21st) is still searching for a big-box retailer to replace the Wal-Mart his colleagues nixed at 83rd and Stewart.

Brookins said Wal-Mart executives have told him they may take the lead of the riverboat casinos that ring Chicago and run free shuttle buses to their suburban stores if the big-box ordinance passes.

"I don't know if it was in jest, but they did say it. ... That is an option that they could employ. They could set up locations to have pickup and dropoff. I don't think that is that farfetched," Brookins said.


Why stop at $10 dollars an hour? They could live more comfortable with $30 dollars and hour.

http://suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-target14.html


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

Edited by lonestar2004 (07/14/06 05:49 PM)

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5858991 - 07/14/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This is a good article but there is much more to this issue. I will try to explain.

First of all, Chicago currently does not allow Walmart to build within the city limits. There is no walmart in Chicago, look it up. So the plan to bring in 20 stores to Chicago is a total change in policy.

The opponents of this do not want walmart/target here paying people $6.50 an hour or even $10 an hour, they just don't want them here, period. The businesses in these districts can charge high prices on goods due to an artificial lack of competition, and believe me they do. They fund the aldermen and this is reason why the aldermen are willing to sacrifice jobs to keep walmart out. Also, many of their constituents would rather collect welfare than work for $7 an hour, while the ones that do work are frightened into thinking they may loose their jobs so it is not a bad political move.

In Chicago, you follow the money and the connections to find out whats going on. There is only one political party so they essentially dictate policy.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5858992 - 07/14/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Fuck Chicago. :lol:

You utilize an effective business model and reap the benefits from doing so, and everyone wants a share of that. $7.25 an hour for daytime, basic cashier or salesfloor positions seems appropriate for the amount and nature of the work performed.

I make about $9.35 an hour and my girlfriend makes about $10.15 an hour (two hour differential for overnights, I personally lost that when I went to days, but did get a considerable base pay raise :wink:). We make enough money to live comfortably - we rent our three bedroom home, crank the air conditioning up, have several pets, two vehicles, DSL, and make enough money to buy shit we want and eat the food we want. :grin:

Of course, we don't have any children, certainly not three or four. I guess we have made wiser lifestyle choices, in proportion to the amount of money we make? :lol: I wouldn't want to raise a child if I was not able to provide for that child's survival in a sufficent manner, and I don't think it the best idea to create a child until one is established, for the welfare of that child. :shrug:

Perhaps the cost of living is greater in a city like Chicago.... all the more reason to move out of the city. :lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5859015 - 07/14/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps the cost of living is greater in a city like Chicago.... all the more reason to move out of the city. 




All the more reason to bring in a walmart so people can actually afford basic goods and still have enough left over for food.  :wink:

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Catalysis]
    #5859019 - 07/14/06 06:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So everyone has to drive outside city limits to shop at a Target or Walmart. Makes Sense.

What about Home depot or Lowe's?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Invisiblerod
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5859035 - 07/14/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Fuck the Targets, and Walmarts. Once they have run the mom, and pop stores out of business, you dont think the prices will start to rise?
Sure they will, same with the corporations, buying up the family
farms. That watermellon your buying now for a couple of dollars,
will start the upward spiral and who knows where the price will go.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Catalysis]
    #5859036 - 07/14/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting points. :grin:

So that makes sense, then - the cost of living is too high for someone working in an entry level position at Wal*Mart in a city such as Chicago because rules and regulations have kept Wal*Mart out so that the businesses in place can continue to overcharge. :smirk:

The adverse effects that Wal*Mart has on a community do not exist. As of May of this year, Wal*Mart has 45,373 associates in the state of Illinois. The average wage for regular, full-time associates in Illinois is $10.41 per hour. Wal*Mart's sales in Illinois collected $428.1 million in sales tax last year, and paid more than $79.9 million in state and local taxes last year... Also, "In 2005, Wal-Mart Stores, Inc spent $12,150,131,007 for merchandise and services with 2,704 suppliers in the state of Illinois. As a result of Wal-Mart's relationship with these suppliers, Wal-Mart supports 157,243 supplier jobs in the state of Illinois."

Hhhmm......

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Catalysis]
    #5859041 - 07/14/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Catalysis said:
All the more reason to bring in a walmart so people can actually afford basic goods and still have enough left over for food.  :wink:




See my last reply. You're right, makes sense. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: rod]
    #5859059 - 07/14/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

rod said:
Fuck the Targets, and Walmarts. Once they have run the mom, and pop stores out of business, you dont think the prices will start to rise?




Yes, that makes a lot of sense. :rolleyes:

I foresee it all... one day, Wal*Mart will drop the Nazi banners and start charging $50 for a gallon of milk... Its all part of the evil plan. No, I'm fucking serious, I've probably said too much already, and since I'm in on the secret, I might not make it home after work on Monday...  :eek:

Quote:


Sure they will, same with the corporations, buying up the family
farms. That watermellon your buying now for a couple of dollars,
will start the upward spiral and who knows where the price will go.




Well, the last time I scanned a watermelon, it said that the base price will be marked up to $75 a pound when we reveal the true evil. :tongue:

In all honesty, Wal*Mart accounts for less than 10% of all non-automotive retail sale in the United States. It'll be a little while before the Nazi banners drop and you spend an entire paycheck on one huge fucking watermelon. :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5859064 - 07/14/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There are actually home depots and a some best buys, but not many (however, to be fair, there is not much land in chicago). Its actually kind of funny. Walmart has about 50 stores literally on the chicago borders. Almost everyone who works and shops there is from chicago and when you walk into one, they will be so crowded that you can't even walk down the isles. There are many obvious lower income families shopping there and buying food or maybe even a television as well as lower-middle and middle who take the drive out there to make their hard earned money go a little farther.

Quote:

Once they have run the mom, and pop stores out of business, you dont think the prices will start to rise?




They have not really done this anywhere else, why would they do it in chicago?

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Invisiblerod
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5859076 - 07/14/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you see the light now?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: rod]
    #5859144 - 07/14/06 07:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Excuse me?

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Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5859159 - 07/14/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Correct me if I am wrong, but Chicago and organized crime seem to be correlated, at least, at one point in time they were, and organized crime was certainly involved in local politics. Now, what association does organized crime and labor unions share? Why do labor unions have the regard for Wal*Mart that they do?

The picture becomes a little more clear, eh? :rolleyes:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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OfflineCatalysis
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5859241 - 07/14/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Correct me if I am wrong, but Chicago and organized crime seem to be correlated, at least, at one point in time they were




They still are, only it has gone on for so long that it has become accepted and chicagoans now refer to them as "political armies".  Some interesting stuff goes on in chicago behind the scenes, thats for sure.

Anyways, there is at least one Target that I know of already on chicago so im pretty sure there is no moratorium on them.  The tax revenue that these stores generate must be immense and this is why mayor daley is fighting to build walmarts there.  :rolleyes:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Catalysis]
    #5859444 - 07/14/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Let's not forget the Kennedy election, or Kennedy's mob boss father... :lol:

It all ties in somehow. :grin:

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--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
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Like being here
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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Catalysis]
    #5859880 - 07/14/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I am a resident of chicago. I think I know of one target, but I wouldnt surprised if there are more. There are a few home depots and kmarts. And dozens of Jewel-Oscos and other large supermarkets.

the cost of living in chicago is extremely affordable relative to other similiar cities (i.e. LA, NYC, San Francisco).

I can see how wal-mart can negatively affect local, small business, so I am not in favor of them moving to our city. And, for the record, I am poor and wouldnt shop there anyway.

As for organized crime being involved with the city government, I have not heard of anything that substantial. This isnt the Capone-era. All governments are corrupt, but I dont see the organized crime influence here.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Vvellum]
    #5859939 - 07/14/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So......what do you think of the I-pass.......paying tolls on roads that are already funded by the federal government? Isn't that a fucking shakedown?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5859948 - 07/14/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

you have to pay tolls anyway. the i-pass just lets you bypass the traffic. if paying tolls means better highway maintaince, then I'm cool with it. But I dont know enough about the highway funding to form an opinion. do you know how it works?

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Vvellum]
    #5859969 - 07/14/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

not to be an asshole....but bro......tolls are complete bullshit......

You gonna make a civilian put an electronic pacemaker in his ride to go pass tolls expeditiously???

We have already paid for that in the form of taxes......

How much money do you think they bring in in tolls?????

Compare that to how much they spend of that money on the roads......tolls in chi town are a pure shakedown........!!!!!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5860004 - 07/14/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I guess, but until I see some reputable numbers and analysis of the inner workings, I really dont have an opinion.

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Invisibletak
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5860022 - 07/14/06 10:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Every toll road has an alternative route. They are very good for flow control, and increasing the amount of people who carpool.

I also think tolls roads are financed diffrently than normal roads. I know that toll road construction is alot diffrent than all other DOT construction because of where the funds come from.

But hey, i dont have any tolls roads here, so i cannot really have a valid opinion.


--------------------
The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.

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Offlinelonestar2004
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Vvellum]
    #5860190 - 07/14/06 11:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
I am a resident of Chicago.
As for organized crime being involved with the city government, I have not heard of anything that substantial. This isn't the Capone-era. All governments are corrupt, but I dont see the organized crime influence here.




Thats funny!!!!are you new to Chicago??? This news is about a week old.....

Sat Jul 8, 2:49 AM ET



CHICAGO - The convictions of Mayor Richard M. Daley's former patronage chief and three other one-time officials on federal charges are guaranteed to cast a shadow over next year's election, experts say.

And that shadow could grow if federal prosecutors obtain indictments against City Hall officials even closer to Daley, they say.

"Most prosecutors work their way up the ladder — and if this case continues, they won't be working their way down the ladder," Roosevelt University political scientist Paul Green said Friday, a day after the verdict.

Former Daley patronage chief Robert Sorich, 43, was convicted of two counts of mail fraud. Two other former officials were also convicted of mail fraud, while a fourth was convicted of lying to an FBI agent.

Prosecutors argued that Sorich presided over a scheme in which interviews were rigged and documents falsified to hide that the city payroll was loaded with armies of campaign workers in defiance of a court order that bars consideration of political affiliation in awarding most jobs on the city payroll.

The patronage case was an outgrowth of a scandal over payoffs to city officials from trucking companies. Forty-four people have been charged so far and 41 convicted. Two are awaiting trial, and one has died.http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060708/ap_on_re_us/patronage_trial

I'm sure Al Capone voted for Daley in the last election.

BTW what the hell is a "patronage chief"?


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5860443 - 07/15/06 12:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The adverse effects that Wal*Mart has on a community do not exist.

Do you work for Wal-mart?

Here's a few adverse effects:

Just as Wal-Mart exports sprawl, it exports bad labor practices. Uni-Comerce, the global trade union for commercial workers, characterizes Wal-Mart as “an obsessively anti-union company at home and abroad.” The company “builds its competitive advantage on low wages, poor benefits, and a squeeze on producers. Through predatory pricing, it can force both large and small competitors out of business,” according to Uni-Commerce. “Worldwide, Wal-Mart is the most serious threat to employment, wages, and working conditions in commerce.” The problem with low pay and unions is one of the main obstacles the company faces in its international expansion plans. The rift between unions and Wal-Mart, say financial analysts Fallstreet.com, is “intensifying with each global step the company makes.”

In the U.K, Wal-Mart’s takeover of Asda has had a devastating effect. Award-wining food journalist Joanna Blythman’s new book called "Shopped: The Shocking Power of British Supermarkets" published May 2004 outlines how: "I learned that UK supermarkets now jump to the tune of our second largest chain, Asda. Since 1999 when it was taken over by the biggest retailer in the world, the U.S. chain Wal-Mart, Asda’s strategy of ‘Every Day Low Pricing’, has triggered a supermarket price war in which chains without buying muscle are disadvantaged. In order to keep up with Asda, our leading chains in the UK must be ever more ruthless in the way they operate or else risk losing their place at the supermarket superpowers, top table".

This means that suppliers are squeezed, farmers are squeezed and supermarkets source from the cheapest overseas suppliers where labor, human rights and environmental standards are the lowest. Every week in the UK, 50 specialist shops like butchers and bakers are closing and one farmer or farm worker commits suicide. We enter a race to the bottom where everyone loses, especially the consumer.


http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/25.html

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5860451 - 07/15/06 12:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

umm, no I am not new. And yes, I keep up with the news. Your article has nothing to do with organized crime (the mob).

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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: rod]
    #5860541 - 07/15/06 01:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

rod said:
Fuck the Targets, and Walmarts. Once they have run the mom, and pop stores out of business, ...




I just don't see whats so good about mom and pop stores. Most of them in towns are in buildings a generation or two old, so it's got hardly any parking. After you've found a parking spot, you go into a store that doesn't have associates that are given "product knowledge". They can't afford a huge inventory like a Walmart, or a Lowes, or a Home Depot, so they've got to order your new belt sander. The prices that the mom/pop has to charge you are a few bucks higher than the other stores. After a five day wait, you've finally got your sander, after you drive back into the city, find a parking spot and go pay for it.

I don't find anything about that model that would compel me to shop there. I can drive to a decent sized parking lot, park my vehicle, grab a cart, go in one store (often open long hours) and buy almost everything I need. Since I do lots of projects, it's totally likely that I'll drive to Wal-Mart at 2 in the morning to pick some things up. Not a problem at all.

So, if I can't get a better reason to shop at a mom and pop other than because they need their jobs, then I'm going to go to the place thats more convenient and has a better price. The logic of "Pay more so that the business that seems more 'people friendly' stays in existance" is idiotic.


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5860672 - 07/15/06 03:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It's called bait and switch. Drive the other stores out of business then ramp your prices up.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5860868 - 07/15/06 06:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It's called bait and switch. Drive the other stores out of business then ramp your prices up.




Yet somehow, despite years and in some cases even decades of other stores being "driven out of business" by WalMart, their prices never ramp up. WalMart continues to operate -- year after year -- on the thinnest profit margins imaginable, never exceeding 4% and some years dipping as low as 2.5%. Will we have an opportunity to see this oft-predicted rise in prices in our lifetimes?



Phred


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5861017 - 07/15/06 07:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Do you work for Wal-mart?




Why, yes I do. I do believe that would grant me a more relevant perspective on Wal*Mart's labor practices, as well - considering that I actually labor for them, and have had labor relations training as an hourly supervisor. :wink:

Quote:


Just as Wal-Mart exports sprawl, it exports bad labor practices. Uni-Comerce, the global trade union for commercial workers, characterizes Wal-Mart as “an obsessively anti-union company at home and abroad.” The company “builds its competitive advantage on low wages, poor benefits, and a squeeze on producers.




Naturally, a trade union is going to characterize Wal*Mart in a negative manner, specifically because of the fact that that Wal*Mart generates a lot of profit and there isn't a union that is leeching that money for themselves. :lol:

Wal*Mart is not obsessively anti-union. I have never heard of Wal*Mart picketing unions, or spreading anti-union propaganda, or making movies decrying unions. As for this obsession with being anti-union, Wal*Mart simply does not feel that a union will be benefical for the company or its employees, and so it strives to ensure that its stores and operations do not create situations in which the possibillity of the formation of a union will arise.

What that does mean? Don't treat your associates like shit, respect them for who they are and what they contribute, don't violate labor laws. Then there isn't a problem for anyone, except the labor unions which want their money. :shrug:

As far as wages and benefits go, I'm pretty sure that both are equal or above the average wages and benefits provided by any other retail establishment. Not only that, but Wal*Mart is increasing the amount and quality of its benefits, especially for part-time positions which previously didn't have as much access to benefits.

As far as the "squeeze on suppliers", I think that it makes sense that, when a supplier begins working with Wal*Mart, they are going to sell more and more of their product, and the supplier is going to need to supply more and more. Hhhm... I wonder how that works? :rolleyes:

Quote:


Through predatory pricing, it can force both large and small competitors out of business,” according to Uni-Commerce.




That is to say, because Wal*Mart has a more effective business model, they do better than their competitors? :lol: If you can't play the game....

Where I live, we have two Wal*Marts (I believe they are planning on building a third in the next few years). There is a Target, quite a few Hy-Vee's (grocery store), two Shopkos (retail chain as well) a couple of Menard's, a few Ace Hardwares, Sunshine Foods (local grocery chain, at least two locations), a few other kinds of grocery stores, not to mention all of the other stores that we competition shop, and the only one of them that is going out of business is K-Mart. :smirk:

Quote:


The problem with low pay and unions is one of the main obstacles the company faces in its international expansion plans. The rift between unions and Wal-Mart, say financial analysts Fallstreet.com, is “intensifying with each global step the company makes.”




Oh no, the unions are upset with Wal*Mart!  :eek:

Admist all of the labor union propaganda that is spewing forth here, please inform me as to why exactly a labor union is a benefical thing to the associates of a retail establishment such as Wal*Mart.

Quote:


Since 1999 when it was taken over by the biggest retailer in the world, the U.S. chain Wal-Mart, Asda’s strategy of ‘Every Day Low Pricing’, has triggered a supermarket price war in which chains without buying muscle are disadvantaged. In order to keep up with Asda, our leading chains in the UK must be ever more ruthless in the way they operate or else risk losing their place at the supermarket superpowers, top table".




Yes, that is something known as business. Those more able to compete are more apt to survive, while those who are not able to effectively do business are less apt to survive. That is business. Don't like it, don't do business. :tongue:

Quote:


We enter a race to the bottom where everyone loses, especially the consumer.




The only one that is losing is the labor union, and that loss is the equivalent of giving a dog a flea bath.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Phred]
    #5861023 - 07/15/06 07:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Yet somehow, despite years and in some cases even decades of other stores being "driven out of business" by WalMart, their prices never ramp up. WalMart continues to operate -- year after year -- on the thinnest profit margins imaginable, never exceeding 4% and some years dipping as low as 2.5%. Will we have an opportunity to see this oft-predicted rise in prices in our lifetimes?





In 2012, we will drop the Nazi banners. :evil: When customers go into the store, we will tow all of their vehicles. Our people greeters will pick pocket them, etc. etc. etc. :lol:

Oh, and also, Children's Miracle Network donations will be mandatory, and department managers will have the right, agreed to by entering the store, to take customer's carts into the backroom and load them up with all excessive overstock resulting from the fucked up replenishment system. :lol:

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If I should die this very moment
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Like being here
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:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Edited by fireworks_god (07/15/06 08:08 AM)

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OfflineMicrocosmatrix
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5861043 - 07/15/06 07:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You post in P&S, so I know you're right.


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: lonestar2004]
    #5861419 - 07/15/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ive waited for this for a long time..  Other big box stores joining Wall-Mart to fight the unions... :thumbup:

Forcing businesses to pick up the tab for employee medical costs just isnt the answer to the health care problem we have in the US.  They tried that shit here in California but much worse.  Any business with 20 or more employees would be responsible for 60% of medical costs for the employees.  The more employees the more responsible the business was for picking up the tab, all the way up to 80%.

Overnight something like that could ruin an entire cities economy and force out all businesses big and small.

What the unions dont tell people is that each individual big box store dont actually rake in the billions of dollars like they want you to believe.  They do make a profit but more like a million a year.  While thats allot of money and sure they could afford to pay $200,000 of that each year for employee health care they just shouldnt have to. 

These companies need high profits to expand and grow, buy more real estate and open more stores so that they can hire more employees and yes, make more profits.

Home Depot, Lowes, Local Grocers, warehouse workers, office workers, who else.  They all could fall in the category of having to provide benefits and they will just simply relocate if they were forced to pay up.


Their is one other solution to Americas health care crisis..    Canadian citizenship cards for everyone. :grin:


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Edited by GabbaDj (07/15/06 10:46 AM)

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5861459 - 07/15/06 10:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I suggest watching the frontline documentary "Is Walmart Good for America?". Here is a torrent link: http://tinyurl.com/ksf42

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5861712 - 07/15/06 12:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Wal*Mart simply does not feel that a union will be benefical for the company or its employees, and so it strives to ensure that its stores and operations do not create situations in which the possibillity of the formation of a union will arise.


No shit  :smirk:

It's pretty obvious that the employers arn't going to want something that gives their employees more power. That's basic. 

Don't treat your associates like shit, respect them for who they are and what they contribute, don't violate labor laws.

If you respect your workers for what they are why be so skittish about letting them form unions if they want to? Or is this "respect your workers as long as they obey you like slaves"?

please inform me as to why exactly a labor union is a benefical thing to the associates of a retail establishment such as Wal*Mart.


I'm not sure who you mean by "associates", but unions are of obvious benefit to workers which is presumably why Walmart are so keen that they don't exist.

Those more able to compete are more apt to survive, while those who are not able to effectively do business are less apt to survive.

Or putting it another way, those who don't give a fuck about the environment or anything else will survive. Those who do, won't. I'm not convinced that's a good long term model to follow.

As far as the "squeeze on suppliers", I think that it makes sense that, when a supplier begins working with Wal*Mart, they are going to sell more and more of their product, and the supplier is going to need to supply more and more. Hhhm... I wonder how that works?

Trouble is the only way the supplier can supply more and more at the same price is stuffing the animals full of more growth hormones, feeding them on low quality food and using more and more pesticides. Not too good for the health of nation or the environment in the long run.

The only one that is losing is the labor union

And the producers and the environment and the consumers eating piss-poor food produced as cheaply as possible. Which means pretty much all of us.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: GabbaDj]
    #5861723 - 07/15/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

These companies need high profits to expand and grow, buy more real estate and open more stores

You forgot "so they can give the directors enormous pay rises year on year and million dollar bonus's for doing nothing".

Tell you what. Just take the pay rise and bonus away from a handful of directors each year and put that towards the cost of health care for the workers. That's not going to ruin the company is it. The director has to buy a smaller yacht and the workers get healthcare. Simple.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5861771 - 07/15/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It's pretty obvious that the employers arn't going to want something that gives their employees more power. That's basic.




A union does not give employees more power, sorry.

Quote:


If you respect your workers for what they are why be so skittish about letting them form unions if they want to? Or is this "respect your workers as long as they obey you like slaves"?




That's the fucking point, they don't want to, because there is no need to, if proper working conditions are maintained. A union is detrimental to the success of the company, thus, it is also detrimental to the success of the employees of that company.

Quote:


I'm not sure who you mean by "associates", but unions are of obvious benefit to workers which is presumably why Walmart are so keen that they don't exist.




You didn't answer my question. I asked you to explain why a labor union is benefical to employees of a company. You assert that it is obvious, but have not actually demonstrated what is obvious or why it is obvious. You automatically assume a labor union must be beneficial to associates, but apparently do not even know what a labor union is.

Quote:


Or putting it another way, those who don't give a fuck about the environment or anything else will survive. Those who do, won't. I'm not convinced that's a good long term model to follow.




That doesn't make sense. As the environment sustains our existance, taking action that serves as a detriment to the environment will not provide for survival. I'm not sure how being capable of having lower prices than someone else equates into destroying the environment. :wtf:

Quote:


Trouble is the only way the supplier can supply more and more at the same price is stuffing the animals full of more growth hormones, feeding them on low quality food and using more and more pesticides. Not too good for the health of nation or the environment in the long run.




Then there is a discrepancy between supply and demand. Take that one up with the customers, my friend - they get what they want no matter who they have to go through to get it. :lol: Start a campaign of enlightenment targeted towards the customers. :wink: I'm sorry, but you cannot attribute unethical practices performed by the supplier as being Wal*Mart's responsibility. :shocked:

Quote:


And the producers and the environment and the consumers eating piss-poor food produced as cheaply as possible. Which means pretty much all of us.




No, just the unions. :sorry:

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5861792 - 07/15/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

A union does not give employees more power, sorry.

:boxerface:

That's the fucking point, they don't want to, because there is no need to, if proper working conditions are maintained

And if they arn't? What the fuck do you do then with no union?

I asked you to explain why a labor union is benefical to employees of a company

Better working conditions, better pay.

As the environment sustains our existance, taking action that serves as a detriment to the environment will not provide for surviva 

But it provides for profits. And corporate directors behind high iron fences in mansions will be the last to feel any suffering from wrecking the environment so I wouldn't rely on them to help.

I'm sorry, but you cannot attribute unethical practices performed by the supplier as being Wal*Mart's responsibility.

I'm sorry but you can.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5861986 - 07/15/06 02:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
:boxerface:




Oh, I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you were actually going to engage in discussion and provide examples of exactly how labor unions empower workers. Perhaps if you were to actually do so, we could gain some ground in understanding this, but if you don't have anything to bring to the table beyond empty assertions, then I guess we'll have to leave it at that. :shrug:

Quote:


And if they arn't? What the fuck do you do then with no union?




Well, if you work at Wal*Mart, you utilize the Open Door policy to address concerns with those above you. If you are not satisfied with the working conditions, then you don't work there. Oppurtunity is great.

Let me ask you these, what the fuck do you do with a union? Do you have an answer?

Quote:


Better working conditions, better pay.




Sorry, but those aren't exactly effective answers. A labor union simply cannot guarantee better working conditions, or increased wages.

Quote:


But it provides for profits. And corporate directors behind high iron fences in mansions will be the last to feel any suffering from wrecking the environment so I wouldn't rely on them to help.




Corporate directors that are interested in profits aren't going to destroy the environment that supports the customers that provide those profits, eh? Obviously, there has been short-sighted destruction of the environment, but the thought of human beings rendering their environment unliveable isn't reflective of the reality of the situation.

Quote:


I'm sorry but you can.




"Don't blame me for injecting cows with hormones, Wal*Mart made me do it!". :lol:

Riiight.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5862037 - 07/15/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


BENTONVILLE, Ark., June 16, 2006 – John Menzer, vice chairman of Wal-Mart Stores Inc., will speak at the CIES 50th World Food Business Summit on June 23 in Paris, France. At this summit, retail and supplier executives will discuss new strategic concepts and opportunities regarding the overall direction of the food business on a global scale.  Menzer will address the role of business in the 21st century, emphasizing that businesses can be both efficient and profitable while also selling products and adopting practices that are environmentally friendly.

“We at Wal-Mart recognize that being both an efficient business and environmentally friendly are goals that can work together,” said Menzer. “We understand the importance of utilizing renewable energy sources, creating less waste, and offering our customers access to sustainable products.”




Excerpt from a press release...

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5862184 - 07/15/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sorry, but those aren't exactly effective answers. A labor union simply cannot guarantee better working conditions, or increased wages.




guarantee? no. but they sure can fight for them and have been quite successful at that. some unions are corrupt, but that does not mean they all are useless. have you ever worked in a union shop before? I have.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Vvellum]
    #5862257 - 07/15/06 04:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
guarantee? no. but they sure can fight for them and have been quite successful at that. some unions are corrupt, but that does not mean they all are useless. have you ever worked in a union shop before? I have.




No, I have not worked in a workplace that has been unionized. I do realize, however, that a union might be able to secure better wages, but there are also a myriad of negative effects from being unionized. Mandatory promotion by seniority is common, is it not? I would hate to be an engaged employee who would lose oppurtunities for advancement because of a union. I've been employed with Wal*Mart for two years now, with no real previous work history, and I have been an hourly supervisor for months now, managing two departments of the store.

I also feel that the inherent divisiveness between management and employees is unnecessary and counter-productive for all involved. Voting in a labor union is, essentially, creating a new management that struggles for power with the company management in place. I do not understand how a company can be as effective in its operations with such a structure in place - naturally, anything that has a detrimental effect on the company itself has a detrimental effect on the employees themselves.

In my eyes, the only need for a labor union is when labor laws are being violated. Less than 10% of the work force is unionized. Wal*Mart's success depends entirely upon the role that the associates in the stores play in servicing the customer - Wal*Mart isn't going to create a negative work environment, as that would be biting the hand that feeds. Customers aren't going to want to shop in a store that has a negative atmosphere resulting from its employees.

A union certainly might be necessary in other fields or industries, but it clearly is not in retail, especially Wal*Mart. I've personally witnessed supervisors receive disciplinary action as result of associates utilizing the communication resources that are granted to us as an absolute right when the work environment becomes improper. It works, which is exactly why there isn't a union in Wal*Mart stores.

Unions certainly seem to think that Wal*Mart should be unionized, although apparently Wal*Mart associates do not. It certainly seems to make sense that unions would love to see Wal*Mart unionized. 1.8 million associates would mean an amazing amount of union dues, would it not? :shocked:

I'd love to be the head of a union, man... tons of money for being a business that leeches off of another business. Perhaps in certain situations, they can provide a service to employees that is otherwise not available to the employees, but, with Wal*Mart, that service is the absolute, undeniable right of each associate, to speak for themself, and to follow up with it if not satisifed as far as they wish, without retaliation. No need for parasites here. :lol:

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If I should die this very moment
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5862503 - 07/15/06 06:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

As a general question, what do you think it's like working at GM now, knowing that the death knell due to unions is right around the corner? The hell with right around the corner, it has been rung. Endless concessions and pension crapouts. Meanwhile, all the union bigs have collected their money.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5862564 - 07/15/06 06:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Mandatory promotion by seniority is common, is it not?




I would not say common. I was promoted when I was in a union and there were others that had been around longer than I was.

Quote:

I also feel that the inherent divisiveness between management and employees is unnecessary and counter-productive for all involved.




a union acts as a bridge between both parties. a division of labor exists without unions.

Quote:

In my eyes, the only need for a labor union is when labor laws are being violated.




And what should should employees do if labor laws are not being adhered to if there is no union?

Quote:

Customers aren't going to want to shop in a store that has a negative atmosphere resulting from its employees.




explain the existence of sweatshops, then.

Quote:

I've personally witnessed supervisors receive disciplinary action as result of associates utilizing the communication resources that are granted to us as an absolute right when the work environment becomes improper. It works, which is exactly why there isn't a union in Wal*Mart stores.




if the company can take care of itself, then the union would not need to step in.

Quote:

Unions certainly seem to think that Wal*Mart should be unionized, although apparently Wal*Mart associates do not.




source?

Quote:


I'd love to be the head of a union, man... tons of money for being a business that leeches off of another business.




not all unions are leeches. many provide benefit where there is no avenue for such benefits.

Quote:

Perhaps in certain situations, they can provide a service to employees that is otherwise not available to the employees, but, with Wal*Mart, that service is the absolute, undeniable right of each associate, to speak for themself, and to follow up with it if not satisifed as far as they wish, without retaliation.




and how strong of a voice does a sole individual has? I doubt your voice is as strong as you make it to be.

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Vvellum]
    #5862575 - 07/15/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

the problem with unions is corruption, not the existence of unions and how they operate. dont throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5862580 - 07/15/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Unions certainly seem to think that Wal*Mart should be unionized, although apparently Wal*Mart associates do not.



I have a friend who worked at Wal-Mart for years, and despite being the most right-wing friend I know, he was strongly in favor of Wal-Mart employees unionizing. I've never met a guy who hated Wal-Mart more than him.


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5863013 - 07/15/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The ONLY reason Unions are pushing sooo hard to unionize Wall-Mart is because they are the nations largest employer. 

Unions say that they want to unionize all of Wall-Marts employees to give them all the benefits that a union can bring, but thats total bull shit.

Unions make EVERY dollar they have from its members.  Unions dont buy or sell anything and they arent a business of any kind yet they are worth tens of billions of dollars. 

Unionizing Wall-Mart would make the unions, More specifically my union the United Food and Commercial Food Workers Union the richest, largest and most powerful non profit activist group in the world.

To answer some questions..

Yes, unions do give employees more power by setting rules and regulations that the company MUST follow, if they dont laws are in place to punish these businesses.  Laws that go beyond federal law that non union businesses dont have to answer too. 

They DO make working conditions better and safer by defining job descriptions.  People ONLY have to do whats described in their job description and can refuse any other work without fear of getting terminated.  Sooo lets say that my boss came up to me and told me to clean the bathrooms.  I could laugh in his face and tell him to go fuck himself and their isnt a damn thing he could do about it.  This keeps the work place safe because only the right people are told to do the right job.

In general Unions would get people more money and guarantee weekly hours based on their job and most unions take over the roll of overseeing medical benefits which is good for the business but still the business will have to cough up the cash to pay the insurer.

The whole seniority thing is just bull shit, so is the idea that employees are REQUIRED to join the union and dues are taken straight out of their checks.  I pay $14.95 a week or about $60 a month.  I dont even have cable yet still I pay my union $720 a year.  Still Id rather have cable :grin:

The one great thing about unions though is that they are the only politically active group who works to protect workers rights.  If not for unions laws would be passed left and right that are unfair to employees and unions play a LARGE part in making sure these laws never get passed.


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OfflinexDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Silversoul]
    #5863449 - 07/15/06 10:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Unions certainly seem to think that Wal*Mart should be unionized, although apparently Wal*Mart associates do not.



I have a friend who worked at Wal-Mart for years, and despite being the most right-wing friend I know, he was strongly in favor of Wal-Mart employees unionizing. I've never met a guy who hated Wal-Mart more than him.




Any guy who works for Wal-Mart as an associate for "years" and hates Wal-Mart more than anyone obviously is a winner at the game called life. Why didn't he quit? Was it the best possible solution for him?


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5863457 - 07/15/06 10:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

He did quit. He now works in an auto parts store. And he refuses to shop at Wal-Mart anymore.


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Silversoul]
    #5863475 - 07/15/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You've answered none of my comments. How long did he work as a entry-level position for a place that he "hated"? I mean, how seriously should we take this guys story and how much creedence should we give to it if he's been working at the most dead-end job in the world for "years", hating it the whole time?



So, when he was at Wal-Mart, was it the bets possible opportunity for him?


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5863764 - 07/16/06 12:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

do you really think it is so unusual for people to work at dead-end jobs and to hate their jobs? sometimes people have to work crap jobs to make ends meet - it's quite common, actually.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5864151 - 07/16/06 02:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Oh, I'm sorry, I was under the impression that you were actually going to engage in discussion and provide examples of exactly how labor unions empower workers. Perhaps if you were to actually do so, we could gain some ground in understanding this, but if you don't have anything to bring to the table beyond empty assertions, then I guess we'll have to leave it at that.

If you're going to say something as nonsensical as "Unions don't give employees more power" there's really no reply to that. You're obviously wrong. Walmart certainly know what power unions give to workers which is why they don't want them.

Well, if you work at Wal*Mart, you utilize the Open Door policy to address concerns with those above you

Get real. What point is there to an "open-door" policy if you want something the employers don't want you to have? What do you do then?

If you are not satisfied with the working conditions, then you don't work there. Oppurtunity is great.


Far better to simply have a union and the power to improve working conditions than having to go from slave labour conditions to slave labour conditions tho. People learned that a hundred years ago.

Let me ask you these, what the fuck do you do with a union? Do you have an answer?


I've told you once. Better working conditions, better pay.

A labor union simply cannot guarantee better working conditions, or increased wages.


Not guarantee no, but they give you a damn better chance than if you were on your own.

Corporate directors that are interested in profits aren't going to destroy the environment that supports the customers that provide those profits

Why not if that is where the greatest profits lay? You've already said "That's business". If Wal-mart can make more profits than anyone else by destroying the environment they will destroy the environment and drive the others out of business. That's business.

"Don't blame me for injecting cows with hormones, Wal*Mart made me do it!".

You need to talk to a farmer about this. You'll learn a lot.

I've been employed with Wal*Mart for two years now, with no real previous work history, and I have been an hourly supervisor for months now, managing two departments of the store.


Ah, i get it now. You're a manager at walmart. That explains everything :grin:

anything that has a detrimental effect on the company itself has a detrimental effect on the employees themselves.


Trouble is the managers deciding wage levels and working conditions for themselves will use different criteria and say "We have to pay each other fortunes otherwise it will be detrimental to the company". It's one rule for the directors and another for the workers. That's why unions are so vital.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5864192 - 07/16/06 03:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Hey, how do you explain this? Wal-mart support unions as long as you live in China!  :smirk:

Wal-Mart has finally found a union it can live with.

Up to now America's largest employer has opposed every effort of its employees to form a union. Wal-Mart doesn't recognize unions; it doesn't even recognize "employees." The proper Wal-Mart name for its workers is "associates," a term that connotes higher status and collegiality and that actually means lower pay and workplace autocracy. For the privilege of associating themselves with Wal-Mart, its employees are paid so little that many can't afford the health insurance the company generously allows them to buy. One study of health care in Las Vegas revealed that a plurality of that city's employed Medicaid recipients worked at Wal-Mart.

But that was the old Wal-Mart. Last week Wal-Mart announced that if its associates wanted a union to represent them, that would be hunky-dory -- as long as the union was affiliated with the All-China Federation of Trade Unions, a body dominated by the Chinese Communist Party. The official statement was simple and seemingly unambiguous: "Should associates request formation of a union, Wal-Mart China would respect their wishes."

Wal-Mart America has made no such declaration, of course. Why it deems its 20,000 Chinese associates who work in its 40 Chinese stores worthy of representation while its million U.S. employees can't be trusted with the right to represent themselves is a good question.

We can, I think, dismiss suspicions of anti-anyone-but-Chinese racism as such. The answer, then, must lie in Wal-Mart's preference for old-line communist-dominated unions in authoritarian communist states over any other kinds of unions anywhere else. America's unions, which Wal-Mart despises, have a long history of anticommunism, and today's AFL-CIO is the staunchest defender on the American political scene of democratic rights in communist nations such as China. For that matter, unions affiliated with reformed or post-communist parties outside of the few remaining communist states have gotten nowhere with Wal-Mart either. Only in China, with its inimitable blend of Dickensian capitalism and authoritarian communism, has Wal-Mart found a union to its liking.

And small wonder. Unions affiliated with the All-China Federation seldom push for wage increases or safer machinery. Indeed, the locals are often headed by someone from company management.

The leaders of genuine workers' movements in China don't end up running the All-China Federation. They're to be found in prison, in exile or in hiding.

Allowing a democratic union movement to form would threaten both Dickensian capitalism and authoritarian communism, and diminish some of China's competitive advantage over other low-wage but not authoritarian nations in Southeast Asia, Central America and elsewhere. Such a development would be anathema to both the Politburo and Wal-Mart's board of directors. It would introduce the concept of free choice and the prospects of higher living standards not just to Wal-Mart's 20,000 Chinese store employees but to the far larger number of Chinese workers laboring in poverty-wage servitude to stitch clothing for the contractors, subcontractors and sub-subcontractors whose products fill Wal-Mart's shelves.

Bentonville regards the prospect of employee free association and organization within its stores with the same fear and loathing that Beijing feels at the prospect of free elections in China. Anti-union American employers can't imprison pro-union workers, but exile is a real possibility. Troublemakers are free to go. According to Cornell labor relations professor Kate Bronfenbrenner, at least 5 percent of workers involved in unionization campaigns are fired, which is both quite illegal and quite routine: Companies would rather pay the nominal fines than pay their workers higher wages and lose the absolute control they hold over the work lives of their employees.

The noblest of the Bush administration's goals, surely, is that of spreading democracy. If it's serious about that task, though, there are places closer to home than the Middle East that could use a little democracy-spreading, and the American workplace is high on that list. Strengthening labor law would make it harder for employers such as Wal-Mart to thwart their workers' desire for an organized voice on the job. When America's largest employer feels more affinity for the political legacy of Mao Zedong than for that of Franklin D. Roosevelt, it's time to start democratizing our own back yard.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23725-2004Nov30.html

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Vvellum]
    #5864369 - 07/16/06 04:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
And what should should employees do if labor laws are not being adhered to if there is no union?




Well, if they have no means by which to address and resolve these issues within the company themselves, then, by all means, vote in a union. It might work out to the workers' advantage. Perhaps they will receive some concessions. Perhaps they will lose them later on. Perhaps the company will still be able to effectively perform in a manner that will ensure the company's continued success. :shrug:

The only thing that is really guaranteed is that the union will benefit regardless. Lots and lots of money. :wink:

Quote:


explain the existence of sweatshops, then.




Talk to the suppliers about that one. :lol:

Quote:


if the company can take care of itself, then the union would not need to step in.




Exactly, a union will serve as a detriment for the company to take care of itself, because there will be an organization instilled that is not the company, influencing and obstructing the decisions it makes.

Quote:


source?




It takes, what, 30% of the employees of a particular establishment to vote in a union? A store can't squash the formation of a union - attempting to do automatically results in the formation of a union, as it is a violation of labor laws. The company can only prevent circumstances that would bring the possibillity of a formation of a union - it obviously does so, or we would have stores forming unions, eh?

So, my source is reality. :smirk:

Quote:


not all unions are leeches. many provide benefit where there is no avenue for such benefits.




Possibly. There certainly is not any clear advantage to a union.

Quote:


and how strong of a voice does a sole individual has? I doubt your voice is as strong as you make it to be.




It depends on what exactly the sole individual is voicing, for one thing. If the voice clearly demonstrates that there is an issue that needs to be resolved, and that issue is reflective of reality, then it will be. Secondly, more than one individual can work together to address concerns. It happens, I've witnessed it happen, and it has worked. Wal*Mart clearly is not stupid, and is not going to allow circumstances that could result in a union to ferment, as it has its interests as a company - a union will obstruct their ability to perform. Thus, the associates are given avenues through which to address concerns. :grin:

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5864378 - 07/16/06 05:02 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
As a general question, what do you think it's like working at GM now, knowing that the death knell due to unions is right around the corner?  The hell with right around the corner, it has been rung.  Endless concessions and pension crapouts.  Meanwhile, all the union bigs have collected their money.




Ding ding ding. :lol:

Look at the airline industry. Southwest seems to be the only airline that meets some amount of success, from my limited understanding, and it is no coincidence that they are the less unionized airline corporation. This is an interesting read on Southwest  web page.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5864419 - 07/16/06 05:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
If you're going to say something as nonsensical as "Unions don't give employees more power" there's really no reply to that. You're obviously wrong.




Wow, you've told me that I'm obviously wrong twice now, labeled my response as being nonsensical, but you have still not actually demonstrated why it is wrong, or answered the question.

Now, I repeat, unions do not necessarily give employees more power. Please enlighten me as to why exactly I am so obviously wrong in making that statement. I don't think I'll hold my breath...

Quote:


Walmart certainly know what power unions give to workers which is why they don't want them.




Or, Wal*Mart certainly knows the detrimental effects having its workforce unionized will have on its ability to perform as a successful, growing company. As every company wishes to succeed, it does not want to create situations in which its workforce could potentially become unionized.

Well, holy shit, there was an ounce of sense in that. :shocked: Time to accuse me of obviously being wrong without actually contributing anything to the discussion that would validate one's point. :wink:

Quote:


Get real. What point is there to an "open-door" policy if you want something the employers don't want you to have? What do you do then?




You live with it or go find another job? :wtf:

No, wait, better yet, you go form a union. Then you can do less and make demands for more. If there are serious problems, such as hostile working conditions or a severe lack of appropriate wages, then by all means, but this clearly isn't the situation.

Quote:


Far better to simply have a union and the power to improve working conditions than having to go from slave labour conditions to slave labour conditions tho. People learned that a hundred years ago.




Firstly, having a union does not equate into having the power to improve working conditions. It simply means that one has established a means by which one can negotiate to improve working conditions. The company can still say "fuck you". Then you can strike without pay. Whoo hoo! :rolleyes:

Quote:


I've told you once. Better working conditions, better pay.




Okay, so your whole point is that a union equals better working conditions and better pay. You get a union, you get better working conditions and you get more pay. That is what you do with a union. Great. Wow. That is truly reflective of the actuality of the situation. :lol:

Quote:


Why not if that is where the greatest profits lay? You've already said "That's business". If Wal-mart can make more profits than anyone else by destroying the environment they will destroy the environment and drive the others out of business. That's business.




Well, quite apparently, that isn't Wal*Mart's business, then. Oh, wait, I forgot about the toxic waste that we dump in the corn field behind the store...

Quote:


You need to talk to a farmer about this. You'll learn a lot.




You know this from talking to a farmer about this, then? When did you talk to a farmer, and what did he tell you? Any way you can send me his phone number, so I can talk to the same farmer you surely talked to, so I can learn what you have learned?

Quote:


Ah, i get it now. You're a manager at walmart. That explains everything :grin:




Of course it explains everything. It means that I experience the working conditions at Wal*Mart, and it means that I have been trained on our stance as it pertains to unions and how we prevent situations that could result in a vote on a union. We cannot engage in any action that would violate labor laws. We can't bust unions. :lol: We can simply respect the individual, and it works. :shrug:

Quote:


Trouble is the managers deciding wage levels and working conditions for themselves will use different criteria and say "We have to pay each other fortunes otherwise it will be detrimental to the company". It's one rule for the directors and another for the workers. That's why unions are so vital.




Yes, it is vital for employees to pay fortunes to more management. :lol: One management team is enough. :smirk:

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5864512 - 07/16/06 07:03 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


Far better to simply have a union and the power to improve working conditions than having to go from slave labour conditions to slave labour conditions tho. People learned that a hundred years ago.




There are labor laws and minimum wage laws that make sure no one does slave labor. Also, employment in the United States is at-will and one can quit whenever they like if the pay or labor environment is not to their likings.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Redstorm]
    #5864628 - 07/16/06 08:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Exactly. Being employed is a mutual agreement in which one agrees to perform services and fufill expectations in exchange for payment.

Websites like wakeupwalmart.com proclaim that Wal*Mart's wages are not high enough. Well, if you have a family of three and are working a part-time cashier position as a sole means of income, then that's your fucking problem, eh? If you are unskilled and working an entry level position job in retail, and your income from that job is the only means of support for the entire family, then perhaps you shouldn't have three fucking children? :lol:

I'd suggest not spreading your legs and later doing so again to birth a few children when you are not in a position to amply support those children. Develop some skills that one can apply in better paying jobs first, maintain a relationship with another human being that can produce more income, or just don't have children... in other words, develop some common fucking sense. :smirk:

There are those who will not take responsibility for themself, and will want others to give them everything for nothing. Consider yourself lucky that someone has given you an oppurtunity in the first place. :wink:

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5864703 - 07/16/06 09:01 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Well, if you have a family of three and are working a part-time cashier position as a sole means of income, then that's your fucking problem, eh?




Thats a good point. I make plenty of money to live comfortably by myself but if I had kids right now I would be poor. I don't think a "living wage" should necessarily take into account yourself plus three other people who don't work at all.

Do you guys really think walmart should be paying stock boys enough money to support an entire family? Do you think that work is worth that much money?

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Catalysis]
    #5864713 - 07/16/06 09:08 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think I am going to go get a job as a dishwasher at a local inn, give birth to three children, and raise hell about needing a union because they don't pay me enough. :lol:

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5864872 - 07/16/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Wow, you've told me that I'm obviously wrong twice now, labeled my response as being nonsensical, but you have still not actually demonstrated why it is wrong, or answered the question.

Now, I repeat, unions do not necessarily give employees more power. Please enlighten me as to why exactly I am so obviously wrong in making that statement. I don't think I'll hold my breath...




I answered your questions. Read my reply above..

Unions DO get better conditions for employees in all sorts of areas. You should see my union contract, it requires everything from a well stocked break room to clean uniforms and proper supplies for doing the jobs of the store.

Once a month an outside knife sharpening service is required to come in and sharpen all the stores knives, if we ever run out of aprons I can refuse to work without fear of punishment until they provide me with one, same goes for protective clothing and even cotton gloves for those of us who work in cold conditions. ALL REQUIRED.

All union contracts clearly defines the companies duties and responsibilities to the employee as well as the employees responsibilities to the company. The union invests allot of time in letting employees know these rights and lots of effort is made to force the stores to comply.

When my store changed its laundry service and went from weekly to biweekly, a call was made and a union rep was out the next day to tell the store manager that he cant do that, its against the contract and the following week we had the old service back. Its our right to have these things and its the stores responsibility to provide them and its the union that enforces these things for us.

One of the best things built into the average union contract is seniority percentage requirements, and guaranteed working hours. For every new employee earning a starting wage their must be one full time experienced employee making maximum wage and in my case I am guaranteed 8 hours a day AND 40 hours a week. If I get called in on my day off they MUST offer my 8 hours that day at time and a half AND any 6th day of work will also be Time and a half and the seventh day will be triple time guaranteed. Just an incentive to keep employers from overworking employees or scheduling people for random and shitty work shifts.

Plus a union will teach ALL the employees about all these rights and all the benefits they have coming to them as well as having a grievance process that takes care of any problems that do come up quickly and efficiently.

Do any non union jobs have that sort of checks and balances system?


Time is money and Wall-Mart dont want unions in their stores because Unions will cost the company money.. LOTS and LOTS of money. They will have to spend tens of thousands of hours dealing with the unions and hire new representatives, lawyers, negotiators and experts just to deal with a union. Plus they will be held accountable for everything, all sorts of costs will go up through the roof in every area of operation. Thts just how it is and thats why they dont want the nighmare of having to deal with it..

But as Ive said before, my union is the one making the big push to unionize wall-mart and if they ever succeed they will then be the biggest, baddest, richest mother fuckers on the planet and nothing could stop them then.


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: GabbaDj]
    #5864923 - 07/16/06 10:19 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

GabbaDj said:
I answered your questions.  Read my reply above..




I was replying to Alex. You must be paranoid. :tongue:

Quote:


Time is money and  Wall-Mart dont want unions in their stores because Unions will cost the company money..  LOTS and LOTS of money.  They will have to spend tens of thousands of hours dealing with the unions and hire new representatives, lawyers, negotiators and experts just to deal with a union.  Plus they will be held accountable for everything, all sorts of costs will go up through the roof in every area of operation.  Thts just how it is and thats why they dont want the nighmare of having to deal with it..




Exactly, it would seriously hurt the company's performance. :grin:

The examples you have given of how a union benefits the workers are great - it is refreshing to have someone provide an understanding of what a union actually is and does, instead of making assertions with no substantiation. :lol: In my experience, Wal*Mart has no problems with ensuring a proper work environment, which is probably why stores aren't unionized.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Redstorm]
    #5865198 - 07/16/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Quote:


Far better to simply have a union and the power to improve working conditions than having to go from slave labour conditions to slave labour conditions tho. People learned that a hundred years ago.




There are labor laws and minimum wage laws that make sure no one does slave labor. Also, employment in the United States is at-will and one can quit whenever they like if the pay or labor environment is not to their likings.




Obviously the labor laws and minimum wage arn't enough for the workers at walmart. Otherwise they wouldn't want unions.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5865210 - 07/16/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You live with it or go find another job?

Why not simply form a union and make sure you're paid a decent wage and provided decent working conditions? It's not like Walmart can't afford it. If they expect you to do the job they should expect to pay decent money.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5865213 - 07/16/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You got stats showing that a large portion of the people at Wal-Mart want unions? There's always going to be a small group of people who believe that the minimum wage isn't enough for them. Perhaps they should take a look at the jobs they are doing and be happy for what they are getting paid for unskilled labor.

Rgardless, I don't think Wal-Mart pays minimum wage anyways.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Redstorm]
    #5865297 - 07/16/06 12:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You live with it or go find another job?

It's gonna be hard to find reliable stats of how many walmart workers want unions when walmart either fire them or close the store when the workers say they want unions.

Perhaps they should take a look at the jobs they are doing and be happy for what they are getting paid for unskilled labor.


Or maybe they should look at walmart profits and realise they played a massive part in earning that money and never saw dime one of it.

Incidentally going back to your idea that it can be all done through labor laws, what teeth do labor laws actually have? Do Walmart really give a shit if they get fined a few thousand dollars for breaking labor laws?

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Redstorm]
    #5865301 - 07/16/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You got stats showing that a large portion of the people at Wal-Mart want unions? There's always going to be a small group of people who believe that the minimum wage isn't enough for them. Perhaps they should take a look at the jobs they are doing and be happy for what they are getting paid for unskilled labor.

Rgardless, I don't think Wal-Mart pays minimum wage anyways.



In the case of the friend I mentioned, his problem wasn't wages. It was the way they totally fucked with his hours and made him work unpaid overtime. There's more than one way that an employer can fuck its employees.


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5865570 - 07/16/06 01:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Unions are the bastions of the mediocre.

Why work hard when the schmo next to you doesn't?
Why do your best and try to not make mistakes when your job is safe unless you piss on the shoes of your union rep?

Unions may have had their day, now they protect the pathetic.

As an example, crappy teachers.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5866057 - 07/16/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Obviously the labor laws and minimum wage arn't enough for the workers at walmart. Otherwise they wouldn't want unions.




Another unsubstantiated assertion. Please provide sources for this statement.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5866088 - 07/16/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Why not simply form a union and make sure you're paid a decent wage and provided decent working conditions? It's not like Walmart can't afford it. If they expect you to do the job they should expect to pay decent money.




Why take the additional risks that come with a union, and the possibillity that the company will not be able to succeed as another set of management has to be dealt with? $8 an hour is decent money for unskilled labor, a considerable amount more than the minimum requirement of the federal government.

Labor unions make sense when the trade is one that requires specific training and a more hazardous work environment, like working with steel or something, or in dealing with a structure like the federal government whose does not have to concern itself with being competitive. These are the jobs that are still unionized, and they make up less than 10% of the total jobs in the country.

Yet you don't see these groups lobbying the government to increase the set minimum wage, perhaps because these groups do not stand to benefit from that - only the workers themselves do. :shocked:

Why are they not lobbying for Mc Donald's to unionize its workers? Mc Donald's pays even less, and the typical worker at Mc Donald's is probably worse off, as far as providing for a family is concerned. Could it be that perhaps the unions that seek to change Wal*Mart are simply interested in the riches that they themselves will accumulate? Hhhm.... :lol:

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5866189 - 07/16/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
It's gonna be hard to find reliable stats of how many walmart workers want unions when walmart either fire them or close the store when the workers say they want unions.




Two stores in Canada have voted in a union. Wal*Mart closed one, due to the fact that negotiations could not be settled. Apparently the store was not that successful to start with. So much for the power of a union, eh? :rolleyes:

With the second one, from what I understand, the union was voted in automatically by labor law when a foolish manager interfered in the process of the store voting on the union (agansit policy). The associates later voted the union out. This is simply from recollection, so it might not be entirely accurate.

The atmosphere in Canada regarding unions is distinctly different; I believe that double the amount of jobs are unionized in Canada, with Canadian labor law more biased towards unions. Apparently the job market is weaker in Canada, as well. :shocked:

As far as firing associates who are pro-labor union, I sincerely doubt it, as such would be a violation of labor law, which is exactly the type of behavior that would make it easier for a labor union to work its way in (by court order)- which, as you have proclaimed, Wal*Mart doesn't want.

Quote:


Or maybe they should look at walmart profits and realise they played a massive part in earning that money and never saw dime one of it.




Or they should realize that they agreed to work in exchange for the payment offered. That's how it works, someone in an entry-level position isn't entitled the world simply because the company they work for is successful and makes profit. If they wish to obtain a bigger percentage of that profit, then perhaps they should play an increased role in the company.

Quote:


Incidentally going back to your idea that it can be all done through labor laws, what teeth do labor laws actually have? Do Walmart really give a shit if they get fined a few thousand dollars for breaking labor laws? 




Violation of labor law (threatening to close the store) was directly responsible for the court order that effectively certified a union in the Canadian store. Wal*Mart clearly is not interested in working with a union, and violating labor law makes it more likely that they will have to do so. It also creates undesireable publicity, which, in turn, makes it more likely that a union could get voted in elsewhere.

I've witnessed someone getting fired before for working off the clock and not taking breaks. We've recently completely restructured the hiring process in order to ensure that no discrimination occurs, and to document that we have not discriminated agansit anyone. Wal*Mart specifically takes steps so that bad situations do not arise that will give unions a foot in the door, and it is not surprising that, considering the sheer amount of stores and people involved, there have been situations in which someone fucks up (threatening to close a store if the union gets voted in, for example). People make mistakes, shit like that happens.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Silversoul]
    #5866295 - 07/16/06 05:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
In the case of the friend I mentioned, his problem wasn't wages.  It was the way they totally fucked with his hours and made him work unpaid overtime.  There's more than one way that an employer can fuck its employees.




First off, when someone is hired, they fill out a form that specifies the days and hours that they are able to work. If they decide to hire someone, they can't fuck with that scheduling, as far as putting them on for hours that they have specified they are not able to work. Within the time and days that they have specified they can work, they are, of course, free to schedule the person as they wish. If you specify open availability, then expect to have one's hours flexed around a bit. :shrug:

I also call bullshit on the unpaid overtime allegation. :lol: Those name badges are used to punch in and out from a time clock, and the personnel office has no capability of controlling what gets paid as overtime and what does not. Checks are cut from Bentonville, and if you are in the system for more than 40 hours in one week, then any time beyond that is paid as time and a half. Holiday pay is double, and there is an extra dollar an hour Sunday premium.

If he is alleging that he specifically worked more than 40 hours a week and the corporate office simply deleted hours, that's serious, and he could have easily verified the amount of time he worked and the amount of time he was paid for (surveillance recordings, I've got a hit and run charge for bumping into someone's car in the parking lot and taking off :lol:).

Its much more likely that he simply might have worked an extra half an hour or an hour over eight hours one day. That's not overtime if you kill the time later on in the week, it cannot be held agansit you if you only work your scheduled time each day, but doing so is a great way towards exceeding expectations, which means more money. :grin: Nothing wrong with being engaged. :wink:

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Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5866769 - 07/16/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You do know that Wal-Mart got sued not too long ago over exactly the kind of abuses my friend was talking about, right?


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Vvellum]
    #5866775 - 07/16/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
do you really think it is so unusual for people to work at dead-end jobs and to hate their jobs? sometimes people have to work crap jobs to make ends meet - it's quite common, actually.





I can't see myself working at a job that I "hated" for "years". Something is drastically wrong if that happens.


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5866783 - 07/16/06 06:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You live with it or go find another job?

Why not simply form a union and make sure you're paid a decent wage and provided decent working conditions? It's not like Walmart can't afford it. If they expect you to do the job they should expect to pay decent money.




If the majority of the people that work at Walmart want to fund a "company" (how I see "unions") and get better pay, they should just all unite their funds and open "UnionMart", prices could be a few thousand bucks for a gallon of milk and every UnionMart employee would drive a Bentley. Until that happens, they should just shut the fuck up and work.


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Silversoul]
    #5866887 - 07/16/06 07:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
You do know that Wal-Mart got sued not too long ago over exactly the kind of abuses my friend was talking about, right?




Wal*Mart gets sued all the time. :smirk:

As I said, unless the corporate office is deleting hours from the system or you are working off the clock (which will pretty much get you fired), then its impossible to not get compensated for working overtime.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #5867177 - 07/16/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Off the time work happens in union shops much more than in non union.

Non union shops tend to have more help around because the company can pay two people for the price of one union person..

I put in about three hours a week off the clock.  It keeps management off my back about excessive overtime and makes people think that Im getting more work done than I really am.  I do it mostly because I have to BUST ASS to get things finished on time.  Sometimes Id rather work slower and stay an hour of my own time than work like a mexican on meth.

I have NEVER been asked to work off the clock by anyone, ever. 

Quote:


Unions are the bastions of the mediocre.

Why work hard when the schmo next to you doesn't?
Why do your best and try to not make mistakes when your job is safe unless you piss on the shoes of your union rep?

Unions may have had their day, now they protect the pathetic.

As an example, crappy teachers.




Ahmen :thumbup:  This is only half true..  It ONLY holds true if management allows this sort of thing to happen.  While people are protected by seniority theirs lots that a company can do to fuck with that person if they dont like the way they perform..

Mostly its those who are old and have put in 20 or more years who get the benefit of being lazy and not having to do much..  I feel that they deserve it because in order to get to that place they did have to put up with all the company bull shit for two decades and at some point they were probably varry good workers..  Anyone who is new or has less than 15 years though or is under 50 has still got to earn that right to be a union protected slackey.

This is a BIG problem we face in the meat business.  Many of the butchers are pushing 60 and cant do shit.  We all know that for 30 or more years they were kings of the trade but now us younger guys have to pick up their slack.  My boss retired not long ago after 50 years in the business and 37 years in my company.  While he didnt do much work every day, nobody ever once thought of him as a pathetic schmo.


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5867285 - 07/16/06 08:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The only thing that is really guaranteed is that the union will benefit regardless. Lots and lots of money.




...yes, funding for the union to perform as needed.

Quote:


Talk to the suppliers about that one :lol:




What is so funny about sweatshops? So, even if a retail giant chooses to purchase from sweatshops, then the retail giant has no responsibility in that situation? the fault lies entirely on the owners of the sweatshop? Give me a break - if the owners did not have an incentive from the retail giant, they would not operate as they do.

Quote:

Exactly, a union will serve as a detriment for the company to take care of itself, because there will be an organization instilled that is not the company, influencing and obstructing the decisions it makes.




You seem to be missing the point of a union and I dont think you have much experience in the matter, quite frankly. A union does not usurp a companies responsibilities, it makes sure that a company adheres to the employees needs as well as labor laws (we all know government is not going to help out much). The argument you present is not unlike saying the Department of Children and Family Services prevents parents from properly taking care of their children.

Quote:

It takes, what, 30% of the employees of a particular establishment to vote in a union? A store can't squash the formation of a union - attempting to do automatically results in the formation of a union, as it is a violation of labor laws. The company can only prevent circumstances that would bring the possibillity of a formation of a union - it obviously does so, or we would have stores forming unions, eh?




the reason why unions are rare in retail is because such jobs are usually of a high turn-over rate. Individuals only work at these jobs for a much shorter time then they would, say, work on an assembly line or work as an electrician. Make sense now?

Quote:

There certainly is not any clear advantage to a union.




Are better wages, safer conditions, better benefits not clear advantages? You've obviously only been in the workforce for a short while, no?

Quote:

It depends on what exactly the sole individual is voicing, for one thing. If the voice clearly demonstrates that there is an issue that needs to be resolved, and that issue is reflective of reality, then it will be. Secondly, more than one individual can work together to address concerns. It happens, I've witnessed it happen, and it has worked. Wal*Mart clearly is not stupid, and is not going to allow circumstances that could result in a union to ferment, as it has its interests as a company - a union will obstruct their ability to perform. Thus, the associates are given avenues through which to address concerns.




...and all of these "recourses" are all predicated on the approval of Walmart superiors. What if there is something employees need that the brass of Walmart refuse to provide?

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5867891 - 07/16/06 11:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

just wondering if you watched the film on Walmart that I posted the torrent for. what are your thoughts?

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: xDuckYouSuckerx]
    #5868065 - 07/17/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If the majority of the people that work at Walmart want to fund a "company" (how I see "unions")

You don't understand what a union is or does. A union represents it's members to improve working conditions and pay. It's not a retail outlet.

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5868068 - 07/17/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Wal*Mart gets sued all the time.

So much for labor laws. This is why unions are needed.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Alex213]
    #5868613 - 07/17/06 08:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Just because Wal-Mart is sued doesn't mean that the suits brought are actually won by the plaintiff. Losing in a legal battle means you've done something wrong, not merely being sued.

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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Redstorm]
    #5868768 - 07/17/06 10:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If memory serves correct, Wal-Mart lost the particular lawsuit I was referring to. In any case, Alex does make a legitimate point: A union can be much more reliable in enforcing labor laws than simply trying to go through the court system every time.


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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Silversoul]
    #5868837 - 07/17/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

BTW, you might want to read this before calling bullshit on my friend's claims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wal-Mart_and_Labor_Laws

Quote:

It is alleged that Wal-Mart's salaried managers have pressured hourly employees to work "off-the-clock" in order to avoid overtime pay.

As of the time of submission of Wal-Mart's 10-Q Report for the quarterly period ended October 31, 2005, the company faced "numerous cases containing class-action allegations in which the plaintiffs have brought claims under the Fair Labor Standards Act (“FLSA”), corresponding state statutes, or other laws. The plaintiffs in these lawsuits are current and former hourly Associates who allege, among other things, that the Company forced them to work “off the clock,” or failed to provide work breaks, or otherwise claim they were not paid for work performed."

Wal-Mart's 10-Q further details that "Class certification has yet to be addressed in a majority of the cases. Class certification has been denied or overturned in cases pending in Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Indiana, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Nevada, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Texas, West Virginia, and Wisconsin. Some or all of the requested classes have been certified in cases pending in California, Colorado, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Missouri, New Mexico, Oregon, and Washington. Conditional certifications for notice purposes under the FLSA have been allowed in cases in Georgia, Michigan, and Texas."

In 2000, Wal-Mart paid $50 million to settle a class-action suit that asserted that 69,000 current and former Wal-Mart employees in Colorado had worked off-the-clock. These employees, as well as several former managers, have testified that Wal-Mart had an unofficial policy requiring off-the-clock work, to keep the cost of payroll down.

Class-action suits were filed in 1995 on behalf of full-time Wal-Mart pharmacists whose base salaries and working hours were reduced as sales declined, resulting in the pharmacists being treated like hourly employees. Initial judgments ruled in favor of the plaintiffs, but an appeal by Wal-Mart resulted in the cases being remanded to a lower court in February 2005 due to insufficient evidence that Wal-Mart committed the offense often enough that the salaries were equivalent to hourly wages.




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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: Target threatens to leave if wage rule OK'd [Re: Redstorm]
    #5869084 - 07/17/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
Just because Wal-Mart is sued doesn't mean that the suits brought are actually won by the plaintiff. Losing in a legal battle means you've done something wrong, not merely being sued.




Yeah but lets get real. The number of employees of Walmart who have the time and money to take a multi-billion dollar corporation to court is going to be pretty small. The number who can beat the best lawyers money can buy is going to be even smaller. And even if they do win the punishment of a few thousand dollars in fines won't mean jackshit to Walmart.


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