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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Do you think there should be a minimum wage?
#7403643 - 09/13/07 02:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Where I'm from most people make more than the minimum wage even in jobs such as mcdonalds since there is a shortage of people. It seems almost communist that no matter what the job a person should get a minimum amount of money per hour.
Do you think market forces and availability of workers should drive the minimum wage or do you think the government should and why?
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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I'm a bit torn on this issue. If pushed, I think I support minimum wage, but it should be tied to the GDP (or a similar metric) rather than some magical number that congress dishes out before an election to try and bribe voters. I understand the argument for market forces and availability of workers driving wages, but I don't see this as a free market; people (in general) have to work to live. Because of this, without protection, an employer can set an arbitrary low wage knowing that his employees really have no choice in the matter... they either take what is offered or they starve.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
#7404020 - 09/13/07 08:10 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Precisely... Most employers might pay more than the minimum wage, but that wage would likely be lower if the minimum wage was not where it was.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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DieCommie


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Not in the current economic climate, no I dont think we need one. But it doesnt really matter, as there are lots of corporations that are hiring at above minimum wage. Anybody (here in phoenix) can go get a job with no skill at $10 at least, so if the min. wage is $5 or $7 doesnt make a difference.
I can understand why it started though... In a climate where there are more workers then jobs, and where there is only one factory per town to work in
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: DieCommie]
#7404128 - 09/13/07 08:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah but in such a climate wouldnt a lot of people move to areas where workers were in demand more?
It might actually cut down on unemployment because wages would not be held artificially high were there are too few jobs or too many people or just plain depressed areas.
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afoaf
CEO DBK?



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mobility isn't free and if you're already hurting it's not always easy to move to the next town where you can get work.
that being said, I think the minimum wage laws are no more than politicians pandering to a public unable to grasp simple economic principles.
DEY TOOK URRR JEBS
-------------------- All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.
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wilshire
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absolutely not.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7405164 - 09/13/07 05:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> absolutely not.
Please elaborate. I'm on the fence, so to speak, on this issue and would love to hear opposing arguments. One bit that I left out of my original post is that I do not support both minimum wage and unions, and in my mind, unions (employee blackmail) are the more harmful of the two.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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d33p
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
#7405222 - 09/13/07 05:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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No, their only purpose is political since many unions have wages tied to the minimum wage. Anyway, the idea itself is stupid; if someone wants to work for a certain wage why should the government prevent them.
-------------------- I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends. bang bang
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allreadyused
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: d33p]
#7405730 - 09/13/07 06:59 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I live in PA and the minimum wage here just got bumped up to $7.15/hr. As for DieCommie who said in Pheonix anybody can get a $10/hr job. Where I live your lucky if you can find that. The majority of the jobs are between the new state minimum wage $7.15 and $8.50/hr and no benefits. My Idea for the minimum wage is it should be adjusted every year to go along with inflation.
-------------------- Everything I say is for entertainment. Fuck the ASPCA
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: allreadyused]
#7405848 - 09/13/07 07:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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The majority of the jobs are between the new state minimum wage $7.15 and $8.50/hr and no benefits.
do you mean the majority of jobs that require no specialized skills, training, knowledge, or education?
most of the people i know that work in skilled trades, and i'm talking blue collar here - no college, just working hard and paying attention - make at least $20 an hour.
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wilshire
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
#7405864 - 09/13/07 07:29 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Please elaborate.
there's no reason for the government to get involved in the price of labor. why should there be a minimum wage?
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool



Registered: 11/17/02
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a minimum wage protects the worker form being taken advantage of. see a coporation is looking to pay the people at the bottom as little as they can while pocketing as much money for the people at the to.
corporate execs pay themselves insane salaries and bonuses while paying the people who make them rich disgustingly low wages. they pay people who work full-time barely enough to even live and don't even provide medical coverage.
look to the shitty conditions of the early 1900s and see how corporations treated people.
look at the shit happening in 3rd world countries where american corporations actually get in with corrupt governments so they can be assured no minimum wage will ever happen. you should have read this book i checked out on the subject. its fucking disgusting what our multi-nationals do to people.
see these horrible, oppressive dictatorships make brochures to lure corps to build factories inside their countries (funny how bush said we had to topple saddam because he was a horrible dictator when we LOVe to deal with guys 10x worse than Hussein just because they're friendly).anyway these brochures contain pictures of a country's people, articles extolling the hard working nature, and assurance that labor unions are strictly forbidden.
so the corporations bring in their factories. the governments are so corrupt they ensure the wealth is only in the hands of a very few , mostly government officials. so the people become soooo fucking poor the only choice they have to to go into these factories. they are forced to work insanely long days, of course this isnt restrictions so its 14-18 hours. the are paid 10cents a day, maybe less, so they cant afford any housing. they are only able to afford housing provided provided by the corporations. this housing is usually giant disgusting, rat infested, leaky, smelly, cramped corporate dormitories. usually no running water, no sewers and no electricity. which of course the company charges these workers to live in. the only food they can afford is served by the company and is about as quality as prison gruel.
the workers are in such horrible, unsafe conditions, injury and death is common. the corporations dont give a fuck, much like they didnt give a fuck in the USA, early in the 20th century. even the workers who arent directly injured or maimed are usless by the age of 30. they have been working since childhood and have horrible joint problems, arthritis and breathing conditions. working conditions are absolutely fucking atrocious.
the worst part is the murder. there have been SOOOOOOOOOOO many documented cases of corporate and government homicide. people who talk of labor unions or are heard talking bad about the company often disapear and never heard from again. in one case i read a man who was working on a union was chopped up and thrown by a door so people saw him as they came to work.
its really insane what corporations will do if they arent kept in line. they dont care about anything, only the bottom line and the wealth of very few. whats funny is this isnt about just being well off, its about making few people obscenely wealthy...people collecting salaries of 25 million per year and up...being supported by 100s of 3rd world workers whose combined salaries for the year are less than the CEO makes in a weeks.
we are so lucky our government protects us from out corporations.
(its scary to think of mainstream USA companies actually being responsible for murder overseas. dont be fooled though, it happens, constantly. its such a wonder so many people dont like the USA... )
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nakors_junk_bag
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#7406097 - 09/13/07 08:17 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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to noone in particular, with the advent of undocumented workers(aliens) and their exponentiaitng abundance, don't you think it ai a good thing for documented workers to be able to counbt on atleast a certain amount of money eveery hour?
-------------------- Asshole
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#7406161 - 09/13/07 08:28 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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a minimum wage protects the worker form being taken advantage of. see a coporation is looking to pay the people at the bottom as little as they can while pocketing as much money for the people at the to.
they are looking to get labor at its market value. asking them to pay any more than what labor is worth on the market is asking charity of them - a handout. if some people do need, and are justified in receiving, a handout, why not cut the minimum wage bullshit and give them their subsidy directly?
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7406196 - 09/13/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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who sets the market value?
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wilshire
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7406245 - 09/13/07 08:39 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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don't you think it ai a good thing for documented workers to be able to counbt on atleast a certain amount of money eveery hour?
i think it would be good if i made $100 an hour. i think it would be good if we were all completely free from material want. what's your point? of course it would be good. can the government gaurantee that? no, it can't.
you can't solve poverty by just telling employers to pay poor people more money. that is the most moronic and simplistic fix i can think of. if it worked, you could just mandate $100 an hour as the national minimum wage and everyone would be rich. it doesn't work that way, because what you get is unemployment.
the cost of increasing the minimum wage is unemployment. unemployment among the lowest earners. then those people go on welfare anyway.
i think, and even socialists must agree, that it's better for individuals, in terms of their mental health and self-esteem, to hold a job, even a very low paying one, and recieve a government income subsidy, than to be unemployed and totally reliant on government checks. it's better for society too, because there is less crime committed by idle unemployed people and less of a permanently welfare dependent subculture. it has its drawbacks too, but it's better than a minimum wage.
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wilshire
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#7406250 - 09/13/07 08:40 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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who sets the market value?
supply and demand.
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nakors_junk_bag
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7406365 - 09/13/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Actually the government does guarantee that you make a certain amount an hour, its called the minimum wage. It is also good in providing a standard for the entry level worker to expect and make. Form there the market value of labor can only get higher. tell me what is wrong with that?
no one said set it at an unreasonable 100 dollars an hour. It seems your answer was more emotional than thought out.
-------------------- Asshole
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KingOftheThing
the cool fool



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7406923 - 09/13/07 10:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: who sets the market value?
supply and demand.
people dont have the option to not work so if corporations were to agree amongst themselves to pay like shit people couldnt just not work to force wages higher
free market was in effect in the early 20th century. it didnt work for 98% of americans. sure 2% got filthy fucking rich, but everyone else got fucked. before the government stepped in to help workers, and before labor unions. the corporations abused the free market. they had unfair wages, insanely long hours, unsafe working conditions, child labor, no health care...some workers were only paid in fake money that could only be spent at the general store inside their factory. the stores would sell household items and food...clothes, shoes, the workers just put their fake bucks back into the corporation.
corporations are for some reason evil fucks by nature. they wouldnt do anything for their workers unless forced. govt workplace restrictions have been responsible for 8hr day, overtime, vacation time, healthcare, lunch breaks, etc... thank government regulation for everything from safer machines in factories to ergonomic chairs and keyboards.
see your whole free market, supply and demand thing is ridiculous. if there were no restrictions, its been proven coporations will even knowingly produce unsafe shit for the public. the market place deciding is really dumb. so lets say some corp builds cribs that cut babies heads off. ok it would hit the news and people wouldnt buy from them...however why should babies have to die?? woudlnt it be smarter to have some government oversight and safety standards the corps are forced to conform to?? yes it would...
what about unsafe work enviroments?? should a bunch of guys have to get their arms ripped off before everyone in the marketplace decides its not the best place to work?? or isnt it smarter for the govt to have oversight of workplace safety?? yes it is.
lastly for the market place to decide in regards to not buying from companies who produce unsafe products or provide poor working conditions, word would have to get out. how would word get out?? the media?? the media is owned by fucking corporations!!! not just media corporations either! media outlets are being sucked up by giant multinationals who make all kinds of shit.
if GE made some lightbulbs that were blowing people up, do you think ud hear about it on NBC news?? you couldnt even count on other outlets reporting it, shit GE has mad advertising dollars. new outlets already ignore some stories that would hurt advertisers.
so whats the answer?? a free market and govt controlled news?? i think not
the corporate world are no different than organized crime. they will do anything to make a buck. they dont give a fuck about you or your family. im glad the government at least has some control over these corps. there are a few ground rules.
shit and what about the happiness of a person and the human spirit?? conservatives are always babbling about work..it seems they think you should be working 24/7 at some meaningless dogshit job. its why conservatives are such grumpy, funless people.
look at us compared to france..they have a better minimum wage, better benefits and get a mandatory 3 months vacation a year. they also have less depression, less suicide and a generally happier population. america is one of the most overworked countries in the world. its only getting worse too, stores are opening longer hours and more days. they are expecting more work from people for less pay. its fucked up that corporate level salaries are skyrocketing while employee pay is falling or staying level. ive began to ramble...the bottom line is, the corporate world / corporate culture in this country is just disgustingly fucked up. i hate having to toil in a corporate enviroment to make a living...no choice though
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#7407403 - 09/14/07 01:48 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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You sell high interest loans to people with bad credit. I don't know if you still do that or not but that's fucking evil.
I think what corporations such as wal mart are doing in other countries is improving the lives of others. They create jobs where there were none before and people take those jobs because they actually improve their lives.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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> there's no reason for the government to get involved in the price of labor. why should there be a minimum wage?
When somebody has no job and has a family to feed, they can find themselves in a situation where they have to take what is offered, or starve, because there is no other choice. I don't know how to articulate this, so I will give an example... from the prospective employer to the applicant: "I see you really need a job. Normally we would pay $10 an hour, but since you are desperate and hungry, the job is yours for $4 an hour. Take it or leave it."
Donno... the more I try to argue this, the more difficult time I have with it. Every bit of me that doesn't like government getting involved in peoples lives is telling me that the government should keep it's hands off of this and let employers decide how much they are willing to pay somebody to work for them. At the same time, I don't see any harm, and I do see a lot of good, coming from a reasonable minimum wage that is tied to the health of the economy somehow.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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gluke bastid
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7409360 - 09/14/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: who sets the market value?
supply and demand.
Of Labor? I don't see it that way. There is and always will be more of a supply of labor than there is a demand for it. Just because there would be an adequate supply of labor if everyone worked at .25 cents an hour doesn't mean that it should be allowed.
The federal minimum wage is, what, $5.15? I don't know anyone who works for that little. So what is the point of minimum wage? It is a check. It is protection so that the truly powerful corporations don't backslide to the "baron" era in which there were no minimum wage laws, no child labor laws, no unions, no insurance, no worker compensation... no protection for the worker at all. The reason that the labor movement occurred is because working conditions got so bad that things had to be changed.
I'm not a communist but if you don't believe that company owners will exploit their workers for profit if given the chance than you don't understand that things used to be much worse than they are now.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
#7409401 - 09/14/07 02:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> The federal minimum wage is, what, $5.15?
Hardly, just got raised to $7.25/hr over the next three years:
$5.85 - Summer of 2007 $6.55 - Summer of 2008 $7.25 - Summer of 2009
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
#7409432 - 09/14/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Interesting. that seems a little high
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: KingOftheThing]
#7409710 - 09/14/07 03:16 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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so if corporations were to agree amongst themselves to pay like shit
that doesn't work in real life. 99.9% of goods and services have no price floor, yet the sort of thing you're talking about does not happen.
most of your post is an off topic rant about how evil employers are.
the market price of unskilled labor, like anything else, is set by supply and demand. if the government establishes a legal price floor at or below the market value, there is no effect. if it sets a price floor above the market value, it will result in a surplus (unemployment). economics 101 here.
this is why you cannot go on increasing the legal price floor on labor as much as you want. people get fired - poorest first.
yes, there is a fairly low, by our standards, price set on unskilled labor in this country, because there is a lot of unskilled labor on the market. subsidizing it and artificially increasing its price is not the answer, and only makes the problem worse.
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
#7409734 - 09/14/07 03:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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There is and always will be more of a supply of labor than there is a demand for it.
fsupply and demand are not fixed amounts. they are each represented by a curve - quantity as a function of price. at the market price of a good, supply equals demand. there is a surplus of unskilled labor because there is a price floor on it.
Just because there would be an adequate supply of labor if everyone worked at .25 cents an hour doesn't mean that it should be allowed.
you mean adequate demand?
Edited by wilshire (09/14/07 04:13 PM)
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wilshire
free radical


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You sell high interest loans to people with bad credit. I don't know if you still do that or not but that's fucking evil.
i know this is off topic, but how could that possibly be evil?
the greater the risk, the greater the potential reward. you put your money in the bank and you're gonna get a crappy interest rate, but you're pretty much guaranteed to get it. you invest in some IPO and maybe your stock tanks or maybe it doubles in a year.
it's the same exact thing when banks offer loans to individuals. they're more willing to take a lower interest rate on a sure bet.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
#7409896 - 09/14/07 03:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> Interesting. that seems a little high
The Democrat's couldn't keep their promise to get the troops home from Iraq, but they quickly raised the minimum wage to help remove some of the sting in the eyes of those that are likely Democrat voters/supporters.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7412072 - 09/15/07 05:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: You sell high interest loans to people with bad credit. I don't know if you still do that or not but that's fucking evil.
i know this is off topic, but how could that possibly be evil?
the greater the risk, the greater the potential reward. you put your money in the bank and you're gonna get a crappy interest rate, but you're pretty much guaranteed to get it. you invest in some IPO and maybe your stock tanks or maybe it doubles in a year.
it's the same exact thing when banks offer loans to individuals. they're more willing to take a lower interest rate on a sure bet.
Because he knows these people are getting fucked and they aren't buying assets they're buying used cars. They have terrible credit so they get sent to him for special finance, which is finance at unbelievably high interest rates. Hes a used car salesman basically.
Edit: Its not evil, its slimy, evil is an exaggeration
Edited by lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl (09/15/07 05:37 AM)
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nakors_junk_bag
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This is fucking ridiculous, if people dint wanna pay high interest rates they should go without the car for a little while and save that money, then buy it out right. Quit calling him evil, evil is when people don't get to make their own decisions and are forced into things they dint decide to do.
I a motherfucker is stoopid enough to contractually obligate himself to super high interest rates then fuck him.
I am 26, have owned four cars, three were very nice, never once have I ever paid interest on a car. Save your money and buy the shit. Don't borrow money and then bitch about the interest rates.
-------------------- Asshole
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7413012 - 09/15/07 12:21 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> evil is when people don't get to make their own decisions and are forced into things they dint decide to do.
I agree with you on this much, at least...
With respect to high interest loans, as long as the terms of the loan are very clear and the lender is being up front and honest, then I see no problem. However, a lot of people are claiming that they didn't understand the fine print, or that they were mislead or lied to regarding the terms of the loan... I suspect some of these people are telling the truth and others are looking for an excuse.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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Smackshadow
It's Time for Wild Speculation


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
#7413174 - 09/15/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I support a minimum wage. I believe that exploitation hurts our economy, our labor supply, and our nation. If you work 40 hours a week you should be able to pay for the food on your table and a roof over your head. Other wise you are simply working yourselves into the poor house, and thats wrong.
As far as creating a price floor effect in labor I just haven't seen it. I haven't heard of any business firing people off because the minimum wage went up. I haven't seen them refuse to fill jobs because of it either.
I too agree with you that Quote:
> evil is when people don't get to make their own decisions and are forced into things they dint decide to do.
I say it is just as evil to dupe people into a financlaly desasterous loan because you think it will help line your own pockets. imo
-------------------- The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all. ~H. L. Mencken~
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wilshire
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They have terrible credit so they get sent to him for special finance, which is finance at unbelievably high interest rates.
if i have a known history of not returning things i rent, and i ask to rent something from you, promising that i've changed, would it be evil for you to charge me a higher rental fee than someone who always returns things on time and in good condition to make it worth your risk?
how is that evil?
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Smackshadow]
#7417226 - 09/16/07 05:05 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you work 40 hours a week you should be able to pay for the food on your table and a roof over your head.
and this is why there should be a minimum wage? because you think that?
I haven't heard of any business firing people off because the minimum wage went up. I haven't seen them refuse to fill jobs because of it either.
this means it isn't happening? it is. basic, basic economics, supported by real world statistics.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7418873 - 09/17/07 05:36 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
nakors_junk_bag said: This is fucking ridiculous, if people dint wanna pay high interest rates they should go without the car for a little while and save that money, then buy it out right.
Some people are in situations in which they actually need a vehicle to be able to commute to and from their job, which they need to do in order to generate money for themselves. Clearly, it is then to be accepted that one has to pay more interest if one doesn't have the financial background to be able to qualify for lower interest rates (in which case, they would be more capable of purchasing a vehicle for themselves without a loan), yet for you to say "just don't have a car and save your money" doesn't have much basis in reality.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger



Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: fireworks_god]
#7418881 - 09/17/07 05:43 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Minimum wages don't solve the problem, because corporations take the difference in expenses from the cost of their operations, instead of their bottom line, which is probably why wilshire would state that raising minimum wage results in unemployment.
The approach would be to regulate corporations, by changing the definition of what a corporation is, which is, of course, within the realm of government. Government sets the framework within which corporations operate. I could not speculate as to the specific change to make, yet this is how it would need to be done.
On an unrelated note, let's end multinational corporations, as they are a violation of the people's sovereignity.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: fireworks_god]
#7418888 - 09/17/07 05:56 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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you can buy a car that will go for years fro 500 dollars and up. I you need to get a job, move closer.
Also I see your point, some people need to borrow money at super high rates, they should do so knowing their plight and make an informed decision.
I was merely stating it was ridiculous in my mind to call someone evil cause they broker high interest loans. It is fully the person purchasing the loan who is responsible for situation, whether it be necessity or ignorance.
-------------------- Asshole
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7418893 - 09/17/07 06:07 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> you can buy a car that will go for years fro 500 dollars and up.
Yes, you can... but as anybody that has done so knows, you end up putting three to four times as much money into upkeep than you did to purchase the thing. Cheap cars are cheap for a reason. Sometimes you get lucky and get "the widows" car, but usually it is cheap 'cause it is a piece of junk. You also have additional costs beyond the fixed price of the car; fuel, insurance, taxes, etc.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
#7419056 - 09/17/07 08:35 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I like the idea of minimum wage, but employers will just find some way around it. If companies have to raise from 7 to 8 dollars an hour then they're just goin to cut people's hours to even it out which doesn't really do much.
A few years ago in California, there was a referendum to force employers of a certain size to offer health insurance to any employees with 36 hours/week or more. It sounded great... but... that just meant that if it passed.. employers would cut hours so they wouldn't have to pay.. effectively screwing those meant to be protected.
Kinda shitty eh? No matter what you do to try to help those making less, there's always going to be a loophole which causes the effort to fuck over those people.
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Seuss
Error: divide byzero



Registered: 04/27/01
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: BrAiN]
#7419078 - 09/17/07 08:42 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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> then they're just goin to cut people's hours to even it out which doesn't really do much.
Actually, it does... many companies do not have to provide benefits, vacations, or sick leave for non-full time employees, at least where I live.
> Kinda shitty eh?
Yep... greed begets greed.
-------------------- Just another spore in the wind.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Seuss]
#7419396 - 09/17/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Seuss said: > you can buy a car that will go for years fro 500 dollars and up.
Yes, you can... but as anybody that has done so knows, you end up putting three to four times as much money into upkeep than you did to purchase the thing. Cheap cars are cheap for a reason. Sometimes you get lucky and get "the widows" car, but usually it is cheap 'cause it is a piece of junk. You also have additional costs beyond the fixed price of the car; fuel, insurance, taxes, etc.
This is simply not true in most cases. As long as you have the car inspected for any faults before you buy it, many cars (particularly older oldsmobiles and hondas) will run until there is nothing left of them, and get better gas mileage than most new cars. You can buy a car for 1-3000 dollars and get all of the miles that you would get out of a 40 thousand dollar cadilac
Edited by xFrockx (09/17/07 11:22 AM)
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DieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: xFrockx]
#7421144 - 09/17/07 07:55 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
You can buy a car for 1-3000 dollars and get all of the miles that you would get out of a 40 thousand dollar cadilac
I agree 100%. I delivered pizza for years off of a $2500 dollar car. I spent less than $500 a year average on maintenance.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs




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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: DieCommie]
#7422444 - 09/18/07 04:49 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
let's end multinational corporations, as they are a violation of the people's sovereignity.
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7422868 - 09/18/07 09:39 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: There is and always will be more of a supply of labor than there is a demand for it.
fsupply and demand are not fixed amounts. they are each represented by a curve - quantity as a function of price. at the market price of a good, supply equals demand. there is a surplus of unskilled labor because there is a price floor on it.
It sounds to me like you are using fancy words to agree with me. "There is a surplus of unskilled labor" is basically what I was saying.
Quote:
Just because there would be an adequate supply of labor if everyone worked at .25 cents an hour doesn't mean that it should be allowed.
you mean adequate demand?
I will make my statement as clear as possible. Then you can argue with the content as oppossed to trying to school me in the linguistics of economics 101:
Let's say that every employer pays 25 cents an hour and somehow is able to have all of the employees needed to run whatever business/organization they own. All of the needs for labor are met. My point was that in this hypothetical situation the fact that all of the needs for labor are met is not a sufficient end. This situation should not be allowed, and if that means that the government needs to create a minimum wage, so be it. If it means that the workers need to go on strike and organize a union, so be it. If it means that there needs to be a communist revolution, so be it. Because history has shown that when employers are allowed to exploit their workers to the point where everyone is getting paid but no one is getting by, the workers will take it into their own hands. I'm not condoning it on philosophical grounds, just pointing out to you that it happens. Minimum wage can function as a protection against such extremes.
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Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
#7422976 - 09/18/07 10:21 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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If you aren't skilled enough to earn more than $0.25/hour you shouldn't be paid more than that.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 2,415
Loc: ethereality
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: badchad]
#7422981 - 09/18/07 10:22 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Skill deosn't set the market price for labor, supply does. Why does it have to be explained so many times?!?!?!
if there is an abundance of a certain skill set then the value of that skill diminshes. If fifty thousand people studied brick making, a skill, but the demand for bricks only supported twenty thousand brick makers, then the the price of theri knowledge isn't as valuable. They should learn another trade, while studying another trade they will probably need certain things for survival. Do I need to spell those things out? It wouldn't do for 60 percent of the population to starve to deth cause the demands for brick diminshed. When next year the supply may very well not meet the demand.
Edited by nakors_junk_bag (09/18/07 10:29 AM)
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7423027 - 09/18/07 10:34 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
nakors_junk_bag said: Skill deosn't set the market price for labor, supply does. Why does it have to be explained so many times?!?!?!
There is usually a large supply of unskilled labor though, by definition.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 2,415
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: badchad]
#7423046 - 09/18/07 10:38 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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yes there is, and unskilled laborers need to eat tot. There is also usually a large supply ofunskilled work to be done. Like cleaning up construction sites, hauling brick and mud. Lawn care, flipping burgers at mcd's, if people couldn't count on at least enough money to maintain homeostasis, they probably wouldn't even bother going to work, thus a billion fat greedy middle level managers would starve to death on their lunch breaks. Now, if the demand for labor is met, then surely not everyone is going to get work, right? So, it seems to me that enusring food money to those that do get work, is better than letting the market decide and the unworking and the working alike are hungry, or homeless, or both. So a reasonable minimum wage is conducive to a healthy society. lest the people starve and as someone said REVOLT.
IMHO
-------------------- Asshole
Edited by nakors_junk_bag (09/18/07 10:47 AM)
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gluke bastid
Stinky Bum



Registered: 12/20/00
Posts: 3,322
Loc: Charm City
Last seen: 5 years, 3 months
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: badchad]
#7423093 - 09/18/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: If you aren't skilled enough to earn more than $0.25/hour you shouldn't be paid more than that.
Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to $.25 an hour? Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to billions of dollars a year?
I don't mean to be a dick, but your point is entirely meaningless.
--------------------
Society in every form is a blessing, but government at its best is but a necessary evil - Thomas Paine
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badchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,372
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
#7423205 - 09/18/07 11:15 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I didn't necessarily mean to use literal values, rather I was illustrating a point. I believe wages should follow supply and demand. In general, the training and aquisition of skills requires effort and time, which limits demand. Thus, the two are linked.
Quote:
gluke bastid said: Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to $.25 an hour?
A greeter at Wal-Mart who serves little to no purpose and requires no training.
Quote:
gluke bastid said: Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to billions of dollars a year?
An emergency room physician. How much is your life worth?
Quote:
gluke bastid said:I don't mean to be a dick, but your point is entirely meaningless.
meaningless? What do you think wages should be based on? or do you think we should all receive a flat rate regardless of what job we do?
So
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: badchad]
#7423381 - 09/18/07 11:54 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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I think the solution to this problem is.. take the chicks that are 22 years old and have 20 kids... and slap a chastity belt on them. Then minimum wage WILL be enough to pay for everyone's expenses.
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BrAiN
Art Fag

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 6,875
Loc: Chocolate City
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: badchad]
#7423408 - 09/18/07 11:59 AM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said:
Quote:
gluke bastid said: Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to $.25 an hour?
A greeter at Wal-Mart who serves little to no purpose and requires no training.
Oh snap.
Yea that's another thing that pisses me off about Walmart.
They cut the hours of the ppl working the registers to save money, screwing the customers so they have to wait in line for 2 hours....
Yet they have the most useless people on staff like greeters. I think walmart just scouts for the omst retarded person in the cities they infect.. and give them greeter jobs for the sole purpose of being able to say "See? You can't be mad at us! We just gave your village idiot a job. Accept us! LOVE US! ASSIMILATE OR DIEEEE MUTHAFUCKAAZ"
BTW... If you guys get a chance.. check out the documentary "Walmart: The high cost of low prices".. even if you think anti walmart ppl are idiots. It does start off with the usual tear jerking "I Lost my job cuz of walmart" crap, but then it gets really interesting when they start interviewing former managers, union busters, executives that defected. A former exec admits Walmart has a policy that if anyone in the store mentions the word UNION, they're supposed to call this hotline... and then within 24 HOURS walmart sends a union buster via PRIVATE PLANE to relieve that store's manager of duty... also shows how whenever there is a store vote to unionize, Walmart will DILLUTE the vote by hiring 50 dummy employees just for a day and then fire them.
I'm not a big fan of unions, but that's pretty fucked up. How can you possibly get any more anti-democracy.
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: gluke bastid]
#7424085 - 09/18/07 02:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Can you give an example of a job in which someone's skill is equivalent to $.25 an hour?
i don't think anyone would be getting paid 25 cents an hour absent a minimum wage. that's partially my point.
i think it's counterproductive to create a minimum wage for 2 reasons.
the first is that it directly creates unemployment by setting an artificial price floor above the market clearing price - at this price there are more willing sellers than willing buyers. the unemployed do not contribute to society, are a drag on social services, are more likely to commit crimes, and are not acquiring work experience that could make them more valuable. a low paying job is better than low paying government checks.
the second is that as it reduces the available jobs for unskilled workers, it also increases the number of unskilled workers trying to get these jobs, because it reduces the incentive to acquire job skills to move to higher paying positions. this clearly exacerbates the problem. so the minimum wage, in several different ways, increases the problem it's intended to address.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



Registered: 11/23/04
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7424139 - 09/18/07 02:58 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: he second is that as it reduces the available jobs for unskilled workers, it also increases the number of unskilled workers trying to get these jobs, because it reduces the incentive to acquire job skills to move to higher paying positions. this clearly exacerbates the problem. so the minimum wage, in several different ways, increases the problem it's intended to address.
explain to me how minimum wage impacts the demand for workers, or as you stated it, reduces the available jobs for unskilled workers
Amount of work to be done is based largely on the need, growth of a particular area, not price of labor except in the most round about of ways.
-------------------- Asshole
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7424310 - 09/18/07 03:38 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amount of work to be done is based largely on the need, growth of a particular area, not price of labor except in the most round about of ways.
The amount of work to BE done may be based on need and growth, etc., but that work won't GET done if the business can't afford to hire someone to do it.
Business owners aren't idiots, generally. They usually know how much money they have available. If the minimum wage is $280 (plus benefits, don't forget) per week for a fulltime employee, and the amount on hand is just $195 a week, then that business won't (can't, actually) hire a fulltime worker, no matter how much work there is to be done.
Phred
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



Registered: 11/23/04
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Phred]
#7424344 - 09/18/07 03:45 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
Quote:
Amount of work to be done is based largely on the need, growth of a particular area, not price of labor except in the most round about of ways.
The amount of work to BE done may be based on need and growth, etc., but that work won't GET done if the business can't afford to hire someone to do it.
Business owners aren't idiots, generally. They usually know how much money they have available. If the minimum wage is $280 (plus benefits, don't forget) per week for a fulltime employee, and the amount on hand is just $195 a week, then that business won't (can't, actually) hire a fulltime worker, no matter how much work there is to be done.
Phred
If the business onwer can't afford to do it the price of the job obviously rises. Thus providing the business owner with the money to perform the proper tasks. Its a delicate balance, because the obvious windfall is the decrease in the value of the dollar, over millions of hours of work and the rising costs of doing business. The whoile econmy would be impacted, that is why the experts figure out where that precarious spot is that allows both sides to co-exist without destroying the entier house of cards.
Also it is a poorly run business if they have not sufficient funds to finish the job.I don't see how your point is relevant.
-------------------- Asshole
Edited by nakors_junk_bag (09/18/07 03:47 PM)
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7424458 - 09/18/07 04:26 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
If the business onwer can't afford to do it the price of the job obviously rises. Thus providing the business owner with the money to perform the proper tasks.
I'm not following this at all. Can you reword it? I've spent three minutes trying to puzzle it out and I can't for the life of me follow your logic.
In almost any business of a certain size, there is always more work that CAN be done -- but only if the price is right.
For example, I was a bartender for several years. There were times when it was almost impossible to keep up with washing the dirty glasses. It would have been of great benefit to be able to hire some kid for X bucks a shift to wash the glasses and free up the bartender to do actual bartending work. Problem was, the law said we couldn't hire someone for X bucks a shift: we could only hire someone for X*1.7 bucks a shift. So the bartenders continued washing glasses -- even though there was no shortage of folks happy to wash glasses for X bucks a shift.
In the same bar, the bartenders doubled as disk jockeys. If we could have hired a disk jockey cheaply enough, we would have. But the benefit from hiring a DJ would maybe have been Y dollars a shift, and we only had 0.5*Y dollars available to work with. So no DJ.
I as a bartender washed glasses, played the music, mixed the drinks and handled the cash register. If there was no such thing as minimum wage, we would have had a separate employee to wash glasses, one to play the music, and one to run the cash. They wouldn't have made a lot of money, but they would have made some and would have received job experience and bartending tips to boot -- setting them up for a higher paying job when they decided to move on.
Instead, there was one employee making quite a bit more than minimum wage (because of all the extra duties he was saddled with) but delivering less than optimal performance in all four areas of responsibility when things got rushed.
Phred
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



Registered: 11/23/04
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Phred]
#7424550 - 09/18/07 04:50 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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you are aware that in a tipped base atmosphere the miimum wage is drastically reduced?
I have spent my entire working life in the restaurant industry, aside fomr the year i laid block. It has almost always fallen to the bartenders to tender some care to the bar ware. If it was needed as much as you say it was, then the price of paying a glass washer would have been incorporated into the price of each and every measuremnet of product.
Thankfully there is a law of competition at play here. I will go to another bar where, the bar tender doesn't need someone to wash his glasses, thus eliminating the added costs.
I guess what I am saying is if there weren't other bars that could make do with less thrn you could charge more, amd pay for the added support.
It still doesn't negate the need to provide those poor menial souls with the unholy plight of swishing soap around in someone's wine glass with a certiam modicum of security against hunger pangs.
It also kind a sounds like your boss was a cheap fuck, and oh yeah, there were other bars that could work under the same parameters you were faced with, thus negating the need to pay extra business costs.
I think I said earlier that labor isn't depenedent the volume of money a job creates, it is entirely dependent on the need to get a job done. If theere was a real need for a hired worker to wash your glasses he would have been hireed regardless of the cost.
-------------------- Asshole
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7424585 - 09/18/07 04:56 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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what happens when the fistful of people who are willing to work for x dollars drives down the value of their labor to such an extent that even tho they work they still hunger? Now you have working people and non working people in the same state. that won't do. Then the people won't work and will be pissed off some asshole is working them for less money than the can survive with.
-------------------- Asshole
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Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
Posts: 2,191
Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7424687 - 09/18/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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is this in the context of a wealthy nation?
pocket money without benefits? someone is being screwed.
Edited by Arp (09/18/07 05:18 PM)
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque



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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: Arp]
#7424755 - 09/18/07 05:22 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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huh? clarify.
-------------------- Asshole
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Arp
roving mycophagist


Registered: 04/20/98
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Loc: in a van by the river
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#7424959 - 09/18/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Just thinking that the wealthiest nation in the world should be able to cough up something better than just $280/week for a working citizen. There must be plenty of wealth that doesn't reach the common person when over here in Scandinavia I get $1400/month just studying. And if I were to do absolutely nothing besides looking for jobs, I would receive $550 + rent.
You guys should be flooded in cash
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allreadyused
The Liquor



Registered: 09/10/07
Posts: 480
Loc: Trailer Park, Nova Scotia
Last seen: 8 years, 23 days
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Re: Do you think there should be a minimum wage? [Re: wilshire]
#7426347 - 09/18/07 11:07 PM (16 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said:
do you mean the majority of jobs that require no specialized skills, training, knowledge, or education?
most of the people i know that work in skilled trades, and I'm talking blue collar here - no college, just working hard and paying attention - make at least $20 an hour.
For the most part yes. There are however very few good "blue collar" in my area. Anything approaching $20 an hour is extremely rare.
-------------------- Everything I say is for entertainment. Fuck the ASPCA
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